Quote from: Skarg;996913As the others mentioned, the main new sub-system is control points, which has a bunch of various rules details and options. The grappling system is heavier on the math and details than most other GURPS systems. Things like you've got your foe grabbed for 3 CP on the torso and 5 CP by the neck, with addition, division and rounding involved in giving a CP value for every body part, used for if his actions use those body parts, with penalties to ST and DX based on a fraction of those CP... which is cool once you learn it if you want that level of detail, but it's another level of detail.

It is tied to GURPS: Martial Arts in that it is written as if you already have that book, and it references several elements (e.g. techniques, hit locations and equipment) from that book. You could use much of it without even having Martial Arts, but some bits would be unclear or incomplete. Technical Grappling is so crunchy and detailed though that if someone is wanting to learn and use it, I'd think they would also want Martial Arts, even for a campaign with no martial artists, for the extra hit locations and basic techniques even if no one trains Styles or Techniques.

That sounds cool. I have seen too many systems where it felt like any non-sword play combat mode just led to easier ways to win fights. Ideally a grappling system would be better than sword play in some situations, a wash in others, and worse in others. The idea of control points making things like pin maneuvers not a single roll all or nothing "win", single roll wins are fine, but if it's either no effect or win, it seems to cheapen things. Of course when not used in a D&D-like increasing hit points as you go up levels system it's also going to play better (for D&D with it's abstract hit points, grappling attacks probably really should just do hit points, with arbitration of what going to 0 hit points means if the majority of the attacks are non-lethal).

Frank

Roger Moore had an alternative unarmed combat/grappling rules in Dragon Magazine #83 (How to Finish Fights Faster) that I thought was perfect. It actually scaled well with Oriental Adventure's Martial Arts pretty cleanly.

It handled fist fighting and grappling well. Including WWE type maneuvers etc.

Quote from: Skarg;996903I'd gladly pre-order the second edition!
Are there any rumors about what the author might probably do differently?

Cryptic responses aside:

I'd organize it better. The current book is done like some other GURPS books, in that you have "ALL OF SKILLS," and "ALL TECHNIQUES!" in one place, without much thought as to the core bits that make for basic grappling, and advanced moves that are cool but might see little use. I was able to condense Dungeon Grappling (for 5e) into a two-page (well, one page, but broken into two for clarity in the recent book's layout) quick-start by ruthlessly chopping everything that wasn't basic "grapple, break a grapple, injure the foe" stuff. That's the basics, and that needs to be clear. Right now, the book (TG) is written a bit too much "read the book, then understand the concepts as a whole," which is OK for philosophy but not so good for a reference text, which is what a mechanics-heavy book like this is.

I'd also deal less with floating and constantly variable penalties (the 2 control points is -1 to ST and -1 to DX for ST 10, but adjust the penalty level for DX depending on your ST" is done much, much better with the threshold system I used in Dungeon Grappling. I'd probably give something like three to five levels based on percentage of the target's ST up to 2x the ST value (or maybe 2x Trained ST). Each level would have some penalties associated with it, like the middle one where control is around equal to the foe's ST would be "ST and DX are halved" or something like that. The threshold based system effectively does the "harder to grapple big/strong guys" math for you once, pre-calculated, much like the encumbrance table.

Finally, more examples and how-to included. I've since written some fairly good "what is" and "how to" posts on certain things on my blog that do the system better justice through enhanced clarity.


It's still a good, usable ruleset and the concepts are sound. I've just learned a ton about presentation and writing for brevity and clarity in the last four years.

Quote from: Skarg;996913As the others mentioned, the main new sub-system is control points, which has a bunch of various rules details and options. The grappling system is heavier on the math and details than most other GURPS systems. Things like you've got your foe grabbed for 3 CP on the torso and 5 CP by the neck, with addition, division and rounding involved in giving a CP value for every body part, used for if his actions use those body parts, with penalties to ST and DX based on a fraction of those CP... which is cool once you learn it if you want that level of detail, but it's another level of detail.

Quite, and though most/all of GURPSy details tend to be optional, I didn't give a great feel for what a stripped-down system would look like. Peter Dell'Orto took the core of TG and distilled it into a system he uses with his Dungeon Fantasy campaign, which is relatively rules light. He and I have a fairly strong draft of such a slimmed/improved system kicking around between us, but we keep putting it off.

Quote from: DouglasCole;996956Cryptic responses aside:

I'd organize it better. The current book is done like some other GURPS books, in that you have "ALL OF SKILLS," and "ALL TECHNIQUES!" in one place, without much thought as to the core bits that make for basic grappling, and advanced moves that are cool but might see little use. I was able to condense Dungeon Grappling (for 5e) into a two-page (well, one page, but broken into two for clarity in the recent book's layout) quick-start by ruthlessly chopping everything that wasn't basic "grapple, break a grapple, injure the foe" stuff. That's the basics, and that needs to be clear. Right now, the book (TG) is written a bit too much "read the book, then understand the concepts as a whole," which is OK for philosophy but not so good for a reference text, which is what a mechanics-heavy book like this is.

I'd also deal less with floating and constantly variable penalties (the 2 control points is -1 to ST and -1 to DX for ST 10, but adjust the penalty level for DX depending on your ST" is done much, much better with the threshold system I used in Dungeon Grappling. I'd probably give something like three to five levels based on percentage of the target's ST up to 2x the ST value (or maybe 2x Trained ST). Each level would have some penalties associated with it, like the middle one where control is around equal to the foe's ST would be "ST and DX are halved" or something like that. The threshold based system effectively does the "harder to grapple big/strong guys" math for you once, pre-calculated, much like the encumbrance table.

Finally, more examples and how-to included. I've since written some fairly good "what is" and "how to" posts on certain things on my blog that do the system better justice through enhanced clarity.


It's still a good, usable ruleset and the concepts are sound. I've just learned a ton about presentation and writing for brevity and clarity in the last four years.

For 5e? Is it just me that doesn't know a new GURPS edition is on the horizon, or is that a reference to another game:)?

FWIW, I'm trying to recover my password for e23 as we speak;).

Quote from: DouglasCole;996956Cryptic responses aside: [snip]

Lovely, thank you for taking the time to share that!

Examples do go a long way when learning & confirming involved rules.

Quote from: DouglasCole;996957Quite, and though most/all of GURPSy details tend to be optional, I didn't give a great feel for what a stripped-down system would look like. Peter Dell'Orto took the core of TG and distilled it into a system he uses with his Dungeon Fantasy campaign, which is relatively rules light. He and I have a fairly strong draft of such a slimmed/improved system kicking around between us, but we keep putting it off.

That sounds useful, also as a way to sneak out a way to help learn/see the core rules. Having seen/played that, it'd likely be easier for people to absorb the full Tech Grappling supplement.

Quote from: AsenRG;996976For 5e? Is it just me that doesn't know a new GURPS edition is on the horizon, or is that a reference to another game:)?

No, he means a theoretical reorganization of the Technical Grappling expansion.

Quote from: AsenRG;996976For 5e? Is it just me that doesn't know a new GURPS edition is on the horizon, or is that a reference to another game:)?

FWIW, I'm trying to recover my password for e23 as we speak;).

GURPS Martial Arts: Technical Grappling was published in 2015 by SJG; it requires and builds off of GURPS Martial Arts, modifying the GURPS and GURPS Martial Arts rules to accommodate the control point mechanic where necessary. There are no plans for a second edition; I was just saying what I would do if I could write one.

Dungeon Grappling was published in late 2016 by Gaming Ballistic, LLC and provides a refined version of the control point mechanic for 5e, the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, and Swords and Wizardry. It's a stand-alone volume.

Quote from: DouglasCole;997054Dungeon Grappling was published in late 2016 by Gaming Ballistic, LLC and provides a refined version of the control point mechanic for 5e, the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, and Swords and Wizardry. It's a stand-alone volume.

5e?  D&D?

Quote from: tenbones;996266As a former wrestler - skill is far more important than Strength, balance, leverage and understanding how to apply that to hold someone is more of a skill than brute power.

As a kid, I remember watching Kung Fu (10 stone wet) beating Giant Haystacks (48 stone) on the telly, using skill against strength/power/size.

Quote from: Headless;9970715e?  D&D?

Yes. Designed as a viable option for DnD games

Quote from: DouglasCole;997089Yes. Designed as a viable option for DnD games

I have no interest in 5e anymore (having tried it), but I am now really curious how that works.

Quote from: soltakss;997088As a kid, I remember watching Kung Fu (10 stone wet) beating Giant Haystacks (48 stone) on the telly, using skill against strength/power/size.

The script gave him the skill.

Are there any rules that include the use of weapons (knives, chains, possibly others) in grappling? Not just in the "I grapple and then I strike with the weapon" but in actually using the weapon in the grapple? Choking with a chain (or a baton) or holding a knife to a throat are really obvious uses, but there are others.

Quote from: HappyDaze;997225Are there any rules that include the use of weapons (knives, chains, possibly others) in grappling? Not just in the "I grapple and then I strike with the weapon" but in actually using the weapon in the grapple? Choking with a chain (or a baton) or holding a knife to a throat are really obvious uses, but there are others.

The "core" GURPS: Martial Arts already has such:).

Quote from: HappyDaze;997225Are there any rules that include the use of weapons (knives, chains, possibly others) in grappling? Not just in the "I grapple and then I strike with the weapon" but in actually using the weapon in the grapple? Choking with a chain (or a baton) or holding a knife to a throat are really obvious uses, but there are others.

Yah - Dungeon Grappling (S&W/OSR, Pathfinder, 5e) and Technical Grappling (GURPS) both purposefully enable grappling with weapons.