Quote from: tenbones;996266As a former wrestler - skill is far more important than Strength, balance, leverage and understanding how to apply that to hold someone is more of a skill than brute power.

I agree. However, I remember sparring with a judoka and asking him "If you are always using your opponent's strength against him, how come you can bench-press a Chevy?"

Quote from: tenbones;996052I'm not familiar with it. I have zero doubt that GURPS probably takes it crazy technical levels to give it that nod to "realism". I could never get my players to try it.

It models pretty much what you described when you talked about skill versus strength. The grappling rules in the Basic Set don't seem crazy technical to me (...) but do explicitly involve choosing what to do, and using appropriate values (ST, DX, skills, weight, current situation) of both figures to see whether it succeeds or not.

(To me, it seems like actually representing things at some level is what's needed to not get results that don't match the situation. e.g. if you use ST only, then Hulk always squishes Spiderman. If you use Fighting but have not separate Wrestling/Judo/etc skills, then there is no way to have a skilled wrestler who isn't a skilled fighter nor vice versa.)

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;996529I agree. However, I remember sparring with a judoka and asking him "If you are always using your opponent's strength against him, how come you can bench-press a Chevy?"

Well sure! A strong judoka *will* hurt you with a strong throw, once they've gotten you into position.

My first experience with a high-level judoka was a 5'4" guy that weighed about 110lbs when I weighed 228lbs and was in my wrestling prime and he tossed me with such ridiculous (Large Outer Wheel throw) ease I don't think I ever felt so physically humbled. Had he been physically stronger and went full out - I'd likely have been KTFO'd. Hell, I think he could have done that anyhow and he only went easy on me so he didn't hurt me.

In terms of superheroes, this is precisely why characters with vast super-strength AND extremely highly skill levels in fighting, would be ridiculously dangerous. FASERIP as it pertains to Marvel handles this very well. It's also why if you scaled DC characters into Marvel scale (Post Crisis era) why Superman would get his ass kicked by Thor.

Quote from: Skarg;996538(To me, it seems like actually representing things at some level is what's needed to not get results that don't match the situation. e.g. if you use ST only, then Hulk always squishes Spiderman. If you use Fighting but have not separate Wrestling/Judo/etc skills, then there is no way to have a skilled wrestler who isn't a skilled fighter nor vice versa.)

That's correct!

As a small addendum - in FASERIP if you have the Wrestling Skill or Martial Arts C your attempts at Grappling (and in some cases doing damage) raises your CS by +2 to Grapple checks with Wrestling and +1 CS to Grapple AND Damage with Martial Arts C. If you have Martial Arts B, you get +1 CS to Wrestling Grapple checks AND damage. This is cumulative. So FASERIP does take into account specific skills.

Quote from: tenbones;996052I'm not familiar with it. I have zero doubt that GURPS probably takes it crazy technical levels to give it that nod to "realism". I could never get my players to try it.

Well, too bad. I am considering it, but still wonder how much improvement it is...

Quote from: Aglondir;996110FASERIP! Why didn't I think of that?

Escapes:

Looks like it would be fast in play and not too hard to remember.

Indeed, it is a good example - though for my money, add the houserule Tenbones mentioned. Makes total sense, unless you want Hulk to be a more skilled grappler than Batman.

Quote from: Dumarest;996112Missed your post...yeah, Marvel Super Heroes alias FASERIP was good for simple wrasslin' and grapplin' rules. Made playing guys like the Thing a hoot and a half. I'd leave it a Strength check, personally, since I just don't see Captain America's fighting skills helping him much once Ben Grimm has his mighty meathooks on Cap.

I can see it, though. I have been grabbed by younger, fitter people that are literally twice as strong as me, and freed myself without too much effort.

Quote from: tenbones;996266In play - it is too powerful for bricks and makes Strength a bit of an uberstat. Someone like Spiderman has very little chance of ever getting away from someone with high super-strength (edit: actually he has the same chance. He has a greater chance of getting hit . As a general rule in Marvel most people with high Strength tend to not have equally high Fighting. Someone like the Hulk whose fighting, for example, is not very high (relatively) has much easier chance of simply grabbing and crushing the crap out of people that are highly mobile using a Strength-based Grappling check - like Spiderman, Cap etc. than simply punching them, which is a Fighting check. This does not make much sense especially on characters that have superior fighting skills.

As a former wrestler - skill is far more important than Strength, balance, leverage and understanding how to apply that to hold someone is more of a skill than brute power. It's not so much that the Thing *should* not crush Cap or Spidey flat - damage application in FASERIP is simply brute-strength slapped on you automatically. Escaping that hold is still a Yellow result. Not many characters have high Fighting stats in Marvel. Those that do - are known for being skilled combatants that are slippery. And someone like the Thing only needs a few solid hits to take someone like Spiderman or Cap out barring a Stun.

yeah yeah I know this is an RPG. So my position developed by simple experimentation. I simply made that one tweak - and sure enough it plays better. The vast majority of character that are hard to hit - remain hard to hit. But if they do get grappled, they still have to make a check to get out and still run the risk of taking a *lot* of damage by dealing with someone with vastly larger strength. In terms of comicbook combat - it works out great for the ebb and flow of of the genre.

It's also more consistent with the established multiple attack check based on Fighting - it lets skilled fighters really emphasize Grappling as a real useful tactic as well as allowing those that are skilled get the hell out.

Edited for clarity

That conforms with my limited experience, too, FWIW;).

Quote from: tenbones;996347In real wrestling? It's for differences in strength in relation to weight. The assumption is the contestants are going to be equal in proportion, but larger guys have an advantage skill for skill vs lighter opponents in that they will be generally stronger. This is fact is not due to skill but simple physics. But since you're not trying to hurt people in wrestling, you *do* use your strength for holds, manipulations and moving your opponent around to get into position which simulates the "damage" or effect aspect of the Grappling mechanics.  Fighting should be used for establishing the grapple condition - everything after that is Strength(Slams, Damage etc.)

In FASERIP (and how I do it) our example assume only one person is trying to grapple - the guy with super-strength. In my rules-change  it's using fighting to get out of a grapple i.e. you're in a bad position. Which matches my contention it's skill not brute power that gets you out of a grapple.

Generally being GOOD at wrestling as a skill is what gets you out of a bad position. Not your strength. Your strength will allow you to hold and crank on your opponent, move them around etc. My change exemplifies that perfectly. Further - Grappling in FASERIP is not just representative of *wrestling* - it's representative of that, plus Grappling as combat.

A strong guy that doesn't know how to grapple will get *choked the fuck out* by someone that does know how to fight and is much smaller. Likewise a smaller guy that knows how to fight with grappling throwing skills- wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, judo, etc. can get out of lesser skilled grappling guys that are vastly stronger.

See UFC for *countless* examples. But some of the best examples of course is Royce Gracie in those early matches against brawlers and other mall-martial artists - and also against other skilled and stronger opponents who also had good grappling skills like Dan Severn.

Also, this:).

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;996529I agree. However, I remember sparring with a judoka and asking him "If you are always using your opponent's strength against him, how come you can bench-press a Chevy?"

Because being skilled and strong never hurts (you)?

Quote from: Skarg;996538It models pretty much what you described when you talked about skill versus strength. The grappling rules in the Basic Set don't seem crazy technical to me (...) but do explicitly involve choosing what to do, and using appropriate values (ST, DX, skills, weight, current situation) of both figures to see whether it succeeds or not.

(To me, it seems like actually representing things at some level is what's needed to not get results that don't match the situation. e.g. if you use ST only, then Hulk always squishes Spiderman. If you use Fighting but have not separate Wrestling/Judo/etc skills, then there is no way to have a skilled wrestler who isn't a skilled fighter nor vice versa.)

Yeah, but I was asking explicitly about the Technical Grappling supplement;). I've read the Basic Set enough times that I can judge it for myself.

Quote from: AsenRG;996640...Yeah, but I was asking explicitly about the Technical Grappling supplement;). I've read the Basic Set enough times that I can judge it for myself.

You asked Tenbones, so I wasn't responding to that.

Personally, I think GURPS Technical Grappling is great. It's exactly the sort of supplement I want for GURPS, as a simulationist/realism-oriented player who likes piles of detailed rules for playing out tactical combat in great detail, and a player who's played GURPS that way for decades and so doesn't mind the complexity and is interested in cherry-picking and inventing various tweaks to the rules. But for players who aren't like that, aren't really interested in grappling rules beyond the pretty good ones in the Basic Set, or are new to GURPS, it's probably way more than they need. It's a 50-page book on grappling and related topics (it also has brawling-type stuff, animal fighting techniques, etc). It re-designs unarmed combat in a way I find even more interesting (and that is more generally applicable) than GURPS Martial Arts. I think that's awesome. People wanting to run a wrestling or brawling or advanced martial arts campaign (or just one with lots of unarmed combat where players enjoy detailed rules for situations) might also really like it. Probably way overkill for many others.

Quote from: Skarg;996662You asked Tenbones, so I wasn't responding to that.

Personally, I think GURPS Technical Grappling is great. It's exactly the sort of supplement I want for GURPS, as a simulationist/realism-oriented player who likes piles of detailed rules for playing out tactical combat in great detail, and a player who's played GURPS that way for decades and so doesn't mind the complexity and is interested in cherry-picking and inventing various tweaks to the rules. But for players who aren't like that, aren't really interested in grappling rules beyond the pretty good ones in the Basic Set, or are new to GURPS, it's probably way more than they need. It's a 50-page book on grappling and related topics (it also has brawling-type stuff, animal fighting techniques, etc). It re-designs unarmed combat in a way I find even more interesting (and that is more generally applicable) than GURPS Martial Arts. I think that's awesome. People wanting to run a wrestling or brawling or advanced martial arts campaign (or just one with lots of unarmed combat where players enjoy detailed rules for situations) might also really like it. Probably way overkill for many others.

Actually,I was asking anyone who has experience with grappling/wrestling and has read it.

Sounds interesting - but how tied is it to GURPS: Martial Arts? Does it introduce something like a separate sub-system, or just new Techniques?

Quote from: Headless;995941I don't have a DMG.  Its in three different spots in the players hand book.  I borrowed a DMG and read most of it.  I found it boring.  And there wasn't anything in it I needed so I didn't buy it.  When I run 5th again I will take another look thanks.

I found the DMG added a lot to 5e, especially clarifications in combat and lots of optional rules you can switch on or off.
5e before the DMG was probably TOO vague and inconsistent it's true.  Especially definitions of combat options, the weird usage of Skill kits (lock licks kits etc), ambushing (passive perception etc).

Quote from: AsenRG;996677Actually,I was asking anyone who has experience with grappling/wrestling and has read it.

Sounds interesting - but how tied is it to GURPS: Martial Arts? Does it introduce something like a separate sub-system, or just new Techniques?

It introduces a new effect resolution mechanic. Instead of "roll to hit, foe defends, if fail, then he's "Grappled" and at -4 to DX," it posits that not all grapples are created equal, and you make a damage roll based on ST and training (oddly enough called Trained ST) that is on the same table as striking, and accumulating control points - the currency of grappling damage - causes your foe to be more and more restrained. That is, builds up penalties to ST and DX.

You can spend control points to cause injury and other stuff.

There are things that a notional second edition of Technical Grappling would probably do differently, but then, the book was written in 2013 and published in 2015, and the author has a bit more experience with organizing books, writing books, and what works for fast play at the table. Or so he says. :-)

Anyone getting any use out of the grapple push combo in 5th?  Basicly you start a grapple, then with your next attack, do a push, push them prone and they're hosed.

Grapple says reduce movement to 0.  You need movement to stand up.  So before you can get up you need to break a grapple.  While prone you are at disadvantage to attack, people beside you are at advantage to hit.  

Its not all that stuff from facerip, or gurps, but its one more level.

Quote from: AsenRG;996677Actually,I was asking anyone who has experience with grappling/wrestling and has read it.

Sounds interesting - but how tied is it to GURPS: Martial Arts? Does it introduce something like a separate sub-system, or just new Techniques?

The basic premise is that you attack normally and instead of doing damage or inflict a condition you build up control points which can be spent on outcomes related to grappling including pinning and doing damage. One of the strengths of the system when multiple people are grappling the use of control points make it clear who has the advantage.

Quote from: DouglasCole;996754... There are things that a notional second edition of Technical Grappling would probably do differently, but then, the book was written in 2013 and published in 2015, and the author has a bit more experience with organizing books, writing books, and what works for fast play at the table. Or so he says. :-)

I'd gladly pre-order the second edition!
Are there any rumors about what the author might probably do differently?

Quote from: AsenRG;996677Sounds interesting - but how tied is it to GURPS: Martial Arts? Does it introduce something like a separate sub-system, or just new Techniques?

As the others mentioned, the main new sub-system is control points, which has a bunch of various rules details and options. The grappling system is heavier on the math and details than most other GURPS systems. Things like you've got your foe grabbed for 3 CP on the torso and 5 CP by the neck, with addition, division and rounding involved in giving a CP value for every body part, used for if his actions use those body parts, with penalties to ST and DX based on a fraction of those CP... which is cool once you learn it if you want that level of detail, but it's another level of detail.

It is tied to GURPS: Martial Arts in that it is written as if you already have that book, and it references several elements (e.g. techniques, hit locations and equipment) from that book. You could use much of it without even having Martial Arts, but some bits would be unclear or incomplete. Technical Grappling is so crunchy and detailed though that if someone is wanting to learn and use it, I'd think they would also want Martial Arts, even for a campaign with no martial artists, for the extra hit locations and basic techniques even if no one trains Styles or Techniques.

Quote from: DouglasCole;996754It introduces a new effect resolution mechanic. Instead of "roll to hit, foe defends, if fail, then he's "Grappled" and at -4 to DX," it posits that not all grapples are created equal, and you make a damage roll based on ST and training (oddly enough called Trained ST) that is on the same table as striking, and accumulating control points - the currency of grappling damage - causes your foe to be more and more restrained. That is, builds up penalties to ST and DX.

You can spend control points to cause injury and other stuff.

There are things that a notional second edition of Technical Grappling would probably do differently, but then, the book was written in 2013 and published in 2015, and the author has a bit more experience with organizing books, writing books, and what works for fast play at the table. Or so he says. :-)

Quote from: estar;996888The basic premise is that you attack normally and instead of doing damage or inflict a condition you build up control points which can be spent on outcomes related to grappling including pinning and doing damage. One of the strengths of the system when multiple people are grappling the use of control points make it clear who has the advantage.

Quote from: Skarg;996913As the others mentioned, the main new sub-system is control points, which has a bunch of various rules details and options. The grappling system is heavier on the math and details than most other GURPS systems. Things like you've got your foe grabbed for 3 CP on the torso and 5 CP by the neck, with addition, division and rounding involved in giving a CP value for every body part, used for if his actions use those body parts, with penalties to ST and DX based on a fraction of those CP... which is cool once you learn it if you want that level of detail, but it's another level of detail.

It is tied to GURPS: Martial Arts in that it is written as if you already have that book, and it references several elements (e.g. techniques, hit locations and equipment) from that book. You could use much of it without even having Martial Arts, but some bits would be unclear or incomplete. Technical Grappling is so crunchy and detailed though that if someone is wanting to learn and use it, I'd think they would also want Martial Arts, even for a campaign with no martial artists, for the extra hit locations and basic techniques even if no one trains Styles or Techniques.

I'm sold:D!
And since I'm not running GURPS at the moment, the good part is that it seems like it can be "exported" to Traveller...

Quote from: Skarg;996903I'd gladly pre-order the second edition!
Are there any rumors about what the author might probably do differently?

I'd like to know that, too;).

I love AD&D 2e table. It was quick and easy and ghettoized the fetishism into something playable so the game won't stall. Thankfully overwhelming is still separate there, too, just in case you merely wanna tip someone over and pin 'em down.

Also, if you really had a 'wrassler' or other martial arts fiend you could just have them relabel the moves on the table "accurately," according to them. It's a "useful" busiwork to get their fixations out and away from ongoing play.

If you have the patience for the granularity there was the Complete Fighters Handbook widgets. But that was for the dedicated few who couldn't accept less.