Quote from: rgrove0172;996082Sorry, havent read through the whole thread but just picked up D&D 5th ed. and was very disappointed in the grappling rules. Essentially all it does is render your opponent immobile. I assume you can still attack him in your turn etc. but it doesnt specifically say so. Kind of left me wondering. Planned to immediately house rule something different but am looking around first. Surely somebody but me thought it sucked as is.

I'm not an expert on 5E, but I think what they are going for is that you need multiple attacks to grapple and do damage on the same turn:

QuoteIf you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.

So you would grapple, then use the other attack to do damage. I think a character without multiple attacks does this:  

Round 1: grapple
Round 2: attack

I always liked the rules for wrasslin' in TSR Marvel Super Heroes.

Quote from: tenbones;995985FASERIP - This is a straight up Strength check. You can grab, hold, full-hold. Each condition has it's own set of conditions. I modify it to be a Fighting check (because it made super-strong characters unstoppable and was "unrealistic" vs. skilled opponents). But you can do *all* the things Grappling is designed to do and it's fun and quick and requires no crazy calculation.
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FASERIP! Why didn't I think of that?

Quote from:  Marvel SHA Grappling Attack is an attack designed to limit the movement abilities of the opponent. A Grappling attack may score a Miss, Partial Hold, or Hold result.

• A Miss indicates the attacker has failed to hold onto the opponent. The attacker may not make other attacks this round.

• A Partial Hold indicates the attacker has grabbed onto an arm, leg, or other part in such a way that will limit actions but not reduce them in full. The attacker may choose exactly what she has grabbed onto. The target may perform any normal actions, but at a -2 CS penalty, and may not move if the attacker's Strength is equal to or greater than the target's. No damage is inflicted in a Partial Hold.

• A Full Hold indicates the attacker has placed the target in a position where the target is fully restrained from action, and may damage the target. The target is considered held until the attacker releases the target or the target escapes. The attacker may perform one action in addition to maintaining the hold, and may inflict up to the Strength level of damage to the target (subject to Body Armor).

Escapes:

QuoteEscaping is an action used by individuals placed in a hold to slip free of the opponent and possibly reverse the damage. A character making an escape may Miss,
Escape, or Reverse the Hold.

• A character scoring a Miss result may make no other action that turn, and is considered held.
• A character scoring an Escape result is free of the hold. The character may move at half speed, but may not perform any other actions.
• A character scoring a Reverse is free of the hold and in a position to do one of the following: Move up to half distance. attempt to Grapple the former attacker, or perform any other action at a -2 CS.

Looks like it would be fast in play and not too hard to remember.

Quote from: tenbones;995985If we're talking just "generic" systems - I suppose it depends on what you want from Grappling.

It depends on what you want to cover. Some systems want verisimilitude (which as a wrestler I'm rarely satisfied with) others try to emulate cinematic grappling (which I prefer). Basically you want to cover: grabbing a person/object, restraining, taking them to the ground, doing damage via holds, and escaping someone trying to grapple you. All of this has to be done within the context of what your combat system pretends to emphasize. PLUS it has to account for the effects upon you for actually grappling (prone, unable to defend yourself, etc).

Especially once you get into the nitty-gritty of round-by-round combat. Systems I felt worked well for me:

1e Oriental Adventures (martial arts) - Very black-belt theater and cinematic. Locks, Throws, Prone fighting, Sticking Touch, all the fun crazy stuff.

FASERIP - This is a straight up Strength check. You can grab, hold, full-hold. Each condition has it's own set of conditions. I modify it to be a Fighting check (because it made super-strong characters unstoppable and was "unrealistic" vs. skilled opponents). But you can do *all* the things Grappling is designed to do and it's fun and quick and requires no crazy calculation.

Savage Worlds - Works pretty similar to FASERIP. Fighting check to land the grapple. Contested check to escape. Grappled has its own set of conditions of do's and don't. Easy peasy.

Cyberpunk 2020 - Contested roll. The premise being that you're using a martial art that emphasizes grappling/throws etc. Otherwise you're going to get KTFO'd. Maneuvers are on a big table. Choose wisely. Very action-cinematic especially if you're using the Pacfic Rim book.

Missed your post...yeah, Marvel Super Heroes alias FASERIP was good for simple wrasslin' and grapplin' rules. Made playing guys like the Thing a hoot and a half. I'd leave it a Strength check, personally, since I just don't see Captain America's fighting skills helping him much once Ben Grimm has his mighty meathooks on Cap.

Quote from: Dumarest;996112Missed your post...yeah, Marvel Super Heroes alias FASERIP was good for simple wrasslin' and grapplin' rules. Made playing guys like the Thing a hoot and a half. I'd leave it a Strength check, personally, since I just don't see Captain America's fighting skills helping him much once Ben Grimm has his mighty meathooks on Cap.

In play - it is too powerful for bricks and makes Strength a bit of an uberstat. Someone like Spiderman has very little chance of ever getting away from someone with high super-strength (edit: actually he has the same chance. He has a greater chance of getting hit . As a general rule in Marvel most people with high Strength tend to not have equally high Fighting. Someone like the Hulk whose fighting, for example, is not very high (relatively) has much easier chance of simply grabbing and crushing the crap out of people that are highly mobile using a Strength-based Grappling check - like Spiderman, Cap etc. than simply punching them, which is a Fighting check. This does not make much sense especially on characters that have superior fighting skills.

As a former wrestler - skill is far more important than Strength, balance, leverage and understanding how to apply that to hold someone is more of a skill than brute power. It's not so much that the Thing *should* not crush Cap or Spidey flat - damage application in FASERIP is simply brute-strength slapped on you automatically. Escaping that hold is still a Yellow result. Not many characters have high Fighting stats in Marvel. Those that do - are known for being skilled combatants that are slippery. And someone like the Thing only needs a few solid hits to take someone like Spiderman or Cap out barring a Stun.

yeah yeah I know this is an RPG. So my position developed by simple experimentation. I simply made that one tweak - and sure enough it plays better. The vast majority of character that are hard to hit - remain hard to hit. But if they do get grappled, they still have to make a check to get out and still run the risk of taking a *lot* of damage by dealing with someone with vastly larger strength. In terms of comicbook combat - it works out great for the ebb and flow of of the genre.

It's also more consistent with the established multiple attack check based on Fighting - it lets skilled fighters really emphasize Grappling as a real useful tactic as well as allowing those that are skilled get the hell out.

Edited for clarity

Quote from: tenbones;996266In play - it is too powerful for bricks and makes Strength a bit of an uberstat. Someone like Spiderman has very little chance of ever getting away from someone with high super-strength (edit: actually he has the same chance. He has a greater chance of getting hit - as most people with high Strength tend to not have equally high Fighting). Someone like the Hulk whose fighting, for example is not very high (appropriately) has much easier chance of simply grabbing and crushing the crap out of people that are highly mobile - like Spiderman, Cap etc. than simply punching them.

As a former wrestler - skill is far more important than Strength, balance, leverage and understanding how to apply that to hold someone is more of a skill than brute power. It's not so much that the Thing *should* not crush Cap or Spidey flat - damage application in FASERIP is simply brute-strength slapped on you automatically. Escaping that hold is still a Yellow result. Not many characters have high Fighting stats in Marvel. Those that do - are known for being skilled combatants that are slippery. And someone like the Thing only needs a few solid hits to take someone like Spiderman or Cap out barring a Stun.

yeah yeah I know this is an RPG. So my position developed by simple experimentation. I simply made that one tweak - and sure enough it plays better. The vast majority of character that are hard to hit - remain hard to hit. But if they do get grappled, they still have to make a check to get out and still run the risk of taking a *lot* of damage by dealing with someone with vastly larger strength. In terms of comicbook combat - it works out great for the ebb and flow of comicbook combat.

It's also more consistent with the established multiple attack check based on Fighting - it lets skilled fighters really emphasize Grappling as a real useful tactic as well as allowing those that are skilled get the hell out.

I guess Spider-Man in your games just stands still and lets himself get grappled. :rolleyes:

Quote from: tenbones;996266As a former wrestler - skill is far more important than Strength, balance, leverage and understanding how to apply that to hold someone is more of a skill than brute power.

So, what are wrestling weight classes for?

Quote from: Dumarest;996307I guess Spider-Man in your games just stands still and lets himself get grappled. :rolleyes:

Not at all. Spidersense= Combat Sense = Fighting rank. Evade ftw. Otherwise Dodge Dodge Dodge. Much easier to Dodge RM Fighting - Hulk, INC Fighting Thing - than Unearthly Strength+ grapple.

That make more sense? heh

Quote from: Ras Algethi;996312So, what are wrestling weight classes for?

In real wrestling? It's for differences in strength in relation to weight. The assumption is the contestants are going to be equal in proportion, but larger guys have an advantage skill for skill vs lighter opponents in that they will be generally stronger. This is fact is not due to skill but simple physics. But since you're not trying to hurt people in wrestling, you *do* use your strength for holds, manipulations and moving your opponent around to get into position which simulates the "damage" or effect aspect of the Grappling mechanics.  Fighting should be used for establishing the grapple condition - everything after that is Strength(Slams, Damage etc.)

In FASERIP (and how I do it) our example assume only one person is trying to grapple - the guy with super-strength. In my rules-change  it's using fighting to get out of a grapple i.e. you're in a bad position. Which matches my contention it's skill not brute power that gets you out of a grapple.

Generally being GOOD at wrestling as a skill is what gets you out of a bad position. Not your strength. Your strength will allow you to hold and crank on your opponent, move them around etc. My change exemplifies that perfectly. Further - Grappling in FASERIP is not just representative of *wrestling* - it's representative of that, plus Grappling as combat.

A strong guy that doesn't know how to grapple will get *choked the fuck out* by someone that does know how to fight and is much smaller. Likewise a smaller guy that knows how to fight with grappling throwing skills- wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, judo, etc. can get out of lesser skilled grappling guys that are vastly stronger.

See UFC for *countless* examples. But some of the best examples of course is Royce Gracie in those early matches against brawlers and other mall-martial artists - and also against other skilled and stronger opponents who also had good grappling skills like Dan Severn.

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