Quote from: Willie the Duck;985932It is interesting that those who got into the game from wargaming don't seem to want to keep that aspect in the game. I suppose for them, if they wanted to do that part of it, they'd be doing a wargame.

Count this former wargamer as someone still quite happy to do wargamey RPG combat, it just has to be in the right venue. I'm more happy now than I was 15 years ago with playing games with more abstract combat systems. But would still be quite happy to whip out the minis and battle mats.

Frank

Quote from: Willie the Duck;985932It is interesting that those who got into the game from wargaming don't seem to want to keep that aspect in the game. I suppose for them, if they wanted to do that part of it, they'd be doing a wargame.

My point was more that people from that background find it difficult or impossible to treat the minis as springboards for imagination and seem stuck in the "minis must be treated as a wargame" mindset.

Not so much.

It's just I don't like the cumbersomeness and the switch in and out of "types" of play.

You also need to learn how to ask the referee questions.  "Is there something I can take cover behind" is a great question, because it gives the referee both an inquiry and a tentative statement of intent.  Much better than "what's in the room."

Of course, that's also why the OD&D one minute combat turn is genius.  Saying "I want to spend this turn getting in range" is a perfectly acceptable statement, and in a minute, especially down in a dungeon, you'll have plenty of time to do it.

Of course, it requires the players to trust the referee and the referee to not be a shitnozzle, but more about that in the upcoming "FKR Manifesto."

95% of my gaming over the years has been without miniatures. I actually prefer to use miniatures or tokens to represent characters and monsters. I think it's easier to do combat that way, regardless of whether it's OD&D or not.

Quote from: ffilz;985830It can be used to give a quick idea of how things are laid out. At this level, it can be used with mostly theater of the mind combat, but we have a rough idea of who is where without asking questions every time someone's turn is up. This is the level I used when I played OD&D face to face. I would lay out a pencil or two on the table (no grid) to show walls and doorways.

Quote from: Tod13;985922The most "tactical" we get with minis is checking range and movement. (And we use hex/grid, so there is no measuring tape involved.) So the minis are 90% there to remind people how many bad guys there are. Minis certainly don't slow down our game, since the time spent physically moving the mini replaces the time spent asking "can I move to be close enough to hit the bad guy".

Quote from: Willie the Duck;985932We use minis (or more often dice) to set up relative position, but grids and tape measures don't come out. S/M/L range for the javelin crew is whatever looks like it would be S/M/L range. As my DM says, "it's not like the initial setup I'm giving you was designed down to 3-4 significant digits, so if you are diligently measuring the distance between you and your enemies in 5' increments when I know you are 'somewhere between 100 and 120 feat apart,' you're inventing false precision."

All of this.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;986010You also need to learn how to ask the referee questions.  "Is there something I can take cover behind" is a great question, because it gives the referee both an inquiry and a tentative statement of intent.  Much better than "what's in the room."

I agree that the former question is better than the latter one. BUT, if I really have no clue what's in the room (e.g. pillars, altar, draperies) I feel disassociated from the scene, like I am listening to a radio play (where the location is vague to non-existent) rather than playing a character in another world.

Quote from: Tod13;986009My point was more that people from that background find it difficult or impossible to treat the minis as springboards for imagination and seem stuck in the "minis must be treated as a wargame" mindset.

That's an interesting idea.

Quote from: Bren;986026I agree that the former question is better than the latter one. BUT, if I really have no clue what's in the room (e.g. pillars, altar, draperies) I feel disassociated from the scene, like I am listening to a radio play (where the location is vague to non-existent) rather than playing a character in another world.

I describe important or very noticeable objects in a room.  But any room might have "miscellaneous scraps of dungeon trash" that a clever player might find useful.  I don't want to have to describe every pebble and broken dagger.

As always, the truth lies somewhere between "LIVE FREE OR DIE" and "Famous Potatoes!"

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;986027I describe important or very noticeable objects in a room.  But any room might have "miscellaneous scraps of dungeon trash" that a clever player might find useful.

Of course and I wouldn't expect (nor as the GM would I describe) every bit of minutia. But you were talking about things large enough for a player to take cover behind. Pebbles, daggers, bits or even small piles of refuse aren't going to provide protection from attacks or concealment.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;984964Honestly, before the internet, I don't think I ever used the label Theater of the Mind for my own style. I guess I just would have called it 'roleplaying' or 'roleplaying focused' or just 'talking it out'....unfortunately once I went online I realized there were endless debates about the various meanings of that as well. Not inventing new jargon is probably the wise.

Same here.

I also think there is a huge difference between using minis, coins, pogs, dice, books, or sketches on a whiteboard/plastic overlay/scrap of paper to give a rough visual and using a grid. I am a wargamer and will say, that using a grid moves it into wargame territory for me, as Tod13 and Willie suggested. It is the grid that ends theater of the mind style combat for me rather than some rough physical representation. Every time someone has suggested we play game X that uses a grid, all I can think is that I already wargame and that scratches that itch for me plenty.

And when we use minis or whatever, most time they never move after the initial set up, once everyone has a rough idea of where everything is at. We might adjust if the combat get convoluted or someone wants another guesstimate on where everybody is at, but that is it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;986027I describe important or very noticeable objects in a room.  But any room might have "miscellaneous scraps of dungeon trash" that a clever player might find useful.  I don't want to have to describe every pebble and broken dagger.

Very much so. Nor, outside, the overall topology of every hillock and copse of trees. Let the players ask if there's a elevation gradient and I'll decide on the fly what I think it is. It could go for or against the party, so it's not coddling them.

QuoteAs always, the truth lies somewhere between "LIVE FREE OR DIE" and "Famous Potatoes!"

The older I get, the more this applies to... well, everything, really... but specifically every aspect of gaming. People have these grand theories and all that online. But I've never seen a real game where the truth isn't more, "whatever, we sit down and play a game."

Quote from: Bren;986030Of course and I wouldn't expect (nor as the GM would I describe) every bit of minutia. But you were talking about things large enough for a player to take cover behind. Pebbles, daggers, bits or even small piles of refuse aren't going to provide protection from attacks or concealment.

Tables, chairs, piles of fallen tile, fallen plaster (OMG, plaster and old buildings...!). Real ruins are hip deep in just random stuff. But beyond that, small alcoves. corners, turns. The point is, once you have the whole environment defined, you are likely to end up with a very squared off building which looks like a modern apartment building (and not nooks or crannies or coat closets unless you specifically think of them) with nothing extraneous in it. That is frankly the unrealistic outcome (well, calling anything unrealistic in a world full of conveniently located dungeons...) because real structures are messy, both architecturally and as in full of junk. People would be able to find cover--at least some of the time. And abstracting that out and/or putting it in when the players ask about it saves you the burden of having to plan out what Room A1's original function was and whether it required any tables or other large furniture, etc. It's a convenience.

Quote from: Bren;985722You don't have (nor does anyone else have) anywhere near enough data to draw that conclusion.

First, what rgrove0172 said:).
Second, everyone of us is talking about his or her experience. I thought that to be obvious.

Quote from: rgrove0172;985760Theres a question mark at the end of the sentence, hence it was more of a question than statement.

It was, and is. Such shortcuts are useful when posting from a phone.
Also, thank you for pointing it out.

Quote from: Tod13;985922I like Big Andy's and Chirine Be Kal's responses on this. But, judging from this thread, I think you're partially right, but I wonder if that's dependent on how the minis are used.

I'm sure it depends on how the minis are used. Minis are, in the end, just a tool, like dice.
It's just that in my experience, they tend to combine poorly with theatre of the mind;).

Quote from: Willie the Duck;986161The point is, once you have the whole environment defined, you are likely to end up with a very squared off building which looks like a modern apartment building (and not nooks or crannies or coat closets unless you specifically think of them) with nothing extraneous in it.

You might. I might not. Here's a location I used for an underground adventure. Nothing square about it.

Quote from: AsenRG;986162Second, everyone of us is talking about his or her experience. I thought that to be obvious.

Well obviously your experience is wrong.

Quote from: Bren;986883You might. I might not. Here's a location I used for an underground adventure. Nothing square about it.

Well good. If you consistently have that available, or can do so on the fly, then this is unnecessary.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;985733Theater of the Mind.

I've reached the point that when the referee gets out the map/grid and figures/counter, I groan.  TFT is okay with one or two PCs but with a large group,  you're done for the night once that damned grid comes out.

I like combat to be PART of the experience, not a totally separate event.

This is why if theres a big battle upcomming and I want to use minis then I try to schedule around it so it is next session. Effectively a separate event and then back to the norm. Rare. But its come up.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;986971Well good. If you consistently have that available, or can do so on the fly, then this is unnecessary.

Back in the day when I did megadungeons rough caverns, oddly shaped rooms, and chambers that didn't fit a square grid were very common. Nowadays I often use maps of actual caves and period floor plans so things are what they are and that usually isn't a square grid.