TheRPGSite

Original post. (http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6946)

Quote from: Joseph GoodmanHi everyone,

It's a new year with some new ideas! I've been thinking over a new approach with the DCC line and wanted to get some feedback. Think for a moment about the RPG market over the last few years:

2001-2004: 80%+ of RPG'ers were playing 3E.
2004-2005: Some gamers fell off between 3E and 3.5, but still 75% playing 3.5.
2005-2007: D20 variants multiply. Mutants & Masterminds, Iron Heroes, Arcana Evolved, Castles & Crusades, Conan, others. Most of the market is playing some version of 3E, but it's no longer all D&D. Various d20 publishers begin to release their own stand-alone RPG's (e.g., Runequest).
2008: Most, but not all, of the RPG market converts to 4E. Market is now split between 4E and many varieties of 3E holdouts. Other systems proliferate, including Hackmaster Basic and the 1E retro-clones. "Old-school" goes mainstream. Goodman Games remains the only "d20 company" still primarily supporting WotC D&D.
2009: Pathfinder releases. Fantasy RPG market is now split between 4E and Pathfinder, with another big chunk split to the other stand-alone RPG's (Castles & Crusades, Runequest, Fantasycraft, upcoming Dragon Age, etc.), and another chunk shopping online in the retro-clone market (which I personally have a fondness for).
2010: What's a module publisher to do?

My primary love remains adventures, but the market is so fragmented that the customers who played DCC modules in 2004 are now playing 6 different systems.

Here's something I've been thinking about. What if a DCC were written in "native 4E" but there were downloads to support other systems? Or...what if the DCC had generic stats ("Orc, 6 hp, axe, chainmail")...and ALL detailed stats were available as a download? So if you play 4E you download the 4E stats PDF...if you play Pathfinder you download the Pathfinder stats PDF...etc.

Tell me what you think. There are certain economics required in publishing modules, but as long as those economics are met by satisfying one or two larger systems, it may be possible to support more than one system.

And as a final side note, tell me what you think of Dungeon Alphabet. This is the book I spent a year working on as a side project, just to stay in touch with my inner grognard. If there's still a market for old-school imagery -- as evidenced by sales on Dungeon Alphabet -- this remains another option for the DCC line or other projects.

Thanks,
Joseph

Now, is it just me or does this seem like backpedaling?

Amusingly, Louis Porter Jr has also weighed in on this. (http://lpjd.blogspot.com/2010/01/sounds-like-4e-gravy-train-has-slowed.html)

Quote from: Louis Porter JrSounds like the 4E gravy train has slowed: Goodman Games may support The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game?
 
I saw this over at Paizo's boards and I have to just say it, this is totally revisionist history BULLSHIT! After telling everyone how good sale are with 4E, you NOW want to support Pathfinder? OK, let's take this one step at a time...

"2001-2004: 80%+ of RPG'ers were playing 3E. "

OK This is true.

"2004-2005: Some gamers fell off between 3E and 3.5, but still 75% playing 3.5. "

OK this is true.

"2005-2007: D20 variants multiply. Mutants & Masterminds, Iron Heroes, Arcana Evolved, Castles & Crusades, Conan, others. Most of the market is playing some version of 3E, but it's no longer all D&D. Various d20 publishers begin to release their own stand-alone RPG's (e.g., Runequest)."

This is true and don't forget you are part of this group who wanted to develop your own D20 variant system. Does Wicked Fantasy Factory, Etherscope, DragonMech or Xcrawl ring a bell?

"2008: Most, but not all, of the RPG market converts to 4E. Market is now split between 4E and many varieties of 3E holdouts. Other systems proliferate, including Hackmaster Basic and the 1E retro-clones. "Old-school" goes mainstream. Goodman Games remains the only "d20 company" still primarily supporting WotC D&D."

I am sorry but WTF?!?!??!?!?! Only "D20 Company" still primarily supporting WotC D&D. Joseph, I respect you as a business man and gamer, but that is complete bullshit and you know it. When you heard about 4E you we down with WOTC quicker than a $2 whore. Looks like some revisionist history bullshit to me.

"2009: Pathfinder releases. Fantasy RPG market is now split between 4E and Pathfinder, with another big chunk split to the other stand-alone RPG's (Castles & Crusades, Runequest, Fantasycraft, upcoming Dragon Age, etc.), and another chunk shopping online in the retro-clone market (which I personally have a fondness for). "

...And with that split, Paizo got support from several third party publishers who saw that Paizo did actually like it customers and third party publishers. What a crazy concept. Anyone willing to sign the 1st GSL? Anyone?

"2010: What's a module publisher to do?"

Well I supported 3.5 and then Paizo and Pathfinder, so I don't have to ask this question. I just put out product.

"My primary love remains adventures, but the market is so fragmented that the customers who played DCC modules in 2004 are now playing 6 different systems."

CRAP!! See this is the part that makes me laugh, those people were playing those systems back then in 2004 too. It is just you were making so much money with 3.5 you didn't care about them. Now that 4E didn't make the splash that you planned on and committed your entire company's future to, you have to do some back pedaling to keep that cashflow going.

"Here's something I've been thinking about. What if a DCC were written in "native 4E" but there were downloads to support other systems? Or...what if the DCC had generic stats ("Orc, 6 hp, axe, chainmail")...and ALL detailed stats were available as a download? So if you play 4E you download the 4E stats PDF...if you play Pathfinder you download the Pathfinder stats PDF...etc. Tell me what you think."

I think you made a mistake by supporting WOTC so early with 4E. I think you went full board with them trying to grab a section of the market. I think your sales were not what you expected, plus WOTC leaving RPGNow and the US recession didn't help Goodman's cashflow. 2010 looks a lot different then you though it would in 2007. I think it is a good thing long term for the industry if Goodman Games supports Paizo and Pathfinder. But don't give me this revisionist history bullshit. You made a business decision, supported someone and it didn't work out as you planned. Now you have changed your mind and want to make some money supporting something else. Stop trying to put a spin doctor on this and just be truthful on this. We have all made mistakes on who or what we supported in business, including me. Build a bridge and get over it. Talk to you later...

He probably found out that being the "top dog" of 4E 3PP, isn't as good as it was during 3E/3.5E.

It seems like a smart move to me to change your approach if your approach isn't working- or if you think another approach might work better for you. that's just good business. It doesn't matter to me,  I don't buy shit besides core rules and used stuff for a dollar on Amazon.
I give this about ten posts before it turns into another pointless vs. 4e argument.
Edit: Also it's hard to parse out the second quote, and I don't know who the dude is or why he's so torqued.

The only thing surprising about this is that it's taken Goodman Games this long to come to this point -- everybody else was there in about 2005 (which is why we saw the multiplication of d20 variants that he mentions). My personal recommendation is that they license OSRIC and go full-bore old-school.

Quote from: Aos;353242It seems like a smart move to me to change your approach if your approach isn't working- or if you think another approach might work better for you. that's just good business. It doesn't matter to me,  I don't buy shit besides core rules and used stuff for a dollar on Amazon.
I give this about ten posts before it turns into another pointless vs. 4e argument.
Edit: Also it's hard to parse out the second quote, and I don't know who the dude is or why he's so torqued.

I am not one to call this backpedaling...I consider it a response to changing market conditions.

Quote from: LordVreeg;353251I am not one to call this backpedaling...I consider it a response to changing market conditions.

That was my take as well.

Once when I was a kid, I brought my leg back as if to kick my sister, but didn't follow through. She fell on the ground an cried bloody murder clutching her gut anyway. The second quote kind of reminds me of that.

If Goodman completely drops 4E, the 4E 3PP market is probably "dead" for the most part.

A month ago or so, Mongoose left the 4E market.

Louis Porter Jr is a joke - Goodman Games aren't.

Tha basic problem is still the pie getting smaller, not the pie getting sliced into more pieces. Nobody will solve the first problem, and small publishers really can't, so they try to hold on to a thin slice, except the thinner slices are also shrinking and by now my metaphor is completely ruined. Dammit. :rant: So, how about another: the waterline has been rising for a few years, and Goodman Games famously declared that they were absolutely fine and breathing as always, actually. Turns out they were still just the tallest guy in the group. :cool:

Quote from: One Horse Town;353259Louis Porter Jr is a joke - Goodman Games aren't.

True.

Yet when the CEO of Goodman Games comes out a few months earlier declaring the economic viability of 4E third party products and citing his own business acumen as a source, then makes the statement that he is taking his company in a new direction, the irony meter does tend to redline hard.

Quote from: jeff37923;353276True.

Yet when the CEO of Goodman Games comes out a few months earlier declaring the economic viability of 4E third party products and citing his own business acumen as a source, then makes the statement that he is taking his company in a new direction, the irony meter does tend to redline hard.

Yep.  Compare with his attitude here (http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6207&p=25324).

Well, there is a difference between what's going on with 4e and with what's going on with Goodman Games' 4e product.

Quote from: Aos;353282Well, there is a difference between what's going on with 4e and with what's going on with Goodman Games' 4e product.

True enough.  4e 3rd-party-publishers don't exactly seem to be thriving as during the d20 craze.

Quote from: ggroy;353239He probably found out that being the "top dog" of 4E 3PP, isn't as good as it was during 3E/3.5E.

Yeah. I think he's going to find that being top dog a game system that's not as popular as 4e even less appealing. The trouble isn't the system, it's the product.

Seanchai

Quote from: T. Foster;353248The only thing surprising about this is that it's taken Goodman Games this long to come to this point -- everybody else was there in about 2005 (which is why we saw the multiplication of d20 variants that he mentions). My personal recommendation is that they license OSRIC and go full-bore old-school.

From what I understand, Goodman Games was only marginally viable as a business in the 3.5 days (Goodman doesn't use the company as his primary source of income). So if he goes full-bore OSRIC, I doubt it will be a viable business at all. Just another vanity publisher. And Goodman has published enough books that I doubt he gets jazzed about seeing his name in print anymore.

Quote from: Zachary The First;353283True enough.  4e 3rd-party-publishers don't exactly seem to be thriving as during the d20 craze.

There is a significant "If it is not Wizards I don't care" attitude among 4e fans. I seen this during conventions. Then on top of that you have a parade of regular releases from Wizards that in this economy means the neutral 4e is going to spend his bucks on.

Finally I don't know know how large Living Forgotten Realms is among the 4e fanbase but in the half dozen cons I been too the Living FR is packed and fairly well organized. That hurts the 3 party market because only official Wizard Supplement are allowed to be used in these games.

I think the only recourse for a 3rd party in regards to 4e is offer something significantly different rather try to support what Wizards doing. Make up your own bag of classes, powers, and monster and support a subgenre that wizards doesn't do well.

Quote from: Zachary The First;353283True enough.  4e 3rd-party-publishers don't exactly seem to be thriving as during the d20 craze.

Well, the D20 craze was over several years ago, and 4E players simply don't need the same old products that people are trying to sell, for the most part.

It also doesn't help if the publishers are all skeptical amateurs (and for the most part, barely talented hacks) and actual 4E players are more experienced and talented at putting together the things they need using tools that come built into a fairly inexpensive support website. The assumption that 3rd party publishers are necessary or wanted at all is simply wrong.

If Goodman creates something that people want, people will buy it. If he creates something of little use, interest, or value, it will not sell. That's how economics works, and the self imposed D20 glut that the worst publishers brought on themselves trained a lot of people not to buy crap from people on the internet.

Quote from: estar;353301There is a significant "If it is not Wizards I don't care" attitude among 4e fans.

There's also a significant "if it's not in the DDI character builder, I don't care" attitude, which cuts off at the knees the 3PP market for player's options splatbooks.

Quote from: estar;353301Finally I don't know know how large Living Forgotten Realms is among the 4e fanbase but in the half dozen cons I been too the Living FR is packed and fairly well organized..

Yes it is.

Definitely, splatbooks are shut down thanks to DDI--my players can barely handle the stuff in the DDI, much less trying to keep track of anything not on the preprinted sheet.

On the other hand, WoTC's modules (KOTS, for example) weren't exactly loaded with awesomeness, and there aren't that many options from WoTC in that regard anyway (just how many level 1-3 modules are there from them?), so there really *should* have been a market there.

Quote from: Doom;353315Definitely, splatbooks are shut down thanks to DDI--my players can barely handle the stuff in the DDI, much less trying to keep track of anything not on the preprinted sheet.

Wonder if something similar would have happen if WotC 3E/3.5E had a functional working character builder back in 2000-2001, which didn't allow any 3PP crunch.

4e is made to cater to the "official" mindset.  It's inevitable then that should they succeed, 3rd party would be more or less dead to it and it's players.

Goodman frankly strikes me as a know it all cack who likes to appeal to invisible and unproven "experience" to make himself sound always right, but then LPJ is also a complete and utter pillock who has repeatedly shown himself to be a blatant plagiarist, relentless bandwagon jumper, and all around massive fucking tool with a severe lack of business ethics and an even bigger lack of his own ideas.

So really, they can both fuck off and die in a hole as far as I'm concerned.

It's this simple: Support Pathfinder, make your own shit or get the fuck out.  I would not mind at all if metric fuckloads of publishers did the last one.

Quote from: Aos;353242It seems like a smart move to me to change your approach if your approach isn't working- or if you think another approach might work better for you. that's just good business.

I agree with this. I mean 4e is no the cash cow for 3rd party publishers that 3.5 was. He backed the wrong horse. It only makes sense to drop back and punt.

Quote from: One Horse Town;353259Louis Porter Jr is a joke - Goodman Games aren't.

Who the fuck is Louis Porter Jr. anyways?

Quote from: Ronin;353366Who the fuck is Louis Porter Jr. anyways?

The scourge of RPGnow.

???
Doesnt really explain much to me. Is he one of the billion halfass d20 publishers that shouldnt have been allowed to clog up the intarweb with shit?

Quote from: Ronin;353366Who the fuck is Louis Porter Jr. anyways?

A pdf publisher who spams a near-endless supply of 2-5 dollar d20 supplements in a variety of product lines like "D20 Shakespeare".  He has a new setting called NeoExodus.  Apparently he's branching into webcomics and gaming music. :rolleyes:

Goodman deserves the slam though, he was making quite a big deal about how successful 4e was going to be and what a forward thinking genius he was to have been such an early adopter.  

Switching just makes sense, if 4E isn't moving product due to DDI and non-interest in 3PP, then shift.  Why the need to proclaim another victory for the famous "Goodman Business Acumen"?

Of course compared to Goodman, LPJ's an ant.  I love the "talk to you later" part.  Porter's one of those vanity publishing, always-self-promoting asshats sounds like.  Never pass up a good chance to create a false equivalency.

Wonder if WotC is happy about 4E 3PPs failing and going the way of the dodo.

Quote from: CRKrueger;353372A pdf publisher who spams a near-endless supply of 2-5 dollar d20 supplements in a variety of product lines like "D20 Shakespeare".  He has a new setting called NeoExodus.  Apparently he's branching into webcomics and gaming music. :rolleyes:

Goodman deserves the slam though, he was making quite a big deal about how successful 4e was going to be and what a forward thinking genius he was to have been such an early adopter.  

Switching just makes sense, if 4E isn't moving product due to DDI and non-interest in 3PP, then shift.  Why the need to proclaim another victory for the famous "Goodman Business Acumen"?

Of course compared to Goodman, LPJ's an ant.  I love the "talk to you later" part.  Porter's one of those vanity publishing, always-self-promoting asshats sounds like.  Never pass up a good chance to create a false equivalency.

I didn't get the impression that he was declaring victory; reading it again it seems like he's testing the waters to see if anyone would buy the type of product he's thinking of releasing.

Quote from: ggroy;353373Wonder if WotC is happy about 4E 3PPs failing and going the way of the dodo.

It would be kind of funny if that was their plan all along. :duh:

Quote from: CRKrueger;353375It would be kind of funny if that was their plan all along. :duh:

WotC's secret plan:

- destroy all competition
- take no prisoners
- show no mercy

:banghead::rotfl:

Quote from: T. Foster;353248The only thing surprising about this is that it's taken Goodman Games this long to come to this point -- everybody else was there in about 2005 (which is why we saw the multiplication of d20 variants that he mentions). My personal recommendation is that they license OSRIC and go full-bore old-school.

LOL! Good one.

Oh wait...you were actually serious... :jaw-dropping:

If I recall correctly, Goodman Games original slogan was "3rd edition rules, 1st edition feel" or something of that nature.

The idea here is to use a current living ruleset that people are actually playing to create modules that are evocative of the adventures of yore.

4E's webtools basically made it an insular creature and any 3pp that supports that system is essentially a barnacle attaching itself to a sperm whale...so supporting that module is a wash (which pains me to say, because I quite enjoy the Punjar modules they produce)

Likewise, supporting OSRIC is a bad idea, because only a fringe group of grumpy old men and retrocult hipsters are playing it.

Goodman Games best bet is to either come up with their own system (not likely as Goodman Games is really only a vanity project for Joseph Goodman by all accounts) or simply jump on the Pathfinder RPG ship.

Quote from: Ronin;353369???
Doesnt really explain much to me. Is he one of the billion halfass d20 publishers that shouldnt have been allowed to clog up the intarweb with shit?

Basically, he's the worst of the worst of the worst of those.  Not only are his products shoddy, ill concieved, derivative tripe, but frequently actively plagiarized or deliberately set up to manipulate the market to pull shoppers away from real products.  

Say you make a "20 Alternate Planes" PDF and throw it up on RPGnow.  The second you hit X number of sales, LPJ slaps together his own "21 Different Dimensions" the next day, usually with design elements deliberately lifted from the existing work (similar cover, typeface, obviously similar rules, etc.), or in a number of cases, stealing whole texts or manipulating the OGL wording to get away with reprinting your own shit under his name.

For a while there, him and Skarka had quite a row over it, and resorted to essentially running amok reselling each other's work in a game of plagiarism chicken, all while slagging each other off in the press as much as possible.  

I believe there's been several attempts to get him removed from RPGnow in the past, but since RPGnow are themselves a bunch of shady curs who basically don't give a fuck what happens on their network, I'm not sure anything ever came of it, and it sure wasn't permanent as he's still listed there.

I vote against the Goodman plan.  I don't want a module in one hand and bunch of download stat sheets in the other.   Instead, publish the mod for whatever system has the most customers and then re-do the mod as a PDF in Old School and whatever other systems you want to support.

BTW, has anyone purchased Dungeon Alphabet?   Any good?

Quote from: Shazbot79;353382If I recall correctly, Goodman Games original slogan was "3rd edition rules, 1st edition feel" or something of that nature.

That was actually the slogan of Necromancer Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancer_Games).

Quote from: Shazbot79;353382Likewise, supporting OSRIC is a bad idea, because only a fringe group of grumpy old men and retrocult hipsters are playing it.

Except that Goodman Games already appears to have experimented in doing that (http://www.goodman-games.com/dcc-modules1e.html).

Quote from: J Arcane;3533254e is made to cater to the "official" mindset.  It's inevitable then that should they succeed, 3rd party would be more or less dead to it and it's players.

Oh it's not the mindset but the supporting software on DDI. Basically any thing Goodman cooks up - any feat, new class feature, monster or trap - can't be entered into the database for the Character Builder or the Adventure Builder. I already have trouble implementing some house rules while keeping these e-tools fully functional, but that's nothing compared to what the situation is like for a 3PP publisher in 4E, and the hassle it generates for DMs using his material.

(Clarification: I'm not saying all 4E customers are DDI long term subscribers. (I, for instance, am not, and all DDI-exclusive material is banned from my 4E table to prevent the DDI/non-DDI rift in my players.) But I guess 90% of 4E DMs have signed up for the DDI for at least one month at one point to get a copy of these e-tools.)

Quote from: J Arcane;3533254e is made to cater to the "official" mindset.  It's inevitable then that should they succeed, 3rd party would be more or less dead to it and it's players.

Which, in retrospect, makes their failed 5000 $ GSL early adopter offer even more dubious than it was already.

Quote from: jeff37923;353389Except that Goodman Games already appears to have experimented in doing that (http://www.goodman-games.com/dcc-modules1e.html).

It doesn't look like the experiment was anything more than throwing out some 1E conversions of existing 3x Goodman modules. And if those modules outsold his 3x stuff, I'm sure Goodman would have switched to making exclusively 1E or OSRIC stuff already.

Look, the economic situation that Goodman outlines in the OP isn't that hard to understand. Goodman wants to remain a viable business - that is make professional quality books at a profit, without worries that a single failure will bankrupt the company.

With the gradual decline and fracturing of the 3x market he decided to jump to 4E, anticipating that his 4E books would sell at or near the volume of his 3x books. Turns out he was wrong.

But that doesn't mean Pathfinder, or OSRIC is his best bet now. It could very well be that neither of those markets is big enough to make them attractive to 3rd party publishers. It's all about economies of scale. A book that is profitable with a 2,000 unit print run may very well be unprofitable with an 800 unit print run.

So those indulging in schadenfraude should stop and consider that maybe it isn't good news that Goodman is getting his 'comeupance'. Maybe this is another sign than the RPG market has declined and fragmented to the point where it simply isn't a viable business anymore even at Goodman's micro-press, barely-break-even scale.

And for those ready to jump in and say they don't give a shit about publishers and don't need the RPG industry, why in fuck are you reading a thread about Goodman Games in the first place if you don't need publishers? Why do you care one way or another what publishers do if you hate them all?

Quote from: ggroy;353373Wonder if WotC is happy about 4E 3PPs failing and going the way of the dodo.

I don't get the sense they really give a rat's ass. GSL said a lot of things but it said one thing loud and clear "Fuck you if you're not WotC".

Quote from: Spinachcat;353384BTW, has anyone purchased Dungeon Alphabet?   Any good?

It's not been released yet. However, having seen the original blog post and Fight On! article, reading Michael Curtis's Stonehell book... yea, it's going to be good.

Quote from: Shazbot79;353382Likewise, supporting OSRIC is a bad idea, because only a fringe group of grumpy old men and retrocult hipsters are playing it.

If you play AD&D 1e, which still seems (anecdotally) to command a good following, then you're playing OSRIC. Vice versa. Supporting OSRIC/1e isn't a bad idea, it's a limited market, but not a bad idea.

Quote from: estar;353301There is a significant "If it is not Wizards I don't care" attitude among 4e fans.

Not that I've seen. Not any more so than with 3e. Or, more accurately, than there was during the crash of the d20 market. Because it was that, shelves and shelves full of crap products, which is, I think, causing folks to shy away from third party publishers.

I think ggroy has the right of it when he says that it's the Character Builder that's causing the problems - third party products can't appear in it and so why bother?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;353456I think ggroy has the right of it when he says that it's the Character Builder that's causing the problems - third party products can't appear in it and so why bother?

Seanchai

Yeah, that's not a bad analysis.  I think it also got off on the wrong foot with the delay/trouble/confusion over the GSL--companies like Paizo and Necromancer didn't get anything going.  And now it looks like perhaps that was for the best.

Of other companies, I know One Bad Egg and Mongoose seem to be done with 4e endeavors.  One Bad Egg had some awesome stuff that I used outside of 4e, even.

Quote from: Chgowiz;353448If you play AD&D 1e, which still seems (anecdotally) to command a good following, then you're playing OSRIC. Vice versa. Supporting OSRIC/1e isn't a bad idea, it's a limited market, but not a bad idea.

I'm not a 1e fan, but I think OSRIC is a great idea. However it's a great idea with a shit name.  The other two big retro clones (S&W+ LL) have evocative names. When I read or hear OSRIC I think of an old fat guy sipping tea by the fire complaining about his gout.

Quote from: Aos;353463I'm not a 1e fan, but I think OSRIC is a great idea. However it's a great idea with a shit name.  The other two big retro clones (S&W+ LL) have evocative names. When I read or hear OSRIC I think of an old fat guy sipping tea by the fire complaining about his gout.

If Goodman Games were to release OSRIC commercially I bet they could work it out in the license to call it "EVOCATIVE NAME, powered by OSRIC" or some such. They would also, presumably, replace at least some of the art (which I like, and think is entirely appropriate for a free/at-cost fan-produced game, but can understand why someone hoping to make actual money might not be thrilled with).

Quote from: Zachary The First;353461I think it also got off on the wrong foot with the delay/trouble/confusion over the GSL--companies like Paizo and Necromancer didn't get anything going.

Paizo never would have. They were just looking for a reason to jump ship and start producing rulebooks. Because that's where the money is at, relatively speaking, anyway.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;353515Paizo never would have. They were just looking for a reason to jump ship and start producing rulebooks. Because that's where the money is at, relatively speaking, anyway.

With the end of their contract to do Dragon and Dungeon magazines, I'm sure they were scrambling around to find something else to do independently.

Quote from: ggroy;353520With the end of their contract to do Dragon and Dungeon magazines, I'm sure they were scrambling around to find something else to do independently.

Scrambling is the correct term here, because the contact did not just end but was prematurely terminated by WotC.

(semi-off-track) On the subject of the collapse of 3rd party d20 products and such; aside form the core books and things like "Manual of the Planes", I'd say the majority of stuff I EVER bought for 3rd edition was from 3rd party folks, mostly because there was a broader range of material that piqued my interest I think. They could be a bit more experimental and "out there" than Wizards of the Corporation could, I guess.

IMHO, YMMV, WTFBBQ

Quote from: jeff37923;353523Scrambling is the correct term here, because the contact did not just end but was prematurely terminated by WotC.

Paizo was also the publisher for Star Wars Insider magazine (issues 62-76), which was yanked in 2004.

By the time Dragon and Dungeon magazine were yanked, they probably had a major "once burned twice shy" mentality and didn't want to go through the same thing again playing in somebody else's sandbox.

Quote from: Werekoala;353525(semi-off-track) On the subject of the collapse of 3rd party d20 products and such; aside form the core books and things like "Manual of the Planes", I'd say the majority of stuff I EVER bought for 3rd edition was from 3rd party folks, mostly because there was a broader range of material that piqued my interest I think. They could be a bit more experimental and "out there" than Wizards of the Corporation could, I guess.

IMHO, YMMV, WTFBBQ

Same here. I bought a few non-core WotC books, but they just didn't measure up to the good 3rd Party Publisher material. There was some crap 3PP products, but the really bad 3PP guys ate it early on in the decade.

The major purveyors of d20 glut crap:  Mongoose, Fast Forward, Fantasy Flight, Alderac, etc ... :rant:

Hey, now, I got a couple of checks from FFG - so, aside from MY stuff you mean. ;)

Present company excepted.

What titles specifically?

I didn't do a whole book, but I had quite a few items in "Traps and Treachery" and "Seafearer's Handbook". A few other things here and there.

Quote from: Doom;353315Definitely, splatbooks are shut down thanks to DDI--my players can barely handle the stuff in the DDI, much less trying to keep track of anything not on the preprinted sheet.

On the other hand, WoTC's modules (KOTS, for example) weren't exactly loaded with awesomeness, and there aren't that many options from WoTC in that regard anyway (just how many level 1-3 modules are there from them?), so there really *should* have been a market there.

Agreed, here....WotC has terrible modules, although they are very clean and concise, but most people I know just parse out the content and take the maps, and I've yet to see anyone run one as-is. Hell, when 4E first came out I ran the Keep on the Shadowfell for two sessions before I realized what a trainwreck it was and quickly wrote up a patch-and-replace scenario to keep my game on track.

I see two big problems with the third party market for 4E, which have already been pointed out:

1. DDI
2. 4E is too easy to use

At least, in my circle of gamers that's what seems to keep 3rd party products from regular use. Without exception every gamer at my table who uses DDI shuns the 3rd party content because it's not easy to squeeze in to the DDI framework (not impossible, just not easy). As a DM, I would argue that it's easier than ever to design and create content in 4E, and that lessens the need for 3rd party products.

Now, that said I think Goodman Games is a victim of a different problem entirely: quality issues. Some of their books for 4E have been great (Blackdirge's Dungeon Denizens, Scythe and Shroud, and the recent Azagar's Book of Rituals are three of my faves that I use and abuse) but the modules they have produced so far have not handled the 4E system well at all; they're a mess, honestly. Their character splatbooks are so useless that even my eladrin-loving player who bought their Eladrin book was unhappy and quickly got rid of it. I picked up their "orcs" book and realized it was just more of the same, regurgitated for a new edition.

In fact, the three books I mentioned above stand out because they do something a bit different; one, Blackdirge always does great monsters, and this book does a good job updating their old classics to 4E. The Azagar book fills a gap that WotC has left open by offering up a load of rituals, and relied on a lot of fan contributions, a smart idea. The Scythe & Shroud book was the first 3rd party book I've seen (and that includes my own) to do a good job on class design for 4E...something that's much tougher to do in 4E than 3rd edition.

I also think Mongoose bailed on 4E for similar reasons, although their repurposing in to their own entity with their own brands was ultimately the main reason for the move, the fact that their efforts at 4E support were so half-hearted to begin with only made matters worse.

Anyway, I think there's a market for 4E 3rd party books out there, but the fan support has been on this rollercoaster before, and they don't trust the sleazy operator behind the controls; we've seen a major glut of garbage in the past, and we've seen a period when real quality started to come out. 3rd party publishers need to face up to the fact that people just aren't all that interested in "shovelware" for RPGs anymore.

EDIT: Agh, got derailed in my train of thought on Goodman's 4E modules, which boils down to this: 4E modules need to work a certain way; any DM for 4E knows how to design and build a good module according to the guidelines and toolkits within the rules themselves. Goodman's modules so far have mostly felt like 3.5 modules with 4E stats crammed in, and indeed the first 6 or so I know Goodman himself was on record as saying were being developed a year before 4E was even out, so that they could get them out the door asap....and it shows. This rush to publication may have generated early sales for them, but the quality subsequently hurt later sales, I suspect. And this is what we're seeing now with his post.

Quote from: camazotz;353556Agreed, here....WotC has terrible modules, although they are very clean and concise, but most people I know just parse out the content and take the maps, but I've yet to see anyone run one as-is.

I ran "Keep on the Shadowfell" as-is from start to finish, when 4E was first released and over the summer of 2008.  It was rather bland, but I was familiarizing myself with the 4E system at the time.

After that, my 4E game was largely a homebrew sandbox.  Didn't see much point in playing subsequent WotC 4E modules as-is.

Quote from: Seanchai;353456Not that I've seen. Not any more so than with 3e. Or, more accurately, than there was during the crash of the d20 market. Because it was that, shelves and shelves full of crap products, which is, I think, causing folks to shy away from third party publishers.

I think ggroy has the right of it when he says that it's the Character Builder that's causing the problems - third party products can't appear in it and so why bother?

Seanchai

Every time I see a new 3rd party product (for OGL or GSL, doesn't matter) I really want to get it, but then I remember the countless, endless, seemingly infinite volumes of stuff I had from 2000-2006 or so that I forever regret buying when I could have invested that money in something meaningful.

One of my favorite 3rd party 4E books (Scythe and Shroud) has four cool classes, but they only appear in my games as NPCs because none of my players are willing to take the time to learn how to make a character without DDI hand-holding them through the process. Well, except for my one luddite player, who loves the 3rd party books he has and uses them regularly.

Quote from: camazotz;353560Every time I see a new 3rd party product (for OGL or GSL, doesn't matter) I really want to get it, but then I remember the countless, endless, seemingly infinite volumes of stuff I had from 2000-2006 or so that I forever regret buying when I could have invested that money in something meaningful.

Only times I picked up any 3PP d20 stuff, was when they were already in the bargain bins.  Several interesting things, such as the Scarred Lands setting books and some 3PP modules.

I got back into rpg gaming, shortly after 3.5E was released.  I wasn't even aware of the d20 glut and crash at the time.  At the time I thought all those d20 books were for other rpg games, and largely passed them over.

EDIT:  When I was just a player initially, I didn't pick up many books other than the 3E player's handbook.  Only started buying more books when I was DMing.  (If I had remained a player, I probably wouldn't have bought anything else).

Quote from: ggroy;353532The major purveyors of d20 glut crap:  Mongoose, Fast Forward, Fantasy Flight, Alderac, etc ... :rant:

I always liked Fantasy Flight Games books.

Fast Forward Entertainment d20 books were the only ones I ever wanted to just set on fire to keep them from infecting everything else. Goddamn, they are craptastic.

Quote from: jeff37923;353570I always liked Fantasy Flight Games books.

The later Fantasy Flight stuff was half decent, such as Midnight.

Quote from: camazotz;353560...and the recent Azagar's Book of Rituals...

It's out? I want to get it.

Quote from: camazotz;353560One of my favorite 3rd party 4E books (Scythe and Shroud) has four cool classes, but they only appear in my games as NPCs because none of my players are willing to take the time to learn how to make a character without DDI hand-holding them through the process.

For me, it isn't time or hand holding, it's math. And it's prints nice little Power cards for me. With all the math pre-done on them.

Seanchai

I never felt the glut directly, probably because I was only buying selectively, and from the better publishers. Not much that I really regretted. I must admit though, I didn't get any use out of Creature Collection and Relics and Rituals - they were fashionable, and very impressive for the "oh, damn, we can actually do that sort of thing now that TSR is gone" factor, but in play, they never became necessary. Now Tome of Horrors, that was a godsend for 3.0.

Today, I stick to the two main old school magazines and the odd supplement on the side for inspiration. I don't really need anything to run my game, but sometimes bits of inspiration are nice to have.

Quote from: J Arcane;353383I believe there's been several attempts to get him removed from RPGnow in the past, but since RPGnow are themselves a bunch of shady curs who basically don't give a fuck what happens on their network, I'm not sure anything ever came of it, and it sure wasn't permanent as he's still listed there.

He was kicked off RPGNow (with much wailing and gnashing of teeth on his part). However he was still on DTRPG (which was a separate company at the time) - when the merger happened, the powers-that-be allowed him to stay as a publisher in the new company.

Quote from: jasonga;353596He was kicked off RPGNow (with much wailing and gnashing of teeth on his part). However he was still on DTRPG (which was a separate company at the time) - when the merger happened, the powers-that-be allowed him to stay as a publisher in the new company.

I found the thread about him getting kicked on RPGnet last night after some digging, I'd post it but it's at home and I'm not.

I wondered why he was back, now I know.  

I'll try and link that later, it winds up being a pretty good summary of the kind of open and blatant crookery he engages in.  He doesn't even try to hide it, he's openly admitted to doing this shit in public in the past, but he knows that none of his victims can afford to sue and wouldn't get much in damages anyway.

It's obscene.

Quote from: J Arcane;3533254e is made to cater to the "official" mindset.  It's inevitable then that should they succeed, 3rd party would be more or less dead to it and it's players.

Goodman frankly strikes me as a know it all cack who likes to appeal to invisible and unproven "experience" to make himself sound always right, but then LPJ is also a complete and utter pillock who has repeatedly shown himself to be a blatant plagiarist, relentless bandwagon jumper, and all around massive fucking tool with a severe lack of business ethics and an even bigger lack of his own ideas.

So really, they can both fuck off and die in a hole as far as I'm concerned.

A blast from the past...

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2009/06/really-funny-comment-on-joe-goodmans.html

Quote from: Joethelawyer;353605A blast from the past...

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2009/06/really-funny-comment-on-joe-goodmans.html

That original Goodman article and subsequent followups, were amusing at the time.

Quote from: Joethelawyer;353605A blast from the past...

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2009/06/really-funny-comment-on-joe-goodmans.html

Thats funny as hell.:)

Mr. Goodman had a poor year online.  Don't forget his lesson in How Not To Respond To A Review (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2009/09/publishers-how-not-to-respond-to-review.html) (direct link here (http://gamecryer.com/2009/09/06/madness-in-london-town/)).

Maybe he's slowly eating crow right now.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Werekoala;353525I'd say the majority of stuff I EVER bought for 3rd edition was from 3rd party folks, mostly because there was a broader range of material that piqued my interest I think.

Me, too.  When I was playing and buying 3e material, I found the 3rd party stuff much more to my taste (mostly Necromancer Games material, but also Green Ronin and Malhavoc).

Quote from: jeff37923;353389That was actually the slogan of Necromancer Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancer_Games).

Yes...okay...Necromancer Games. Same basic mission statement though.

Quote from: jeff37923;353389Except that Goodman Games already appears to have experimented in doing that (http://www.goodman-games.com/dcc-modules1e.html).

Oh? And how did that work out for them?

Actually, asking this is a bit disingenuous as hithertofore Goodman Games has always supported the current D&D edition, so I already KNOW how it worked out for them.

Quote from: Chgowiz;353448If you play AD&D 1e, which still seems (anecdotally) to command a good following, then you're playing OSRIC. Vice versa. Supporting OSRIC/1e isn't a bad idea, it's a limited market, but not a bad idea.

A good following compared to what?

The majority of the gaming public couldn't give a flying monkey turd about 1st edition anymore, other than as a nostalgic memory of years gone by, usually followed by a series of grimaces. (anecdotally)

OSRIC is, on the surface, an attempt to keep AD&D 1st edition alive in a market filled with newer and better games, when all it's really doing is keeping it hooked to machines that do it's breathing for it.

So no, supporting OSRIC isn't a bad idea, if you were publishing PDF's for a tiny circle of cainotophobic shut ins, but if you actually want to make money...which by all accounts Joseph Goodman does, then it would be an awful idea.

Quote from: Shazbot79;353698Oh? And how did that work out for them?

Well, they're continuing to do it.  Goodman entered into a relationship with Black Blade Publishing to convert 3.x DCC modules into 1e versions.  Black Blade has released one, and has more in the pipeline (some delays happened due to Black Blade also picking up the Swords & Wizardry Core line).

Quote from: ggroy;353566Only times I picked up any 3PP d20 stuff, was when they were already in the bargain bins.  Several interesting things, such as the Scarred Lands setting books and some 3PP modules.

Same with me.  I picked up a FEW D20 books at MSRP that weren't WOTC, but very few. And they were mostly L5R D20 books compatible on top of regular D20 Oriental Adventures. But on clearance?  It was like Gurps 3rd sourcebooks on clearance.  Anything cool I got, though to use in something else.

Quote from: ggroy;353611That original Goodman article and subsequent followups, were amusing at the time.

Joe got a six-day ban for posting that link at ENworld today.

Seems Joe Goodman, like god, is not mocked.

Quote from: Hairfoot;353722Joe got a six-day ban for posting that link at ENworld today.

It probably wouldn't matter at this point for Joe, considering he hardly posts on ENworld these days.

Quote from: Hairfoot;353722Joe got a six-day ban for posting that link at ENworld today.

Seems Joe Goodman, like god, is not mocked.

That blog entry is so funny I'm thinking about plagiarizing it for some blowhards I know in other fields.

But to be fair the original post by Goodman was even funnier, even if unintentionally. :D

Quote from: Aos;353463I'm not a 1e fan, but I think OSRIC is a great idea. However it's a great idea with a shit name.  The other two big retro clones (S&W+ LL) have evocative names. When I read or hear OSRIC I think of an old fat guy sipping tea by the fire complaining about his gout.

Ha! That's funny!

I always think of Good King Osric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osric_of_Northumbria), but that's me.

I can't take credit for the name, but really, it doesn't bother me. It's AD&D.

Quote from: Shazbot79;353700A good following compared to what?

The majority of the gaming public couldn't give a flying monkey turd about 1st edition anymore, other than as a nostalgic memory of years gone by, usually followed by a series of grimaces. (anecdotally)

OSRIC is, on the surface, an attempt to keep AD&D 1st edition alive in a market filled with newer and better games, when all it's really doing is keeping it hooked to machines that do it's breathing for it.

So no, supporting OSRIC isn't a bad idea, if you were publishing PDF's for a tiny circle of cainotophobic shut ins, but if you actually want to make money...which by all accounts Joseph Goodman does, then it would be an awful idea.

I'm sorry, but that is just funny as hell! :rotfl:

I'll just have to say that the more people I talk to, the more I hear that they like going back and playing those games, that those books are still in use. I don't think we're going to be millions, it's nice to see the interest is still there. But then, I don't need to be popular, all I need is to make a bit of money and Goodman can certainly do that with little effort and a lot of good customer will. Our money spends just as well as anyone else's.

I'll note that you're not interested, so that's cool.

Quote from: Chgowiz;353754Our money spends just as well as anyone else's.

Depends on what edition.  I think they modified the exchange rates with each version; I remember when it was 200 copper to the gold.  :)

Quote from: StormBringer;353758Depends on what edition.  I think they modified the exchange rates with each version; I remember when it was 200 copper to the gold.  :)

Yea, but you got XP for that money spent. :cool:

Quote from: Chgowiz;353760Yea, but you got XP for that money spent. :cool:

Hells yeah you did.  These kids today don't know the joy of finding a pile of gold you needed to bump your character to the next level.

"Boo YAH!  That 500gp means I am now 11th level!  SUCK IT, BITCHES!!"

Quote from: Chgowiz;353752Ha! That's funny!

I always think of Good King Osric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osric_of_Northumbria), but that's me.

I can't take credit for the name, but really, it doesn't bother me. It's AD&D.

Shhhh...I'm just trolling Kellri, man. Edit, btw I've gotten some good use out of your OPD and OPW templates, thanks.

Quote from: Shazbot79;353700The majority of the gaming public couldn't give a flying monkey turd about 1st edition anymore, other than as a nostalgic memory of years gone by, usually followed by a series of grimaces. (anecdotally)

OSRIC is, on the surface, an attempt to keep AD&D 1st edition alive in a market filled with newer and better games, when all it's really doing is keeping it hooked to machines that do it's breathing for it.

So no, supporting OSRIC isn't a bad idea, if you were publishing PDF's for a tiny circle of cainotophobic shut ins

Funny, that.  Aside from an issue of the size of the player-base, I feel the same way about 3rd edition and some of its hardcore fans.  I've thought about going back and playing 3.x, but every time I'm like, "No, better let it lie."  It's still nostalgic to look at the books, but that's about as far as I get.

Quote from: Aos;353763Shhhh...I'm just trolling Kellri, man. Edit, btw I've gotten some good use out of your OPD and OPW templates, thanks.

Kellri rocks awesome sauce. I had to get his CDD#4 printed/bound so I can carry that thing around. He was supposed to be working on an OSRIC "Unearthed Arcana" like book with mass combat and lots more cool stuff.

And you're welcome! Dave "Sham" deserves the credit for pushing that baby into existence.

Quote from: StormBringer;353762Hells yeah you did.  These kids today don't know the joy of finding a pile of gold you needed to bump your character to the next level.

"Boo YAH!  That 500gp means I am now 11th level!  SUCK IT, BITCHES!!"

500 gp, 11th level? That must have taken you years at that rate of finding treasure. I like your DM! :D

Quote from: Chgowiz;353778500 gp, 11th level? That must have taken you years at that rate of finding treasure. I like your DM! :D

Must be monty haul type munchkin DM.

In one game I played back in the day, we went from level 1 to over 20 in a manner of 12 hours.  (It was a marathon game we played).  The DM was extremely generous with treasure and magic items, which made advancement very fast with treasure for XP.

Quote from: Chgowiz;353778500 gp, 11th level? That must have taken you years at that rate of finding treasure. I like your DM! :D

It was something like all of high school, and my Magic User made it to...  15th level?  Then I blew the resurrect survival roll.

Good times.  :)

Quote from: Chgowiz;353752Ha! That's funny!

I always think of Good King Osric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osric_of_Northumbria), but that's me.

I can't take credit for the name, but really, it doesn't bother me. It's AD&D.

I always think of Osric the Usurper, Max von Sydow's character in the first Conan flick.

Quote from: jrients;353840I always think of Osric the Usurper, Max von Sydow's character in the first Conan flick.

"There comes a time, thief, when the jewels cease to sparkle, when the gold loses its luster, when the throne room becomes a prison, and all that is left is a gamer's love for his RPG".

I always think of Amber, and you should too.

Quote from: camazotz;353556Agreed, here....WotC has terrible modules, although they are very clean and concise, but most people I know just parse out the content and take the maps, and I've yet to see anyone run one as-is. Hell, when 4E first came out I ran the Keep on the Shadowfell for two sessions before I realized what a trainwreck it was and quickly wrote up a patch-and-replace scenario to keep my game on track.

This has been a problem for years though, one of the higher level mod's for 3e had players going to the positive energy plane and didn't happen to mention that they would DIE without something to give them oxygen to breath.

Quote from: camazotz;353556Now, that said I think Goodman Games is a victim of a different problem entirely: quality issues. Some of their books for 4E have been great (Blackdirge's Dungeon Denizens, Scythe and Shroud, and the recent Azagar's Book of Rituals are three of my faves that I use and abuse) but the modules they have produced so far have not handled the 4E system well at all; they're a mess, honestly.

So far pretty much anything I've picked up that Blackdirge has done has impressed me, The adventure in Level Up#2 is amazing, and I'm loveing the Rituals book.  The later Punjar adventures seem to be getting better, but that's reading them as opposed to running them.

As far as the adventure question, depending on how they were done, I would be fine with download stats for monsters, it would let me write on the pages without having to make photocopies of the adventure or permanently deface it.

Quote from: Hairfoot;353722Joe got a six-day ban for posting that link at ENworld today.

Seems Joe Goodman, like god, is not mocked.

Did I?  Hehe. That's pretty funny.  I go there maybe weekly these days to read stuff, and I think I posted 3 times since June.  No biggie.

Quote from: Seanchai;353288Yeah. I think he's going to find that being top dog a game system that's not as popular as 4e even less appealing. The trouble isn't the system, it's the product.

Seanchai

Agreed, but it's not just the system. It's the quality of product. No more "Dumping Ground Classics."

Quote from: Joethelawyer;353898Did I?  Hehe. That's pretty funny.  I go there maybe weekly these days to read stuff, and I think I posted 3 times since June.  No biggie.

Well lets see, lets count the ways your post was incredibly dickish.

1) You knowingly linked to your post on your blog that directly repeated a post that had been deleted previously on EnWorld for inappropriate content (http://www.enworld.org/forum/5049446-post156.html) (and that was the stated purpose of you having been put on that other board - right there in the opening paragraphs - you knew it was inappropriate content for EnWorld, and stated that, and then linked to it anyway);

2) You had previously left EnWorld in a huge huff (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4836936-post11.html), claiming you would never be back again, and essentially giving the finger to all the mods in a rather public way.  And then, you broke your promise with the aforementioned fucked up post.

You're lucky it was not a permaban, and it had nothing at all to do with criticizing Goodman, and everything to do with you behaving like a child.

Quote from: Mistwell;353902Well lets see, lets count the ways your post was incredibly dickish.

1) You knowingly linked to a post on another board that directly repeated a post that had been deleted previously on EnWorld for inappropriate content (http://www.enworld.org/forum/5049446-post156.html) (and that was the stated purpose of it having been put on that other board - right there in the opening paragraphs);

2) You had previously left EnWorld in a huge huff (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4836936-post11.html), claiming you would never be back again, and essentially giving the finger to all the mods in a rather public way.  And then, you broke your promise with the aforementioned fucked up post.

You're lucky it was not a permaban, and it had nothing at all to do with criticizing Goodman, and everything to do with you behaving like a child.

Damn that little kid Joe for pointing out the Emperor has no clothes!

Quote from: Mistwell;353902Well lets see, lets count the ways your post was incredibly dickish.

1) You knowingly linked to your post on your blog that directly repeated a post that had been deleted previously on EnWorld for inappropriate content (http://www.enworld.org/forum/5049446-post156.html) (and that was the stated purpose of you having been put on that other board - right there in the opening paragraphs - you knew it was inappropriate content for EnWorld, and stated that, and then linked to it anyway);

2) You had previously left EnWorld in a huge huff (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4836936-post11.html), claiming you would never be back again, and essentially giving the finger to all the mods in a rather public way.  And then, you broke your promise with the aforementioned fucked up post.

You're lucky it was not a permaban, and it had nothing at all to do with criticizing Goodman, and everything to do with you behaving like a child.

From what your post says now that Gary is dead, EnWorld is clearly a bigger shithole than RPGnet is on its worst day.

If what Joe said was OMG BAAAAD, who the bloody fuck would want to go to such a pussy, syncophantic place?

Goodman is being a little bitch, and as a public (sorta) figure if he can't handle a little bad press or commentary on his stupid he should get into a new industry or something.  I doubt the Bonsai tree community would cause him any butthurt.

I mean, its not like Joe said he fucked his mom in the ass or something.

He took Goodman to task, and Goodman came out like a tool.  Goodman keeps making posts to the internet that make him look even toolier.

What's it that that TV show review site says?

"Spare the snark, spoil the networks"?

Well it applies to hobby gaming too.

Goodman can't take it he should fuck off.  And so should forum sites that want to be shiny happy pussies.

There is a level that is cunty and dickish.  Joe the Lawyer did NOT hit it.  He didn't get close.

If Goodman has a brain he will LEARN from the experience.

I mean, I posted some of my for fun projects here, and while the commentary was in some cases asshole-ish, it gave me something to THINK ABOUT and may lead to me IMPROVING MY WORK.  

Goodman sells his stuff for money.  Something most of us have very little of.  (And thanks to medical bills some of us get to have EVEN LESS.)

He should start learning how to improve his products AND show better PR online instead of crying from his bleeding cunt every time someone says something about his company's products he doesn't like.

ENWorld is clearly enabling him to be a big pussy.

YOU ARE KEEPING GOODMAN FROM BEING A MAN.  

Which means in the LONG RUN you are in fact hurting Goodman, hurting Goodman Games and its employees/freelancers, and the gaming industry as a whole.

If they keep releasing flawed products eventually enough people will stop buying them, and the net effect may mean less sales overall for the company, and game stores which could cause said stores to close meaning less places for people to buy things meaning less money coming into gaming in general.

CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER MASS HYSTERIA!

Quote from: jeff37923;353903Damn that little kid Joe for pointing out the Emperor has no clothes!

:)

All the posts that came before the huge huff are on my blog too. I actually had the bad manners, poor taste, and i guess "dickishness" to ask for an straight-up answer from WOTC's PR guy (before they fired him) on whether or not WOTC would state if they intended on going after the retroclone publishers for copyright infringement.  I didn't think the don't ask don't tell policy was fair.  

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2009/06/question-for-wotcrouse-re-retroclones.html

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2009/06/more-on-my-question-on-wotcs-position.html

Seems the mods and owner of the board didn't like me putting someone from their favorite company on the spot.  

So yeah, I left in a huff.  Go figure.

But now I'm here.  :)

Quote from: Mistwell;353902Well lets see, lets count the ways your post was incredibly dickish.

1) You knowingly linked to your post on your blog that directly repeated a post that had been deleted previously on EnWorld for inappropriate content (http://www.enworld.org/forum/5049446-post156.html) (and that was the stated purpose of you having been put on that other board - right there in the opening paragraphs - you knew it was inappropriate content for EnWorld, and stated that, and then linked to it anyway);

2) You had previously left EnWorld in a huge huff (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4836936-post11.html), claiming you would never be back again, and essentially giving the finger to all the mods in a rather public way.  And then, you broke your promise with the aforementioned fucked up post.

You're lucky it was not a permaban, and it had nothing at all to do with criticizing Goodman, and everything to do with you behaving like a child.

As to #1, you assume I care about their definition of appropriateness.

As to #2, yeah the farewell fuck you was fun.  :)  And I actually broke my promise at least twice before this--once to post my condolences regarding Rouse's getting fired by WOTC, and once to respond in a necromancied thread  where someone gave me board experience points for my comments.

And it actually was about criticizing Goodman and causing some waves.  I kinda like doing that.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;353910I mean, its not like Joe said he fucked his mom in the ass or something.

He took Goodman to task, and Goodman came out like a tool.  Goodman keeps making posts to the internet that make him look even toolier.

Just to make clear...

I would love to take credit for the satirical post but another guy actually wrote it. I saw the brilliance of it, and knew instantly it would be banned from ENWorld due to said billiance and for daring to go against the Established Order, and saved it. I emailed the guy who wrote it and asked permission to post it to my blog. He thanked me for saving it, as he hadn't made a copy for himself and it would have been lost otherwise, and gave me permission.  I gave him the writing credits at the top of the post.

I do take credit for reposting the link to it the other day though. :)  Sometimes people need to be reminded just how tight their asses are.

As to my mother and her ass and my sexual  habits, no comment.

Oh, and I also take credit for defacing this picture of Greg Leeds, President of WOTC, after WOTC pulled the pdf's.

I admit this was completely childish and had me giggling like a 6 yr old the entire time I was doing it.  :)

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2009/04/my-response-to-wotcs-response.html
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_DHFOVZfOB4Y/Sd_4ZesEFEI/AAAAAAAAAA4/SfEk688MqBA/s1600-h/Greg+Leeds2009.jpg)

Quote from: JoethelawyerI actually had the bad manners, poor taste, and i guess "dickishness" to ask for an straight-up answer from WOTC's PR guy (before they fired him) on whether or not WOTC would state if they intended on going after the retroclone publishers for copyright infringement.

The short answer that WOTC seems incapable of admitting is no. That hasn't stopped 3rd-party guys like Goodman from throwing about "concerns" or "possible legal issues" every chance they get though (on ENWorld). Tellingly, he doesn't try to pull that shit elsewhere - where he'll get a fistful of '1st Edition Feel' to set him straight.  

Go ahead, be "dickish". After all, ENWorld is the rpg communities' version of the Fleshlight. If you can't mock juvenile masturbators, who can you mock??

I love it.  Some of you guys are focusing on the content of what Joe linked to, and claiming that is why he was banned, as opposed to the actual stated reason why he was banned.

Joe linked to something not allowed at EnWorld.  It didn't matter WHAT it was that he linked to.  It could have been porn or whatever.  The only relevant fact was it was not allowed, AND HE KNEW, FOR SURE, UP FRONT, THAT IT WAS NOT ALLOWED.  He said that, in the thing he was linking to, that he knew it was not allowed.

That's why he was banned.  Not because it was about Goodman.  Not because it was criticism.  Not any of that bullshit strawman stuff.  He was banned for linking to something he knew damn well was not allowed on that board, because it had been previously deleted (for whatever reason).

And if someone left THIS board in a big huff claiming the mods were all assholes and he would never post again, and then he did in fact post again and did it in a manner that clearly broke the rules (like linking to a post previously deleted), almost everyone here would be calling them to task for it.

Joe, you were being a childish dick, and you know it.  Pretending it was about Goodman rather than you intentionally trying to get around a board rule by linking to a deleted post, after you left in a big whine at the mods, was an immature thing for you to do.

Quote from: Mistwell;353929I love it.  Some of you guys are focusing on the content of what Joe linked to, and claiming that is why he was banned, as opposed to the actual stated reason why he was banned.

You put "actual" and "stated" together there as if the juxtaposition was natural and obvious.

I also linked to a post here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=316146&postcount=1) from an EN thread on retro-clones.

Keeping the ghost of Joe haunting ENworld, just because he makes apposite posts.

Thank god Mistwell is here to be our conscience.  Who knows what sort of painfully accurate piss-takes of pompous industry gurus people would be linking to otherwise.

Hail Kellri, full of win.

Quote from: Mistwell;353929I love it.  Some of you guys are focusing on the content of what Joe linked to, and claiming that is why he was banned, as opposed to the actual stated reason why he was banned.

Joe linked to something not allowed at EnWorld.  It didn't matter WHAT it was that he linked to.  It could have been porn or whatever.  The only relevant fact was it was not allowed, AND HE KNEW, FOR SURE, UP FRONT, THAT IT WAS NOT ALLOWED.  He said that, in the thing he was linking to, that he knew it was not allowed.

That's why he was banned.  Not because it was about Goodman.  Not because it was criticism.  Not any of that bullshit strawman stuff.  He was banned for linking to something he knew damn well was not allowed on that board, because it had been previously deleted (for whatever reason).

And if someone left THIS board in a big huff claiming the mods were all assholes and he would never post again, and then he did in fact post again and did it in a manner that clearly broke the rules (like linking to a post previously deleted), almost everyone here would be calling them to task for it.

Joe, you were being a childish dick, and you know it.  Pretending it was about Goodman rather than you intentionally trying to get around a board rule by linking to a deleted post, after you left in a big whine at the mods, was an immature thing for you to do.

I love it too. What Joe did was a good thing, and the content of what he linked to was relevant to the discussion and thankfully hilarious. I also think that you have entirely too much sand in your vagina.

Don't try to kid anyone, and please don't start with this "strawman" bullshit. We know why he was banned, and not because of "breaking rules", but because the content of his posts raise uncomfortable, but relevant  questions that get some people riled up if asked. But if you want to have some cheese with your whine, go right ahead, because some of us are actually listening.

Quote from: Mistwell;353929And if someone left THIS board in a big huff claiming the mods were all assholes and he would never post again, and then he did in fact post again and did it in a manner that clearly broke the rules (like linking to a post previously deleted), almost everyone here would be calling them to task for it.

Wait....we have rules on this board?

Quote from: Joethelawyer;353952Wait....we have rules on this board?

Of course we do, you stupid fucking prick.  Ask again and I'll kill your dog.

Mistwell, dude, you're the only one who cares why Joe was banned. Giving him a lecture only makes you sound like a tv show high school principal.

Quote from: Mistwell;353929Joe linked to something not allowed at EnWorld.  It didn't matter WHAT it was that he linked to.  It could have been porn or whatever.  The only relevant fact was it was not allowed, AND HE KNEW, FOR SURE, UP FRONT, THAT IT WAS NOT ALLOWED.

Then the value of Joe's post is that it shows what is not allowed on ENWorld: Porn and criticizing Goodman.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;353910Goodman is being a little bitch, and as a public (sorta) figure if he can't handle a little bad press or commentary on his stupid he should get into a new industry or something.  I doubt the Bonsai tree community would cause him any butthurt.

I mean, its not like Joe said he fucked his mom in the ass or something.

He took Goodman to task, and Goodman came out like a tool.  Goodman keeps making posts to the internet that make him look even toolier.

I missed out on seeing this...could you perhaps provide a link to where it was that Joseph Goodman was whining publicly about what Joethelawyer posted?

Quote from: jrients;353931You put "actual" and "stated" together there as if the juxtaposition was natural and obvious.

Semantic argument? Really?

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;353936Don't try to kid anyone, and please don't start with this "strawman" bullshit. We know why he was banned, and not because of "breaking rules", but because the content of his posts raise uncomfortable, but relevant  questions that get some people riled up if asked. But if you want to have some cheese with your whine, go right ahead, because some of us are actually listening.

Oh come on...the guy knowingly and admittedly posted something that clearly violated the site's terms of service...and the reason he was banned was because of some conspiracy to stifle any and all criticism of WotC and their cohorts?

I've got to go with Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor) on this one, folks.

My take on this whole thing is that The RPGSite is like a refugee camp for people chased off other forums by dissenting opinions, many of whom have obviously developed a persecution complex.

But don't take my word for it...why don't we put this to the test? When I have time, I will start two ENworld profiles and post a couple threads on the forums there...one criticizing WotC and 4E, and one criticizing Pathfinder and 3.x...and I will link them on a separate thread here...we'll see which ones the ENworld mods harass more...if at all.

Quote from: Mistwell;353929Joe linked to something not allowed at EnWorld.  It didn't matter WHAT it was that he linked to.  It could have been porn or whatever.  The only relevant fact was it was not allowed, AND HE KNEW, FOR SURE, UP FRONT, THAT IT WAS NOT ALLOWED.

The real point of contention is why Alzrius' original posting (which Joe preserved on his site) got deleted by the mods in the first place - this decision making all subsequent references to it illegal by Enworld's standards. As in: never link to material that the mods deleted from Enworld.

(To be honest, I don't understand the rule itself. It's one thing to remove content from the site itself, another to forbid people linking to preserved content as long as it isn't illegal by US law. But that just as an aside.)

In the case at hand, the deletion seemed a very poor choice, and the moderators now have to keep it up even when it is plain to see that there could have been much better ways of handling this... piece of satire. Which is why, in the thread Joe got banned, I linked this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/254142-actual-interview-wizards-coast-ceo.html). It's a thread in which Joe himself takes the piss of the WotC CEO.

Now in my estimate, the WotC CEO is a more important guy than Goodman. And see what happens. Everyone appreciates the satire, and the mod says he agrees it's funny, even gives Joe "kudos for a good piece of satire" and then locks the thread due to inappropriety.

That, gentlemen, is a way to credit satire when it's done well and at the same time indicate that mocking certain figures in the RPG industry is not welcome since the board serves to make these people as welcome as everyone else (perhaps more).

There's a huge space between "not welcome" and "WE WILL DELETE THIS AND ALL FUTURE REFERENCES TO THIS WILL RECEIVE TEMPORARY BANS!!!". Now, when I pointed that out in the thread we're talking about (the current one, in which Joethelawyer received his 6 day ban), my post got deleted, and the mod issued a public warning to me. I should say, I'm fine with receiving a warning - my memory as to whether arguing with a mod in the open was legit on Enworld was a bit hazy - but simply deleting my whole post reminded me of the less palatable aspects of Enworld moderation.

That said, even such an incident can't blind me to the fact that discussing D&D 4E and WotC on Enworld has become a much, much more constructive affair since the days in which Joe (and shortly later, I) left it. Which is why I (now speaking for myself only) started to post there again.

Let's see...

Joe Goodman tells the world that he knows the RPG market better than anyone and should be regarded as a guru, then turns around and says, "holy fuck!  The RPG market isn't doing what I predicted!  Quick!  Tell me what I should sell!"

Consequently, people laugh loudly at his arrogance and hypocrisy and roll out an entirely apt and hilarious interpretation of his earlier comments, rendered even funnier by the utter failure of reality to live up to his pronouncements.

Then, ENworld, protecting its paying advertisers as hamfistedly as only ENworld can, prohibits and deletes the well-earned mockery.

Then, Shazbot79 rolls up and declares that anyone disrespectin' Goodman has a persecution complex.  Yep.  A shitload of people having a laugh at a tarred and feathered hypocrite screams "persecution complex".  Exactly who is being persecuted?

Also, shazbot has no idea what Occam's Razor dictates.  Everyone is laughing at Goodman, and Shazbot alone is defending him.  Occam's razor says what?

Perhaps an old cards saying will help: there's always a patsy at the poker table. If you've been at the poker table for 30 minutes and you don't know who the patsy is, you're the patsy. Look around. Do you see the patsy?

Quote from: Windjammer;353975discussing D&D 4E and WotC on Enworld has become a much, much more constructive affair since the days in which Joe (and shortly later, I) left it. Which is why I (now speaking for myself only) started to post there again.

I agree.  Hard to say what's motivating the relaxation of the mods, but I notice that talking about Hasbro there became less verboten after the long round of discussion here over ENworld's tendency to regard criticism of Hasbro the same way the Spanish Inquisition regarded criticism of the pope.

Quote from: Hairfoot;353977Then, ENworld, protecting its paying advertisers as hamfistedly as only ENworld can, prohibits and deletes the well-earned mockery.

Innocent until proven guilty, say I. As I say above, I'm wholly unclear as to why they deleted the satire, but given how much else flak Goodman caught on Enworld for his post - and given how basically nothing of that got deleted - I'm not sure I buy your explanation.

Fair enough.  If we want to play follow-the-money, I'd say it's because slapping ENworld members down for criticising non-Hasbro publishers is poor business sense, but booting people for posting outside links with caustic content falls within the limits of board sanitation.

Frankly, even I wouldn't place too much emphasis on my reading of the situation.  I'm hardly the most neutral commentator when it comes to ENworld's protection of publishers, although Occam's razor suggests that corporate reputations provide a bigger payback for the site than the opinions of members.

Quote from: Hairfoot;353977Then, Shazbot79 rolls up and declares that anyone disrespectin' Goodman has a persecution complex.  Yep.  A shitload of people having a laugh at a tarred and feathered hypocrite screams "persecution complex".  Exactly who is being persecuted?

Also, shazbot has no idea what Occam's Razor dictates.  Everyone is laughing at Goodman, and Shazbot alone is defending him.  Occam's razor says what?

You seem to misunderstand my position...

I'm not sticking up for Goodman...my argument has nothing to do with him.

My argument is about the ENworld forums and about why Joethelawyer was banned. My contention is that he was banned for knowingly breaking the community terms of service, rather than simply badmouthing the wrong cat.

The "persecution complex" to which I was referring is aimed at the numerous posters I've seen on this site who accuse communities like RPGNET and ENworld of having biased, one-sided moderation of their forums...to me this reeks of sour grapes mecause the majority opinion of WotC on these boards is seemingly the minority opinion on the aforementioned sites.

Quote from: Shazbot79;353989The "persecution complex" to which I was referring is aimed at the numerous posters I've seen on this site who accuse communities like RPGNET and ENworld of having biased, one-sided moderation of their forums...to me this reeks of sour grapes mecause the majority opinion of WotC on these boards is seemingly the minority opinion on the aforementioned sites.

How would anyone know, if the moderation is one sided?  If you can be bothered to go back over the ENworld criticism threads, you'll see that a lot of people have witnessed the deletion of threads and comments critical of publishers, especially WotC.

If negative commentary is deleted, of course the majority opinion will seem positive, and of course posters whose opinions are forbidden will move to other sites.  That doesn't make the "refugees" irrational.

The majority at ENworld is favourable to Hasbro.  There's no doubt of that.  The question is what the balance would be if critical posts and posters weren't deleted or suspended.

Quote from: Shazbot79The "persecution complex" to which I was referring is aimed at the numerous posters I've seen on this site who accuse communities like RPGNET and ENworld of having biased, one-sided moderation of their forums...to me this reeks of sour grapes mecause the majority opinion of WotC on these boards is seemingly the minority opinion on the aforementioned sites.

That's assuming "the numerous posters" which you refer to are disgruntled ex or present members of those sites. When you see criticism of the Democratic Party on FOX would you assume the commentator is a disgruntled ex-Democrat? If I call Hannah Montana a corporate cocksucking whore does would you assume I'm a disgruntled Disney Channel subscriber? Criticism doesn't always have to be so damn personal. Sometimes, someone or something just screams out to be oiled up, spread-eagled, and fucked right up the ass.

There's sour grapes, but this ain't it. This is called "mocking the mainstream", "slapping the sheep" and "golden showers bring fanboy glowers". It's sometimes hard to tell when people are really laughing AT you...just ask North Korea.

Quote from: Shazbot79;353973Semantic argument? Really?

The stated reason for a banning and the actual reason for a banning don't have to be the same.  Implying that they are the same is just naive.

QuoteI've got to go with Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor) on this one, folks.

Okay, let's use Occam's Razor.  I'll go first.  Joe the Lawyer is a known shit-stirrer.  He stirred the shit.  He got banned.  Asking what he did to stir the shit introduces unnecessary complication to the scenario, therefore he was banned for stirring the shit.  Am I doing this right?

Quote from: Windjammer;353975"WE WILL DELETE THIS AND ALL FUTURE REFERENCES TO THIS WILL RECEIVE TEMPORARY BANS!"

I SO heard this in a Dalek voice.

Quote from: Hairfoot;353990The majority at ENworld is favourable to Hasbro.  There's no doubt of that.  The question is what the balance would be if critical posts and posters weren't deleted or suspended.

Did you notice today where that "I don't like old school" thread was closed, while there are two "I don't like 4E" threads in the past few days which haven't been touched by the mods?

Quote from: Fifth Element;354003Did you notice today where that "I don't like old school" thread was closed, while there are two "I don't like 4E" threads in the past few days which haven't been touched by the mods?

After two pages, and if you check now you'll find the latest 4E criticism thread is shut after 15 posts.  Good thing, too, since it was pointless trolling.

The edition wars have become even more passive aggressive, and if I want to hang around a board whining about ENworld (well, whining more) I'd be at CM.

Good night.

Quote from: Hairfoot;354005After two pages, and if you check now you'll find the latest 4E criticism thread is shut after 15 posts.  Good thing, too, since it was pointless trolling.

True. It was likely an alt username anyway. The first one's still kicking though.

This ain't EN world, refugees.

Quote from: Hairfoot;354005After two pages, and if you check now you'll find the latest 4E criticism thread is shut after 15 posts.  Good thing, too, since it was pointless trolling.

The edition wars have become even more passive aggressive, and if I want to hang around a board whining about ENworld (well, whining more) I'd be at CM.

Good night.

Actually that thread was my fault...as I said before...I'm curious to see whether or not ENWorld mods are actually showing preference to one school of thought over the other...so I posted threads under two different names...one criticizing 4E and one criticizing 3E to see if one of them went by unmolested by the forum constabulary there...

One of them, the anti-4E thread here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/270291-disillusioned-d-d-4th-edition.html) did indeed get shut down after a mere 15 posts.

The other one, criticizing 3E can be found here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/270309-reasons-why-d-d-4th-edition-better-than-3-x.html#post5051014).

I posit that both of them will be shut down by the mods...as neither is particularly meaningful and ENworld seems to want forum discussions to be constructive or whatever. But if the pro 4E one stays open then I guess I owe you folks a beer.

P.S. Neither thread is indicative of my actual position on the whole edition war, I hasten to mention.

Quote from: One Horse Town;354030This ain't EN world, refugees.

Baby, you don't have to live like a refugee.

Quote from: Hairfoot;353990If negative commentary is deleted, of course the majority opinion will seem positive, and of course posters whose opinions are forbidden will move to other sites.  That doesn't make the "refugees" irrational.

The majority at ENworld is favourable to Hasbro.  There's no doubt of that.  The question is what the balance would be if critical posts and posters weren't deleted or suspended.

I imagine that the balance would not shift all that much.

Sure, WotC has made several PR missteps in the last couple of years, but it still seems that only a vocal few are hellbent on taking them to task at every opportunity.

Most of us simply don't care. I know that I don't....and I won't until they start doing something really underhanded and despicable like actively trying to drive competitors out of business or raping kittens.

I think that the heavy handed moderation of the ENworld forums is more a result of the community at large growing tired of the same old retread criticisms rather than a conspiracy to silence the voice of the people.

Quote from: jrients;353992Okay, let's use Occam's Razor.  I'll go first.  Joe the Lawyer is a known shit-stirrer.  He stirred the shit.  He got banned.  Asking what he did to stir the shit introduces unnecessary complication to the scenario, therefore he was banned for stirring the shit.  Am I doing this right?

That would be the simplest explanation, yes.

Guy goes to an internet forum to stir up shit, and then gets banned for stirring up shit.

The more convoluted explanation is that he goes to a forum to stir up shit, and gets banned because his shit stirring was aimed at the wrong guy, whereas if he had stirred shit against anyone else the mods would not have given him the banhammer.

By the way, all this talk of shit stirring is going to make it very difficult for me to enjoy a mocha in the coming days : (

Quote from: FASERIP;353900Agreed, but it's not just the system. It's the quality of product. No more "Dumping Ground Classics."

I don't have any Goodman modules, so I can't say. I think I got their overarching setting, which I found ho-hum. I do like some of their games, however.

Seanchai

Quote from: T. Foster;353248My personal recommendation is that they license OSRIC and go full-bore old-school.

I'm not sure that OSRIC is the best choice, but some form of Old School would be a great way to go for Goodman Games. Perhaps Castles & Crusades would be a good option, since it's sort of a blend of 3E and OS.

Having said all of that, at least Pathfinder is an active 3E-based game.

They've done some stuff with C&C before (http://www.goodman-games.com/castlesandcrusades.html).  That'd be cool.

If Goodman's recent book "The Dungeon Alphabet" is any indication of the direction he's going -- I like it.

That book pushes all my buttons as a GM. It truly felt like 1980 and opening up a TSR hardback.

Quote from: JollyRB;357412If Goodman's recent book "The Dungeon Alphabet" is any indication of the direction he's going -- I like it.

That book pushes all my buttons as a GM. It truly felt like 1980 and opening up a TSR hardback.

that's a nice review...I might pick it up now.

If the rethinking now means Broncosaurus Rex will be statted out for multiple systems instead of just D20 D&D, I am all for it.

I likes me some Dinos, but only found 2 books in the discount/sales here and there.  Dinosaurs that never were, and the Raptor tribe book.

Both were cool.  Some of the DCCs I got on the cheap were kind of cool and with a little work I even switched one over to Tunnels & Trolls and made a boxed set worth of them to fit in my own campaign world no problem.

The bitch with GG is:  Goodman seems easily butthurt.  Its all current print D&D stuff.  

Maybe the kicking he got siding with the wrong horse in the race will change their ways.