TheRPGSite

Weasely fucks.

They replaced all the people in the original promotion material (of which I knew almost all) with non-whites and they/thems that not even their mother knows.

Rest in Pieces Goodman Games you had a good run, from now on if I EVER really, really need any of their shit I'll get it free or not at all.

I'd like to apologize for all the money I've spend on Goodman Games, especially their Kickstarters.

But, to help them meet their new DIE quotas I won't bother unpacking my books after next week's move until I'm ready to start selling things.

For the new pic, Jorphan is the only one with any merit, the rest are grifting of what's between their legs and genital hole preference.  No one buys their content because of them, they buy content from their publisher due to their name and when they get shit from said publisher they don't buy anything from them again.

I knew Goodman Games was headed this way when I saw their BLM worship back in 2020.  That cringing, pathetic "apology" made my gorge rise.

Their products are increasingly not "good", and their boss is most definitely not a "man" anymore. Maybe they ought to rename themselves just "Games".
;)

"A coward dies a thousand times before his death, but the valiant taste of death but once."

Greetings!

Ahh, yes. Goodman Games has finally swallowed the Woke Jello. DEEP.

Pathetic. How sad. Oh well. Let them choke. Let them burn.

GIVE THEM NOTHING.

LET FIRE AND WRATH BE THEIR PORTION.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

A few semi-random thoughts on this:

(1) I've been playing RPGs for nearly five decades and I will say that in my experience a large percentage of players are white males. Over the decades I would guess around half white males, a third female, a sixth other. Early on, in the 1970's, more white males. Today the percentages have shifted somewhat. I've encountered a lot of non-white gamers and non-male gamers as well. In fact, in one of my gaming groups I am the only straight white male at the table.

(2) Looking at the history of the game, from the 1970's to today, like it or not most of the successful RPG writers and designers are white males. (I'm guessing that this is also true for the book industry, movie industry, comic book industry, and quite a few other places one might look.) Argue the reasons for this all you like, but most of the successes fit a narrow demographic of humans. With that in mind, if you want to listen to presentations from successful game designers there will be a disproportional number of presenters from that narrow demographic. Margaret Weiss is an exception. Kelsey Dionne seems to be another. It's hard to come up with a list of successes who aren't white males.

(3) I hate to throw Goodman Games under the bus for this. They are a business and they want to make games and they want to make money. Their mistake was to put 100% white males in their promotional flyer, and in their defense they probably put their most accomplished designers on the top billing. Honestly, if they had put half white males and the other half a blend of other genders and ethnicities probably no one would have noticed. They owned up to their mistake and tried to correct, but instead went too far in the other direction. It's not like they are firing all of their experienced and successful writers and replacing them with a bunch of no-names with no writing credits, but they did replace pictures of those writers on the flyer with a bunch of no-names. The folks at Goodman Games are good people and I think they are trying hard to appeal to all demographics of gamers, not just the woke ones.

Just my two cents.

So are they now Wokeman Games , Goodwoke Games, or GoodXir Games.  Asking for future tagging.

Quote from: finarvyn on December 03, 2023, 09:10:56 AM

(3) I hate to throw Goodman Games under the bus for this. They are a business and they want to make games and they want to make money. Their mistake was to put 100% white males in their promotional flyer, and in their defense they probably put their most accomplished designers on the top billing. Honestly, if they had put half white males and the other half a blend of other genders and ethnicities probably no one would have noticed. They owned up to their mistake and tried to correct, but instead went too far in the other direction. It's not like they are firing all of their experienced and successful writers and replacing them with a bunch of no-names with no writing credits, but they did replace pictures of those writers on the flyer with a bunch of no-names. The folks at Goodman Games are good people and I think they are trying hard to appeal to all demographics of gamers, not just the woke ones.

Just my two cents.

They didn't make a 'mistake' by putting their most well known and accomplished designers in their promo. It is called good business. Back when Michael Jordan got his own line of shoes why didn't other players all throw a tantrum and demand the same? Because they knew Jordan earned the right through his own skills. No one should be made to feel ashamed of achieving something that they have a right to be proud of no matter what they look like or who they like to sleep with. Apologizing for success in your field is pure bullshit and there isn't a way to spin it that makes it anything different.

RIP cowardly Goodman Games

Quote from: finarvyn on December 03, 2023, 09:10:56 AM
A few semi-random thoughts on this:

(1) I've been playing RPGs for nearly five decades and I will say that in my experience a large percentage of players are white males. Over the decades I would guess around half white males, a third female, a sixth other. Early on, in the 1970's, more white males. Today the percentages have shifted somewhat. I've encountered a lot of non-white gamers and non-male gamers as well. In fact, in one of my gaming groups I am the only straight white male at the table.

(2) Looking at the history of the game, from the 1970's to today, like it or not most of the successful RPG writers and designers are white males. (I'm guessing that this is also true for the book industry, movie industry, comic book industry, and quite a few other places one might look.) Argue the reasons for this all you like, but most of the successes fit a narrow demographic of humans. With that in mind, if you want to listen to presentations from successful game designers there will be a disproportional number of presenters from that narrow demographic. Margaret Weiss is an exception. Kelsey Dionne seems to be another. It's hard to come up with a list of successes who aren't white males.

(3) I hate to throw Goodman Games under the bus for this. They are a business and they want to make games and they want to make money. Their mistake was to put 100% white males in their promotional flyer, and in their defense they probably put their most accomplished designers on the top billing. Honestly, if they had put half white males and the other half a blend of other genders and ethnicities probably no one would have noticed. They owned up to their mistake and tried to correct, but instead went too far in the other direction. It's not like they are firing all of their experienced and successful writers and replacing them with a bunch of no-names with no writing credits, but they did replace pictures of those writers on the flyer with a bunch of no-names. The folks at Goodman Games are good people and I think they are trying hard to appeal to all demographics of gamers, not just the woke ones.

Just my two cents.

So when people bitch about how there are "too many Jews" in the news media, Hollywood, and banking industries, they have a valid point.  Not every single person in those industries is a Jew, but the most of the really successful ones are, or at least they are represented way out of proportion to their actual numbers in society.  These industries should appeal to Gentiles more by shoving these successful Jews into the background and spotlighting more Gentiles, even if said Gentiles are less talented/successful/ influential, because that's only good business.  Meritocracy is a bad thing; what counts is ethnic representation.

Well, if that's your view, you're welcome to it.  I always figured that people like that were just envious little pricks who were jealous of other people's intelligence and hard work, and wanted an equal share of the pie without doing anything to earn it.

This is all so transparently self-serving.  Activists are forever demanding that more jobs and money be given to people like them.  Those white guys have to go to make room for more queer BIPOC people or whatever which, not at all coincidentally, is just what the person making this demand is.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 03, 2023, 11:17:59 AM
This is all so transparently self-serving.  Activists are forever demanding that more jobs and money be given to people like them.  Those white guys have to go to make room for more queer BIPOC people or whatever which, not at all coincidentally, is just what the person making this demand is.

Moreover, it isn't like the the creative rpg community is gatekept and closed to certain people. If you want to be known for something then DO something worth being known for. I'm sure if Goodman put up picks of a bunch of random white guys that haven't produced much of anything it wouldn't be just the minority folks saying WTF? Come to think of it, I'm a random white guy why in the hell didn't they feature ME at thing? Oh thats right, I'm just a nobody.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on December 03, 2023, 10:10:16 AM

Quote from: finarvyn on December 03, 2023, 09:10:56 AM

(3) I hate to throw Goodman Games under the bus for this. They are a business and they want to make games and they want to make money. Their mistake was to put 100% white males in their promotional flyer, and in their defense they probably put their most accomplished designers on the top billing. Honestly, if they had put half white males and the other half a blend of other genders and ethnicities probably no one would have noticed. They owned up to their mistake and tried to correct, but instead went too far in the other direction. It's not like they are firing all of their experienced and successful writers and replacing them with a bunch of no-names with no writing credits, but they did replace pictures of those writers on the flyer with a bunch of no-names. The folks at Goodman Games are good people and I think they are trying hard to appeal to all demographics of gamers, not just the woke ones.

Just my two cents.

They didn't make a 'mistake' by putting their most well known and accomplished designers in their promo. It is called good business. Back when Michael Jordan got his own line of shoes why didn't other players all throw a tantrum and demand the same? Because they knew Jordan earned the right through his own skills. No one should be made to feel ashamed of achieving something that they have a right to be proud of no matter what they look like or who they like to sleep with. Apologizing for success in your field is pure bullshit and there isn't a way to spin it that makes it anything different.

RIP cowardly Goodman Games

I'm affraid you're wrong, Goodma'am decided to jump in bed with the woke cult a while back, ergo a promotional material with zero they/thems in combat wheelchairs some mental disability and who're not white IS a mistake.

Now, if we were talking about a company that didn't commit the first mistake (jumping in bed with the lunatics) then you'd be correct, featuring the most accomplished X in your promotional material is the way to go regardles of anything else.

Quote from: finarvyn on December 03, 2023, 09:10:56 AM
Their mistake was to put 100% white males in their promotional flyer

That's not a mistake.  There's nothing wrong with being white.  There's nothing wrong with being a man.  There's nothing wrong with working with others- even other white men- to make cool products.

Don't except their shitty morality for a second.  Make a poster with all white men, that's fucking fine.

Quote from: Venka on December 03, 2023, 03:54:41 PM

Quote from: finarvyn on December 03, 2023, 09:10:56 AM
Their mistake was to put 100% white males in their promotional flyer

That's not a mistake.  There's nothing wrong with being white.  There's nothing wrong with being a man.  There's nothing wrong with working with others- even other white men- to make cool products.

Don't except their shitty morality for a second.  Make a poster with all white men, that's fucking fine.

Well, it was a mistake in the aspect of Goodman failing to suck the buttholes of his SJW overlords...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 03, 2023, 05:46:54 PM

Quote from: Venka on December 03, 2023, 03:54:41 PM

Quote from: finarvyn on December 03, 2023, 09:10:56 AM
Their mistake was to put 100% white males in their promotional flyer

That's not a mistake.  There's nothing wrong with being white.  There's nothing wrong with being a man.  There's nothing wrong with working with others- even other white men- to make cool products.

Don't except their shitty morality for a second.  Make a poster with all white men, that's fucking fine.

Well, it was a mistake in the aspect of Goodman failing to suck the buttholes of his SJW overlords...

The sad thing for Goodman Games is the SJW's hates them, hates their product and would call them Nazi's to their faces.  The SJW's don't have spend, they are poor, they are political, and they are unemployed.  Disney is finding out quite quickly that the more they get down on their knees and suck off SJW's its not even 25 cents a pop its ZERO cents a pop.  Hasbro and Disney are at 50% of their stock value in 5 years, they are doing horrible chasing the Millenial SJW non-existent cash.  Goodman allying itself with SJW's is going to put them in the do not buy camp for a lot of their fans.

I remember buying the DCC Core Rulebook, a long while back; and thinking, "Man, this stuff is awesome!!!  Truly Gonzo RPG material!!!".  I thought often about buying more, but before I finally did; I started hearing about the SJW influence creeping in, and I kept my money in my pocket.

It's sad, because DCC was a noteworthy milestone RPG; in my opinion.  It was a great counter, to the concept of PCs that never died.  In DCC, there would be PILES of dead PCs!!!

Personally, I think DCC is overrated trash, the idea that PCs were completely disposable is completely contrary to the early game and the genre sword & sorcery fiction which was largely made up for bigger than life heroes in long running series. Howard didn't even kill off Kull when he replaced him with the more successful Conan). And after Elric got killed off fairly early, Moorcock kept writing more and more Elric novels set before the last.

But it is very ironic given Goodman Games first product was basically about Confederate solider riding dinosaurs (Broncosaurus Rex)

Thank god I never bought into the DCC line when it was being shilled constantly. What a bozo for bending the knee.

Btw, it's people who look like the ones in the original poster that almost single handedly supported, paid for, and allowed the TTRPG(and geekdom in general) to survive for DECADES. Without the dreaded Cis White Male, nobody even knows what the fuck D&D is in 2023 or most of the cool shit that the Twitter zealots seem dedicated to ruining.

They're cultural carpetbaggers that have infiltrated and infected this amazing hobby. They're Usurpers that need to be Expelled.

Some people are in denial about (or shilling for) Goodman Games at this point.

This incident is hardly the only one. There's BLM-supporting poster, change of pronouns to they/them in the DCC RPG book, and now this absurd apology for being white. As Ian Fleming put it: once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action. Goodman Games is not just kowtowing to the woke, it is part of the woke. It is responsive to woke criticism because wokeness is its credo.

I own a lot of Goodman Games product. Several copies of the DCC RPG rulebook, all the settings, virtually all modules, more dice sets than any one player could justify, and a repeat kickstarter backer. But not another penny more.

Has anyone considered that Goodman and all the others on the first flyer didn't want to attend and when the complaints started they had the perfect excuse to drop out. ;D

Quote from: Coffeecup on December 04, 2023, 12:21:57 AM
Has anyone considered that Goodman and all the others on the first flyer didn't want to attend and when the complaints started they had the perfect excuse to drop out. ;D

The panel is still going with original members, they didn't drop out.  It's likely they added the extra people in.  Not sure why Jorhphdan got into the disabled/broken toys panel.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on December 04, 2023, 01:27:17 AM

Quote from: Coffeecup on December 04, 2023, 12:21:57 AM
Has anyone considered that Goodman and all the others on the first flyer didn't want to attend and when the complaints started they had the perfect excuse to drop out. ;D

The panel is still going with original members, they didn't drop out.  It's likely they added the extra people in.  Not sure why Jorhphdan got into the disabled/broken toys panel.

Looks like they picked out some random crew for their "diverse" qualites to put on the flyer, regardless of whether they were actually going to talk at a panel or not.

IT'S GOODMA'AM! YOU SHITLORDS!

So if the panel didn't change maybe they just put these people on the front but the original panel will still do the talking.

An alternate view from Clownfish TV......

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 03, 2023, 07:48:54 PM
It's sad, because DCC was a noteworthy milestone RPG; in my opinion.  It was a great counter, to the concept of PCs that never died.  In DCC, there would be PILES of dead PCs!!!

Not a new concept:
The Fantasy Trip (1977)

Quote from: dungeonmonkey on December 03, 2023, 09:51:17 PM
I own a lot of Goodman Games product. Several copies of the DCC RPG rulebook, all the settings, virtually all modules, more dice sets than any one player could justify, and a repeat kickstarter backer. But not another penny more.

This...I've done all the MA KS, the MCC one, and most recently Dying Earth. Plus several BoH.  They might come off the shelf for play again someday (although thoughts of DCC in January are now shelved) but money outside of maybe used here and there? Forget it.

Quote from: Coffeecup on December 04, 2023, 12:21:57 AM
Has anyone considered that Goodman and all the others on the first flyer didn't want to attend and when the complaints started they had the perfect excuse to drop out. ;D

Given his own company is sponsoring it I doubt for Goodman that is the case.

As for others, why say 'yes' to start?

Was thinking of doing a DCC campaign when I get my copy of Dark Tower next year.  But I can just as easily run that in Swords & Wizardry or BECMI.

Quote from: I on December 03, 2023, 01:24:47 AM
I knew Goodman Games was headed this way when I saw their BLM worship back in 2020.  That cringing, pathetic "apology" made my gorge rise.

There were warning signs well before that but 2020 seems to have been when things started the real fall.

Goodman Games needs to apologize for phoning it in on the Dying Earth boxed set first; I got cheated.

Quote from: Brad on December 05, 2023, 09:23:47 AM
Goodman Games needs to apologize for phoning it in on the Dying Earth boxed set first; I got cheated.

I haven't the heart to open it up frankly.  Its on the shelf, wrapped.

Quote from: Brad on December 05, 2023, 09:23:47 AM
Goodman Games needs to apologize for phoning it in on the Dying Earth boxed set first; I got cheated.

Mine's still unopened like the other guy. What's the beef?

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 05, 2023, 09:48:27 AM

Quote from: Brad on December 05, 2023, 09:23:47 AM
Goodman Games needs to apologize for phoning it in on the Dying Earth boxed set first; I got cheated.

Mine's still unopened like the other guy. What's the beef?

I got pissed of after hearing on the therpgpundits channel one of his friends were hired to create it, he did it, then they wanted it to be DCC compatible after he built it out so he left.

What was it supposed to be originally? 5e?

Forgive my ignorance, but did they actually do the thing they're accused of doing in the topic and the thread?  The video doesn't make a straight-faced claim that they did.  It seems to me they have:

A) Been woke for a long while before this,

B) Produced an alternative poster in an effort to cave to the mob, and

C) Somehow caused cancer?

I'm not sure there's any 'there' here guys.  Goodman is woke, water is wet, film at 11?

Can anyone point to an apology for being white?

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 11:50:25 AM
Forgive my ignorance, but did they actually do the thing they're accused of doing in the topic and the thread?  The video doesn't make a straight-faced claim that they did.  It seems to me they have:

A) Been woke for a long while before this,

B) Produced an alternative poster in an effort to cave to the mob, and

C) Somehow caused cancer?

I'm not sure there's any 'there' here guys.  Goodman is woke, water is wet, film at 11?

Can anyone point to an apology for being white?

Yeah, they issued a statement apologizing for not being inclusive in the original poster and thanking their critics for pointing this out and raising their awareness.  Several of the youtube videos, including this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtyQZjYcyKk
have their statement.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 11:50:25 AM
Forgive my ignorance, but did they actually do the thing they're accused of doing in the topic and the thread?  The video doesn't make a straight-faced claim that they did.

No, they did not type the exact phrase "We apologize for being white."

They issued a blanket apology for not being "inclusive and diverse" when their poster for their event was all white dudes.
Which is pretty much apologizing for being white.

Quote from: Persimmon on December 05, 2023, 12:47:48 PM
Yeah, they issued a statement apologizing for not being inclusive in the original poster and thanking their critics for pointing this out and raising their awareness.  Several of the youtube videos, including this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtyQZjYcyKk
have their statement.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 05, 2023, 01:07:09 PM
No, they did not type the exact phrase "We apologize for being white."

They issued a blanket apology for not being "inclusive and diverse" when their poster for their event was all white dudes.
Which is pretty much apologizing for being white.

I wasn't clear.

They were ALREADY in this woke posture.  They were already "Red" on The List.

The topic implies they have done something new.  That they have taken a more extreme stance.

Have they?

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 01:09:30 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 05, 2023, 12:47:48 PM
Yeah, they issued a statement apologizing for not being inclusive in the original poster and thanking their critics for pointing this out and raising their awareness.  Several of the youtube videos, including this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtyQZjYcyKk
have their statement.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 05, 2023, 01:07:09 PM
No, they did not type the exact phrase "We apologize for being white."

They issued a blanket apology for not being "inclusive and diverse" when their poster for their event was all white dudes.
Which is pretty much apologizing for being white.

I wasn't clear.

They were ALREADY in this woke posture.  They were already "Red" on The List.

The topic implies they have done something new.  That they have taken a more extreme stance.

Have they?

They haven't started blackwashing thier developers, but I wouldnt be surprised if Joe Goodman starts identifying as a black lesbian or just cuts his dick of for diversity, either or.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 01:09:30 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 05, 2023, 12:47:48 PM
Yeah, they issued a statement apologizing for not being inclusive in the original poster and thanking their critics for pointing this out and raising their awareness.  Several of the youtube videos, including this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtyQZjYcyKk
have their statement.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 05, 2023, 01:07:09 PM
No, they did not type the exact phrase "We apologize for being white."

They issued a blanket apology for not being "inclusive and diverse" when their poster for their event was all white dudes.
Which is pretty much apologizing for being white.

I wasn't clear.

They were ALREADY in this woke posture.  They were already "Red" on The List.

The topic implies they have done something new.  That they have taken a more extreme stance.

Have they?

I don't understand. The topic did not imply anything of the sort. I'm sorry if you got that impression.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 05, 2023, 01:20:09 PM
I don't understand.

I think you do.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 05, 2023, 01:20:09 PM
The topic did not imply anything of the sort.

Yes it did.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 05, 2023, 01:20:09 PM
I'm sorry if you got that impression.

Sure, okay, fine.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 01:54:17 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 05, 2023, 01:20:09 PM
I don't understand.

I think you do.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 05, 2023, 01:20:09 PM
The topic did not imply anything of the sort.

Yes it did.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 05, 2023, 01:20:09 PM
I'm sorry if you got that impression.

Sure, okay, fine.

I'm honestly lost now. Goodman games said some dumb shit, and I made a thread mocking them over it. You seem to have some kind of critique, but I'm not sure what it is.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on December 05, 2023, 01:13:17 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 01:09:30 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 05, 2023, 12:47:48 PM
Yeah, they issued a statement apologizing for not being inclusive in the original poster and thanking their critics for pointing this out and raising their awareness.  Several of the youtube videos, including this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtyQZjYcyKk
have their statement.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 05, 2023, 01:07:09 PM
No, they did not type the exact phrase "We apologize for being white."

They issued a blanket apology for not being "inclusive and diverse" when their poster for their event was all white dudes.
Which is pretty much apologizing for being white.

I wasn't clear.

They were ALREADY in this woke posture.  They were already "Red" on The List.

The topic implies they have done something new.  That they have taken a more extreme stance.

Have they?

They haven't started blackwashing thier developers, but I wouldnt be surprised if Joe Goodman starts identifying as a black lesbian or just cuts his dick of for diversity, either or.

That was always one of my jokes... that if ever confronted by these yahoos I'd reply that I identify as a black lesbian and how dare they try to misgender and racially erase my identity.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 05, 2023, 03:38:19 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on December 05, 2023, 01:13:17 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 01:09:30 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 05, 2023, 12:47:48 PM
Yeah, they issued a statement apologizing for not being inclusive in the original poster and thanking their critics for pointing this out and raising their awareness.  Several of the youtube videos, including this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtyQZjYcyKk
have their statement.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 05, 2023, 01:07:09 PM
No, they did not type the exact phrase "We apologize for being white."

They issued a blanket apology for not being "inclusive and diverse" when their poster for their event was all white dudes.
Which is pretty much apologizing for being white.

I wasn't clear.

They were ALREADY in this woke posture.  They were already "Red" on The List.

The topic implies they have done something new.  That they have taken a more extreme stance.

Have they?

They haven't started blackwashing thier developers, but I wouldnt be surprised if Joe Goodman starts identifying as a black lesbian or just cuts his dick of for diversity, either or.

That was always one of my jokes... that if ever confronted by these yahoos I'd reply that I identify as a black lesbian and how dare they try to misgender and racially erase my identity.

It is the best way of handling it, just drop the race.  You can literally destroy a fucktard by saying I'm gender fluid and you had better address me as maam, then switch again and keep putting on the charade.  And just fuck with them non-stop.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on December 05, 2023, 03:52:29 PM
It is the best way of handling it, just drop the race.  You can literally destroy a fucktard by saying I'm gender fluid and you had better address me as maam, then switch again and keep putting on the charade.  And just fuck with them non-stop.

Fundamentally, race is a myth anyway.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 05, 2023, 09:48:27 AM

Quote from: Brad on December 05, 2023, 09:23:47 AM
Goodman Games needs to apologize for phoning it in on the Dying Earth boxed set first; I got cheated.

Mine's still unopened like the other guy. What's the beef?

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on December 05, 2023, 09:27:16 AM

Quote from: Brad on December 05, 2023, 09:23:47 AM
Goodman Games needs to apologize for phoning it in on the Dying Earth boxed set first; I got cheated.

I haven't the heart to open it up frankly.  Its on the shelf, wrapped.

Maybe other people will like it, but I just think it looks and feels like DCC with a thin Vancian veneer instead of an actual Dying Earth game. I do realize it essentially IS DCC with a Vancian veneer, but they could have done a better job of altering mechanics and whatever else to fully enforce the theme instead of shoehorning fancy names and vocabulary into DCC. Basically, instead of changing things to make it more like Dying Earth, they changed things to make it more like DCC, if that makes any sense.

Don't even get me started on the adventures...uniformly generic DCC dungeon crawls (LOL) but with more soliloquies.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 04:12:58 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on December 05, 2023, 03:52:29 PM
It is the best way of handling it, just drop the race.  You can literally destroy a fucktard by saying I'm gender fluid and you had better address me as maam, then switch again and keep putting on the charade.  And just fuck with them non-stop.

Fundamentally, race is a myth anyway.

Yeah, I can wait for race based studies to be removed, its for the betterment of white males.  Race is based on skin, the darker the pigment, usually the thicker the skin and the harder the uptake for vitamin D.  Race is a good shorthand to help delineate those differences.

There is a small deviance amongst the genes in humans, however epithelial cell differences impact vision, nutritional defects, disease vulnerability and cancer risk.  I get the left going race doesn't exist.  Ok, lets drop race from medical studies.  What have you seen black skin versus white skin under a microscope - oh so that's why blacks have issues with glaucoma.  Don't worry the left will tell you its diet and systemic racism is why Kenyans and Baltimore blacks have similar glaucoma rates, it has nothing to do with skin.

Take an African move them to Canada, and then compare their rates of respiratory disease to whites living in the same area.  For some reason the Africans will have a higher respiratory disease rate, I wonder why?  Africans are optimized for living in tropical areas with higher sun exposure requiring black skin to protect from skin cancer.  They therefore need more exposure to sunlight generate vitamin D.  Vitamin D is extremely important for protecting individuals from respiratory diseases.  The cold doesn't make people get sick in Winter, its the lack of sunlight and people going outdoors to generate vitamin D that makes them sick.

Epithelial cell differences matter quite a bit, its our largest organ, it makes up our skin, intestines, respiratory tract, lining of abdomen, sweat glands and lens of the eye.

So I'm good with the left ake race doesn't matter, the left are implementing the studies to ignore race and go figure for some reason white men are overly represented because they volunteer more than any other group.  Good for me when dealing with side effects, bad for other races.  Don't get me started on them trying to pretend sex doesn't matter for same studies as well.

Heredity is not race.

Race is the concept that groups of ethnicities are monoliths who all act the same way, behave the same things, believe the same things, or otherwise are the same.  It's false now, and it always has been false.

It's a tool used exclusively to divide the ignorant so the elites can more easily rule them.

Don't fall for it.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 05:16:43 PM
Heredity is not race.

Race is the concept that groups of ethnicities are monoliths who all act the same way, behave the same things, believe the same things, or otherwise are the same.  It's false now, and it always has been false.

It's a tool used exclusively to divide the ignorant so the elites can more easily rule them.

Don't fall for it.

Dude I support your leftist faith.  But your evangelicalism of it is falling on deaf ears here.  People who advocate what you advocate for are applying it to medical studies and are killing people directly to it.  But feel free to evangelize.  Its hillarious.

Next as to Race, it identifies a group of people based on location and some similar genetics, that's about it, always has been, always will be.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on December 05, 2023, 05:29:41 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 05:16:43 PM
Heredity is not race.

Race is the concept that groups of ethnicities are monoliths who all act the same way, behave the same things, believe the same things, or otherwise are the same.  It's false now, and it always has been false.

It's a tool used exclusively to divide the ignorant so the elites can more easily rule them.

Don't fall for it.

Dude I support your leftist faith.  But your evangelicalism of it is falling on deaf ears here.  People who advocate what you advocate for are applying it to medical studies and are killing people directly to it.  But feel free to evangelize.  Its hillarious.

Next as to Race, it identifies a group of people based on location and some similar genetics, that's about it, always has been, always will be.  You see someone whose black you can call them black or african or ask, people go with that, the same way you see a white person and you assume they are European. 

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on December 05, 2023, 05:29:41 PM
Dude I support your leftist faith.  But your evangelicalism of it is falling on deaf ears here.  People who advocate what you advocate for are applying it to medical studies and are killing people directly to it.  But feel free to evangelize.  Its hillarious.

Next as to Race, it identifies a group of people based on location and some similar genetics, that's about it, always has been, always will be.

If you think I'm an ally to the left, your other opinions can't hold a lot of value.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 05:16:43 PM
Heredity is not race.

Race is the concept that groups of ethnicities are monoliths who all act the same way, behave the same things, believe the same things, or otherwise are the same.  It's false now, and it always has been false.

It's a tool used exclusively to divide the ignorant so the elites can more easily rule them.

Don't fall for it.

We're laughing and lamenting about Goodman getting suckered by internet zealots.

You're trying to turn this into some big debate about race. Cool it man, we don't care.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 05, 2023, 05:39:26 PM
We're laughing and lamenting about Goodman getting suckered by internet zealots.

You're trying to turn this into some big debate about race. Cool it man, we don't care.

Fine, but the word "white" seems to feature pretty prominently in the title, so it's tough to rule that offtopic, IMO.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 05:42:40 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 05, 2023, 05:39:26 PM
We're laughing and lamenting about Goodman getting suckered by internet zealots.

You're trying to turn this into some big debate about race. Cool it man, we don't care.

Fine, but the word "white" seems to feature pretty prominently in the title, so it's tough to rule that offtopic, IMO.

I guess I could have called them pinkskins.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkPi1kfx-2JYZPcxZdoGQa7ro3imvr7BsSTT5Q6miClfjcai46UsuG8U4WFHVxduiPqlY&usqp=CAU)

Really, if you have a problem with the terminology, maybe you should go hunt down all the idiots in the original tweet using the term "white" and let them know.

Quote from: Brad on December 05, 2023, 04:37:22 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 05, 2023, 09:48:27 AM

Quote from: Brad on December 05, 2023, 09:23:47 AM
Goodman Games needs to apologize for phoning it in on the Dying Earth boxed set first; I got cheated.

Mine's still unopened like the other guy. What's the beef?

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on December 05, 2023, 09:27:16 AM

Quote from: Brad on December 05, 2023, 09:23:47 AM
Goodman Games needs to apologize for phoning it in on the Dying Earth boxed set first; I got cheated.

I haven't the heart to open it up frankly.  Its on the shelf, wrapped.

Maybe other people will like it, but I just think it looks and feels like DCC with a thin Vancian veneer instead of an actual Dying Earth game. I do realize it essentially IS DCC with a Vancian veneer, but they could have done a better job of altering mechanics and whatever else to fully enforce the theme instead of shoehorning fancy names and vocabulary into DCC. Basically, instead of changing things to make it more like Dying Earth, they changed things to make it more like DCC, if that makes any sense.

Don't even get me started on the adventures...uniformly generic DCC dungeon crawls (LOL) but with more soliloquies.

It's sort of the worst of all possible products, because shoehorning Vance into DCC RPG did nothing to improve DCC either. (I like DCC a lot, but it's already a bit on the fiddly side for an OSR-adjacent product. Adding onto it just made it fiddlier. I also think Dying Earth was an odd setting choice for DCC but that's another story.)

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 05, 2023, 06:00:42 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 05:42:40 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 05, 2023, 05:39:26 PM
We're laughing and lamenting about Goodman getting suckered by internet zealots.

You're trying to turn this into some big debate about race. Cool it man, we don't care.

Fine, but the word "white" seems to feature pretty prominently in the title, so it's tough to rule that offtopic, IMO.

I guess I could have called them pinkskins.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkPi1kfx-2JYZPcxZdoGQa7ro3imvr7BsSTT5Q6miClfjcai46UsuG8U4WFHVxduiPqlY&usqp=CAU)

Really, if you have a problem with the terminology, maybe you should go hunt down all the idiots in the original tweet using the term "white" and let them know.

Man you had to show Cmdr Shran, that was a good character cut short in his arcs prime when Enterprise got shitcanned.  I mean if they would have moved it over to Skinemax it would still be going today.  Upping the sex appeal got it some more attention, but that opening song made the show unappealing to a lot.

Race may be a myth, but we need a shorthand for "that group of people who will be shouted down as non-diverse by leftists if they appear in the same place at the same time" or "that group of people who cannot claim special moral points in the USA for the colour of their skin" so we may as well say "White".

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAn64oGbUAAELbq?format=jpg&name=medium)

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 06, 2023, 04:01:56 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAn64oGbUAAELbq?format=jpg&name=medium)

"most diverse"

For some reason, I don't think they're referring to having a cleric and thief in the party...

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 06, 2023, 04:01:56 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAn64oGbUAAELbq?format=jpg&name=medium)

That's both cringeworthy, and illustrative of how "diversity" destroys games. The old version of the statement were a lighthearted homage to the creatives of the industry. The new version is "diversity" garbage that tries to deny and avoid the context of OSR type games.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 06, 2023, 01:19:53 PM
That's both cringeworthy, and illustrative of how "diversity" destroys games. The old version of the statement were a lighthearted homage to the creatives of the industry. The new version is "diversity" garbage that tries to deny and avoid the context of OSR type games.

I agree 100%.  The original is a loyalty statement to the game as a whole.  The latter is a nothing statement that won't ever appease the mob it targets.

The second one's also a loyalty statement, to Mr. Goodman's new masters.

Quote from: Melan on December 06, 2023, 03:48:39 PM
The second one's also a loyalty statement, to Mr. Goodman's new masters.

But it's so very, very milktoast compared to what they would want to see...

Quote from: Brad on December 06, 2023, 04:46:24 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 06, 2023, 04:01:56 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAn64oGbUAAELbq?format=jpg&name=medium)

"most diverse"

For some reason, I don't think they're referring to having a cleric and thief in the party...

Even then there's something to be said for a party of only fighters (ex soldiers) or an all-cleric party (rampaging zealots).

Goodman really is trying to sand all the edges off their product. It won't satisfy the nuts and it will make the product more bland, so good luck to them!

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 06, 2023, 06:03:36 PM

Quote from: Brad on December 06, 2023, 04:46:24 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 06, 2023, 04:01:56 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAn64oGbUAAELbq?format=jpg&name=medium)

"most diverse"

For some reason, I don't think they're referring to having a cleric and thief in the party...

Even then there's something to be said for a party of only fighters (ex soldiers) or an all-cleric party (rampaging zealots).

Goodman really is trying to sand all the edges off their product. It won't satisfy the nuts and it will make the product more bland, so good luck to them!

The difference between the two printings cited, is quite distinct.  Goodness.  What a bending of the knee, that is.

It is sad really. How many companies are going to take a big fat dump on their loyal fans in order to try and and appease a very small group of whiny bitches who don't even buy their product? The lack of business sense here is staggering.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 06, 2023, 06:03:36 PM
Even then there's something to be said for a party of only fighters (ex soldiers) or an all-cleric party (rampaging zealots).

Just to comment on that tangent, one of the best games I ever played was when the group spontaneously decided to all play dwarves.  Great series of games and we got to do a deep dive on Dwarven lore and culture.

Quote from: zircher on December 07, 2023, 10:38:49 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 06, 2023, 06:03:36 PM
Even then there's something to be said for a party of only fighters (ex soldiers) or an all-cleric party (rampaging zealots).

Just to comment on that tangent, one of the best games I ever played was when the group spontaneously decided to all play dwarves.  Great series of games and we got to do a deep dive on Dwarven lore and culture.

I've always wanted to run a game for a party of all Orc Bards.  We'd call it the Orchestra...

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 07, 2023, 10:46:53 AM

Quote from: zircher on December 07, 2023, 10:38:49 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 06, 2023, 06:03:36 PM
Even then there's something to be said for a party of only fighters (ex soldiers) or an all-cleric party (rampaging zealots).

Just to comment on that tangent, one of the best games I ever played was when the group spontaneously decided to all play dwarves.  Great series of games and we got to do a deep dive on Dwarven lore and culture.

I've always wanted to run a game for a party of all Orc Bards.  We'd call it the Orchestra...

LOL. What genre of music? Mariachi, bluegrass, neo-pagan?

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 07, 2023, 11:50:49 AM

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 07, 2023, 10:46:53 AM

Quote from: zircher on December 07, 2023, 10:38:49 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 06, 2023, 06:03:36 PM
Even then there's something to be said for a party of only fighters (ex soldiers) or an all-cleric party (rampaging zealots).

Just to comment on that tangent, one of the best games I ever played was when the group spontaneously decided to all play dwarves.  Great series of games and we got to do a deep dive on Dwarven lore and culture.

I've always wanted to run a game for a party of all Orc Bards.  We'd call it the Orchestra...

LOL. What genre of music? Mariachi, bluegrass, neo-pagan?

My two cents after watching this fucking travesty, that shit will not be done at my table anymore.  Bardic kobolds still ok, but that Star Trek joke ruined anything orc and bards again.

It did give Strange New Worlds a high viewership for the cringe, not the love of the show.  After the second season reverted back to Kurtzmen trek, it ain't looking good for them being renewed.  At least the first season was in the 5-6 out of 10 range of Star Trek.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 07, 2023, 11:50:49 AM

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 07, 2023, 10:46:53 AM

Quote from: zircher on December 07, 2023, 10:38:49 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 06, 2023, 06:03:36 PM
Even then there's something to be said for a party of only fighters (ex soldiers) or an all-cleric party (rampaging zealots).

Just to comment on that tangent, one of the best games I ever played was when the group spontaneously decided to all play dwarves.  Great series of games and we got to do a deep dive on Dwarven lore and culture.

I've always wanted to run a game for a party of all Orc Bards.  We'd call it the Orchestra...

LOL. What genre of music? Mariachi, bluegrass, neo-pagan?

In my mind it would have to be somewhere between Scottish war songs and Indian death metal.  Since these are orcs I imagine every drumstick is also simply a club that could be used for due building attacks and the pipes would absolutely always breathe fire.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 07, 2023, 10:46:53 AM

Quote from: zircher on December 07, 2023, 10:38:49 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 06, 2023, 06:03:36 PM
Even then there's something to be said for a party of only fighters (ex soldiers) or an all-cleric party (rampaging zealots).

Just to comment on that tangent, one of the best games I ever played was when the group spontaneously decided to all play dwarves.  Great series of games and we got to do a deep dive on Dwarven lore and culture.

I've always wanted to run a game for a party of all Orc Bards.  We'd call it the Orchestra...

Of course, their nighttime fighting tactics would be collectively referred to as Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark.

Sorry, but it was right there... Couldn't help myself.

To keep this somewhat on topic, out of curiosity, did they also purge Gary's name from the Appendix N section of the book? Is DCC no longer dedicated to Jim Roslof? How deep down the memory hole have they thrown those names?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 06, 2023, 04:01:56 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAn64oGbUAAELbq?format=jpg&name=medium)

Tell me this is not real. This was photoshopped?

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 05:16:43 PM
Heredity is not race.

Race is the concept that groups of ethnicities are monoliths who all act the same way, behave the same things, believe the same things, or otherwise are the same.  It's false now, and it always has been false.

It's a tool used exclusively to divide the ignorant so the elites can more easily rule them.

Don't fall for it.

That's definitely not what the concept of race is. Get out of your bedroom.

Quote from: 1989 on December 07, 2023, 02:48:29 PM
That's definitely not what the concept of race is. Get out of your bedroom.

Yep, that's definitely me.  The cloistered and untraveled.  You sure are well informed!

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 07, 2023, 03:40:34 PM

Quote from: 1989 on December 07, 2023, 02:48:29 PM
That's definitely not what the concept of race is. Get out of your bedroom.

Yep, that's definitely me.  The cloistered and untraveled.  You sure are well informed!

You should be appreciative of his politeness.   He chose to interpret your problems as stemming from inexperience, as opposed to the more probable origin: that you are just a self-important moron.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 07, 2023, 09:18:23 PM

You should be appreciative of his politeness.   He chose to interpret your problems as stemming from inexperience, as opposed to the more probable origin: that you are just a self-important moron.

People who assume incorrect things about others without information are fools, film at 11.

Quote from: 1989 on December 07, 2023, 02:42:13 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 06, 2023, 04:01:56 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAn64oGbUAAELbq?format=jpg&name=medium)

Tell me this is not real. This was photoshopped?

No, it is real.

Quote... a party is strongest when ... acknowledging fantasy's roots while helping it grow to meet the challenges of the future

Nothing highlighted, because it's all egregious.

Sputtering on bile over the claim that "good parties are diverse parties" -- while entirely understandable -- can lead to missing the subtler but more odious shift here:

In the 8th printing, the goal of the game is to have fun. In the 10th printing, the goal of the game is to guide the fantasy genre as a whole onto an ideological path. Says so right there.

These people have clearly lost their minds.

Alright, I'm inspired.  I had the 8th printing from a Humble Bundle already, so I've grabbed the 10th and will do a text compare today.  Should that be a separate thread?  Probably?

And yes, I did just give them money, but this is for science...

Spoiler, but, who is SBP and why is most (but not all) of their art being replaced in the DCC 10th printing?

They replaced Stefan Poag? Damn, that's sad. His stuff is excellent, and especially fit for DCC's vibe. :(

Quote from: Melan on December 08, 2023, 10:07:28 AM
They replaced Stefan Poag? Damn, that's sad. His stuff is excellent, and especially fit for DCC's vibe. :(

To be completely fair, some of the new art is also labeled SBP.  But the style seems different to me.  In the example below, left is 8th and right is 10th printing.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 07, 2023, 11:04:58 PM
No, it is real.

Man that really should be unbelievable.

While there's plenty of greenlisted OSR products, are any of the actual near-clones greenlisted at this point, or were they all targeted and subverted?

From Tekkars Tavern it appears people reached out regarding the luminaries including Gary GyGax and Dave Arneson being removed and the line is being readded in the next printing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IsUxirgMaQ

Good news.  Still hate DCC but at least there is one less game company trying to erase Gary and Dave from the hobby.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 08, 2023, 10:51:29 AM

Quote from: Melan on December 08, 2023, 10:07:28 AM
They replaced Stefan Poag? Damn, that's sad. His stuff is excellent, and especially fit for DCC's vibe. :(

To be completely fair, some of the new art is also labeled SBP.  But the style seems different to me.  In the example below, left is 8th and right is 10th printing.

From that image, it looks as if the guy has been working on his techniques and wanted to update some of the images that weren't up to his standard.  Still, the character of the old one has some flavor to it that is missing in the new one.

Quote from: GhostNinja on December 08, 2023, 11:03:41 AM
From Tekkars Tavern it appears people reached out regarding the luminaries including Gary GyGax and Dave Arneson being removed and the line is being readded in the next printing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IsUxirgMaQ

Good news.  Still hate DCC but at least there is one less game company trying to erase Gary and Dave from the hobby.

Sure good news, but what are the values and principles of this company? Follow whoever screams loudest?

Okay, I now have a headache and am ready to stop my book comparison.  The list follows below.  I can answer questions.  I could keep going, but I'm just tired.  My big takeaways are:

1) Some woke language changes, even when they don't make sense.  Not as extensive as WotC did, and done mostly via sloppy find/replace.  Dark elves are still "black-skinned", there's still slavery, disability, Alignment is still mandatory, etc.

2) Spiritual changes that we knew about, and a similar one that surprised me - they removed the OSR from the book.

3) The new print targets 5e players.

4) Dozens of art changes.

5) When they touched a section due to art or edits, they reformatted it a bit.

6) Very few actual errata fixes.


The list:


01) Art replaced
Page(s) 04, 05, 08, 29, 32, 40, 41, 47-48, 53, 61, etc.

02) "understanding the history and significance of the Elder Gods Gygax and Arneson and their cohorts Bledsaw, Holmes, Jaquays, Kask, Kuntz, Mentzer, Moldvay, and Ward,"
replaced with
"aware that a party is strongest when it is most diverse, acknowledging fantasy's roots while helping it grow to meet the challenges of the future,"
Page 10

03) "knowledgeable of the role of "judge""
replaced with
"acquainted with the role of "judge""
Page 10

04) "Nicholson" added to the list of denizens
Page 10

05) System comparison changed from 3e to 5e
Page 12

06) "his"
replaced with
"their"
Page 17 is first, but these are too numerous to count

Note - many of these are a bad find and replace, e.g. multiple sentences beginning with a lower case 't' in 'they'/'their'.  Also 'him' and 'himself' seem to have been left alone.  And some of these are worse writing, 'a mother defending her cubs' became 'a mother defending their cubs'.  Additionally Gary Gygax gets misgendered multiple times due to this approach. Finally, on page 35 "his or her belongings" gets replaced with "their or their belongings" (no, I'm not kidding.)

07) "gypsy"
replaced with
"wanderer" or "witch"
Page 22 and 106

08) "mankind", "man", "brothers", etc
replaced with
"humanity", etc
Page 25 is first, but these are too numerous to count

09) Mechanical or formatting updates, "Agility score higher than 16" to "17"
Page 61, Page 70, Page 121

10) Appendix N now contains a Post Script that recommends additional books
Page 444

11) "APPENDIX O: OSR RESOURCES" replaced with "APPENDIX O: ORIGINS, POINTS OF"
Note - OSR has been excised from the book.  It can be found only twice now.  Once in the index (because it should have been updated and wasn't) and once in the author's comment that they "did not set out to create a retroclone (in the OSR sense)".  The chapter that was about OSR is now about DCC.

12) "Medicine man"
replaced with
"Healer"
Page 450/454

13) YDDGRRL'S MAZE is replaced by KEEP OFF THE BORDERLAND
Page 457/461

14) The ads in the back are significantly different, as may be expected.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 08, 2023, 12:01:44 PM
Sure good news, but what are the values and principles of this company? Follow whoever screams loudest?

Yes, you are right.  I hate DCC and they are too woke anyway so they will never get my money.  It is sad how Goodman bent the knee to the woke crowd and there is no turning him around, I believe Goodman and his company are lost to the dark side for good.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 08, 2023, 12:05:11 PM
Okay, I now have a headache and am ready to stop my book comparison.  The list follows below.  I can answer questions.  I could keep going, but I'm just tired.  My big takeaways are:

1) Some woke language changes, even when they don't make sense.  Not as extensive as WotC did, and done mostly via sloppy find/replace.  Dark elves are still "black-skinned", there's still slavery, disability, Alignment is still mandatory, etc.

2) Spiritual changes that we knew about, and a similar one that surprised me - they removed the OSR from the book.

3) The new print targets 5e players.

4) Dozens of art changes.

5) When they touched a section due to art or edits, they reformatted it a bit.

6) Very few actual errata fixes.


The list:


01) Art replaced
Page(s) 04, 05, 08, 29, 32, 40, 41, 47-48, 53, 61, etc.

02) "understanding the history and significance of the Elder Gods Gygax and Arneson and their cohorts Bledsaw, Holmes, Jaquays, Kask, Kuntz, Mentzer, Moldvay, and Ward,"
replaced with
"aware that a party is strongest when it is most diverse, acknowledging fantasy's roots while helping it grow to meet the challenges of the future,"
Page 10

03) "knowledgeable of the role of "judge""
replaced with
"acquainted with the role of "judge""
Page 10

04) "Nicholson" added to the list of denizens
Page 10

05) System comparison changed from 3e to 5e
Page 12

06) "his"
replaced with
"their"
Page 17 is first, but these are too numerous to count

Note - many of these are a bad find and replace, e.g. multiple sentences beginning with a lower case 't' in 'they'/'their'.  Also 'him' and 'himself' seem to have been left alone.  And some of these are worse writing, 'a mother defending her cubs' became 'a mother defending their cubs'.  Additionally Gary Gygax gets misgendered multiple times due to this approach. Finally, on page 35 "his or her belongings" gets replaced with "their or their belongings" (no, I'm not kidding.)

07) "gypsy"
replaced with
"wanderer" or "witch"
Page 22 and 106

08) "mankind", "man", "brothers", etc
replaced with
"humanity", etc
Page 25 is first, but these are too numerous to count

09) Mechanical or formatting updates, "Agility score higher than 16" to "17"
Page 61, Page 70, Page 121

10) Appendix N now contains a Post Script that recommends additional books
Page 444

11) "APPENDIX O: OSR RESOURCES" replaced with "APPENDIX O: ORIGINS, POINTS OF"
Note - OSR has been excised from the book.  It can be found only twice now.  Once in the index (because it should have been updated and wasn't) and once in the author's comment that they "did not set out to create a retroclone (in the OSR sense)".  The chapter that was about OSR is now about DCC.

12) "Medicine man"
replaced with
"Healer"
Page 450/454

13) YDDGRRL'S MAZE is replaced by KEEP OFF THE BORDERLAND
Page 457/461

14) The ads in the back are significantly different, as may be expected.

Wow you took one for the team here!

This tells me that progressiveness is so important to them, one of their fundamental values, they spent a whole entire hour (!) editing their rule book.

And they've also helpfully clarified that they believe that gypsies are wanderers and witches.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 08, 2023, 12:05:11 PM
Note - many of these are a bad find and replace, e.g. multiple sentences beginning with a lower case 't' in 'they'/'their'.  Also 'him' and 'himself' seem to have been left alone.  And some of these are worse writing, 'a mother defending her cubs' became 'a mother defending their cubs'.  Additionally Gary Gygax gets misgendered multiple times due to this approach. Finally, on page 35 "his or her belongings" gets replaced with "their or their belongings" (no, I'm not kidding.)

..

11) "APPENDIX O: OSR RESOURCES" replaced with "APPENDIX O: ORIGINS, POINTS OF"
Note - OSR has been excised from the book.  It can be found only twice now.  Once in the index (because it should have been updated and wasn't) and once in the author's comment that they "did not set out to create a retroclone (in the OSR sense)".  The chapter that was about OSR is now about DCC.

...

12) "Medicine man"
replaced with
"Healer"
Page 450/454

I want a book that exclusively uses masculine pronouns and has a little blurb at the top that explains that these can be understood as neutral pronouns.  Second edition even did this, and of course, it was taught in schools for like over a century or more.  One can, of course, make a case for 'his or hers' (but never plural pronouns, of course).  But the reason I want it is because anyone saying that is simply not ever gonna be welcomed by Team Politics Gender Subversion Squad.

"Medicine Man" becoming "Healer" is so wildly cucked it's unreal.

The actual "their and their" bit is amazing though.  I really love that it's a hot mess of editing fuckery as he stamps over anything that could be perceived as non-political, and I also love that his reaction to government media attacks on the OSR (if you're a fellow American, your tax dollars at work defaming you here: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/how-a-new-generation-of-gamers-is-pushing-for-inclusivity-beyond-the-table ! ) is to erase mentions of the OSR.

Also extraordinary work compiling this.

=======

Now, on to an earlier topic that you had mentioned in recent posts (I forget exactly which thread).  You had mentioned that race wasn't real.  But I have a definition of race that seems pretty real.
Check out this document:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684
The "bipartisan infrastructure bill", and search for "minority".  You'll see statements like "In selecting eligible entities to receive grants under the Program, the Secretary shall give priority to eligible entities that are minority-owned."
So there's your definition for "white", and it's real- if you don't qualify for all these various tucked-away, bloodline-defined privileges and carved out benefits, if you are NOT legally privileged... then you're white.  That's race.  It's biological, because it's inherited and the government will punish your kids just the same as you if your mate is also "white", and it's real, because it's all about what jobs you aren't allowed to have if you're white, and what opportunities are systematically denied you.
Maybe there's other definitions, but anti-white activists have no problem targeting white people.  It doesn't matter if the whole race, or all races and the concept of race, are scientifically fictional- it's real enough in all of the myraid lawbooks this empire produces and wields, and that should be a functional enough definition.

I don't want to go too far afield again, except to say that governments can be as delusional as individuals.  If not more so.  They have this view, but they are just perpetuating the myth.  Make sense?

That bit about changed art is the most interesting. From the previous posted art it doesn't seem like it's related to the woke changes but just art updates, so I am curious how they look.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 08, 2023, 05:12:43 PM
That bit about changed art is the most interesting. From the previous posted art it doesn't seem like it's related to the woke changes but just art updates, so I am curious how they look.

Roger roger.  Here's some more examples...

Another...

Another another...

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 08, 2023, 05:25:27 PM
Another another...

This change removes a crucifix and swaps a sex, it's definitely been done for those reasons.
Edit: Well I assume the new right image is a woman.  I'm actually not 100% sure.

The others don't seem to have an angle.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 08, 2023, 12:01:44 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on December 08, 2023, 11:03:41 AM
From Tekkars Tavern it appears people reached out regarding the luminaries including Gary GyGax and Dave Arneson being removed and the line is being readded in the next printing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IsUxirgMaQ

Good news.  Still hate DCC but at least there is one less game company trying to erase Gary and Dave from the hobby.

Sure good news, but what are the values and principles of this company? Follow whoever screams loudest?

Looks like. The worst of all possible worlds, because they'll just be pawns in the culture war, and their content will suffer as they spend more time trying to thread the needle of appeasing everyone, instead of making fun games.

Quote from: Venka on December 08, 2023, 05:45:29 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 08, 2023, 05:25:27 PM
Another another...

This change removes a crucifix and swaps a sex, it's definitely been done for those reasons.
Edit: Well I assume the new right image is a woman.  I'm actually not 100% sure.

The others don't seem to have an angle.

The latter looks like a warlock or something.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 08, 2023, 07:17:11 PM
The latter looks like a warlock or something.

Well you know with how hairless and lanky they is, maybe warlocks is females, you know, just around the campfire...

Ok but seriously then, the removal of a crucifix is absolutely never an accident, and that then was the point- replace the character with one that wouldn't have a cross.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 08, 2023, 07:17:11 PM

Quote from: Venka on December 08, 2023, 05:45:29 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 08, 2023, 05:25:27 PM
Another another...

This change removes a crucifix and swaps a sex, it's definitely been done for those reasons.
Edit: Well I assume the new right image is a woman.  I'm actually not 100% sure.

The others don't seem to have an angle.

The latter looks like a warlock or something.

Not sure. But it feels like the violence level in several was toned down? Least the ones seen so far.

Quote from: Omega on December 08, 2023, 11:39:09 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 08, 2023, 07:17:11 PM

Quote from: Venka on December 08, 2023, 05:45:29 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 08, 2023, 05:25:27 PM
Another another...

This change removes a crucifix and swaps a sex, it's definitely been done for those reasons.
Edit: Well I assume the new right image is a woman.  I'm actually not 100% sure.

The others don't seem to have an angle.

The latter looks like a warlock or something.

Not sure. But it feels like the violence level in several was toned down? Least the ones seen so far.

Yeah, at this rate in the 11th printing corruption will just turn you into a care bear.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 08, 2023, 05:24:40 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 08, 2023, 05:12:43 PM
That bit about changed art is the most interesting. From the previous posted art it doesn't seem like it's related to the woke changes but just art updates, so I am curious how they look.

Roger roger.  Here's some more examples...

That first example shows that they are anti- lizard folk. I think lizard folk should launch a complaint to Goodman for not being inclusive.

It's obvious all the art changes were done for woke reasons:

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 08, 2023, 05:24:40 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 08, 2023, 05:12:43 PM
That bit about changed art is the most interesting. From the previous posted art it doesn't seem like it's related to the woke changes but just art updates, so I am curious how they look.

Roger roger.  Here's some more examples...
*EXAMPLE OMITTED*

First one is a change from a guy fighting lizard men to just some explorers.

Obviously they did not want to portray lizardmen as just some evil monsters to fight - they have their own unique culture 'mkay. And obviously they did not want to have people think that it was ok for a human to just kill lizardmen...

Because the game already has enough violence, right?

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 08, 2023, 05:25:03 PM
Another... *EXAMPLE OMITTED*

The first group is obviously trying to rob a very egyptian looking sarcophagus. Any sensitivity reader good at their grift is getting that tossed instantly.

So now they are just opening a plain, culturally neutral, treasure chest...

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 08, 2023, 05:25:27 PM
Another another... *EXAMPLE OMITTED*

All too easy. Venka speaks the truth:

Quote from: Venka on December 08, 2023, 07:40:58 PM
...
Ok but seriously then, the removal of a crucifix is absolutely never an accident, and that then was the point...

White male Christian Cross wielding Cleric out. Androgynous horned armored "Cleric", with horned demon symbol on chest in. The inversion was strong with this one...


Mcbobbo has bravely done all the legwork. And upon review of his findings, there is only one conclusion to be made:

Goodman games has become Fake and Gay.

Quote from: Venka on December 08, 2023, 07:40:58 PM
Ok but seriously then, the removal of a crucifix is absolutely never an accident, and that then was the point- replace the character with one that wouldn't have a cross.

   I'm trying to decide if "Christophobic" or "Cruciphobic" is the better term for the Unofficial Bigotry of the Hobby ...

   Meanwhile, I see Goodman Games is hosting a chat with Michael Moorcock, so they seem to be increasing on their alliance with Chaotic Evil. :D

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 09, 2023, 04:33:48 PM

Quote from: Venka on December 08, 2023, 07:40:58 PM
Ok but seriously then, the removal of a crucifix is absolutely never an accident, and that then was the point- replace the character with one that wouldn't have a cross.

   I'm trying to decide if "Christophobic" or "Cruciphobic" is the better term for the Unofficial Bigotry of the Hobby ...

Misevangelium (hatred of The Good News) I think fits the description, especially given how many seem to prefer nihilism and crying about impending doom. They can never be happy because they've defined their identity by their "oppression."

Quote from: Exploderwizard on December 07, 2023, 07:46:04 AM
It is sad really. How many companies are going to take a big fat dump on their loyal fans in order to try and and appease a very small group of whiny bitches who don't even buy their product? The lack of business sense here is staggering.

I think they're banking on a future of whiny bitches, because us old son of bitches are going to die off.

Quote from: DocJones on December 10, 2023, 07:24:47 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on December 07, 2023, 07:46:04 AM
It is sad really. How many companies are going to take a big fat dump on their loyal fans in order to try and and appease a very small group of whiny bitches who don't even buy their product? The lack of business sense here is staggering.

I think they're banking on a future of whiny bitches, because us old son of bitches are going to die off.

Thing is most of those whiny bitches don't buy the THING once the THING has been changed to appeal/appease them.

Goodman Games is overrepresented on my game shelf. In the interest of diversity and inclusion, I'll no longer be buying their products. What are some good alternatives to DCC?

Quote from: Spiked Flail on December 10, 2023, 09:20:37 PM
Goodman Games is overrepresented on my game shelf. In the interest of diversity and inclusion, I'll no longer be buying their products. What are some good alternatives to DCC?

Lion and Dragon is excellent OSR gaming.  An OSE box set is cool.

Quote from: Spiked Flail on December 10, 2023, 09:20:37 PM
Goodman Games is overrepresented on my game shelf. In the interest of diversity and inclusion, I'll no longer be buying their products. What are some good alternatives to DCC?

Greg Gillespie's Dragonslayer RPG will be dropping early next year.  It's designed to go with his already published megadungeons.  Pretty much a mash-up of AD&D and B/X with a few tweaks & house rules.  The look and feel are definitely TSR ca. 1982 right down to using some of the old TSR artists.  And the SJW's hate him so if you're really looking to make a point, there you go. 

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 05, 2023, 05:16:43 PM
Heredity is not race.

Race is the concept that groups of ethnicities are monoliths who all act the same way, behave the same things, believe the same things, or otherwise are the same.  It's false now, and it always has been false.

It's a tool used exclusively to divide the ignorant so the elites can more easily rule them.

Don't fall for it.

"I have a bunch of hang-ups and personal baggage about the word Race, ergo all of my personal connotations are objectively part of the word and concept, so you must stop using the word."

Quote from: zircher on December 07, 2023, 10:38:49 AM
Just to comment on that tangent, one of the best games I ever played was when the group spontaneously decided to all play dwarves.  Great series of games and we got to do a deep dive on Dwarven lore and culture.

Hopefully you didn't delve too greedily and too deep.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 11, 2023, 02:41:37 PM
"I have a bunch of hang-ups and personal baggage about the word Race, ergo all of my personal connotations are objectively part of the word and concept, so you must stop using the word."

I'm really shocked at how many of you want to cling to this idea.

I'm not shocked at how you'd attempt to 'other' me rather than engage with the thought.  Some things never change.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 11, 2023, 03:17:34 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 11, 2023, 02:41:37 PM
"I have a bunch of hang-ups and personal baggage about the word Race, ergo all of my personal connotations are objectively part of the word and concept, so you must stop using the word."

I'm really shocked at how many of you want to cling to this idea.

I'm not shocked at how you'd attempt to 'other' me rather than engage with the thought.  Some things never change.

Race is shorthand for 'belonging to a group that share genes based on past relative geographic isolation.' It's perfectly understood, and functional.

People from different gene groups have very real biological differences beyond skin color. You simply have to research things like bone marrow transplants, or diabetes/sickle cell, to understand this.

Thinking people are from monoliths, or taking stereotypes as solid facts, are associated with the word, but not an inherent part of its meaning.

Quote from: Spiked Flail on December 10, 2023, 09:20:37 PM
Goodman Games is overrepresented on my game shelf. In the interest of diversity and inclusion, I'll no longer be buying their products. What are some good alternatives to DCC?

Hyperborea is decent. It's not as gonzo. The adventure library is not nearly as large as DDC's, but you can run AD&D material pretty much as written.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 11, 2023, 03:26:42 PM
Race is shorthand for 'belonging to a group that share genes based on past relative geographic isolation.' It's perfectly understood, and functional.

Leprechauns are also perfectly understood and functional as a concept.  They happen to be mythological (as far as I'm aware).

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 11, 2023, 03:26:42 PM
People from different gene groups have very real biological differences beyond skin color. You simply have to research things like bone marrow transplants, or diabetes/sickle cell, to understand this.

Biologically, we're all one race - human.  Heredity is not race, and it is specific to individuals.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 11, 2023, 03:26:42 PM
Thinking people are from monoliths, or taking stereotypes as solid facts, are associated with the word, but not an inherent part of its meaning.

In a topic with the word "white' in its title, you don't get to make that claim with any integrity.  "White" is very, very clearly not a biological term.  It's a purely social one.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 11, 2023, 03:17:34 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 11, 2023, 02:41:37 PM
"I have a bunch of hang-ups and personal baggage about the word Race, ergo all of my personal connotations are objectively part of the word and concept, so you must stop using the word."

I'm really shocked at how many of you want to cling to this idea.

I'm not shocked at how you'd attempt to 'other' me rather than engage with the thought.  Some things never change.

If you've noticed, I've not engaged you on this issue.  However, I understand everyone else's difficulty in how you are presenting an unconventional line of thought.  Even I have to slow down and carefully think about what you are trying to say.  I'm not trying to throw shade, I just want to suggest that you consider that you're being casual with shaking up a foundational understanding of things and it comes across kind of difficult for many.  Maybe think about selling the idea rather than assume everyone should already be onboard with it?

I do think your heart is in the right place and there is some merit to your position.  Peace?

Quote from: BadApple on December 11, 2023, 05:39:16 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 11, 2023, 03:17:34 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 11, 2023, 02:41:37 PM
"I have a bunch of hang-ups and personal baggage about the word Race, ergo all of my personal connotations are objectively part of the word and concept, so you must stop using the word."

I'm really shocked at how many of you want to cling to this idea.

I'm not shocked at how you'd attempt to 'other' me rather than engage with the thought.  Some things never change.

If you've noticed, I've not engaged you on this issue.  However, I understand everyone else's difficulty in how you are presenting an unconventional line of thought.  Even I have to slow down and carefully think about what you are trying to say.  I'm not trying to throw shade, I just want to suggest that you consider that you're being casual with shaking up a foundational understanding of things and it comes across kind of difficult for many.  Maybe think about selling the idea rather than assume everyone should already be onboard with it?

I do think your heart is in the right place and there is some merit to your position.  Peace?

I'd suggest you all drop this before you get a thread ban.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 11, 2023, 06:36:53 PMI'd suggest you all drop this before you get a thread ban.

Back on topic, if a Rap label put out advertising and had all black guys, no-one would flinch, so why are a group of white guys a 'mistake' and dangerous to a brand?

"Oh but RPG's have women and minorities!" And Rap has white an Asian dudes and women, and yet no-one would bat an eye over a panel of just black guys.

The usual suspects sticking their heads in the sand, and declaring they can't see double standards.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 11, 2023, 06:50:36 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 11, 2023, 06:36:53 PMI'd suggest you all drop this before you get a thread ban.

Back on topic, if a Rap label put out advertising and had all black guys, no-one would flinch, so why are a group of white guys a 'mistake' and dangerous to a brand?

"Oh but RPG's have women and minorities!" And Rap has white an Asian dudes and women, and yet no-one would bat an eye over a panel of just black guys.

The usual suspects sticking their heads in the sand, and declaring they can't see double standards.

Because white leftists are the only racial group in the US that has negative in group preference, mean white leftards they hate white people, I mean really hate white people.  The old stereotype about the self hating jew, its wrong, its the self hating white leftard.  When you see a white liberal and you are white, don't relax, they hate you more times than not because you are white. 
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/americas-white-saviors

Read the study.  Now look at those white liberal women in HR and you got an idea why they made it a point not to hire whites.  Take a look at this bloomberg study for S&P 100 firms hiring 6% white workers since the 2020 race riots, or IOW's they hired 1/10th white present in the population while they say they are going for equity.  When you explode those bubbles, you don't see young whites being hired, its Gen X and Boomers and some millenial whites getting hired.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-black-lives-matter-equal-opportunity-corporate-diversity/

Going through all this, you see the racial hatred being directed towards whites, this is in hiring and just being impolite to you by other leftard whites.  It doesn't take much to see why they ree like insane dribbling aholes when they see an all white merit based ad for RPG's.  Best thing is to ignore the hordes, put out as good as product as possible and gatekeep.  You see a leftard, ask them what church do they go too, ask them how much they love the US and what are they doing to celebrate the 4th of July, tell them we are doing a neighborhood shooting range you want to chip in, do the same thing in forums.  Make them feel unwelcomed.  If rpgnet gatekeeped you wouldn't see a progressive pride flag and them going so far into leftist that they crawled into Stalin corpses butthole.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 11, 2023, 03:26:42 PM
Race is shorthand for 'belonging to a group that share genes based on past relative geographic isolation.' It's perfectly understood, and functional.

People from different gene groups have very real biological differences beyond skin color. You simply have to research things like bone marrow transplants, or diabetes/sickle cell, to understand this.

Thinking people are from monoliths, or taking stereotypes as solid facts, are associated with the word, but not an inherent part of its meaning.

Race as terminology is tied to historical usage - like "white" being a race along with "black" or "African" as a race. Modern geneticists tend to speak about haplogroups - which are exactly groups of genetic similarity. But no one speaks of the A2-M6 race or even the Khoi-San race.

The problem is that there are few cases "relative geographic isolation". Africa was not isolated from Europe or the Middle East - there was lots of migration and intermarriage between them. It's mostly just the Americas and Australia that were geographically isolated.

In general, the dividing lines of traditional race don't correspond well to modern determined haplogroups. For example, tradition says everyone from Africa the same race, which is totally against genetics. As the birthplace of humanity, Africa has the greatest genetic diversity. There are major differences among  Also traditionally, mixed-race people in the U.S. are lumped together with Africans - i.e. Barack Obama is considered black and not white. That makes no sense genetically.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 11, 2023, 04:33:57 PM
In a topic with the word "white' in its title, you don't get to make that claim with any integrity.  "White" is very, very clearly not a biological term.  It's a purely social one.

Again, I put the term White in the title intentionally because wokie keyboard activists were specifically calling out Goodman Game's panel for being all White. The issue is the wokie definition of "Whiteness" is politically laden and intentionally meant to make the topic confusing. Thus this sidetrack.

Back on topic, I assume there's still an old white guy running the company?

With woke corpos, there's always a Baltar surrounded by Cylons.

The original picture showed a tremendous amount of diversity of ethnic origins including German, English, Russian, Austrian, Irish and French.
:)