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So, having just watched the Dr.Who story "The Aztecs" for the first time ever, I have to say I felt it inspiring me somewhat.  

If you were to run an Aztec campaign, which system would you use? Is there any game made for this?

I know there's Empire of the Petal Throne, but that's not real aztecs, its some weird pastiche of a number of cultures that doesn't end up feeling like any of them.

I know also there was a pretty good Aztec setting in the Hollow World, but I'm not too sure about using that.

Finally, I know that there was at one point a GURPS aztecs book, I never read it. Was it considered a good historical GURPS book? or one of the poorer ones?

Anything else I might have missed?

RPGPundit

I study the Aztecs, more specifically,my Master's Thesis was on the political interplay between Cortes's interpretation of Spanish Hegemony over the Valley of Mexico and Moctezuma's administration.

I think the GURPS book is actually pretty good as an overview, but spends way too many pages on auspicious dates.  I mean, that's important, culturally, but didn't need to take up 20 pages.

If you want to run a game set in the Aztec world, with Mixteca PCs...there's really nothing that models their worldview properly.  GURPS works as well as it does in anything, but there's really nothing that hits the mark, system-wise.

Also, other than the GURPS book, most of the "Aztec" books out there are pop-history interpretations with little accuracy beyond what anything on the History Channel will show you.

I am more a fan of the Maya and I have run several Mayan adventures and one campaign. Essentially, I have not found any setting or source book I am really happy with. There is some GURPs books but...meh, they always leave me sort of uninspired. Usually, to get really inspired, I sit down and glyph out a message for the players or read one of the history books from my library.

I would be interested in an RPG that dealt with this subject matter as well.

Quote from: joewolz;283064Also, other than the GURPS book, most of the "Aztec" books out there are pop-history interpretations with little accuracy beyond what anything on the History Channel will show you.

What are your suggestions for scholarly books on the subject that are reasonably layman-friendly?

By reasonably, I mean, does not presume indepth background in mesoamerican studies already.

I played in a game that had similar story lines leading to  Aztec culture.  We used the Stargate game, with Spycraft rules.  It played well, until our group dismantled.

I suggest Tlachtli, that ball game where they knock the ball through vertical hoops on the sides of the court, using their hips and knees.

-clash

(http://library.thinkquest.org/J002486/Multimedia/Tlachtli.gif)

EDIT: Remember to read the original post before replying next time, clash!

Quote from: joewolz;283064If you want to run a game set in the Aztec world, with Mixteca PCs...there's really nothing that models their worldview properly.  GURPS works as well as it does in anything, but there's really nothing that hits the mark, system-wise

What do you see as required for this?

I'm no expert regarding Aztecs, but I fully recommend GURPS Aztecs. In fact it's one of my favorite GURPS historical supplements (after GURPS Imperial Rome and GURPS Russia. Not only it crams lots of information in its 128 pages, but it provides with ideas for adventure (not all supplements do this, some of them forget they're meant to be used for gaming), for example there's one chapter about pochteca, which is a gold mine for adventure ideas.

Quote from: joewolz;283064I study the Aztecs, more specifically,my Master's Thesis was on the political interplay between Cortes's interpretation of Spanish Hegemony over the Valley of Mexico and Moctezuma's administration.

Good on ya for writing "Moctezuma", but why not "Cortéz"?

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;283289Good on ya for writing "Moctezuma", but why not "Cortéz"?

In Bernal Diaz's autobiographical account: "The Conquest of New Spain" He also uses an 's' when spelling 'Cortes'.

I think Tekumel took inspiration from Maya rather than Aztec culture didn't it?

I recommend The Conquest of Mexico by Hugh Thomas, and The Broken Spears by Miguel Leon-Portilla. Both contain good and very detailed overviews of Aztec society just prior to, and during, the Spanish conquest.

Quote from: Jaeger;283301In Bernal Diaz's autobiographical account: "The Conquest of New Spain" He also uses an 's' when spelling 'Cortes'.

Well, smack me with a handle.  As a kid in Mexico, we always spelled it with a 'z', in school.  Huh.  Go figure.

I just think it'd be pretty cool to play a short campaign with a fascinating alien culture that was also actually real and thus worth the effort of learning about, instead of the product of some ultra-weird dork's inner fantasy world.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Jaeger;283301In Bernal Diaz's autobiographical account: "The Conquest of New Spain" He also uses an 's' when spelling 'Cortes'.

In every case, in modern Spanish the correct form of writing his surname is Cortés.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;283306Well, smack me with a handle.  As a kid in Mexico, we always spelled it with a 'z', in school.  Huh.  Go figure.

Huh? In school? What kind of crappy school was that? :confused: Forget it, too much of a tangent, sorry, but I can't help it, bad orthography makes me sick, whatever the language.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;283306Well, smack me with a handle. As a kid in Mexico, we always spelled it with a 'z', in school. Huh. Go figure.

When I worked at a hospital here in Texas, we had a doctor from Spain - Gonsales.  With an 's' at the end, not a 'z'.  He insisted that hispanic surnames with a 'z' were New World spellings, not Old World.
 
IDK, sounds good to me.....

Quote from: Claudius;283388In every case, in modern Spanish the correct form of writing his surname is Cortés.

That's interesting.  I didn't know that.  As to which school, the answer is "all 5 that I attended, public and private", with the caveat that this was 20+ years ago so it's possible I'm misremembering.  Who knows, maybe t is a "New World" thing...?  Sepa la bola.

Quote from: Cole;283082What are your suggestions for scholarly books on the subject that are reasonably layman-friendly?

By reasonably, I mean, does not presume indepth background in mesoamerican studies already.

Well, the novel Aztec by Gary Jennings is available, cheap, and fairly well researched.  It gives a good overview of the worldview of the Aztecs. It messes up the history a little bit for the sake of the story, but nails daily life in Cem Anahuac.

As for a good non-fiction book, try out Aztec Warfare by Ross Hassig.  It focuses on military campaigns and military life, but succinctly explains a lot of Aztec culture...because their way of war wouldn't make any sense otherwise.

Quote from: droog;283112What do you see as required for this?

A system designed specifically for the Aztecs.  Something that does take the auspiciousness of the days into account, but also focuses quite a bit on the "correct" way of acting in particular situations.  I'd like to see a game that could help the non-expert really understand how the Aztecs thought.

If anyone's interested in making an Aztec game, I'd be willing to help.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;283289Good on ya for writing "Moctezuma", but why not "Cortéz"?

Because I couldn't make an accent on my Windows box...and because it's spelled with an "s."

Quote from: RPGPundit;283364I just think it'd be pretty cool to play a short campaign with a fascinating alien culture that was also actually real and thus worth the effort of learning about, instead of the product of some ultra-weird dork's inner fantasy world.

RPGPundit

You're in the wrong hobby for that.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;283487You're in the wrong hobby for that.

There's room in this hobby for that and the opposite.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;283487You're in the wrong hobby for that.

Not true, I explore different cultures all the time in RPGs.  My players love it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;283364I just think it'd be pretty cool to play a short campaign with a fascinating alien culture that was also actually real and thus worth the effort of learning about, instead of the product of some ultra-weird dork's inner fantasy world.

RPGPundit

"Oh God, not another fucking elf."

Oh, we're not talking about him?

Quote from: Claudius;283498There's room in this hobby for that and the opposite.

Everything you play in is the product of some ultra-weird dorks inner world in this hobby.

I mean, you're talking about getting a serious history of the aztecs so you can pretend to be aztecs *As a game*.

Everyone in this hobby is an ultra-weird dork. Pretending it's otherwise is pretentiousness.

Remember, weird is defined from the norm.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;283487You're in the wrong hobby for that.

Not if the GM is an ex- History Prof.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;283521Everything you play in is the product of some ultra-weird dorks inner world in this hobby.

I mean, you're talking about getting a serious history of the aztecs so you can pretend to be aztecs *As a game*.

Everyone in this hobby is an ultra-weird dork. Pretending it's otherwise is pretentiousness.

Remember, weird is defined from the norm.

The "weird" in this case corresponded to the question of "setting":  A world of sword and sorcery with elves and dwarves is not weird, because within fantasy it IS the norm.

A world with two suns and four moons and insect creatures and a dominant culture based on a mix of the ancient olmecs, the assyrians, and the 18th century italian city-states, who practice polyamory and speak 8 different languages, all based on Urdu, which are included in the setting and memorizing about 2000 words of vocab from this made-up language is essentially a pre-requisite of playing the game; that's weird by the fantasy norm standard.

RPGPundit

Yep. Uh-huh.

There's always 'But those guys are weirder!'.

Quote from: RPGPundit;283364I just think it'd be pretty cool to play a short campaign with a fascinating alien culture that was also actually real and thus worth the effort of learning about, instead of the product of some ultra-weird dork's inner fantasy world.

Doesn't this imply that RPGs can improve oneself rather than being just fun for its own sake?  Isn't that blatant swinism/pretension?  I don't disagree, but then I'm swine myself.  The campaign that I'm currently GMing is set in 19th century Korea -- albeit with dragons -- and the PCs have played through the ascension of King Gojong (the last king of korea, and its first emperor), and will shortly be confronting first major contacts with Western powers.  

Apropos the original question, I don't know a lot about the history.  GURPS Aztecs seems fine for source material, though I'm not sure what the ideal system would be like.  Aztecs society seems fairly rigid, so perhaps a class-based system with socially appropriate classes might be good -- at least for a campaign based out of Tenochtitlán.

Quote from: jhkim;283552Doesn't this imply that RPGs can improve oneself rather than being just fun for its own sake?  Isn't that blatant swinism/pretension?

No.

Using real history for roleplaying is as fun and legitimate as just ignoring it, pretension is when you think your style play is superior to the others. "My favorite game is better than your favorite game"

QuoteAztecs society seems fairly rigid, so perhaps a class-based system with socially appropriate classes might be good.

I disagree. Character classes in an RPG have nothing to do with classes in society, they're a way to protect your specialization in the adventure group (you're the traps guy and nobody will be better than you at that).

Quote from: jhkim;283552Doesn't this imply that RPGs can improve oneself rather than being just fun for its own sake?  Isn't that blatant swinism/pretension?  I don't disagree, but then I'm swine myself.  The campaign that I'm currently GMing is set in 19th century Korea -- albeit with dragons -- and the PCs have played through the ascension of King Gojong (the last king of korea, and its first emperor), and will shortly be confronting first major contacts with Western powers.  

Apropos the original question, I don't know a lot about the history.  GURPS Aztecs seems fine for source material, though I'm not sure what the ideal system would be like.  Aztecs society seems fairly rigid, so perhaps a class-based system with socially appropriate classes might be good -- at least for a campaign based out of Tenochtitlán.

The improvement in this case is not due to the roleplaying itself, but by the research required to GM an historical campaign. Its purely peripheral to the actual gaming experience.

RPGPundit

The German FRPG "Midgard" sports an pseudo-Aztec culture called "Nahuatlan". (Which has been known in the Armageddon wargaming campaign of which the game setting has been split as "Huanaca".) It's of course a bit anachronistic with magical assassins as servants of the war god, or with the death god employing slawic-style vampires as celestial servants, but it's the closest thing I know to a ready-made replica of Aztecs in a fantasy setting.


In regards of culture mish-mash, I think there's a healthy middle-ground between "direct rip-off" and "nut-job combo of things Man Was Not Meant To Mix", and that it's a middle-ground where some of the more interesting fantasy cultures are placed. I think for instance of 7th Sea's Vendel (which combines Gustavus the Great's Sweden and the commercially driven enterprising of 16-17th century Netherlands), or in my current homebrew setting for FtA! the Zhodabathi, which are derived a lot from the anachronistic pseudo-malaysian setting of the Sandokan adventure flicks.

Quote from: BillDowns;283394When I worked at a hospital here in Texas, we had a doctor from Spain - Gonsales.  With an 's' at the end, not a 'z'.  He insisted that hispanic surnames with a 'z' were New World spellings, not Old World.
 
IDK, sounds good to me.....

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;283471That's interesting.  I didn't know that.  As to which school, the answer is "all 5 that I attended, public and private", with the caveat that this was 20+ years ago so it's possible I'm misremembering.  Who knows, maybe t is a "New World" thing...?  Sepa la bola.

I'll do my best to explain it. In Spanish there are a lot of surnames with an -ez ending. Originally, they were patronymics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic), but nowadays they're just surnames.

But then, why Cortés is written Cortés and not Cortez? Well, in, as you call it, New World Spanish, there is no difference between the sounds represented by s and z, whereas in Old World Spanish there is a difference. It means that to a native speaker of NW Spanish, Cortes and Cortez sound the same way, whereas to a native speaker of OW Spanish (like myself), they don't. This caused that some surnames that end in -es (like Cortés), which weren't originally patronymics, got reinterpreted as a typical surname in -ez, which they aren't, and that's the reason why you can find Cortés written Cortez. I'll give another example, Hugo Chávez, Chávez is a reintepretation of Chaves, with an -es (like Manuel Chaves, a Spanish politician).

To add more confusion, such surnames like Rodrigues, with an -es ending, do exist, but they are not Spanish, they are Portuguese (and as such, written according to Portuguese orthography). There are a lot of typical Spanish surnames that exist in Portugal, and the other way around (like Carvalho, a very typical Portuguese surname, exist in Spain too as Carvallo).

My apologies for the derailing.

Quote from: Skyrock;283573In regards of culture mish-mash, I think there's a healthy middle-ground between "direct rip-off" and "nut-job combo of things Man Was Not Meant To Mix", and that it's a middle-ground where some of the more interesting fantasy cultures are placed. I think for instance of 7th Sea's Vendel (which combines Gustavus the Great's Sweden and the commercially driven enterprising of 16-17th century Netherlands), or in my current homebrew setting for FtA! the Zhodabathi, which are derived a lot from the anachronistic pseudo-malaysian setting of the Sandokan adventure flicks.

That does sound extremely cool as an FtA! setting!
But I think the point is that you can get as weird as you like if the setting is mostly a background for unbridled adventuring; its once you get into the serious "social" RP that you have to be more thoughtful with what you weird-up.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;283690But I think the point is that you can get as weird as you like if the setting is mostly a background for unbridled adventuring; its once you get into the serious "social" RP that you have to be more thoughtful with what you weird-up.

I agree, which is why an AZtec game is really hard to do if you want the PCs to be Aztecs.  While adventuring parties are built into Aztec society (the pochteca) the social interactions and  ideas of correct behavior get...weird.

Their society was as rigid as feudal Japan, with just as many rules...but they were all different from what you'd expect.

Quote from: RPGPundit;283531A world with two suns and four moons and insect creatures and a dominant culture based on a mix of the ancient olmecs, the assyrians, and the 18th century italian city-states, who practice polyamory and speak 8 different languages, all based on Urdu, which are included in the setting and memorizing about 2000 words of vocab from this made-up language is essentially a pre-requisite of playing the game; that's weird by the fantasy norm standard.

RPGPundit

An amusing little rodomontade, but every single statement in that paragraph is complete and utter bollocks as regards Tekumel (well OK it does have insect creatures - but that's about it)

Some of it is just plain bollocks in anyone's world - 18th Century Italian City States? - there was just two independent city states left in C18 Italy - the decadent Venetian and Genoese Republics.

Never understood Pundit's irrational hatred of poor Professor Barker and all his works - short of actually being Gygax or Arneson could he be any more Old School?

On Aztecs would second recommendation of Ross Hassig's book.

Hugh Thomas is a good modern account of the conquest but is very much from a Spanish perspective.

Inga Clendinnen's Aztecs also does a pretty good job of getting into their heads and conveying the utter alien-ness of the culture.

Did once toy with the idea of running a Pendragon-based Aztec generational campaign starting in the early-mid C15 and running right through to the conquest.

The formation of the triple alliance and the overthrow of the Tepanecs at the start of that period probably has the most potential for a purely Aztec campaign.

Later on you could have fun as an Aztec Pochteca or Rogue Trader boldly going to Yucatan or Texas.

The Spanish conquest itself however would be too depressing to play out - not even a single battle of Camlann to end the saga but just an endless sordid procession of one-sided massacres, betrayals and plagues.

On Aztecs would second recommendation of Ross Hassig's book.

Hugh Thomas is a good modern account of the conquest but is very much from a Spanish perspective.

Inga Clendinnen's Aztecs also does a pretty good job of getting into their heads and conveying the utter alien-ness of the culture.

Did once toy with the idea of running a Pendragon-based Aztec generational campaign starting in the early C15 and running through to the conquest.

(Pendragon may seem a weird choice rules mechanically but Flower Wars have a lot more in common with Arthurian tournaments than with warfare, Glory expressed in mathematically precise terms of enemies captured and sacrificed is the basic game currency and the traits and passions are a pretty good way of getting characters to play as Aztec warriors and priests rather than generic western adventurers in funny costumes).

The formation of the triple alliance and the overthrow of the Tepanecs at the start of that period probably has the most potential for a purely Aztec campaign.

Later on you could have fun as an Aztec Pochteca or Rogue Trader boldly going to Yucatan or Texas.

The Spanish conquest itself however would be kind of depressing to play out and the difficulty of handling it was the main reason I gave up the project.

I don't think I'd play the Conquest either, for the same reasons.

The problem with Clendinnen is that she basically lays out the mindset without explaining a damn thing.  She's a dilettante as an Historian and is a tad lackadaisical with her sources.  I find that she hones in on one or two sources and takes largely from them, tacitly ignoring where those sources are rebuked by later historiography.

Hence why I recommend Hassig.

Bear with me!  I think it would be neat to use the GURPS source book for Aztecs as background/fluff (I got the book, even though I don't own GURPS--I've just always thought that Aztecs were intriguing).  I was an English teacher, by the way.  Oh, and you could play Scion, as children of the Aztec gods/goddesses for pcs.  That sounds like it would be hella-fun to me.

Quote from: teckno72;283852Bear with me!  I think it would be neat to use the GURPS source book for Aztecs as background/fluff (I got the book, even though I don't own GURPS--I've just always thought that Aztecs were intriguing).  I was an English teacher, by the way.  Oh, and you could play Scion, as children of the Aztec gods/goddesses for pcs.  That sounds like it would be hella-fun to me.

I actually did play a Scion PC named Raymundo "Lil Rey" Morales, a child of Huitzilipochtli.  He was a gang-banger in LA.

It was a lot of fun.

On books was assuming that the OP wanted inspirational and background material for an RPG rather than an in-depth literature review.

Sure Clendinnen is a bit of a dilettante - but she writes very well and does convey a lot of fascinating information about Aztec psychology and belief.

Arguably her book is shallower and 'less scholarly' than say David Carrasco's City of Sacrifice but I'd still happily recommend her both to someone who is unlikely to ever read more than a couple of books on the subject and to a serious student looking for pre-course reading.

Hassig is a very different writer - can't remember if he's an actual Marxist but he's far more focused on what tribute lists tell you about the real relationships between the Aztecs and their neighbours.

He's also the best introduction to Aztec warfare - which is usually a subject close to RPGer's hearts.

Taken together Clendinnen and Hassig make a good start - but no more than that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;283690That does sound extremely cool as an FtA! setting!
But I think the point is that you can get as weird as you like if the setting is mostly a background for unbridled adventuring; its once you get into the serious "social" RP that you have to be more thoughtful with what you weird-up.

As Sandokans pseudo-Malaysia has been mostly a cheap (but cool!) excuse to allow a wild-bearded pirate captain to rescue Sultan daughters with cute saris and dots on the forehead from the dirty hands of fez-wearing Kali cultists in the service of Redcoats in front of half-destruct jungle mosquees, and as my setting is so gonzo that there's even a race of faux-christmas elves, I guess "background for unbridled aventuring" in contrast to "serious" fits the bill well enough.