I'm running a heavily modded Pathfinder game set in slightly pre-industrial time. The game is more about investigation then pure adventuring.
The players work for the government and their foes are part of a large secret organization. While Im good at improv, I like setting structure for myself and my players. Otherwise, it's like paying solitaire but every card is a blank I can pick.
Im looking for good faction mechanics for either PF rules neutral, or adaptable to PF. Any suggestions?
Check out either the Faction rules in the free Stars Without Number: Revised rules, or the specific Intelligence Agency turns in Darkness Visible, which is the espionage supplement for Stars Without Number (though for the 99% compatible 1st edition). The latter might be what you are looking for. The rules are all relatively system-neutral.
Both options are solid, though they are for science fiction gaming.
It'd be helpful if we had some idea of what function these mechanics are to serve. Do they generate encounters? Intrigues? NPCs? Are they a GM tool for tracking faction goals and resources...?
You tell us what these rules are trying to do. We'll point you in a good direction.
Quote from: Azraele;1125974It'd be helpful if we had some idea of what function these mechanics are to serve. Do they generate encounters? Intrigues? NPCs? Are they a GM tool for tracking faction goals and resources...?
You tell us what these rules are trying to do. We'll point you in a good direction.
Thanks
Primarily as a way to determine resources at disposal. In this scenario, the PCs (With their Government Backing) is trying to retrieve something from another government while the secret organization is sending its agents to do the same. The thing they are trying to retrieve has potential for stuff on a world scale so both factions have every reason to invest their full resources to get it.
However, no matter how much you want something there are of course limitations. Even an Emperor couldn't just descend all their armies into one spot without consequences.
So I need a way to track how much reasonable resources both sides could divest towards this. For example how much money they can leverage (Can either side just bribe their way into the item), or how much military or magic force they can leverage.
Off the wall suggestion; use the Super-Organization rules from Palladium Books' "Ninjas & Superspies."
It's definitely written with an eye towards "this is what resources agents of the organization can call upon," be it communications, gadget, personal weapons, armed forces, legal cover or just cold hard cash.
ETA: since you mentioned magic, there’s a variation for Heroes Unlimited that I think is found in the Villains Unlimited supplement or one of several found in various Rifts supplements.
Honestly you do not need mechanics for running factions. Just an idea of how each interacts and what, if any, bonuses they provide.
Example in Gamma World each CA has a credo and if you stop at one of their bases you can turn in stuff for some boon. Theres a sentence or two for each mentioning who they dislike or oppose.
Much the same in Planescape with each faction having a credo and alignment pointer and who they might oppose or help.
5e D&D had the various factions and their credos and some simple rules for boons based on what level or standing the PCs are in the organization.
None of these have or need any real mechanics to play.
Quote from: Omega;1126038Honestly you do not need mechanics for running factions.
I knew some smartass would post this, and I should have stuck with gut instinct and asked that people don't give me this utterly useless tip.
I want mechanics for the stuff I feel bored aproximating, or stuff which I want some level of consistency.
Best mechanics for factions I seen are Godbound if you want quick, dirty, and easy mechanics. You want more complexity, then do Stars Without Number.
Seconding the recommendation for the faction mechanics in Godbound and/or Stars Without Number.
Also, the Worlds Without Number beta, available here (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1BXajBbjxwy9Jc6KgFy7f3Rq59NfPCL_w), has a similar system re-fluffed for a Dying Earth / New Sun fantasy setting, which may be more applicable to Pathfinder.
If you don't mind borderline-spergy levels of detail, Adventurer Conqueror King with the Domains at War supplement will tell you exactly how much revenue the faction has, how many goons they can keep on the payroll, and how fast they can shuffle them around.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126041I knew some smartass would post this, and I should have stuck with gut instinct and asked that people don't give me this utterly useless tip.
I want mechanics for the stuff I feel bored aproximating, or stuff which I want some level of consistency.
It's really hard to design a system that generates what you are looking for - it basically has to take account of all the 'friction' (per Clausewitz) that prevents a real life organisation concentrating all its resources at one critical point (schwerpunkt). This simplification is one reason faction-control video games like Civilisation & Total War get vastly easier than real life.
I once had a weird epiphany running 4e D&D, when I realised that the encounter-building mechanics based purely off PC level were giving me *more realistic* encounter results than old 1e AD&D's simulationist mechanics, with its "30-300 Orcs" - because 1e didn't tell me how many orcs the PCs would actually meet at any particular point; there was no friction mechanic, so if I ran it from the Orc POV there was no reason the PCs wouldn't be fighting All The Orcs.
IME having nominal figures for "all resources" available to eg the CIA is likely to result in a less realistic game than a system which simply generates "CIA encounters" - this is the frequency of encounters, this is what a CIA spy/assassination team/drone strike looks like, etc.
Edit: For faction-level play, how about something based on the card game Coup? https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/131357/coup
It's one of the few games with mechanics simple enough to be used in RPG play; it lets you generate Assassinations, Raids/Thefts, and Coups (all out assaults). Assign each faction (government & enemy in your game) a starting amount of money/influence and starting number of agents, and they can accumulate over time and launch attacks on each other & the PCs.
As is already evident from the thread thus far, Sine Nomine has faction systems in most of its products, and they generally tend to be pretty good. Given your specific interest in tracking what resources each faction has and where they're located, I think I'd recommend either Stars Without Number (general sci-fi) or Silent Legions (not-Cthulhu investigations), as the systems in these two products (which are essentially identical) are based in factions establishing bases of influence in various locations, producing assets at those bases, and moving them around to other locations where they can enter into conflicts with other factions' assets.
Darkness Visible was also mentioned, which is also likely worth looking at because its primary focus is on modeling intelligence agencies in conflict with each other, but it doesn't bother with localizing assets to any significant degree. It's good with managing what assets the agency has and their in-game effects for the PCs (e.g., if the agency has extensive armory assets, then the PCs can be issued more equipment for their missions), but it generally assumes that, as long as the PCs are in a location with an agency presence, then all of the agency's assets will be available to them. It may still work for you, though, because it (like all the Sine Nomine faction systems) sets up a pretty tight action economy for factions (usually "NPC factions get one action per month; PC factions get two") which would limit how often the enemy agency could act against the PCs (or the PCs' agency).
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126041I knew some smartass would post this, and I should have stuck with gut instinct and asked that people don't give me this utterly useless tip.
I want mechanics for the stuff I feel bored aproximating, or stuff which I want some level of consistency.
I did give a series of levels of detail starting at none and ending at some.
But thanks for being a jackass. Again.
Quote from: Omega;1126066I did give a series of levels of detail starting at none and ending at some.
But thanks for being a jackass. Again.
Aight. Sorry if you where trying to be helpful but I genuinly did not find that helpful. Its like I was asking for tips on how to stop oil leaking in my car, and you said I didn't need a car and suggested some bicycles.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126041I knew some smartass would post this, and I should have stuck with gut instinct and asked that people don't give me this utterly useless tip.
I want mechanics for the stuff I feel bored aproximating, or stuff which I want some level of consistency.
Don't be a jerk. Nobody likes a jerk.
...
I've got three suggestions, two of which I've battle-tested and have my hearty recommendation. But I'll lead with them in the order of "Least bookkeeping" to "Most bookkeeping"
Least: Fronts, from apocalypse world. (https://blackarmada.com/apocalypse-world-fronts/)
Apocalypse world's thesis seems to be "cut it to the drama bones"; it attempts to give you only what you need for the designer's idea of the "fun" parts of an RPG. But it succeeds in its goals; the result is a lightweight, flexible and essentially system-neutral set of design chunks you can handily plop into the structure of a different campaign. Fronts track very little, but give you a lot of bang for your buck in play. They're a hair's breadth from just deciding things, but they do have structure and internal mechanical rigor without a lot of weighty alterations to any other rules.
Middle: Urbancrawls, from the Alexandrian blog (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/36473/roleplaying-games/thinking-about-urbancrawls)
Justin Alexander's deep dive into converting the logic of hexcrawls and dungeoncrawls into "city-crawl" mechanics is a brilliant thing to behold. Rich, usable, and with depth such that I've been obsessed over it since it came out. It requires a very systematic approach to running games, with weighty prep work, but the end result is a character-driven, deeply satisfying in-game experience. I've used a variant of these rules for my home games for years and I highly recommend mining these articles for inspiration.
Most: Adventurer Conqueror King system's faction mechanics. (http://www.autarch.co/blog/running-thieves-guild-adventurer-conqueror-king)
Adventurer Conqueror King is a crown jewel of OSR-style game design. It's goal was to capture the "Arnesian late-game" of the likes of Blackmoor, where castles, armies and intrigue supplanted the dungeoncrawl as the central tentpole of game activity. It succeeds brilliantly, with a rules set as deep as an ocean and as robust as the finest wine. It's not terribly complex for all it's depth, but it does powerfully benefit from careful tracking of gold and sheets for the costs of maintaining things like standing armies, thieve's guilds, taxes and castles. I use this system as the basis for my home games ever since attempting to run BOTH 5th and Pathfinder, incorporating mechanical tidbits from this, then slowly having it's genius style devour what I can only now consider to be lesser systems. Dense, rich and satisfying; it's the Cadillac of faction mechanics.
Anyway thanks for the help. I think Il roll with Sine Materials.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1125962I'm running a heavily modded Pathfinder game set in slightly pre-industrial time. The game is more about investigation then pure adventuring.
The players work for the government and their foes are part of a large secret organization. While Im good at improv, I like setting structure for myself and my players. Otherwise, it's like paying solitaire but every card is a blank I can pick.
Im looking for good faction mechanics for either PF rules neutral, or adaptable to PF. Any suggestions?
Pathfinder also has the Ultimate Campaign books which includes some light (in scope, but thick in crunch) faction mechanics that integrate with the PF rules more.
But yeah Sine Nomine games also have faction rules from Stars Without Number to Godbound to Silent Legion (cults) to Spears of the Dawn and Other Dust. Warning though, reading a Sine Nomine game may leave you with feelings to run a Sine Nomine game. Wolves of God will also be out soon.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1126090Warning though, reading a Sine Nomine game may leave you with feelings to run a Sine Nomine game.
I know. :mad: