Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 01:49:29 PM

Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 07, 2021, 09:02:39 AM

Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:

"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."

Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.

EXACTLY. Devils & Demons are evil, Angels are good. If they stop being their alignment, they become something else completely.

This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.

The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).

The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.

So exactly like Christian Angels and Demons? Demons after all ARE fallen Angels.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 08, 2021, 01:53:08 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 01:49:29 PM

Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 07, 2021, 09:02:39 AM

Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:

"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."

Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.

EXACTLY. Devils & Demons are evil, Angels are good. If they stop being their alignment, they become something else completely.

This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.

The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).

The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.

So exactly like Christian Angels and Demons? Demons after all ARE fallen Angels.

Yup, and I don't even particularly try to hide it.

The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.

The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 02:45:27 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 08, 2021, 01:53:08 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 01:49:29 PM

Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 07, 2021, 09:02:39 AM

Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:

"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."

Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.

EXACTLY. Devils & Demons are evil, Angels are good. If they stop being their alignment, they become something else completely.

This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.

The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).

The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.

So exactly like Christian Angels and Demons? Demons after all ARE fallen Angels.

Yup, and I don't even particularly try to hide it.

The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.

The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.

Neat, where can we buy it?

I did a bit of a write up for a hell / heaven parallel for GURPS Banestorm.  A  high mana world where the winged humans lived on floating islands in the sky and the toxic, sulfurous surface is inhabited by the dispossessed, criminals, and the fallen.  The advent of Christian ideas on that world was interesting as the "angels" eschewed it and the "demons" embraced it in secret covens and hidden temples.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 08, 2021, 02:47:59 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 02:45:27 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 08, 2021, 01:53:08 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 01:49:29 PM

Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 07, 2021, 09:02:39 AM

Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:

"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."

Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.

EXACTLY. Devils & Demons are evil, Angels are good. If they stop being their alignment, they become something else completely.

This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.

The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).

The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.

So exactly like Christian Angels and Demons? Demons after all ARE fallen Angels.

Yup, and I don't even particularly try to hide it.

The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.

The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.

Neat, where can we buy it?

I'm literally replying to this while taking a break from writing the last two pages of the system.

My next step is doing open beta testing (I'll post something in the Design & Development subforum for that) and Kickstarter prep (I wanted a complete document available for backers before starting any crowdfunding to avoid vaporware concerns... I'm mainly looking to limit my exposure on art costs, the costs of a professional editing pass, various sundry legal/startup expenses and do an initial print run for backers).

So if you're interested; Design & Development subforum when I start open beta is where to look.

Quote from: Jam The MF on October 06, 2021, 09:00:47 PM
There are no good demons.  That's why they're called demons.  They are the embodiment or chaotic evil.

The irony is that the Satanic panic is now justified in the concern that D&D would be portraying evil as good.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 03:41:52 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 08, 2021, 02:47:59 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 02:45:27 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 08, 2021, 01:53:08 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 01:49:29 PM

Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 07, 2021, 09:02:39 AM

Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:

"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."

Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.

EXACTLY. Devils & Demons are evil, Angels are good. If they stop being their alignment, they become something else completely.

This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.

The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).

The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.

So exactly like Christian Angels and Demons? Demons after all ARE fallen Angels.

Yup, and I don't even particularly try to hide it.

The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.

The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.

Neat, where can we buy it?

I'm literally replying to this while taking a break from writing the last two pages of the system.

My next step is doing open beta testing (I'll post something in the Design & Development subforum for that) and Kickstarter prep (I wanted a complete document available for backers before starting any crowdfunding to avoid vaporware concerns... I'm mainly looking to limit my exposure on art costs, the costs of a professional editing pass, various sundry legal/startup expenses and do an initial print run for backers).

So if you're interested; Design & Development subforum when I start open beta is where to look.

NEAT!

Quote from: S'mon on October 07, 2021, 01:40:48 PM
Personally I like the 4e cosmology, where "Angel" just means a celestial servant of the astral gods; and "Demons" are corrupted Elementals, "Devils" are corrupted Angels - but I keep Hell as a prison plane, whatever the Devils say about having killed God and taken His stuff.

I found 4e had the worst take on (usually) everything.

Their cosmology was especially worst.  Just disrespectful to real designers.

As usual, I was exactly RIGHT about the new woke D&D Evolution Edition that WoTC is planning. But in fact, I was off only in that in some ways it's even WORSE than what I'd predicted.

Demons and Devils in my game are Evil. Capital E. Full Stop, do not pass Go, Do Not collect $200.

Whether I am running 1e, 2e, 5e or Candyland.

I'm not a big fan of pushing social agendas in RPGs. I really don't think portraying Nazis as good guys would be in good taste in a game, and the same goes for demons.  With both, there's no heart of gold below the surface that you can reveal, no wholesome element you can find by just looking at them from the right relative viewpoint.  They're just evil, and trying to make them neutral or good only serves to warp  a person's moral fabric.  It doesn't matter if one is religious or not, there is some sort of fundamental morality that decent people share, and portraying demons as good in some show of "look at how socially enlightened I am, I can even be nonjudgmental about demons" violates that innate moral sense on a visceral level.

I really think this is nothing more than a virtue signal of intellectual elitism and a forwarding of left wing ideology.  You would never see them show Nazis in a good light, because it's considered correct by the woke to hate Nazis.  Demons, on the other hand, while objectively more evil than the worst Nazi ever even thought of being in his most twisted nightmares, come from religion and the woke consider themselves superior to superstitious religious troglodytes who go to church and work blue collar jobs so it becomes edgy and cool to present demons as misunderstood or even good.

I believe eventually they will succeed in turning D&D into an unsatisfying game to play.  I think much of the appeal of D&D comes from the appeal of the mythic past and the more WOTC tries to impose their 21st century values on it, the more disconnected the game gets from precisely the thing that lies at the foundation of its appeal.

This applies purely to D&D.  I realize there are some RPGs out there that are specifically about portraying demons and exploring evil, and also some that use "daemons" rather than "demons", beings which come from different traditions and aren't inherently evil.  I'm talking about a standard fantasy game that takes biblical-type demons but makes them non-evil for no particular mechanical or narrative reason, just to flout convention.

Quote from: DocJones on October 08, 2021, 03:46:13 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on October 06, 2021, 09:00:47 PM
There are no good demons.  That's why they're called demons.  They are the embodiment or chaotic evil.

The irony is that the Satanic panic is now justified in the concern that D&D would be portraying evil as good.

Quote from: kidkaos2 on October 08, 2021, 07:12:50 PM
I really don't think portraying Nazis as good guys would be in good taste in a game, and the same goes for demons.  With both, there's no heart of gold below the surface that you can reveal, no wholesome element you can find by just looking at them from the right relative viewpoint.  They're just evil, and trying to make them neutral or good only serves to warp  a person's moral fabric.  It doesn't matter if one is religious or not, there is some sort of fundamental morality that decent people share, and portraying demons as good in some show of "look at how socially enlightened I am, I can even be nonjudgmental about demons" violates that innate moral sense on a visceral level.

First of all, I disagree with kidkaos2's point here. Good Omens doesn't violate any inner moral sense for most decent people. It's non-Christian, but even as a Christian, I could appreciate its message . The same goes for Life of Brian and The Last Temptation of Christ. As a teenager, I went with a group from my church to watch The Last Temptation of Christ, and we discussed it afterwards.

To DocJones' point, the problem with the Satanic panic wasn't that they were aimed at the wrong games - and they should have been burning Fantasy Wargaming instead of D&D.

The problem with the Satanic panic was that all of these are still just paper-and-pencil games. Adults - and even teenagers - can be exposed to ideas, and it doesn't inherently warp their moral fabric. By the time my son was a teenager, I had stopped worrying about what books he might find and keep them from him. He would go to the library on his own, and I trusted him to be able to choose for himself the sort of books he wanted to read.

Quote from: kidkaos2 on October 08, 2021, 07:12:50 PMI really don't think portraying Nazis as good guys would be in good taste in a game, and the same goes for demons.

Unrelated tangent: Nazis where not mudmen that sprung from the earth by the works of an evil wizard. They where normal people that bought into mass hype, and looked for cohesion and promise in a time of turbulence. Most where rightous and good, but did acts of atrocious evil because they where convinced if their rightousness and that the world had wronged them.

But nazis are humans and not wasps. Wasps destroy other species on mass and lay their eggs inside the bodies of their enemies.
A species of giant humanoid wasps would be horrifying and no amount of speeches or recognitions of how 'good or not evil' they are would stop them from being horrific.

Interesting you mention wasp-folk since WotC's UA released today have mantis-folk, hippo-folk, flying-monkey-folk, robot-gnome-folk, ooze-folk, and Astral Elves from the nether region of Uranus.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 08, 2021, 08:32:01 PM
But nazis are humans and not wasps. Wasps destroy other species on mass and lay their eggs inside the bodies of their enemies.
A species of giant humanoid wasps would be horrifying and no amount of speeches or recognitions of how 'good or not evil' they are would stop them from being horrific.

What about a rousing chorus of Kumbayah?   I hear thats good if you are dealing with giant humanoid wasps.