Here are some 5.5e changes:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/creature-evolutions
The most curious part IMO is that I remember when 2e did away with "demons" and "devils", changing their names because... people thought having these EVIL fiends in AD&D were bad influence!!!
Well, I'm guessing the satanic panic is finally over, since these creatures are only TYPICALLY evil:
Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors rule as generals over demonic armies, yearning to seize power while destroying any creatures that oppose them. Wielding a flaming whip and a longsword that channels the power of the storm, a balor's battle prowess is fueled by hatred and rage. It channels this demonic fury in its death throes, falling within a blast of fire that can destroy even the hardiest foes.
I'm guessing you cannot judge a demon by its soul... I mean, who are we to judge if destroying everyone in your path to power is evil?
Well, maybe not all balors rule demonic armies, so the new stat block would read something like that:
TYPICALLY Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors TYPICALLY rule as generals over demonic armies, TYPICALLY yearning to seize power while TYPICALLY destroying any creatures that oppose them.... sometimes fueled by hatred, sometimes by the power of friendship...
All joking aside, I don't really care either way. The "TYPICALLY" is assumed, IMO. Of course you can have a good balor or fallen celestial in your campaign.
Having 6 foot tall dwarves that do not speak dwarvish and have Constitution 8 is also fine by me... probably not something I'd allow at my table without very convincing justification, but "choose your language, ability scores and height according to your race and background" should be okay IMO. It DOES sound a bit ludicrous, I'll admit.
EDIT: in other words, it is mostly cosplay at this point:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/06/fantasy-races-stereotypes-vs-cosplay.html
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
Here are some 5.5e changes:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/creature-evolutions
The most curious part IMO is that I remember when 2e did away with "demons" and "devils", changing their names because... people thought having these EVIL fiends in AD&D were bad influence!!!
Well, I'm guessing the satanic panic is finally over, since these creatures are only TYPICALLY evil:
Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors rule as generals over demonic armies, yearning to seize power while destroying any creatures that oppose them. Wielding a flaming whip and a longsword that channels the power of the storm, a balor's battle prowess is fueled by hatred and rage. It channels this demonic fury in its death throes, falling within a blast of fire that can destroy even the hardiest foes.
I'm guessing you cannot judge a demon by its soul... I mean, who are we to judge if destroying everyone in your path to power is evil?
Well, maybe not all balors rule demonic armies, so the new stat block would read something like that:
TYPICALLY Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors TYPICALLY rule as generals over demonic armies, TYPICALLY yearning to seize power while TYPICALLY destroying any creatures that oppose them.... sometimes fueled by hatred, sometimes by the power of friendship...
All joking aside, I don't really care either way. The "TYPICALLY" is assumed, IMO. Of course you can have a good balor or fallen celestial in your campaign.
Having 6 foot tall dwarves that do not speak dwarvish and have Constitution 8 is also fine by me... probably not something I'd allow at my table without very convincing justification, but "choose your language, ability scores and height according to your race and background" should be okay IMO. It DOES sound a bit ludicrous, I'll admit.
EDIT: in other words, it is mostly cosplay at this point:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/06/fantasy-races-stereotypes-vs-cosplay.html
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
Here are some 5.5e changes:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/creature-evolutions
The most curious part IMO is that I remember when 2e did away with "demons" and "devils", changing their names because... people thought having these EVIL fiends in AD&D were bad influence!!!
Well, I'm guessing the satanic panic is finally over, since these creatures are only TYPICALLY evil:
Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors rule as generals over demonic armies, yearning to seize power while destroying any creatures that oppose them. Wielding a flaming whip and a longsword that channels the power of the storm, a balor's battle prowess is fueled by hatred and rage. It channels this demonic fury in its death throes, falling within a blast of fire that can destroy even the hardiest foes.
I'm guessing you cannot judge a demon by its soul... I mean, who are we to judge if destroying everyone in your path to power is evil?
Well, maybe not all balors rule demonic armies, so the new stat block would read something like that:
TYPICALLY Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors TYPICALLY rule as generals over demonic armies, TYPICALLY yearning to seize power while TYPICALLY destroying any creatures that oppose them.... sometimes fueled by hatred, sometimes by the power of friendship...
All joking aside, I don't really care either way. The "TYPICALLY" is assumed, IMO. Of course you can have a good balor or fallen celestial in your campaign.
Having 6 foot tall dwarves that do not speak dwarvish and have Constitution 8 is also fine by me... probably not something I'd allow at my table without very convincing justification, but "choose your language, ability scores and height according to your race and background" should be okay IMO. It DOES sound a bit ludicrous, I'll admit.
EDIT: in other words, it is mostly cosplay at this point:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/06/fantasy-races-stereotypes-vs-cosplay.html
Define fallen celestial and celestial.
No, you can't have good demons, you might get one that is/was evil and wants to redime himself tho, which should be difficult and a constant struggle against it's evil nature until redemption is achieved, at which point it stops being a fallen celestial (Demon) and becomes an Angel.
Also 6 feet tall Dwarves? Not just no but hell no. I can see the language argument tho, An orphan dwarf was adopted by Elves and only speaks Elvish.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 04:20:11 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
Here are some 5.5e changes:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/creature-evolutions
The most curious part IMO is that I remember when 2e did away with "demons" and "devils", changing their names because... people thought having these EVIL fiends in AD&D were bad influence!!!
Well, I'm guessing the satanic panic is finally over, since these creatures are only TYPICALLY evil:
Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors rule as generals over demonic armies, yearning to seize power while destroying any creatures that oppose them. Wielding a flaming whip and a longsword that channels the power of the storm, a balor's battle prowess is fueled by hatred and rage. It channels this demonic fury in its death throes, falling within a blast of fire that can destroy even the hardiest foes.
I'm guessing you cannot judge a demon by its soul... I mean, who are we to judge if destroying everyone in your path to power is evil?
Well, maybe not all balors rule demonic armies, so the new stat block would read something like that:
TYPICALLY Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors TYPICALLY rule as generals over demonic armies, TYPICALLY yearning to seize power while TYPICALLY destroying any creatures that oppose them.... sometimes fueled by hatred, sometimes by the power of friendship...
All joking aside, I don't really care either way. The "TYPICALLY" is assumed, IMO. Of course you can have a good balor or fallen celestial in your campaign.
Having 6 foot tall dwarves that do not speak dwarvish and have Constitution 8 is also fine by me... probably not something I'd allow at my table without very convincing justification, but "choose your language, ability scores and height according to your race and background" should be okay IMO. It DOES sound a bit ludicrous, I'll admit.
EDIT: in other words, it is mostly cosplay at this point:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/06/fantasy-races-stereotypes-vs-cosplay.html
Define fallen celestial and celestial.
No, you can't have good demons, you might get one that is/was evil and wants to redime himself tho, which should be difficult and a constant struggle against it's evil nature until redemption is achieved, at which point it stops being a fallen celestial (Demon) and becomes an Angel.
Also 6 feet tall Dwarves? Not just no but hell no. I can see the language argument tho, An orphan dwarf was adopted by Elves and only speaks Elvish.
Heck, that's practically a staple. Half-orc raised by humans (or orcs); human raised by dwarves (Discworld, Forgotten Realms); human raised by elves (LOTR); halfling raised by dwarves (a friend's PC from a prior game)...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 04:20:11 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
Here are some 5.5e changes:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/creature-evolutions
The most curious part IMO is that I remember when 2e did away with "demons" and "devils", changing their names because... people thought having these EVIL fiends in AD&D were bad influence!!!
Well, I'm guessing the satanic panic is finally over, since these creatures are only TYPICALLY evil:
Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors rule as generals over demonic armies, yearning to seize power while destroying any creatures that oppose them. Wielding a flaming whip and a longsword that channels the power of the storm, a balor's battle prowess is fueled by hatred and rage. It channels this demonic fury in its death throes, falling within a blast of fire that can destroy even the hardiest foes.
I'm guessing you cannot judge a demon by its soul... I mean, who are we to judge if destroying everyone in your path to power is evil?
Well, maybe not all balors rule demonic armies, so the new stat block would read something like that:
TYPICALLY Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors TYPICALLY rule as generals over demonic armies, TYPICALLY yearning to seize power while TYPICALLY destroying any creatures that oppose them.... sometimes fueled by hatred, sometimes by the power of friendship...
All joking aside, I don't really care either way. The "TYPICALLY" is assumed, IMO. Of course you can have a good balor or fallen celestial in your campaign.
Having 6 foot tall dwarves that do not speak dwarvish and have Constitution 8 is also fine by me... probably not something I'd allow at my table without very convincing justification, but "choose your language, ability scores and height according to your race and background" should be okay IMO. It DOES sound a bit ludicrous, I'll admit.
EDIT: in other words, it is mostly cosplay at this point:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/06/fantasy-races-stereotypes-vs-cosplay.html
Define fallen celestial and celestial.
No, you can't have good demons, you might get one that is/was evil and wants to redime himself tho, which should be difficult and a constant struggle against it's evil nature until redemption is achieved, at which point it stops being a fallen celestial (Demon) and becomes an Angel.
Also 6 feet tall Dwarves? Not just no but hell no. I can see the language argument tho, An orphan dwarf was adopted by Elves and only speaks Elvish.
Both are defined in the 5e SRD: "Celestials are creatures native to the Upper Planes. Many of them are the servants of deities, employed as messengers or agents in the mortal realm and throughout the planes. Celestials are good by nature, so the exceptional celestial who strays from a good alignment is a horrifying rarity. "
I agree that 6 feet tall Dwarves sounds funny, but in "Guards! Guard!" there was a 6-feet tall human who thought of himself as a dwarf, IIRC fought with axes and spoke dwarvish, fancied bearded ladies etc.
(I'm just making conversation at this point, I feel like I have no horse in this race because whatever WotC does at this point won't affect my table much...)
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
Here are some 5.5e changes:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/creature-evolutions
The most curious part IMO is that I remember when 2e did away with "demons" and "devils", changing their names because... people thought having these EVIL fiends in AD&D were bad influence!!!
Well, I'm guessing the satanic panic is finally over, since these creatures are only TYPICALLY evil:
Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors rule as generals over demonic armies, yearning to seize power while destroying any creatures that oppose them. Wielding a flaming whip and a longsword that channels the power of the storm, a balor's battle prowess is fueled by hatred and rage. It channels this demonic fury in its death throes, falling within a blast of fire that can destroy even the hardiest foes.
I'm guessing you cannot judge a demon by its soul... I mean, who are we to judge if destroying everyone in your path to power is evil?
Well, maybe not all balors rule demonic armies, so the new stat block would read something like that:
TYPICALLY Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors TYPICALLY rule as generals over demonic armies, TYPICALLY yearning to seize power while TYPICALLY destroying any creatures that oppose them.... sometimes fueled by hatred, sometimes by the power of friendship...
All joking aside, I don't really care either way. The "TYPICALLY" is assumed, IMO. Of course you can have a good balor or fallen celestial in your campaign.
Having 6 foot tall dwarves that do not speak dwarvish and have Constitution 8 is also fine by me... probably not something I'd allow at my table without very convincing justification, but "choose your language, ability scores and height according to your race and background" should be okay IMO. It DOES sound a bit ludicrous, I'll admit.
EDIT: in other words, it is mostly cosplay at this point:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/06/fantasy-races-stereotypes-vs-cosplay.html
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.
Yup! The 2e MM was my first MM, and still the best IMO. I much prefer baatezu and tanar'ri to devil III or whatever. Also, it sounds more "alien" than demosn and devils, which is nice IMO.
I agree its a cooler name.
But I dislike too much of 'Race as cosplay'. Its demanding too much humanity from the inhuman. In a way its more 'inhumane'. Unless you act exactly human you don't count.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 04:27:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 04:20:11 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
Here are some 5.5e changes:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/creature-evolutions
The most curious part IMO is that I remember when 2e did away with "demons" and "devils", changing their names because... people thought having these EVIL fiends in AD&D were bad influence!!!
Well, I'm guessing the satanic panic is finally over, since these creatures are only TYPICALLY evil:
Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors rule as generals over demonic armies, yearning to seize power while destroying any creatures that oppose them. Wielding a flaming whip and a longsword that channels the power of the storm, a balor's battle prowess is fueled by hatred and rage. It channels this demonic fury in its death throes, falling within a blast of fire that can destroy even the hardiest foes.
I'm guessing you cannot judge a demon by its soul... I mean, who are we to judge if destroying everyone in your path to power is evil?
Well, maybe not all balors rule demonic armies, so the new stat block would read something like that:
TYPICALLY Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors TYPICALLY rule as generals over demonic armies, TYPICALLY yearning to seize power while TYPICALLY destroying any creatures that oppose them.... sometimes fueled by hatred, sometimes by the power of friendship...
All joking aside, I don't really care either way. The "TYPICALLY" is assumed, IMO. Of course you can have a good balor or fallen celestial in your campaign.
Having 6 foot tall dwarves that do not speak dwarvish and have Constitution 8 is also fine by me... probably not something I'd allow at my table without very convincing justification, but "choose your language, ability scores and height according to your race and background" should be okay IMO. It DOES sound a bit ludicrous, I'll admit.
EDIT: in other words, it is mostly cosplay at this point:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/06/fantasy-races-stereotypes-vs-cosplay.html
Define fallen celestial and celestial.
No, you can't have good demons, you might get one that is/was evil and wants to redime himself tho, which should be difficult and a constant struggle against it's evil nature until redemption is achieved, at which point it stops being a fallen celestial (Demon) and becomes an Angel.
Also 6 feet tall Dwarves? Not just no but hell no. I can see the language argument tho, An orphan dwarf was adopted by Elves and only speaks Elvish.
Both are defined in the 5e SRD: "Celestials are creatures native to the Upper Planes. Many of them are the servants of deities, employed as messengers or agents in the mortal realm and throughout the planes. Celestials are good by nature, so the exceptional celestial who strays from a good alignment is a horrifying rarity. "
I agree that 6 feet tall Dwarves sounds funny, but in "Guards! Guard!" there was a 6-feet tall human who thought of himself as a dwarf, IIRC fought with axes and spoke dwarvish, fancied bearded ladies etc.
So either a delusional individual or what we might call a cultural Dwarf, a human adopted by Dwarves maybe? But not really a Dwarf.
So Demons are and should be EVIL.The exceptional celestial that strays from Good becomes a Demon and is thrown into the Demonic planes.
But this doesn't surprize me from "You can have a dark taint without serious repercusions in our Ravensoft book" WotC.
I'm not even angry nor disapointed, I'm just disagreeing and pointing and laughing at them.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 04:33:13 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 04:27:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 04:20:11 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
Here are some 5.5e changes:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/creature-evolutions
The most curious part IMO is that I remember when 2e did away with "demons" and "devils", changing their names because... people thought having these EVIL fiends in AD&D were bad influence!!!
Well, I'm guessing the satanic panic is finally over, since these creatures are only TYPICALLY evil:
Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors rule as generals over demonic armies, yearning to seize power while destroying any creatures that oppose them. Wielding a flaming whip and a longsword that channels the power of the storm, a balor's battle prowess is fueled by hatred and rage. It channels this demonic fury in its death throes, falling within a blast of fire that can destroy even the hardiest foes.
I'm guessing you cannot judge a demon by its soul... I mean, who are we to judge if destroying everyone in your path to power is evil?
Well, maybe not all balors rule demonic armies, so the new stat block would read something like that:
TYPICALLY Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors TYPICALLY rule as generals over demonic armies, TYPICALLY yearning to seize power while TYPICALLY destroying any creatures that oppose them.... sometimes fueled by hatred, sometimes by the power of friendship...
All joking aside, I don't really care either way. The "TYPICALLY" is assumed, IMO. Of course you can have a good balor or fallen celestial in your campaign.
Having 6 foot tall dwarves that do not speak dwarvish and have Constitution 8 is also fine by me... probably not something I'd allow at my table without very convincing justification, but "choose your language, ability scores and height according to your race and background" should be okay IMO. It DOES sound a bit ludicrous, I'll admit.
EDIT: in other words, it is mostly cosplay at this point:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/06/fantasy-races-stereotypes-vs-cosplay.html
Define fallen celestial and celestial.
No, you can't have good demons, you might get one that is/was evil and wants to redime himself tho, which should be difficult and a constant struggle against it's evil nature until redemption is achieved, at which point it stops being a fallen celestial (Demon) and becomes an Angel.
Also 6 feet tall Dwarves? Not just no but hell no. I can see the language argument tho, An orphan dwarf was adopted by Elves and only speaks Elvish.
Both are defined in the 5e SRD: "Celestials are creatures native to the Upper Planes. Many of them are the servants of deities, employed as messengers or agents in the mortal realm and throughout the planes. Celestials are good by nature, so the exceptional celestial who strays from a good alignment is a horrifying rarity. "
I agree that 6 feet tall Dwarves sounds funny, but in "Guards! Guard!" there was a 6-feet tall human who thought of himself as a dwarf, IIRC fought with axes and spoke dwarvish, fancied bearded ladies etc.
So either a delusional individual or what we might call a cultural Dwarf, a human adopted by Dwarves maybe? But not really a Dwarf.
So Demons are and should be EVIL.The exceptional celestial that strays from Good becomes a Demon and is thrown into the Demonic planes.
But this doesn't surprize me from "You can have a dark taint without serious repercusions in our Ravensoft book" WotC.
I'm not even angry nor disapointed, I'm just disagreeing and pointing and laughing at them.
It's like you want people to bleach their taints.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.
Originally devils and demons had their own names (devils and demons) and on the other hand you like the new own names better?
Meh. No.
At my (5e) table, Demons are Evil, with a capital E. Every. Time. They will murder, mutilate, fold, spindle, devour and assault you. They are made of Evil and that's what they do.
Devils too. Although they're more likely to try to sell you a 12yo Camero at 23%APR with a balloon payment at the end.
Quick Quiz!
If you start with an Evil soul, torment it for centuries, allow it an atmosphere where backstabbing, cruelty and Intimidation are the norms for promotion for centuries more, you get a:
1: Demon or Devil. 100% Evil, Kill it on sight. Do we need +2 or Better weapons to hit? Silver or Cold Iron?
2. Same, but we call them Tanarri or Baatzu.
3. Hold on. I got 6 more pages to optimize my Demonkiller Prestige class to fight this.
4. A WotC game designer.
5. Tall dark cutie with horns and rippling abs! A pointed tail that might be prehensile to do...things. Wanna walk up and say Hi? You can roll Persuasion.
Quote from: DM_Curt on October 05, 2021, 05:38:35 PM
Meh. No.
At my (5e) table, Demons are Evil, with a capital E. Every. Time. They will murder, mutilate, fold, spindle, devour and assault you. They are made of Evil and that's what they do.
Devils too. Although they're more likely to try to sell you a 12yo Camero at 23%APR with a balloon payment at the end.
Quick Quiz!
If you start with an Evil soul, torment it for centuries, allow it an atmosphere where backstabbing, cruelty and Intimidation are the norms for promotion for centuries more, you get a:
1: Demon or Devil. 100% Evil, Kill it on sight. Do we need +2 or Better weapons to hit? Silver or Cold Iron?
2. Same, but we call them Tanarri or Baatzu.
3. Hold on. I got 6 more pages to optimize my Demonkiller Prestige class to fight this.
4. A WotC game designer.
5. Tall dark cutie with horns and rippling abs! A pointed tail that might be prehensile to do...things. Wanna walk up and say Hi? You can roll Persuasion.
I went with random and rolled a 6. Will that be in the errata?
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 04:27:04 PM
I agree that 6 feet tall Dwarves sounds funny, but in "Guards! Guard!" there was a 6-feet tall human who thought of himself as a dwarf, IIRC fought with axes and spoke dwarvish, fancied bearded ladies etc.
(I'm just making conversation at this point, I feel like I have no horse in this race because whatever WotC does at this point won't affect my table much...)
Captain Carrot was raised by Dwarves and thought of himself internally as a very odd dwarf but was understood by his parents, and others, and intellectually by himself to be a human being raised by dwarfs. He was confused about it somewhat until he made a connection with Angua (a werewolf) but was a big athletic big jobs who lived by Dwarfish customs like hard bread and not looking under someone's beard without asking first.
Quote from: DM_Curt on October 05, 2021, 05:38:35 PM
Meh. No.
At my (5e) table, Demons are Evil, with a capital E. Every. Time. They will murder, mutilate, fold, spindle, devour and assault you. They are made of Evil and that's what they do.
Devils too. Although they're more likely to try to sell you a 12yo Camero at 23%APR with a balloon payment at the end.
Quick Quiz!
If you start with an Evil soul, torment it for centuries, allow it an atmosphere where backstabbing, cruelty and Intimidation are the norms for promotion for centuries more, you get a:
1: Demon or Devil. 100% Evil, Kill it on sight. Do we need +2 or Better weapons to hit? Silver or Cold Iron?
2. Same, but we call them Tanarri or Baatzu.
3. Hold on. I got 6 more pages to optimize my Demonkiller Prestige class to fight this.
4. A WotC game designer.
5. Tall dark cutie with horns and rippling abs! A pointed tail that might be prehensile to do...things. Wanna walk up and say Hi? You can roll Persuasion.
I'm thorn between 1&2 and/or 4
Quote from: palaeomerus on October 05, 2021, 05:45:26 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 04:27:04 PM
I agree that 6 feet tall Dwarves sounds funny, but in "Guards! Guard!" there was a 6-feet tall human who thought of himself as a dwarf, IIRC fought with axes and spoke dwarvish, fancied bearded ladies etc.
(I'm just making conversation at this point, I feel like I have no horse in this race because whatever WotC does at this point won't affect my table much...)
Captain Carrot was raised by Dwarves and thought of himself internally as a very odd dwarf but was understood by his parents, and others, and intellectually by himself to be a human being raised by dwarfs. He was confused about it somewhat until he made a connection with Angua (a werewolf) but was a big athletic big jobs who lived by Dwarfish customs like hard bread and not looking under someone's beard without asking first.
I was thinking of a Human raised by Tinker Gnomes. We'll call him "Buddy", and see how long we can go before the DM kicks me in the shins for playing Will Ferrel in "Elf".
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 05:46:47 PM
Quote from: DM_Curt on October 05, 2021, 05:38:35 PM
Meh. No.
At my (5e) table, Demons are Evil, with a capital E. Every. Time. They will murder, mutilate, fold, spindle, devour and assault you. They are made of Evil and that's what they do.
Devils too. Although they're more likely to try to sell you a 12yo Camero at 23%APR with a balloon payment at the end.
Quick Quiz!
If you start with an Evil soul, torment it for centuries, allow it an atmosphere where backstabbing, cruelty and Intimidation are the norms for promotion for centuries more, you get a:
1: Demon or Devil. 100% Evil, Kill it on sight. Do we need +2 or Better weapons to hit? Silver or Cold Iron?
2. Same, but we call them Tanarri or Baatzu.
3. Hold on. I got 6 more pages to optimize my Demonkiller Prestige class to fight this.
4. A WotC game designer.
5. Tall dark cutie with horns and rippling abs! A pointed tail that might be prehensile to do...things. Wanna walk up and say Hi? You can roll Persuasion.
I'm thorn between 1&2 and/or 4
4 is a trick answer. WotC quit hiring game designers.
Quote from: DM_Curt on October 05, 2021, 05:54:18 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 05:46:47 PM
Quote from: DM_Curt on October 05, 2021, 05:38:35 PM
Meh. No.
At my (5e) table, Demons are Evil, with a capital E. Every. Time. They will murder, mutilate, fold, spindle, devour and assault you. They are made of Evil and that's what they do.
Devils too. Although they're more likely to try to sell you a 12yo Camero at 23%APR with a balloon payment at the end.
Quick Quiz!
If you start with an Evil soul, torment it for centuries, allow it an atmosphere where backstabbing, cruelty and Intimidation are the norms for promotion for centuries more, you get a:
1: Demon or Devil. 100% Evil, Kill it on sight. Do we need +2 or Better weapons to hit? Silver or Cold Iron?
2. Same, but we call them Tanarri or Baatzu.
3. Hold on. I got 6 more pages to optimize my Demonkiller Prestige class to fight this.
4. A WotC game designer.
5. Tall dark cutie with horns and rippling abs! A pointed tail that might be prehensile to do...things. Wanna walk up and say Hi? You can roll Persuasion.
I'm thorn between 1&2 and/or 4
4 is a trick answer. WotC quit hiring game designers.
Thanks, now I have to clean the coffee I spat and coughed all over my desk. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.
Sources like Spawn, Good Omens, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have had good demons. Sources like The Prophecy and Supernatural had evil-ish angels.
Do people see these as being part of an SJW trend? I've frequently enjoyed these in fiction, and it doesn't seem that recent to me.
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:27:07 PM
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.
Sources like Spawn, Good Omens, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have had good demons. Sources like The Prophecy and Supernatural had evil-ish angels.
Do people see these as being part of an SJW trend? I've frequently enjoyed these in fiction, and it doesn't seem that recent to me.
Because the ideology behind the SJWs just spawned into being when they appeared in the secene right?
Not to mention that Spawn isn't a demon, he made a deal with one.
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:27:07 PM
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.
Sources like Spawn, Good Omens, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have had good demons. Sources like The Prophecy and Supernatural had evil-ish angels.
Do people see these as being part of an SJW trend? I've frequently enjoyed these in fiction, and it doesn't seem that recent to me.
Not just that, but in d&d, most demons and devils are not fallen celestial, just as a cat is not a fallen dog. There have been fallen celestial that have allied with devils--and some have become devils themselves through the power of Asmodeus (as a god, not merely an archdevil)--but those are the exceptions, not the norm.
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:27:07 PM
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.
To the point that good angels is actually a novelty in modern times. Im kinda sick of evil angels.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 05, 2021, 06:41:33 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:27:07 PM
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.
To the point that good angels is actually a novelty in modern times. Im kinda sick of evil angels.
Or eveb the more common Lawful Neutral (Asshole) angels.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 06:35:21 PM
Because the ideology behind the SJWs just spawned into being when they appeared in the secene right?
Not to mention that Spawn isn't a demon, he made a deal with one.
As I remember it, making a deal with a demon changed Simmons into a Hellspawn, which is a kind of demon. That's what most demons are in that universe - transformed souls of humans condemned to Hell. In any case, the trend goes back earlier, though, like Jack Kirby's Etrigan that debuted in 1972 - who was never human, though he was bound to one.
Did you like any of these, GeekyBugle? While the trope has had its ups and downs, I've enjoyed a number of them.
That said, I agree with Shrieking Banshee that asshole angels are overdone. It especially bugged me in the Supernatural series. If demons are truly supernaturally evil, then there should be true supernatural good.
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:59:55 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 06:35:21 PM
Because the ideology behind the SJWs just spawned into being when they appeared in the secene right?
Not to mention that Spawn isn't a demon, he made a deal with one.
As I remember it, making a deal with a demon changed Simmons into a Hellspawn, which is a kind of demon. That's what most demons are in that universe - transformed souls of humans condemned to Hell. In any case, the trend goes back earlier, though, like Jack Kirby's Etrigan that debuted in 1972 - who was never human, though he was bound to one.
Did you like any of these, GeekyBugle? While the trope has had its ups and downs, I've enjoyed a number of them.
That said, I agree with Shrieking Banshee that asshole angels are overdone. It especially bugged me in the Supernatural series. If demons are truly supernaturally evil, then there should be true supernatural good.
Wrong, Simmons wears the Hellspawn, and has to fight to control it.
Is Etrigan good tho? Nope, it's a Demon and does Good because Merlin bonded him to Jason Blood. It has been shown time and again that without Blood the Demon is Evil, but you keep arguing against stuff I know so well. It's fun!
Edited to add:
It's been overdone because of certain ideology that HATES anything that smells of Christian values, and that's based on everything being subjective, even truth (my truth), this ideology needs to demolish the very human notion that evil does exist (even some Atheists would recognize somethings as Evil), because only then can it become dominant in a culture.
Which is why they infect every subculture including RPGs.
Does D&D have a unified pantheon these days? How can you have evil without that? First define good, then you can have evil. If you have multiple gods who are poorly defined, then what's good?
9-point alignment is stupid. We should have never left Law/Neutral/Chaos. That was clear. God is lawful, hence men are lawful. Demons are chaotic and therefore they are evil to God. Don't worship God? Then you could be neutral or chaotic like a dirty elf.
Quote from: rytrasmi on October 05, 2021, 07:46:39 PM
Does D&D have a unified pantheon these days? How can you have evil without that? First define good, then you can have evil. If you have multiple gods who are poorly defined, then what's good?
9-point alignment is stupid. We should have never left Law/Neutral/Chaos. That was clear. God is lawful, hence men are lawful. Demons are chaotic and therefore they are evil to God. Don't worship God? Then you could be neutral or chaotic like a dirty elf.
It's all relative, there's no good and no evil, everybody is equal in everything, soon you'll be playing D&D the Grey blob simulator, where your grey blob goes on adventures with the other grey blobs on the grey blob world and never have to kill another grey blob.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 07:07:40 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:59:55 PM
I agree with Shrieking Banshee that asshole angels are overdone. It especially bugged me in the Supernatural series. If demons are truly supernaturally evil, then there should be true supernatural good.
It's been overdone because of certain ideology that HATES anything that smells of Christian values, and that's based on everything being subjective, even truth (my truth), this ideology needs to demolish the very human notion that evil does exist (even some Atheists would recognize somethings as Evil), because only then can it become dominant in a culture.
While anti-Christian sentiment does exist, I don't think it's inherent in the modern mixing of demons and angels. (And I say this as a practicing Christian.) Personally, I feel redemption and forgiveness are at the core of Christian values. For example, I enjoyed Good Omens more than The Omen which it was parodying -- and I think it even was closer to Christian values. The Omen tried to make it a good act to murder a toddler because of his birth - while Good Omens instead had forgiveness and redemption of the child.
In any case, D&D has *never* been Christian. From the start, it has gone with paganism/polytheism.
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 08:18:52 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 07:07:40 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:59:55 PM
I agree with Shrieking Banshee that asshole angels are overdone. It especially bugged me in the Supernatural series. If demons are truly supernaturally evil, then there should be true supernatural good.
It's been overdone because of certain ideology that HATES anything that smells of Christian values, and that's based on everything being subjective, even truth (my truth), this ideology needs to demolish the very human notion that evil does exist (even some Atheists would recognize somethings as Evil), because only then can it become dominant in a culture.
While anti-Christian sentiment does exist, I don't think it's inherent in the modern mixing of demons and angels. (And I say this as a practicing Christian.) Personally, I feel redemption and forgiveness are at the core of Christian values. For example, I enjoyed Good Omens more than The Omen which it was parodying -- and I think it even was closer to Christian values. The Omen tried to make it a good act to murder a toddler because of his birth - while Good Omens instead had forgiveness and redemption of the child.
In any case, D&D has *never* been Christian. From the start, it has gone with paganism/polytheism.
Which is why the Cleric (and latter the Paladin too) is modelled after a Christian warrior monk.
Yeah D&D was never Christian, Doesn't mean their pantheon ever worked, as far as I know most polytheist religions have it's demons and angels, clearly deliniated as Evil the first and Good the second. Some even call everything gods, Lesser gods and demigods and still mantain a clear delineation between good and evil. Care to try again?
Yep, redemption is at the core of Christianity, and it involves repentance, penance, forgiveness. You need to repent, renounce the Devil, make penence to earn forgiveness.
Like I said several posts ago, a Demon might become Good, by following that exact path above, and it should be a strugle to finally achieve forgiveness and stop being a Demon. Ergo you can't have Good Demons or Evil Angels.
Or let me put it in a different way, fallen Angels already have a name, we call them Demons, likewise good "demons" already have a name, we call them angels. It's basic Theology my dude.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 08:33:35 PM
Like I said several posts ago, a Demon might become Good, by following that exact path above, and it should be a strugle to finally achieve forgiveness and stop being a Demon. Ergo you can't have Good Demons or Evil Angels.
Or let me put it in a different way, fallen Angels already have a name, we call them Demons, likewise good "demons" already have a name, we call them angels. It's basic Theology my dude.
Part of the problem with drawing the parallel is that, at least in Catholic theology, angels can no longer fall and demons can no longer repent--the former because they now possess the Beatific Vision and are thus confirmed in goodness; the latter, because they made their choice with a complete understanding and full commitment of the will.
This is one of several reasons that I prefer to refer to the D&D creatures as 'fiends' and 'celestials'--they're too material, mutable, and weak for me to find them realistic representations of the real things. :)
Quote from: rytrasmi on October 05, 2021, 07:46:39 PM
9-point alignment is stupid. We should have never left Law/Neutral/Chaos. That was clear. God is lawful, hence men are lawful. Demons are chaotic and therefore they are evil to God. Don't worship God? Then you could be neutral or chaotic like a dirty elf.
Nine-point alignment may be salvageable, but it's tough to reconcile with the "Law and Chaos as cosmic sides" approach of the earliest material and with other elements. I actually read the famous Gygax editorial on paladin behavior a few months back, and it felt like attempts to fit a paladin into the polytheistic model that had emerged resulted in a divine command ethics that wound up feeling confusing, arbitrary, and Chaotic. :)
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 05, 2021, 06:41:33 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:27:07 PM
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.
To the point that good angels is actually a novelty in modern times. Im kinda sick of evil angels.
Concur.
There should be a word for when someone tries to be edgy and contrarian,
in the exact same way as everyone else. It would have nearly infinite uses in fiction and politics.
Quote from: rytrasmi on October 05, 2021, 07:46:39 PM
Does D&D have a unified pantheon these days? How can you have evil without that? First define good, then you can have evil. If you have multiple gods who are poorly defined, then what's good?
9-point alignment is stupid. We should have never left Law/Neutral/Chaos. That was clear. God is lawful, hence men are lawful. Demons are chaotic and therefore they are evil to God. Don't worship God? Then you could be neutral or chaotic like a dirty elf.
Firstly, don't start with gods. Start with religions. Religions define good and evil. So use their definitions. That way, it's perfectly fine if you have paladins holy smiting other paladins, as long as they come from different traditions where the other's point of view is defined as evil. From a D&D cosmological standpoint, each religion would have their own set of divine realms in the astral, instead of everything being forced onto a wheel with 16 spokes. You'd probably have to ditch law and chaos as universals, though.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 05, 2021, 08:38:13 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 08:33:35 PM
Like I said several posts ago, a Demon might become Good, by following that exact path above, and it should be a strugle to finally achieve forgiveness and stop being a Demon. Ergo you can't have Good Demons or Evil Angels.
Or let me put it in a different way, fallen Angels already have a name, we call them Demons, likewise good "demons" already have a name, we call them angels. It's basic Theology my dude.
Part of the problem with drawing the parallel is that, at least in Catholic theology, angels can no longer fall and demons can no longer repent--the former because they now possess the Beatific Vision and are thus confirmed in goodness; the latter, because they made their choice with a complete understanding and full commitment of the will.
This is one of several reasons that I prefer to refer to the D&D creatures as 'fiends' and 'celestials'--they're too material, mutable, and weak for me to find them realistic representations of the real things. :)
True, but lets say you're a practicing Christian and want to write some fiction with a small amount of the real thing in it for verosimilitude and yet have those in your fiction, you would need to follow the path I delineated. Just to make it seem possible without going too deep into the Theology.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 08:48:59 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 05, 2021, 08:38:13 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 08:33:35 PM
Like I said several posts ago, a Demon might become Good, by following that exact path above, and it should be a strugle to finally achieve forgiveness and stop being a Demon. Ergo you can't have Good Demons or Evil Angels.
Or let me put it in a different way, fallen Angels already have a name, we call them Demons, likewise good "demons" already have a name, we call them angels. It's basic Theology my dude.
Part of the problem with drawing the parallel is that, at least in Catholic theology, angels can no longer fall and demons can no longer repent--the former because they now possess the Beatific Vision and are thus confirmed in goodness; the latter, because they made their choice with a complete understanding and full commitment of the will.
This is one of several reasons that I prefer to refer to the D&D creatures as 'fiends' and 'celestials'--they're too material, mutable, and weak for me to find them realistic representations of the real things. :)
True, but lets say you're a practicing Christian and want to write some fiction with a small amount of the real thing in it for verosimilitude and yet have those in your fiction, you would need to follow the path I delineated. Just to make it seem possible without going too deep into the Theology.
Yep. I suffer from the curse of the expert in this regard, but you can have works that are thematically solid while taking liberties with the details.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 05, 2021, 09:11:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 08:48:59 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 05, 2021, 08:38:13 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 05, 2021, 08:33:35 PM
Like I said several posts ago, a Demon might become Good, by following that exact path above, and it should be a strugle to finally achieve forgiveness and stop being a Demon. Ergo you can't have Good Demons or Evil Angels.
Or let me put it in a different way, fallen Angels already have a name, we call them Demons, likewise good "demons" already have a name, we call them angels. It's basic Theology my dude.
Part of the problem with drawing the parallel is that, at least in Catholic theology, angels can no longer fall and demons can no longer repent--the former because they now possess the Beatific Vision and are thus confirmed in goodness; the latter, because they made their choice with a complete understanding and full commitment of the will.
This is one of several reasons that I prefer to refer to the D&D creatures as 'fiends' and 'celestials'--they're too material, mutable, and weak for me to find them realistic representations of the real things. :)
True, but lets say you're a practicing Christian and want to write some fiction with a small amount of the real thing in it for verosimilitude and yet have those in your fiction, you would need to follow the path I delineated. Just to make it seem possible without going too deep into the Theology.
Yep. I suffer from the curse of the expert in this regard, but you can have works that are thematically solid while taking liberties with the details.
Same here, but I was trying to make it possible to have evil angels and good demons from thw word go, which is why I took only enough of the Theology to make it verosimil for the casual reader.
And it wopuld work perfectly in an RPG: Say you want to play a Tiefling, a Good one, well, since Tieflings (in my houserules) are born evil you'll need to go thru a redemption arch, not unlike to the redemption quest for a Paladin that strayed from the true path.
At the end of it, after strugling with your nature, if you succeed you'll become something else, an aasimar. Which will also change your powers of course.
I've only had the one player that wanted to play a Tiefling go thru, most refuse to play at my table or choose a different race. Which is fine with me since I dislike with a passion the special snowflake races.
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:27:07 PM
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.
Sources like Spawn, Good Omens, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have had good demons. Sources like The Prophecy and Supernatural had evil-ish angels.
Do people see these as being part of an SJW trend? I've frequently enjoyed these in fiction, and it doesn't seem that recent to me.
Since the 80s? Well, we could say since William Blake or even Milton (making Lucifer a compelling figure) and Dante (Hell is a lot cooler... okay, that's a stretch).
I just think it is ironic that 2e did away with them, and now good-aligned demons are part of RAW.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
TYPICALLY Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors TYPICALLY rule as generals over demonic armies, TYPICALLY yearning to seize power while TYPICALLY destroying any creatures that oppose them.... sometimes fueled by hatred, sometimes by the power of friendship...
I thought you were exaggerating until I read the link. WOTC takes a break from alignment for two products, while they thoughtfully reconsider the issue, and their profound solution is "typically?"
More amused than outraged.
i like the new rule on languages: New characters start knowing Common and one other language that you and your DM agree is appropriate for your character. EDIT: And the monster stat block looks nice.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 09:18:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:27:07 PM
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.
Sources like Spawn, Good Omens, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have had good demons. Sources like The Prophecy and Supernatural had evil-ish angels.
Do people see these as being part of an SJW trend? I've frequently enjoyed these in fiction, and it doesn't seem that recent to me.
Since the 80s? Well, we could say since William Blake or even Milton (making Lucifer a compelling figure) and Dante (Hell is a lot cooler... okay, that's a stretch).
I just think it is ironic that 2e did away with them, and now good-aligned demons are part of RAW.
If the religious censors still had any political or social power making even some Demons Good and even some Angels evil this would reignite the satanic panic.
Good thing they don't.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good demons to do nothing.
Still, representing the forces of light as hate filled, bigoted, and intolerant certainly has some history in fantasy literature.
Milton certainly makes Lucifer, his protagonist, a heroic figure with noble sentiments.
In the end, these are fantasy games and the bad guys should at least have the decency to wear black Stetsons.
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2021, 06:27:07 PMEver since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels. Sources like Spawn, Good Omens, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have had good demons. Sources like The Prophecy and Supernatural had evil-ish angels.
Do people see these as being part of an SJW trend?
The idea that individual angels could fall or demons find redemption isn't an SJ trope. The implication that "good and evil" are simply individual, equally meaningless labels chosen by equally nasty and unsympathetic beings solely to differentiate themselves -- basically no more than supernatural "gang colours" -- definitely is, and it's what too many instances of the "bad angels / sympathetic demons" trope are used to do.
I can live with angels that might be caught up in the big picture or not quite understand human frailties. But Geeky has it right; the whole 'evil angel' idea is worn out.
I don't know if you'll remember, back in the day on ENWorld there was/is a poster named Sepulcrave, or something like that, that had a killer story hour. The premise was there was a succubus that wanted to be redeemed. Seps world (Tales of Wyre) is heavily influenced by religion (but I think Sep studied religions). I think his thread is still there, some poster even made a combined pdf. I highly recommend.
So I don't have a problem with fallen angels/redeemable fiends... .... .... if the game master says so. But in my world, all devils/demons are pure "Evil" and the celestials are "Good"... .. ... unless I say so as the game master.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on October 06, 2021, 10:42:10 AM
I don't know if you'll remember, back in the day on ENWorld there was/is a poster named Sepulcrave, or something like that, that had a killer story hour. The premise was there was a succubus that wanted to be redeemed. Seps world (Tales of Wyre) is heavily influenced by religion (but I think Sep studied religions). I think his thread is still there, some poster even made a combined pdf. I highly recommend.
So I don't have a problem with fallen angels/redeemable fiends... .... .... if the game master says so. But in my world, all devils/demons are pure "Evil" and the celestials are "Good"... .. ... unless I say so as the game master.
Thing is, if you can have Good Demons (not redeemed ones that would stop being Demons) and Evil Angels (not Demons that is what Evil Angels are but Angels that manage to be Evil and Angelic) then redemption looses it's meaning.
In order for redemption to work you need the two extremes fixed and never thw two shall meet. This is the road you must travel to earn redemption.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 06, 2021, 11:04:53 AM
Thing is, if you can have Good Demons (not redeemed ones that would stop being Demons) and Evil Angels (not Demons that is what Evil Angels are but Angels that manage to be Evil and Angelic) then redemption looses it's meaning.
In order for redemption to work you need the two extremes fixed and never thw two shall meet. This is the road you must travel to earn redemption.
Oh I agree. I hate the bullshit that's done in anime/comics/whatever, it seems like it was/is the rage. And but for this one instance (cause a lot of Seps stuff flew way over my head) I've not seen it done well.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 06, 2021, 11:04:53 AM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on October 06, 2021, 10:42:10 AM
I don't know if you'll remember, back in the day on ENWorld there was/is a poster named Sepulcrave, or something like that, that had a killer story hour. The premise was there was a succubus that wanted to be redeemed. Seps world (Tales of Wyre) is heavily influenced by religion (but I think Sep studied religions). I think his thread is still there, some poster even made a combined pdf. I highly recommend.
So I don't have a problem with fallen angels/redeemable fiends... .... .... if the game master says so. But in my world, all devils/demons are pure "Evil" and the celestials are "Good"... .. ... unless I say so as the game master.
Thing is, if you can have Good Demons (not redeemed ones that would stop being Demons) and Evil Angels (not Demons that is what Evil Angels are but Angels that manage to be Evil and Angelic) then redemption looses it's meaning.
In order for redemption to work you need the two extremes fixed and never thw two shall meet. This is the road you must travel to earn redemption.
You might want to read Sepulchrave's Tales of Wyre story hour. It's not just the best gaming fiction I've ever read, but one of the best fantasy stories of any kind. The path of Nahael's redemption is not between two poles, though the story is heavily influenced by a deep understanding of Catholic gnosticism, absolutism, and dualism. But it also weaves in pagan mysticism, transhuman transcendence, richly realized characters, and epic fights using third edition rules.
Quote from: Pat on October 05, 2021, 08:41:38 PM
There should be a word for when someone tries to be edgy and contrarian, in the exact same way as everyone else. It would have nearly infinite uses in fiction and politics.
Middle-school syndrome
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
Here are some 5.5e changes:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/creature-evolutions
Puke, bilge, bile, garbage, refuse, matter even the lowest decomposers will not touch much like a hyper processed hamburger that could sit on the shelf for a year without decaying
Quote from: Pat on October 06, 2021, 11:59:17 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 06, 2021, 11:04:53 AM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on October 06, 2021, 10:42:10 AM
I don't know if you'll remember, back in the day on ENWorld there was/is a poster named Sepulcrave, or something like that, that had a killer story hour. The premise was there was a succubus that wanted to be redeemed. Seps world (Tales of Wyre) is heavily influenced by religion (but I think Sep studied religions). I think his thread is still there, some poster even made a combined pdf. I highly recommend.
So I don't have a problem with fallen angels/redeemable fiends... .... .... if the game master says so. But in my world, all devils/demons are pure "Evil" and the celestials are "Good"... .. ... unless I say so as the game master.
Thing is, if you can have Good Demons (not redeemed ones that would stop being Demons) and Evil Angels (not Demons that is what Evil Angels are but Angels that manage to be Evil and Angelic) then redemption looses it's meaning.
In order for redemption to work you need the two extremes fixed and never thw two shall meet. This is the road you must travel to earn redemption.
You might want to read Sepulchrave's Tales of Wyre story hour. It's not just the best gaming fiction I've ever read, but one of the best fantasy stories of any kind. The path of Nahael's redemption is not between two poles, though the story is heavily influenced by a deep understanding of Catholic gnosticism, absolutism, and dualism. But it also weaves in pagan mysticism, transhuman transcendence, richly realized characters, and epic fights using third edition rules.
Okay, you sold me, where can I find this?
Beyond the OP trying to come off as the internet equivalent schlock news reporter for shits and giggles
Nothing in the preview is something I would probably use yet nothing warranting some of the pearl clutching I'm seeing in this thread. Wotc is forcing no one to make Demons good or 6 ft talk Dwarves at ones table. It's like some of you act like you have a gun pointed at your head with the trigger half cocked ready to fire.
I'm no Wotc apologist and will probably pass on this due to edition fatigue and Woke politics, yet let's also not act like Wotc has done Gestspo ready to knock out doors down if we don't comply.
Quote from: sureshot on October 06, 2021, 12:25:23 PM
Beyond the OP trying to come off as the internet equivalent schlock news reporter for shits and giggles
Nothing in the preview is something I would probably use yet nothing warranting some of the pearl clutching I'm seeing in this thread. Wotc is forcing no one to make Demons good or 6 ft talk Dwarves at ones table. It's like some of you act like you have a gun pointed at your head with the trigger half cocked ready to fire.
I'm no Wotc apologist and will probably pass on this due to edition fatigue and Woke politics, yet let's also not act like Wotc has done Gestspo ready to knock out doors down if we don't comply.
Can you point to the pearl clutching and where anyone has said anything about WotC kicking down our doors to make us play as they want?
Me thinks you conflate mockery, criticism and opinions as to why it doesn't work and how it could work with some strawman in your head.
Having sent the link to my gaming group even the hardcore liberal of the group sees it for what the new edition will be.
The Woke preferred pronoun flying wheelchair, morally grey alignment, wish fulfillment edition. Unless the next previews wow myself and my gaming group it will be a very hard pass on purchasing it.
Sad though about Wotc the Woke usually do not buy the product. Could be the edition that might hurt Has bro financially imo.
Quote from: sureshot on October 06, 2021, 12:54:30 PM
Having sent the link to my gaming group even the hardcore liberal of the group sees it for what the new edition will be.
The Woke preferred pronoun flying wheelchair, morally grey alignment, wish fulfillment edition. Unless the next previews wow myself and my gaming group it will be a very hard pass on purchasing it.
Sad though about Wotc the Woke usually do not buy the product. Could be the edition that might hurt Has bro financially imo.
Chances are it will sell well enough, but it could be (if they go full on woke) their "Star Wars: The Force Awakens", signaling the begining of their decline as number one in the TTRPG hobby.
As for that REALLY hurting Hasbro... Don't think they depend that much on WotC sales, and I think MtG is still the main seller of WotC.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 06, 2021, 11:04:53 AM
Thing is, if you can have Good Demons (not redeemed ones that would stop being Demons) and Evil Angels (not Demons that is what Evil Angels are but Angels that manage to be Evil and Angelic) then redemption looses it's meaning.
In order for redemption to work you need the two extremes fixed and never thw two shall meet. This is the road you must travel to earn redemption.
I think there are a lot of possibilities. As I see it, angels and demons in fantasy are metaphors for the divine, and different metaphors can be used and also be true. For example, by some interpretations of Meister Eckhart, angels and demons are the same beings. This was portrayed in the film Jacob's Ladder, which I thought was very powerful. At another extreme was the TV series The Good Place, which was humorous and parody - but also portrayed a lot of interesting concepts well, I thought.
I can't think offhand of a story where a demon found redemption and immediately transformed into an angel. I'm not opposed to it, but I don't think it's the only metaphor to work. In a number of fantasy cosmologies, there is a difference between a fallen angel like Lucifer and the rank-and-file demons of Hell. Lucifer is still portrayed as being feather-winged and beautiful, for example, as contrasted with most demons that are bat-winged and/or disgusting. I don't have a problem with that.
Inherently, stories portraying Lucifer, angels, and demons as relatable characters are making them into something more like human beings who have free will. That's suspect as literal theology, but as a story metaphor, it can work to convey real points.
On the other hand, there are a lot of ostensibly Christian stories that I find very un-Christian. I mentioned The Omen previously, which tried to make a father killing his adopted toddler as the morally good action. A common story I have a big problem with is a character who sells their soul to the devil to do something that they thinks is good - and then there needs to be some sort of action to fight or break the contract -- or even possibly the person gets sent to Hell. To me, that fundamentally opposes the power of God and the forgiveness of Jesus.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 06, 2021, 12:24:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on October 06, 2021, 11:59:17 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 06, 2021, 11:04:53 AM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on October 06, 2021, 10:42:10 AM
I don't know if you'll remember, back in the day on ENWorld there was/is a poster named Sepulcrave, or something like that, that had a killer story hour. The premise was there was a succubus that wanted to be redeemed. Seps world (Tales of Wyre) is heavily influenced by religion (but I think Sep studied religions). I think his thread is still there, some poster even made a combined pdf. I highly recommend.
So I don't have a problem with fallen angels/redeemable fiends... .... .... if the game master says so. But in my world, all devils/demons are pure "Evil" and the celestials are "Good"... .. ... unless I say so as the game master.
Thing is, if you can have Good Demons (not redeemed ones that would stop being Demons) and Evil Angels (not Demons that is what Evil Angels are but Angels that manage to be Evil and Angelic) then redemption looses it's meaning.
In order for redemption to work you need the two extremes fixed and never thw two shall meet. This is the road you must travel to earn redemption.
You might want to read Sepulchrave's Tales of Wyre story hour. It's not just the best gaming fiction I've ever read, but one of the best fantasy stories of any kind. The path of Nahael's redemption is not between two poles, though the story is heavily influenced by a deep understanding of Catholic gnosticism, absolutism, and dualism. But it also weaves in pagan mysticism, transhuman transcendence, richly realized characters, and epic fights using third edition rules.
Okay, you sold me, where can I find this?
https://www.enworld.org/threads/tales-of-wyre.58227/
It starts off slow, a DM asking the board some questions. But it quickly develops into a true story hour. It gets better and better as it goes along. Flip to page 11 if you prefer PDFs. There are also a number of secondary threads where Sepulchave posts stat blocks, expansions and fixes for the epic spellcasting system, and so on; but they're not necessary.
Some high points (and I mean high, as in 'what the hell were they smoking?') from the preview:
QuoteWe've also gotten strict about which monsters get the Humanoid creature type. This type is now reserved for creatures who are humanlike in their moral and cultural range. As we update older books, we'll reassign some Humanoids to other creature types. When Monsters of the Multiverse is released, you'll see that some former Humanoids are now Monstrosities, Fey, and other types.
This is odd, as prior to this the Humanoid type/subtype applied to creatures that were bipeds in the usual human-size range or smaller to an extent. Making it an aspect of morals and culture is a bit bizarre. Does this mean a human raised by nonhumanoids isn't technically a humanoid?
QuoteAlignment had a time out in the stat blocks of Candlekeep Mysteries and Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft. We omitted alignment in those books as a temporary measure, giving us time to determine how to handle alignment going forward. Now that we've done that work, alignment returns in The Wild Beyond the Witchlight and appears in all our other upcoming books as well.
So why did alignment get a time out? For a while, there'd been some confusion in the community about alignment's role in D&D. In the rules of the Player's Handbook, you choose your character's alignment, and in the rules of the Monster Manual, the DM determines a monster's alignment. No matter what alignment is chosen, a creature's alignment describes that creature's moral outlook; alignment doesn't determine the creature's behavior. Alignment is essentially a roleplaying aid.
Both books are clear about the player and the DM having the final say on alignment, but both books also plant a seed of doubt. The Player's Handbook suggests alignments for various folk in the D&D multiverse, and the stat blocks in the Monster Manual include alignments without reminding the DM that those alignments are merely suggestions.
To eliminate that seed of doubt while preserving alignment's function as a roleplaying tool, we've made the following changes:
Only named individuals, such as Mister Witch and Mister Light, have a definite alignment.
Generic Humanoids bear the words "Any Alignment," reminding the DM that such people have vast moral range.
Magical creatures that have a strong moral inclination (angels, demons, devils, undead, and the like) have an alignment preceded by the word "Typically." For example, a demon's stat block says "Typically Chaotic Evil," since it is typical for a D&D demon to be chaotic evil. That one word—"typically"—reminds the DM that the alignment is a narrative suggestion; it isn't an existential absolute. The holy can fall, and the fiendish can rise. Members of certain organizations—charitable knighthoods or diabolical cults, for example—also sometimes get the "Typically" treatment.
Creatures, such as most Beasts and Oozes, that are incapable of moral discernment continue to lack an alignment and therefore bear the term "Unaligned."
This is stupid, and WotC should feel bad for putting this on a paper or webpage.
They invoke the players and DMs having final say over alignments of PCs and monsters respectively, then turn around and insist 'well, these creatures are only typically good/evil', or 'these creatures can have ANY alignment'.
Aside from being a pain in the ass ('oh no, we shouldn't fight the goblins, they could be good!' 'THEY ATE THE MILLER!' 'It was an accident!') what on earth is the point, except to add more moral ambiguity?
I've have written it like this:
- Specific individuals have specific, fixed alignments.
- Most humanoid races have 'typically' in their alignment, to allow for outliers, outcasts, and ne'er-do-wells as well as cultural mutations.
- Magical creatures are almost always of their alignment listed, except in very rare circumstances.
- Outsiders hailing from the Outer Planes are always of their alignment. Because their essence and identity is bound up in the plane they hail from as well as that alignment, to change such would be to change their very nature. It can happen, but it always results in the outsider changing to become something else.
- Beasts, oozes, and other animal/non-intelligent creatures are always unaligned.
QuoteOccasionally a creature has a tag—Elf, Goblinoid, Titan, or the like—that identifies an important detail that doesn't appear elsewhere in the stat block. We've begun introducing new tags, which some rules now reference, allowing us to create fresh ways for creatures to interact with the game's system. For example, some creatures now include a tag that is the name of a spellcasting class, such as Cleric, Druid, or Wizard, and Monsters of the Multiverse includes a rule that says such a tag means the creature counts as a member of the named class for the purpose of magic item attunement.
Many of the numbers in a stat block include the creature's proficiency bonus. Because of that fact, a creature's proficiency bonus now appears in the stat block. The number sits to the right of the creature's challenge rating.
These are actually intelligent changes, which makes me wonder how they got in here.
They're also simplifying Spellcasting and highlighting Bonus Actions, which again is not a bad idea.
QuoteNew character races don't have the Ability Score Increase trait that Player's Handbook races have. The new races instead rely on a special character-creation rule that allows a character to increase one ability score by 2 and another score by 1 or to increase three different ability scores by 1. The lack of the Ability Score Increase trait helps make your choice of race and your choice of class independent from each other, broadening the types of characters we're likely to see at the game table.
But why? Why don't these races use the same ASI system everyone else does? This is retarded beyond belief. It's not like everyone is going to pick the same ASI options; they're going to pick what strengthens their character. I need a drink.
Quote from: Pat on October 06, 2021, 01:20:14 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 06, 2021, 12:24:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on October 06, 2021, 11:59:17 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 06, 2021, 11:04:53 AM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on October 06, 2021, 10:42:10 AM
I don't know if you'll remember, back in the day on ENWorld there was/is a poster named Sepulcrave, or something like that, that had a killer story hour. The premise was there was a succubus that wanted to be redeemed. Seps world (Tales of Wyre) is heavily influenced by religion (but I think Sep studied religions). I think his thread is still there, some poster even made a combined pdf. I highly recommend.
So I don't have a problem with fallen angels/redeemable fiends... .... .... if the game master says so. But in my world, all devils/demons are pure "Evil" and the celestials are "Good"... .. ... unless I say so as the game master.
Thing is, if you can have Good Demons (not redeemed ones that would stop being Demons) and Evil Angels (not Demons that is what Evil Angels are but Angels that manage to be Evil and Angelic) then redemption looses it's meaning.
In order for redemption to work you need the two extremes fixed and never thw two shall meet. This is the road you must travel to earn redemption.
You might want to read Sepulchrave's Tales of Wyre story hour. It's not just the best gaming fiction I've ever read, but one of the best fantasy stories of any kind. The path of Nahael's redemption is not between two poles, though the story is heavily influenced by a deep understanding of Catholic gnosticism, absolutism, and dualism. But it also weaves in pagan mysticism, transhuman transcendence, richly realized characters, and epic fights using third edition rules.
Okay, you sold me, where can I find this?
https://www.enworld.org/threads/tales-of-wyre.58227/
It starts off slow, a DM asking the board some questions. But it quickly develops into a true story hour. It gets better and better as it goes along. Flip to page 11 if you prefer PDFs. There are also a number of secondary threads where Sepulchave posts stat blocks, expansions and fixes for the epic spellcasting system, and so on; but they're not necessary.
Thank you so much!
@Ghostmaker They are trying to fit the square peg of Orks are black people yo! into the round hole of Orcs are evil. Which is why Elfs, often if not always described and imagines as fair skinned creatures, don't get the same treatment and become monstrosities.
The new character races vs the old character races ASI is the stupidest idea I've ever seen.
Until they come up with something else to top that, there's no limit to human stupidity.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 06, 2021, 01:21:29 PM
Some high points (and I mean high, as in 'what the hell were they smoking?') from the preview:
QuoteNo matter what alignment is chosen, a creature's alignment describes that creature's moral outlook; alignment doesn't determine the creature's behavior.
What? Since when does your moral outlook not determine your behavior? "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on October 06, 2021, 01:53:06 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 06, 2021, 01:21:29 PM
Some high points (and I mean high, as in 'what the hell were they smoking?') from the preview:
QuoteNo matter what alignment is chosen, a creature's alignment describes that creature's moral outlook; alignment doesn't determine the creature's behavior.
What? Since when does your moral outlook not determine your behavior? "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"
When you're an SJW and therefore the ends justify the means. Which is why they can harass women IRL and not be called mysoginists because they are doing it to the right kind of women for the right kind of reasons.
Not my rules, I just understand their twisted logic.
It feels like they're trying to set up something similar to WoD's Nature/Demeanor, but I could be mistaken on that.
It's one thing to say 'alignment should not be a straitjacket for actions taken by a player or NPC'. That I can understand. But to say 'moral outlook and alignment don't determine behavior' strikes me as going full retard in the opposite direction.
Quote from: Pat on October 06, 2021, 01:20:14 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 06, 2021, 12:24:37 PM
Okay, you sold me, where can I find this?
https://www.enworld.org/threads/tales-of-wyre.58227/
It starts off slow, a DM asking the board some questions. But it quickly develops into a true story hour. It gets better and better as it goes along. Flip to page 11 if you prefer PDFs. There are also a number of secondary threads where Sepulchave posts stat blocks, expansions and fixes for the epic spellcasting system, and so on; but they're not necessary.
Thanks Pat for the link. It's about time I reread. If you're like me be prepared to sink a lot of time in to reading Seps stuff. Seps story hour for me was like Critical Role is for a lot of 5e players.... .... ... except Seps is good LOL. Folks did fanart even.
Also, If you like good 1e/2e stuff read this: http://www.peldor.com/
I've spent loads of hours reading this too. This guy places his game in Greyhawk (the best of all) and goes through a lot of the classic adventures. Actually starts here
http://www.peldor.com/epic_1_index.html
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
Having 6 foot tall dwarves that do not speak dwarvish and have Constitution 8 is also fine by me... probably not something I'd allow at my table without very convincing justification, but "choose your language, ability scores and height according to your race and background" should be okay IMO. It DOES sound a bit ludicrous, I'll admit.
EDIT: in other words, it is mostly cosplay at this point:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/06/fantasy-races-stereotypes-vs-cosplay.html
Planescape beat 5.5e to it decades ago with evil angels and good demons. Spelljammer had some role reversals as well.
But TSR played around with this idea well before that and as mentioned in an older thread. BECMI had a series of expansions for playing typically monster races. 2e had one as well. Theres been modules and adventures exploring this too.
Nothing new.
But WOTC's spin on it is hellbound to be stupid somehow. From what I've been seeing so far they are trying for a "personalize it" sort of open ended system, or lack of. But the way they are going at it feels so off kilter.
Quote from: jhkim on October 06, 2021, 01:17:35 PM
On the other hand, there are a lot of ostensibly Christian stories that I find very un-Christian. I mentioned The Omen previously, which tried to make a father killing his adopted toddler as the morally good action. A common story I have a big problem with is a character who sells their soul to the devil to do something that they thinks is good - and then there needs to be some sort of action to fight or break the contract -- or even possibly the person gets sent to Hell. To me, that fundamentally opposes the power of God and the forgiveness of Jesus.
God has never asked a Father to kill his Son in the whole of the Bible?
You need to study up a bit more on your theology.
Quote from: Shasarak on October 06, 2021, 04:33:05 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 06, 2021, 01:17:35 PM
On the other hand, there are a lot of ostensibly Christian stories that I find very un-Christian. I mentioned The Omen previously, which tried to make a father killing his adopted toddler as the morally good action. A common story I have a big problem with is a character who sells their soul to the devil to do something that they thinks is good - and then there needs to be some sort of action to fight or break the contract -- or even possibly the person gets sent to Hell. To me, that fundamentally opposes the power of God and the forgiveness of Jesus.
God has never asked a Father to kill his Son in the whole of the Bible?
You need to study up a bit more on your theology.
But the point of the Abraham-Isaac story is that God didn't allow it to actually happen. It would be a very different story and theology if Isaac was actually sacrificed and that was held up as a good act.
Quote from: jhkim on October 06, 2021, 04:56:25 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on October 06, 2021, 04:33:05 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 06, 2021, 01:17:35 PM
On the other hand, there are a lot of ostensibly Christian stories that I find very un-Christian. I mentioned The Omen previously, which tried to make a father killing his adopted toddler as the morally good action. A common story I have a big problem with is a character who sells their soul to the devil to do something that they thinks is good - and then there needs to be some sort of action to fight or break the contract -- or even possibly the person gets sent to Hell. To me, that fundamentally opposes the power of God and the forgiveness of Jesus.
God has never asked a Father to kill his Son in the whole of the Bible?
You need to study up a bit more on your theology.
But the point of the Abraham-Isaac story is that God didn't allow it to actually happen. It would be a very different story and theology if Isaac was actually sacrificed and that was held up as a good act.
You are correct on the story of Abraham-Isaac.
You are also correct in the previous examples you give as being fundamentally un-Christian.
They are examples of subversive / deconstructionist takes on Christian themes and theology.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
Here are some 5.5e changes:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/creature-evolutions
So... what are they doing to actually make the game better? Because everything they talk about here is meaningless piffle, such as minor formatting changes to stat blocks. That's not exactly my idea of an awe-inspiring "evolution" in game design.
Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 07:09:49 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 05, 2021, 03:55:10 PM
Here are some 5.5e changes:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/creature-evolutions
So... what are they doing to actually make the game better? Because everything they talk about here is meaningless piffle, such as minor formatting changes to stat blocks. That's not exactly my idea of an awe-inspiring "evolution" in game design.
"Backwards-Compatible " = Pretty much the same game, probably rules clarifications and rewordings.
Slapping a "50th Anniversary" sticker and some shiny on the cover is gonna sell books, and they know it. See.....pretty much anything with an Anniversary Edition.
Meh.
Quote from: jhkim on October 06, 2021, 04:56:25 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on October 06, 2021, 04:33:05 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 06, 2021, 01:17:35 PM
On the other hand, there are a lot of ostensibly Christian stories that I find very un-Christian. I mentioned The Omen previously, which tried to make a father killing his adopted toddler as the morally good action. A common story I have a big problem with is a character who sells their soul to the devil to do something that they thinks is good - and then there needs to be some sort of action to fight or break the contract -- or even possibly the person gets sent to Hell. To me, that fundamentally opposes the power of God and the forgiveness of Jesus.
God has never asked a Father to kill his Son in the whole of the Bible?
You need to study up a bit more on your theology.
But the point of the Abraham-Isaac story is that God didn't allow it to actually happen. It would be a very different story and theology if Isaac was actually sacrificed and that was held up as a good act.
And in The Omen God also did not allow it to happen.
So which bit was not Christian again?
There are no good demons. That's why they're called demons. They are the embodiment or chaotic evil.
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:
"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."
Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.
My take is this: Motivational ambiguity is a really crap concept in a Bad Guy. I appreciate absolutes, certainties. I appreciate, for example, the certainty that a chaotic evil demon is really only here to cause as much bedlam as possible, and the certainty that a lawful evil devil has some sort of evil machinations that cannot be trusted to be anything other than evil.
I'm really getting fed up with this moral relativism bullshit.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 06, 2021, 01:21:29 PM
QuoteNew character races don't have the Ability Score Increase trait that Player's Handbook races have. The new races instead rely on a special character-creation rule that allows a character to increase one ability score by 2 and another score by 1 or to increase three different ability scores by 1. The lack of the Ability Score Increase trait helps make your choice of race and your choice of class independent from each other, broadening the types of characters we're likely to see at the game table.
But why? Why don't these races use the same ASI system everyone else does? This is retarded beyond belief. It's not like everyone is going to pick the same ASI options; they're going to pick what strengthens their character. I need a drink.
As of Tasha's, optionally every character can customise their ability score increases; this announcement is making that option the default for new races. I'd expect it to become canon for all races in a 5.5:
Quote... This increase doesn't apply to every dwarf, just to dwarf adventurers, and it exists to reinforce an archetype. That reinforcement is appropriate if you want to lean into the archetype, but it's unhelpful if your character doesn't conform to the archetype.
If you'd like your character to follow their own path, you may ignore your Ability Score Increase trait and assign ability score increases tailored to your character. Here's how to do it: ...
This, to me, is backwards - in my campaigns the increase does apply to every dwarf, and part of the point of playing against archetype ought to be having to overcome difficulty. This common idea that race absolutely dictates class feels to me like another bit of white room theorising and over-optimisation[1], but in practice, many players felt compelled to pick the race that matched their class, or the classes to match their race. The PHB even encouraged this, if not as explicitly as some earlier versions: every class' description lists three example characters, and all of them are playing to their strengths.
Then again, I strongly prefer a humanocentric world, which isn't what we see in the popular conception of D&D these days, and the most RPG-active of my kids mocks me for it.
[1] Unless, of course, you're playing B/X-type race-as-class, in which case I prefer ACKS or similar games that allow races to have more than one class.
Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:
"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."
Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.
That is EXACTLY the point I was making regarding outsiders, especially outer planes natives like devils, angels, etc.
D&D's cosmology involves the outer planes, which are strongly aligned. There are two ways to justify them. One, is that they're the primal source from whence mortals acquire their alignments. The outer planes predate the Prime, and the Prime is just a mix of the various traits the upper and lower realms embody. That's the more traditional perspective, and at least somewhat aligns with various religious beliefs. The more modern perspective inverts that, and says that the outer planes are a reflection of the Prime. They mirror human (and other being's) beliefs, and postdate the emergence of religious thought.
What are angels and devils? They're strongly aligned beings from the outer planes. The most logical supposition is they're created in the same way as the planes in which they live. They may have a motive spark or other quality the more passive firmament that surrounds them lacks, but aside from that they're essentially made of the same stuff. So in the two interpretations, they're either eternal and predate the Prime races, or they're manifestations of mortal ideals and myths.
Let's run with the latter interpretation: That gods, little gods, and the planes they live on are created by the belief of mortals. That they rise and wane in proportion to the scope and ferocity of their support on the Prime.
What does that imply about the nature of devils and angels? It means a devil is the embodiment of a set of mortal beliefs about order and evil. A devil may lack the capacity to go against their immanent nature, and be unable to be anything other than a devil. But if the motive spark is sufficiently malleable, a devil may have some degree of moral independence, and be able to question their very nature. But what happens if that leads them to abrogate their own essence, rejecting their core principles, and embracing the light?
Well, I see two options. One, it's an inherent contradiction, and not allowed by their devilish nature. They revert back to the morphic stuff they're composed of, and simply cease to exist. Alternatively, their inner change causes an outer change that reflects the new belief system they have started to embody. In this case, a devil who turns good become an angel, or some analogous entity from the cultural matrix that created them. This doesn't have to be an instant process. It may be long and gradual, involve slippage and backsliding, and could include physical as well as existential agony. But as their inner nature changes, so does their outer nature, and they eventually become a new type of akashic being.
Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:
"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."
Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.
EXACTLY. Devils & Demons are evil, Angels are good. If they stop being their alignment, they become something else completely.
Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 07, 2021, 09:02:39 AM
Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:
"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."
Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.
EXACTLY. Devils & Demons are evil, Angels are good. If they stop being their alignment, they become something else completely.
Which is not to say a demon or devil could not be redeemed, or an angel or archon could not fall. But such an event should be momentous. There should be signs and portents (depending on your fantasy setting, obviously). Even good-aligned powers should be jockeying and shifting to take advantage or try to stop it, as well as evil-aligned ones.
Quote from: FF_Ninja on October 07, 2021, 04:22:16 AM
My take is this: Motivational ambiguity is a really crap concept in a Bad Guy. I appreciate absolutes, certainties. I appreciate, for example, the certainty that a chaotic evil demon is really only here to cause as much bedlam as possible, and the certainty that a lawful evil devil has some sort of evil machinations that cannot be trusted to be anything other than evil.
I'm really getting fed up with this moral relativism bullshit.
Agree 100%.
Demon does demon things because that's how he was raised. Deep down, he really just wants to be liked. People think that's clever, but it's been done to death. Complexity can be interesting, but characters like this end up being grey and mushy.
It's more fun to subvert that cliche by having the villain display some moral complexity...but it's a trap and he really is just pure evil.
Quote from: rytrasmi on October 07, 2021, 10:12:51 AM
Quote from: FF_Ninja on October 07, 2021, 04:22:16 AM
My take is this: Motivational ambiguity is a really crap concept in a Bad Guy. I appreciate absolutes, certainties. I appreciate, for example, the certainty that a chaotic evil demon is really only here to cause as much bedlam as possible, and the certainty that a lawful evil devil has some sort of evil machinations that cannot be trusted to be anything other than evil.
I'm really getting fed up with this moral relativism bullshit.
Agree 100%.
Demon does demon things because that's how he was raised. Deep down, he really just wants to be liked. People think that's clever, but it's been done to death. Complexity can be interesting, but characters like this end up being grey and mushy.
It's more fun to subvert that cliche by having the villain display some moral complexity...but it's a trap and he really is just pure evil.
Or, he really does have some "good" points. It's merely that they aren't dominant, and they make him that much more effective in his overall evil goal. Kind of like a more conventional bad guy human who has a plot to wreck the world's economy but is nice to children, polite to ladies, and would never even think of kicking a dog. Says "sir" and "yes maam" but still needs killing.
This is where I think the whole "everything is grey" thing is adolescent thinking taking to an absurd degree. Even the analogy is whacked the way they use it. Usually, "Grey" is some mix of white and black, not the absence of either. And that mirrors what you said, where "shades of grey" is most interesting when you can still see some of the primary colors. Once you can't at least tease out something primary, the whole thing is mush.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 07, 2021, 10:57:56 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on October 07, 2021, 10:12:51 AM
Quote from: FF_Ninja on October 07, 2021, 04:22:16 AM
My take is this: Motivational ambiguity is a really crap concept in a Bad Guy. I appreciate absolutes, certainties. I appreciate, for example, the certainty that a chaotic evil demon is really only here to cause as much bedlam as possible, and the certainty that a lawful evil devil has some sort of evil machinations that cannot be trusted to be anything other than evil.
I'm really getting fed up with this moral relativism bullshit.
Agree 100%.
Demon does demon things because that's how he was raised. Deep down, he really just wants to be liked. People think that's clever, but it's been done to death. Complexity can be interesting, but characters like this end up being grey and mushy.
It's more fun to subvert that cliche by having the villain display some moral complexity...but it's a trap and he really is just pure evil.
Or, he really does have some "good" points. It's merely that they aren't dominant, and they make him that much more effective in his overall evil goal. Kind of like a more conventional bad guy human who has a plot to wreck the world's economy but is nice to children, polite to ladies, and would never even think of kicking a dog. Says "sir" and "yes maam" but still needs killing.
This is where I think the whole "everything is grey" thing is adolescent thinking taking to an absurd degree. Even the analogy is whacked the way they use it. Usually, "Grey" is some mix of white and black, not the absence of either. And that mirrors what you said, where "shades of grey" is most interesting when you can still see some of the primary colors. Once you can't at least tease out something primary, the whole thing is mush.
Yeah, like Hans Gruber in Die Hard. Polite, intelligent, efficient, and likeable, but still a homicidal nutjob. Just when you think he's getting too grey, he shows his true colors by murdering someone.
And you're right about it being an age related. Kids enjoy stories with obvious morals, teenagers rebel, root for the bad guy, and see everything as relative, and then it dawns on us as we mature that the fables held wisdom all along. At least that was my path.
Quote from: rytrasmi on October 07, 2021, 11:35:17 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 07, 2021, 10:57:56 AM
This is where I think the whole "everything is grey" thing is adolescent thinking taking to an absurd degree. Even the analogy is whacked the way they use it. Usually, "Grey" is some mix of white and black, not the absence of either. And that mirrors what you said, where "shades of grey" is most interesting when you can still see some of the primary colors. Once you can't at least tease out something primary, the whole thing is mush.
And you're right about it being an age related. Kids enjoy stories with obvious morals, teenagers rebel, root for the bad guy, and see everything as relative, and then it dawns on us as we mature that the fables held wisdom all along. At least that was my path.
There's a difference between rebellion and moral relativism, though. Some rebels may go in for moral relativism, but not all. I was certainly rebellious in my teenage years, and what I rebelled against was the book-banning "moral majority" of the 1980s that stood for things like banning D&D for its satanism and blocking any mention of homosexuality. But I never adopted moral relativism, and I still am opposed to the 1980s "moral majority" - they're just not the majority any more.
I cited Good Omens before - and similar is true for other works of Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. I don't think that their stories show moral relativism. There is clear goodness in their stories. It's just not as simple as fighting for the white hats against the black hats. I think they both have many great stories which aren't moral mush.
I'm more than fine with redemption stories, and *typically* makes those better imo. If 99.999% of demons want to bathe in pools of baby blood and 99.999% of devils want to condemn all mortals to an eternity of torment, then a demon or devil trying for redemption will have their path made that much harder by the fact that most mortals have a very sensible fear and hatred of them.
The take on celestial/angelic alignment that bothers me, and I'm honestly shocked to have not seen it show up in modern D&D yet, is the notion that angels and celestials are just as bad as or worse than infernal forces. Honestly, I can't think of a single supernatural tv series in the last 20 years with angelic characters has *not* gone this route.
Quote from: therealjcm on October 07, 2021, 12:32:27 PM
I'm more than fine with redemption stories, and *typically* makes those better imo. If 99.999% of demons want to bathe in pools of baby blood and 99.999% of devils want to condemn all mortals to an eternity of torment, then a demon or devil trying for redemption will have their path made that much harder by the fact that most mortals have a very sensible fear and hatred of them.
The take on celestial/angelic alignment that bothers me, and I'm honestly shocked to have not seen it show up in modern D&D yet, is the notion that angels and celestials are just as bad as or worse than infernal forces. Honestly, I can't think of a single supernatural tv series in the last 20 years with angelic characters has *not* gone this route.
Angels are vanishingly rare in D&D, in my experience. Plus because D&D is polytheistic, they're different than the explicitly Christian angels of most fantasy portrayals. Even in broader popular fantasy, angels are much less common than demons.
Plus, the possibility of a fallen angel is very different than the trope of saying that all angels are assholes.
Quote from: jhkim on October 07, 2021, 12:27:39 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on October 07, 2021, 11:35:17 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 07, 2021, 10:57:56 AM
This is where I think the whole "everything is grey" thing is adolescent thinking taking to an absurd degree. Even the analogy is whacked the way they use it. Usually, "Grey" is some mix of white and black, not the absence of either. And that mirrors what you said, where "shades of grey" is most interesting when you can still see some of the primary colors. Once you can't at least tease out something primary, the whole thing is mush.
And you're right about it being an age related. Kids enjoy stories with obvious morals, teenagers rebel, root for the bad guy, and see everything as relative, and then it dawns on us as we mature that the fables held wisdom all along. At least that was my path.
There's a difference between rebellion and moral relativism, though. Some rebels may go in for moral relativism, but not all. I was certainly rebellious in my teenage years, and what I rebelled against was the book-banning "moral majority" of the 1980s that stood for things like banning D&D for its satanism and blocking any mention of homosexuality. But I never adopted moral relativism, and I still am opposed to the 1980s "moral majority" - they're just not the majority any more.
I cited Good Omens before - and similar is true for other works of Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. I don't think that their stories show moral relativism. There is clear goodness in their stories. It's just not as simple as fighting for the white hats against the black hats. I think they both have many great stories which aren't moral mush.
Let me put it this way, a Demon can't be Good, it might do a good deed to further it's plans but it and it's plans are Evil.
The moment a Demon stops being Evil it also stops being a Demon.
The same is true in the reverse for Angels.
If you go against this then that's moral relativism and it's just a grey mush.
There's well written and even fun grey mush moral relativism out there. Doesn't stop being grey mush moral relativism tho.
Just like there's badly written and boring stuff that's not grey mush moral relativism and it doesn't stop being badly written and boring.
Lets jump to a different example, take a supervillain, for whatever reason this character repents of his evil ways and stops doing evil stuff and starts doing heroic stuff. As long as it's not a plot to fool the Heroes then he's no longer a villain is he?
Reverse the roles and take a Superhero, for whatever reason he stops doing heroic stuff and starts doing evil stuff... Is he still a Hero?
Why then can a Demon be Good or an Angel Evil? Fallen Angles have a name = Demons, likewise redeemed/good Demons have a name = Angels.
Anything else
IS Moral Relativism.
Personally I like the 4e cosmology, where "Angel" just means a celestial servant of the astral gods; and "Demons" are corrupted Elementals, "Devils" are corrupted Angels - but I keep Hell as a prison plane, whatever the Devils say about having killed God and taken His stuff.
Quote from: jhkim on October 07, 2021, 12:27:39 PM
I cited Good Omens before - and similar is true for other works of Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. I don't think that their stories show moral relativism. There is clear goodness in their stories. It's just not as simple as fighting for the white hats against the black hats. I think they both have many great stories which aren't moral mush.
So, in the context of a game, where's the party of PCs situated? Would the demon and angel's cooperation matter much if a party of PCs was the protagonist? The party encouters the demon in Good Omens and immediately panics because holy shit a demon but then panic subsides because he's not a terribly evil demon and in fact is buddies with an angel. I'm not feeling the same punch when this is put into the context of a role playing game. It's more like, oh neat, a demon who is not pure evil and didn't immediately attack us, so anyway how to we find this antichrist child? Going from faint recollection, the antagonists in Good Omens are actually evil.
Quote from: rytrasmi on October 07, 2021, 02:02:17 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 07, 2021, 12:27:39 PM
I cited Good Omens before - and similar is true for other works of Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. I don't think that their stories show moral relativism. There is clear goodness in their stories. It's just not as simple as fighting for the white hats against the black hats. I think they both have many great stories which aren't moral mush.
So, in the context of a game, where's the party of PCs situated? Would the demon and angel's cooperation matter much if a party of PCs was the protagonist? The party encouters the demon in Good Omens and immediately panics because holy shit a demon but then panic subsides because he's not a terribly evil demon and in fact is buddies with an angel. I'm not feeling the same punch when this is put into the context of a role playing game. It's more like, oh neat, a demon who is not pure evil and didn't immediately attack us, so anyway how to we find this antichrist child? Going from faint recollection, the antagonists in Good Omens are actually evil.
The angels aren't the good guys in Good Omens. Or rather, the whole aspect of what it means to be a "fallen angel" is not confined to a one and one event shortly after the creation of the world, but is still happening as the story unfolds. Given the authors, this is one of the rare cases where such an idea is handled well.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 07, 2021, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on October 07, 2021, 02:02:17 PM
So, in the context of a game, where's the party of PCs situated? Would the demon and angel's cooperation matter much if a party of PCs was the protagonist? The party encouters the demon in Good Omens and immediately panics because holy shit a demon but then panic subsides because he's not a terribly evil demon and in fact is buddies with an angel. I'm not feeling the same punch when this is put into the context of a role playing game. It's more like, oh neat, a demon who is not pure evil and didn't immediately attack us, so anyway how to we find this antichrist child? Going from faint recollection, the antagonists in Good Omens are actually evil.
The angels aren't the good guys in Good Omens. Or rather, the whole aspect of what it means to be a "fallen angel" is not confined to a one and one event shortly after the creation of the world, but is still happening as the story unfolds. Given the authors, this is one of the rare cases where such an idea is handled well.
I agree. I thought the novel was handled well, especially because it was directly parodying The Omen, which was a very wrong-headed take on Christian theology IMO. There is still clear right and wrong in Good Omens - it's just that the angels aren't on the side of right. That makes it an explicitly humanist rejection of the theology of The Omen - but its humanism still has an absolute moral compass. In Good Omens, killing Damien as a toddler would be wrong, because he still has a chance at redemption.
Unfortunately, it had a lot of inferior imitators and trashy takes on angels-are-assholes, but inferior imitators are par for the course of good literature.
I hadn't been suggesting a direct adaptation of Good Omens into an RPG scenario. But I can see how similar themes might be adapted into a mystery scenario. I could easily see a D&D scenario revolving around a demon-spawned child, where there is a possibly-rogue deva that wants to kill the child, and a bunch of evil cultists that want to reclaim the child - but where the PCs end up saving the child and having him raised away from the control of the cultists. There are some parallels to Ravenloft II: The House on Gryphon Hill, which deals with a type of dualism -- where the mystery isn't solved just by killing the enemy, but by resolving it through other means. (A bit vague here to avoid spoilers.)
Quote from: jhkim on October 07, 2021, 12:27:39 PM
And you're right about it being an age related. Kids enjoy stories with obvious morals, teenagers rebel, root for the bad guy, and see everything as relative, and then it dawns on us as we mature that the fables held wisdom all along. At least that was my path.
There's a difference between rebellion and moral relativism, though.
Well, that's why I referred to adolescent thinking, which is more than just being a teen or being a rebel. People can rebel for all kinds of reasons, including against tyranny. There is a high correlation between teens and adolescent thinking. Or more precisely, "thinking," because it is primarily emotionally-driven rationalization for what they think they want. You can pretty much define a large chunk of "modernism" starting with Rousseau as "decided that 'teenager' was a thing, and then a bunch of people tried to stay one their entire lives".
Seeing shades of gray and noticing that the people have good and bad traits that blend in often surprising ways is part of growing up and gaining a little wisdom. Noticing that once and making the emotional leap into moral relativism results in mush. It isn't always immediately 100% mush, because even mental adolescents live off the capital of the society around them, but taken to its logical conclusion it results in a mush so pure that it doesn't occur naturally, only when manufactured.
Quote from: S'mon on October 07, 2021, 01:40:48 PM
Personally I like the 4e cosmology, where "Angel" just means a celestial servant of the astral gods; and "Demons" are corrupted Elementals, "Devils" are corrupted Angels - but I keep Hell as a prison plane, whatever the Devils say about having killed God and taken His stuff.
The 'nothing is evil in the beginning' was an element of the 4E cosmology I really liked, and I toyed with the idea that 'He Who Was' was
still alive in the depths of the Nine Hells and Asmodeus was pretending to godhood while leeching off his divine power.
Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 07, 2021, 09:02:39 AM
Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:
"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."
Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.
EXACTLY. Devils & Demons are evil, Angels are good. If they stop being their alignment, they become something else completely.
This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.
The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).
The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 01:49:29 PM
Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 07, 2021, 09:02:39 AM
Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:
"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."
Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.
EXACTLY. Devils & Demons are evil, Angels are good. If they stop being their alignment, they become something else completely.
This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.
The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).
The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.
So exactly like Christian Angels and Demons? Demons after all ARE fallen Angels.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 08, 2021, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 01:49:29 PM
Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 07, 2021, 09:02:39 AM
Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:
"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."
Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.
EXACTLY. Devils & Demons are evil, Angels are good. If they stop being their alignment, they become something else completely.
This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.
The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).
The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.
So exactly like Christian Angels and Demons? Demons after all ARE fallen Angels.
Yup, and I don't even particularly try to hide it.
The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.
The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 02:45:27 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 08, 2021, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 01:49:29 PM
Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 07, 2021, 09:02:39 AM
Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:
"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."
Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.
EXACTLY. Devils & Demons are evil, Angels are good. If they stop being their alignment, they become something else completely.
This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.
The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).
The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.
So exactly like Christian Angels and Demons? Demons after all ARE fallen Angels.
Yup, and I don't even particularly try to hide it.
The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.
The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.
Neat, where can we buy it?
I did a bit of a write up for a hell / heaven parallel for GURPS Banestorm. A high mana world where the winged humans lived on floating islands in the sky and the toxic, sulfurous surface is inhabited by the dispossessed, criminals, and the fallen. The advent of Christian ideas on that world was interesting as the "angels" eschewed it and the "demons" embraced it in secret covens and hidden temples.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 08, 2021, 02:47:59 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 02:45:27 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 08, 2021, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 01:49:29 PM
Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 07, 2021, 09:02:39 AM
Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:
"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."
Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.
EXACTLY. Devils & Demons are evil, Angels are good. If they stop being their alignment, they become something else completely.
This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.
The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).
The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.
So exactly like Christian Angels and Demons? Demons after all ARE fallen Angels.
Yup, and I don't even particularly try to hide it.
The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.
The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.
Neat, where can we buy it?
I'm literally replying to this while taking a break from writing the last two pages of the system.
My next step is doing open beta testing (I'll post something in the Design & Development subforum for that) and Kickstarter prep (I wanted a complete document available for backers before starting any crowdfunding to avoid vaporware concerns... I'm mainly looking to limit my exposure on art costs, the costs of a professional editing pass, various sundry legal/startup expenses and do an initial print run for backers).
So if you're interested; Design & Development subforum when I start open beta is where to look.
Quote from: Jam The MF on October 06, 2021, 09:00:47 PM
There are no good demons. That's why they're called demons. They are the embodiment or chaotic evil.
The irony is that the Satanic panic is now justified in the concern that D&D would be portraying evil as good.
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 03:41:52 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 08, 2021, 02:47:59 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 02:45:27 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 08, 2021, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 01:49:29 PM
Quote from: VhaidraSaga on October 07, 2021, 09:02:39 AM
Quote from: Horace on October 06, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
I guess this paragraph in the 5E Player's Handbook won't survive the revision:
"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil."
Too bad, because it's one of the most sensible things in the book.
EXACTLY. Devils & Demons are evil, Angels are good. If they stop being their alignment, they become something else completely.
This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.
The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).
The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.
So exactly like Christian Angels and Demons? Demons after all ARE fallen Angels.
Yup, and I don't even particularly try to hide it.
The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.
The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.
Neat, where can we buy it?
I'm literally replying to this while taking a break from writing the last two pages of the system.
My next step is doing open beta testing (I'll post something in the Design & Development subforum for that) and Kickstarter prep (I wanted a complete document available for backers before starting any crowdfunding to avoid vaporware concerns... I'm mainly looking to limit my exposure on art costs, the costs of a professional editing pass, various sundry legal/startup expenses and do an initial print run for backers).
So if you're interested; Design & Development subforum when I start open beta is where to look.
NEAT! ;D
Quote from: S'mon on October 07, 2021, 01:40:48 PM
Personally I like the 4e cosmology, where "Angel" just means a celestial servant of the astral gods; and "Demons" are corrupted Elementals, "Devils" are corrupted Angels - but I keep Hell as a prison plane, whatever the Devils say about having killed God and taken His stuff.
I found 4e had the worst take on (usually) everything.
Their cosmology was especially worst. Just disrespectful to real designers.
As usual, I was exactly RIGHT about the new woke D&D Evolution Edition that WoTC is planning. But in fact, I was off only in that in some ways it's even WORSE than what I'd predicted.
Demons and Devils in my game are Evil. Capital E. Full Stop, do not pass Go, Do Not collect $200.
Whether I am running 1e, 2e, 5e or Candyland.
I'm not a big fan of pushing social agendas in RPGs. I really don't think portraying Nazis as good guys would be in good taste in a game, and the same goes for demons. With both, there's no heart of gold below the surface that you can reveal, no wholesome element you can find by just looking at them from the right relative viewpoint. They're just evil, and trying to make them neutral or good only serves to warp a person's moral fabric. It doesn't matter if one is religious or not, there is some sort of fundamental morality that decent people share, and portraying demons as good in some show of "look at how socially enlightened I am, I can even be nonjudgmental about demons" violates that innate moral sense on a visceral level.
I really think this is nothing more than a virtue signal of intellectual elitism and a forwarding of left wing ideology. You would never see them show Nazis in a good light, because it's considered correct by the woke to hate Nazis. Demons, on the other hand, while objectively more evil than the worst Nazi ever even thought of being in his most twisted nightmares, come from religion and the woke consider themselves superior to superstitious religious troglodytes who go to church and work blue collar jobs so it becomes edgy and cool to present demons as misunderstood or even good.
I believe eventually they will succeed in turning D&D into an unsatisfying game to play. I think much of the appeal of D&D comes from the appeal of the mythic past and the more WOTC tries to impose their 21st century values on it, the more disconnected the game gets from precisely the thing that lies at the foundation of its appeal.
This applies purely to D&D. I realize there are some RPGs out there that are specifically about portraying demons and exploring evil, and also some that use "daemons" rather than "demons", beings which come from different traditions and aren't inherently evil. I'm talking about a standard fantasy game that takes biblical-type demons but makes them non-evil for no particular mechanical or narrative reason, just to flout convention.
Quote from: DocJones on October 08, 2021, 03:46:13 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on October 06, 2021, 09:00:47 PM
There are no good demons. That's why they're called demons. They are the embodiment or chaotic evil.
The irony is that the Satanic panic is now justified in the concern that D&D would be portraying evil as good.
Quote from: kidkaos2 on October 08, 2021, 07:12:50 PM
I really don't think portraying Nazis as good guys would be in good taste in a game, and the same goes for demons. With both, there's no heart of gold below the surface that you can reveal, no wholesome element you can find by just looking at them from the right relative viewpoint. They're just evil, and trying to make them neutral or good only serves to warp a person's moral fabric. It doesn't matter if one is religious or not, there is some sort of fundamental morality that decent people share, and portraying demons as good in some show of "look at how socially enlightened I am, I can even be nonjudgmental about demons" violates that innate moral sense on a visceral level.
First of all, I disagree with kidkaos2's point here. Good Omens doesn't violate any inner moral sense for most decent people. It's non-Christian, but even as a Christian, I could appreciate its message . The same goes for Life of Brian and The Last Temptation of Christ. As a teenager, I went with a group from my church to watch The Last Temptation of Christ, and we discussed it afterwards.
To DocJones' point, the problem with the Satanic panic wasn't that they were aimed at the wrong games - and they should have been burning Fantasy Wargaming instead of D&D.
The problem with the Satanic panic was that all of these are still just paper-and-pencil games. Adults - and even teenagers - can be exposed to ideas, and it doesn't inherently warp their moral fabric. By the time my son was a teenager, I had stopped worrying about what books he might find and keep them from him. He would go to the library on his own, and I trusted him to be able to choose for himself the sort of books he wanted to read.
Quote from: kidkaos2 on October 08, 2021, 07:12:50 PMI really don't think portraying Nazis as good guys would be in good taste in a game, and the same goes for demons.
Unrelated tangent: Nazis where not mudmen that sprung from the earth by the works of an evil wizard. They where normal people that bought into mass hype, and looked for cohesion and promise in a time of turbulence. Most where rightous and good, but did acts of atrocious evil because they where convinced if their rightousness and that the world had wronged them.
But nazis are humans and not wasps. Wasps destroy other species on mass and lay their eggs inside the bodies of their enemies.
A species of giant humanoid wasps would be horrifying and no amount of speeches or recognitions of how 'good or not evil' they are would stop them from being horrific.
Interesting you mention wasp-folk since WotC's UA released today have mantis-folk, hippo-folk, flying-monkey-folk, robot-gnome-folk, ooze-folk, and Astral Elves from the nether region of Uranus.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 08, 2021, 08:32:01 PM
But nazis are humans and not wasps. Wasps destroy other species on mass and lay their eggs inside the bodies of their enemies.
A species of giant humanoid wasps would be horrifying and no amount of speeches or recognitions of how 'good or not evil' they are would stop them from being horrific.
What about a rousing chorus of Kumbayah? I hear thats good if you are dealing with giant humanoid wasps.
My point with the nazis is that the social justice culture as a whole has morality kinda backwards.
Fantasy evil creatures being evil based on immutable characteristics is wrong, and killing them on these characteristics is wrong, but fantasy creatures being irredeemably evil based on their opinions is alright.
Pretty sure everybody has seen that cringe inducing extra credits video right? Where the moral go-ahead to murder people without remorse is their identification with 'bad philosophies', and orcs, xenomorphs or even zombies are not OK to be just irredeemable evil?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 08, 2021, 09:06:08 PM
My point with the nazis is that the social justice culture as a whole has morality kinda backwards.
Fantasy evil creatures being evil based on immutable characteristics is wrong, and killing them on these characteristics is wrong, but fantasy creatures being irredeemably evil based on their opinions is alright.
Pretty sure everybody has seen that cringe inducing extra credits video right? Where the moral go-ahead to murder people without remorse is their identification with 'bad philosophies', and orcs, xenomorphs or even zombies are not OK to be just irredeemable evil?
It's a cult dude, and anyone not in the cult is an infidel, you need to convert, submit or get terminated with extreme prejudice, worse if you dare speak against the cult, that's blasphemy!
Greetings!
Demons are EVIL. As others have eloquently noted, a Demon cannot, by their essential nature, "repent" or somehow be "redeemed." Of course, individual DM's can choose to construct some weird scenario where an unusual Demon somehow manages to become redeemed. I suppose that a fairly interesting and dramatic adventure can be put together pursuing or exploring such a scenario. That's all fine and good. However, as others have rightly mentioned, a Demon that somehow became "redeemed"--would necessitate the creature becoming something entirely different--in essence, returning to their original state of grace and perfection. Demons are, after all, FALLEN ANGELS. They rebelled against God's Will, and were cast down from Heaven, and in the process of that aspect of divine judgment, were forever and eternally transformed.
Demons are the ultimate expression of evil, wickedness, and rebellion. There isn't anything "redeemable" in them. The whole fascination with making Demons redeemable and this mushy, misunderstood, angst-filled drama queendom is just more bullshit. I think it ultimately forms bad storytelling, bad logic, and bad theology.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 08, 2021, 09:10:04 PM
It's a cult dude, and anyone not in the cult is an infidel, you need to convert, submit or get terminated with extreme prejudice, worse if you dare speak against the cult, that's blasphemy!
Sounds a lot like Nazis!
Quote from: jhkim on October 08, 2021, 08:13:34 PM
First of all, I disagree with kidkaos2's point here. Good Omens doesn't violate any inner moral sense for most decent people. It's non-Christian, but even as a Christian, I could appreciate its message . The same goes for Life of Brian and The Last Temptation of Christ. As a teenager, I went with a group from my church to watch The Last Temptation of Christ, and we discussed it afterwards.
Not the same thing, at least not with Good Omens. Good Omens is the humanist version of Christian morality (or if you prefer, the kind of humanist version of Christian morality tied to a civil moral code, but that's starting to pick at nits in this case). Yeah, it inverts the tropes somewhat, in order to make its point, and to go for the humor in the situation. We could argue about it for days, but the underlying framework would end up being, "God had some good ideas. More angels should have paid attention in class."
Whereas the usual version of "demons as good guys" is based on "there really is no morality at all, other than whatever we feel at the moment". The SJWs tack onto that, "and what I feel is we should destroy anything that doesn't agree with our feels". That is, Nihilism turned into a religion. That's about as far as one can get from western humanism while staying in the western world.
Once again, Chesterton nailed it more than a century ago, paraphrasing: "The humanists denied Original Sin, but believed that man was dirty in some way and thus needed washing. Those that came after claimed that the dirt on the man wasn't dirt."
Quote from: SHARK on October 08, 2021, 11:27:59 PM
Greetings!
Demons are EVIL. As others have eloquently noted, a Demon cannot, by their essential nature, "repent" or somehow be "redeemed." Of course, individual DM's can choose to construct some weird scenario where an unusual Demon somehow manages to become redeemed. I suppose that a fairly interesting and dramatic adventure can be put together pursuing or exploring such a scenario. That's all fine and good. However, as others have rightly mentioned, a Demon that somehow became "redeemed"--would necessitate the creature becoming something entirely different--in essence, returning to their original state of grace and perfection. Demons are, after all, FALLEN ANGELS. They rebelled against God's Will, and were cast down from Heaven, and in the process of that aspect of divine judgment, were forever and eternally transformed.
Demons are the ultimate expression of evil, wickedness, and rebellion. There isn't anything "redeemable" in them. The whole fascination with making Demons redeemable and this mushy, misunderstood, angst-filled drama queendom is just more bullshit. I think it ultimately forms bad storytelling, bad logic, and bad theology.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
While my setting's demons are indeed irredeemable evil spirits, one does have acknowledge that the cosmology of default D&D is not based on Christian metaphysics (their afterlife is a horror show by Christian theological standards) and, the concept of atypically aligned beings from the outer planes dates back to at least Planescape.
The main difference between then and now in the default D&D settings using the Great Wheel is scale. In Planescape there might be ONE non-lawful evil Devil on the entire Wheel and they're probably in exile and it was also probably not a natural phenomenon (helms of opposite alignment were things back then). It was basically the exception to prove the rule.
"Evolved" 5e seems to be viewing good-aligned devils as some sort of minority group within Devil society, turning it from a virtually unique exception into a rule.
Quote from: SHARK on October 08, 2021, 11:27:59 PM
Greetings!
Demons are EVIL. As others have eloquently noted, a Demon cannot, by their essential nature, "repent" or somehow be "redeemed." Of course, individual DM's can choose to construct some weird scenario where an unusual Demon somehow manages to become redeemed. I suppose that a fairly interesting and dramatic adventure can be put together pursuing or exploring such a scenario. That's all fine and good. However, as others have rightly mentioned, a Demon that somehow became "redeemed"--would necessitate the creature becoming something entirely different--in essence, returning to their original state of grace and perfection. Demons are, after all, FALLEN ANGELS. They rebelled against God's Will, and were cast down from Heaven, and in the process of that aspect of divine judgment, were forever and eternally transformed.
Demons are the ultimate expression of evil, wickedness, and rebellion. There isn't anything "redeemable" in them. The whole fascination with making Demons redeemable and this mushy, misunderstood, angst-filled drama queendom is just more bullshit. I think it ultimately forms bad storytelling, bad logic, and bad theology.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
There's quite a difference between what demons are in games and what demons are in your religion. The same applies to angels (which in many games have no direct connection with demons). The two don't have to be the same, and neither has to be linked to a god, especially when a great many fantasy worlds have multiple gods and no singular supreme god (denoted by the addition of tomatoes and sour cream). Patterning fiends and celestials inflexibly after what your religion tells you is rather limited.
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 09, 2021, 08:50:50 AM
Quote from: SHARK on October 08, 2021, 11:27:59 PM
Greetings!
Demons are EVIL. As others have eloquently noted, a Demon cannot, by their essential nature, "repent" or somehow be "redeemed." Of course, individual DM's can choose to construct some weird scenario where an unusual Demon somehow manages to become redeemed. I suppose that a fairly interesting and dramatic adventure can be put together pursuing or exploring such a scenario. That's all fine and good. However, as others have rightly mentioned, a Demon that somehow became "redeemed"--would necessitate the creature becoming something entirely different--in essence, returning to their original state of grace and perfection. Demons are, after all, FALLEN ANGELS. They rebelled against God's Will, and were cast down from Heaven, and in the process of that aspect of divine judgment, were forever and eternally transformed.
Demons are the ultimate expression of evil, wickedness, and rebellion. There isn't anything "redeemable" in them. The whole fascination with making Demons redeemable and this mushy, misunderstood, angst-filled drama queendom is just more bullshit. I think it ultimately forms bad storytelling, bad logic, and bad theology.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
While my setting's demons are indeed irredeemable evil spirits, one does have acknowledge that the cosmology of default D&D is not based on Christian metaphysics (their afterlife is a horror show by Christian theological standards) and, the concept of atypically aligned beings from the outer planes dates back to at least Planescape.
The main difference between then and now in the default D&D settings using the Great Wheel is scale. In Planescape there might be ONE non-lawful evil Devil on the entire Wheel and they're probably in exile and it was also probably not a natural phenomenon (helms of opposite alignment were things back then). It was basically the exception to prove the rule.
"Evolved" 5e seems to be viewing good-aligned devils as some sort of minority group within Devil society, turning it from a virtually unique exception into a rule.
Oh. I get it now.
Evil Devils/Demons = "Nazis"
"Good" Devils/Demons = the SJWs themselves
I remember running one game where the players came upon someone desiring their services but remained hidden behind a screen with strict instructions not to try and view him. They went ahead with the adventure and succeeded, whereupon they learned they had been working for a demon, stranded in the Prime Material Plane and needing help to return to his natural abode. Players were intrigued although wary of prying to deeply. The incident did not affect their normal attitude toward demons however.
One of the more interesting things Paizo (as bad as they are) did with PF2E was that all demons are inextricably linked with sin -- either one of the classic 'seven deadly' or an offshoot. They're so tangled up with that sin, in fact, that certain actions taken in opposition to it actually cause them damage.
(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 09, 2021, 11:33:33 AM
One of the more interesting things Paizo (as bad as they are) did with PF2E was that all demons are inextricably linked with sin -- either one of the classic 'seven deadly' or an offshoot. They're so tangled up with that sin, in fact, that certain actions taken in opposition to it actually cause them damage.
(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)
Very Faustian of them.
7 Deadly sins
7 Levels of hell
Demons of the level are tied to the sin.
Makes absolute sense to me.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 09, 2021, 11:33:33 AM(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)
Paizo actually has done a LOT right with their changes to PF2 despite their nonstop virtue signal marketing and push to quite literally center minorities of every stripe as being normal and accepted as canon in their campaign setting. The lore, PR, marketing, and character direction is singularly focused on progressivism, inclusivity, and general wokeness but the underlying GAME itself.... it's remarkably solid and in some aspect, I might even say is quite BASED. Hell, they got all sorts of pressure to strip out anything that can be seen as racist such as the word Race being replaced with Ancestry (A fair enough change IMO as it's actually more accurate in general) and Heritage but at the same time they KEPT the Ancestry specific ability score boosts ... and sure, they offered an optional rule that you can nerf one of your boosted scores to increase something else to have the ugly stumbling elf, but that's never the default assumption.
You see, they have a really REALLY good team of designers who actually, you know, have experience in building games and working/massaging things like the planar and existential aspects of the game (and to a lesser extent the main setting) into something that is cogent and makes sense. They didn't ditch alignment because they know it's important and the devs have even come out many times to push against the idea that things like Demons, Devils, and other types of creatures are usually quite irrevocably tied to the Alignment that basically defines and informs what they are, the lead creative James Jacobs has gone onto clarify in the face of pointed questioning on the topic that that is the way of things and anything that differs is BY DEFINITION an extreme and unique exception to those rules.
The sad thing is, while it's headed by real gamers with their heads on straight they fell into the trap of appealing not to the average gamer but instead to the most extreme left and in so doing became infiltrated and have for the last 5 or so years have had their arms twisted behind their back by their community, and in some cases current (or former in the case of Jessica Price and Crystal Fraiser) employees into almost exclusively centering the focus on inclusion, POC, diversity, and social activism.
Ironically enough, the best AP they've put out in nearly 10 year (in my opinion) was one that their most work crowd HATED and still rallies against to this day is one where the party are a bunch of town guards operating to protect the city/world. It was VERY well made and struck a good balance but it was released around the time that police brutality protests were happening across the nations so it became a target as if it were an adventure advocating for Blue Lives Matter or some shit.
In short, most of the Paizo staff are actually NOT worth nearly the hate they get from the center to right, worth of criticism sure it is the community culture and how they market it that's the REAL issue. PF2 itself, is pretty fucking good by itself IMO.
Quote from: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on October 09, 2021, 01:32:35 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 09, 2021, 11:33:33 AM(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)
Paizo actually has done a LOT right with their changes to PF2 despite their nonstop virtue signal marketing and push to quite literally center minorities of every stripe as being normal and accepted as canon in their campaign setting. The lore, PR, marketing, and character direction is singularly focused on progressivism, inclusivity, and general wokeness but the underlying GAME itself.... it's remarkably solid and in some aspect, I might even say is quite BASED. Hell, they got all sorts of pressure to strip out anything that can be seen as racist such as the word Race being replaced with Ancestry (A fair enough change IMO as it's actually more accurate in general) and Heritage but at the same time they KEPT the Ancestry specific ability score boosts ... and sure, they offered an optional rule that you can nerf one of your boosted scores to increase something else to have the ugly stumbling elf, but that's never the default assumption.
You see, they have a really REALLY good team of designers who actually, you know, have experience in building games and working/massaging things like the planar and existential aspects of the game (and to a lesser extent the main setting) into something that is cogent and makes sense. They didn't ditch alignment because they know it's important and the devs have even come out many times to push against the idea that things like Demons, Devils, and other types of creatures are usually quite irrevocably tied to the Alignment that basically defines and informs what they are, the lead creative James Jacobs has gone onto clarify in the face of pointed questioning on the topic that that is the way of things and anything that differs is BY DEFINITION an extreme and unique exception to those rules.
The sad thing is, while it's headed by real gamers with their heads on straight they fell into the trap of appealing not to the average gamer but instead to the most extreme left and in so doing became infiltrated and have for the last 5 or so years have had their arms twisted behind their back by their community, and in some cases current (or former in the case of Jessica Price and Crystal Fraiser) employees into almost exclusively centering the focus on inclusion, POC, diversity, and social activism.
Ironically enough, the best AP they've put out in nearly 10 year (in my opinion) was one that their most work crowd HATED and still rallies against to this day is one where the party are a bunch of town guards operating to protect the city/world. It was VERY well made and struck a good balance but it was released around the time that police brutality protests were happening across the nations so it became a target as if it were an adventure advocating for Blue Lives Matter or some shit.
In short, most of the Paizo staff are actually NOT worth nearly the hate they get from the center to right, worth of criticism sure it is the community culture and how they market it that's the REAL issue. PF2 itself, is pretty fucking good by itself IMO.
While their kneejerk ACAB reaction was cringe, the funny thing about that adventure path is that it does kind of force you to be bad cops if you think too much into it. It just to justify the standard D&D reward scheme, but if you think about it, you're basically being paid with bribes and civil asset forfeiture.
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 09, 2021, 08:50:50 AM
Quote from: SHARK on October 08, 2021, 11:27:59 PM
Greetings!
Demons are EVIL. As others have eloquently noted, a Demon cannot, by their essential nature, "repent" or somehow be "redeemed." Of course, individual DM's can choose to construct some weird scenario where an unusual Demon somehow manages to become redeemed. I suppose that a fairly interesting and dramatic adventure can be put together pursuing or exploring such a scenario. That's all fine and good. However, as others have rightly mentioned, a Demon that somehow became "redeemed"--would necessitate the creature becoming something entirely different--in essence, returning to their original state of grace and perfection. Demons are, after all, FALLEN ANGELS. They rebelled against God's Will, and were cast down from Heaven, and in the process of that aspect of divine judgment, were forever and eternally transformed.
Demons are the ultimate expression of evil, wickedness, and rebellion. There isn't anything "redeemable" in them. The whole fascination with making Demons redeemable and this mushy, misunderstood, angst-filled drama queendom is just more bullshit. I think it ultimately forms bad storytelling, bad logic, and bad theology.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
While my setting's demons are indeed irredeemable evil spirits, one does have acknowledge that the cosmology of default D&D is not based on Christian metaphysics (their afterlife is a horror show by Christian theological standards) and, the concept of atypically aligned beings from the outer planes dates back to at least Planescape.
The main difference between then and now in the default D&D settings using the Great Wheel is scale. In Planescape there might be ONE non-lawful evil Devil on the entire Wheel and they're probably in exile and it was also probably not a natural phenomenon (helms of opposite alignment were things back then). It was basically the exception to prove the rule.
"Evolved" 5e seems to be viewing good-aligned devils as some sort of minority group within Devil society, turning it from a virtually unique exception into a rule.
The cosmology of D&D doesn't have to be based on Christian theology. If you look at the demons the demons themselves are clearly based on Christian style demons even if the overall cosmology is radically different. The idea that I and I think a few other people on this thread are upset about is making a roleplaying game where you take everything about demons and leave it the same and then just flip their alignment from evil to good, for no discernable reason other than to be edgy and cool. I think this promotes an unhealthy kind of moral relativism that I would argue is bad enough in a book or movie from which you have degrees of separation, but worse in an RPG where you are attempting to inhabit a character in that world, in which you have fewer degrees of separation. Don't get me wrong, I'm not engaging in moral panic and claiming this will corrupt the youth of tomorrow. That's silly. I'm just saying it plays a contributing part towards destabilizing peoples' moral compass and thus is something that D&D would be better without.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 09, 2021, 08:43:01 AM
Quote from: jhkim on October 08, 2021, 08:13:34 PM
First of all, I disagree with kidkaos2's point here. Good Omens doesn't violate any inner moral sense for most decent people. It's non-Christian, but even as a Christian, I could appreciate its message . The same goes for Life of Brian and The Last Temptation of Christ. As a teenager, I went with a group from my church to watch The Last Temptation of Christ, and we discussed it afterwards.
Not the same thing, at least not with Good Omens. Good Omens is the humanist version of Christian morality (or if you prefer, the kind of humanist version of Christian morality tied to a civil moral code, but that's starting to pick at nits in this case). Yeah, it inverts the tropes somewhat, in order to make its point, and to go for the humor in the situation. We could argue about it for days, but the underlying framework would end up being, "God had some good ideas. More angels should have paid attention in class."
Whereas the usual version of "demons as good guys" is based on "there really is no morality at all, other than whatever we feel at the moment".
By the usual version, I'd guess you're talking about stuff like the movie The Prophecy (1995) or the TV series Supernatural. In these, neither angels or demons care about humanity, and are just fighting an endless war with each other. Their theology is terrible and they can be poorly done, though there is still usually a sort of human morality, just not as well executed as in Good Omens.
However, the D&D 5.5 preview is explicitly not this. It says that angels will be marked as typically good and demons as typically evil. I also think this is arguing over something that will make almost no difference in actual D&D campaigns. It's not making D&D into an adaptation The Prophecy - it's a token word change in some Monster Manual entries.
Quote from: kidkaos2 on October 09, 2021, 05:29:06 PM
The idea that I and I think a few other people on this thread are upset about is making a roleplaying game where you take everything about demons and leave it the same and then just flip their alignment from evil to good, for no discernable reason other than to be edgy and cool. I think this promotes an unhealthy kind of moral relativism that I would argue is bad enough in a book or movie from which you have degrees of separation, but worse in an RPG where you are attempting to inhabit a character in that world, in which you have fewer degrees of separation. Don't get me wrong, I'm not engaging in moral panic and claiming this will corrupt the youth of tomorrow. That's silly. I'm just saying it plays a contributing part towards destabilizing peoples' moral compass and thus is something that D&D would be better without.
As I noted above, this isn't what it says. It's not reversing the morality of demons. It's allowing for exceptions of a demon seeking redemption or quitting the game -- or a disillusioned angel or fallen angel.
Also, you argue that RPG text has greater moral impact, but I think it's the opposite. An RPG lets players have impact on each other, but the game books are passive things. RPGs are do-it-yourself to a large degree. So if there's a rule that a group doesn't like, they'll ignore it. The same goes for material in modules. Based on this, I think that RPGs have less effect than books or movies.
Quote from: jhkim on October 10, 2021, 01:14:23 AM
As I noted above, this isn't what it says. It's not reversing the morality of demons. It's allowing for exceptions of a demon seeking redemption or quitting the game -- or a disillusioned angel or fallen angel.
Also, you argue that RPG text has greater moral impact, but I think it's the opposite. An RPG lets players have impact on each other, but the game books are passive things. RPGs are do-it-yourself to a large degree. So if there's a rule that a group doesn't like, they'll ignore it. The same goes for material in modules. Based on this, I think that RPGs have less effect than books or movies.
Whether they are all good or only some of them are good isn't the point. Demons aren't good. They have virtually always been evil incarnate. That's the point, and making good demons serves no purpose other than to virtue signal how hip they are to current social justice philosophy. It removes the heroic good vs evil mythic quality of the game and replaces it with moral relativism instead. And I put forth that anybody old enough to have spent a good portion of their lives prior to around 2010 or so only needs to look around to see that the effects of promoting hyperindividual personal expression along with a social philosophy of grouping people according to innate characteristics and assigning moral values to those groups has had a deleterious effect on mental health. Just look at graphs of suicide rates, race relations, political polarization, etc. Adding these same philosophies to our roleplaying games isn't going to do anything good for the players of those games. It's only going to serve to further atomize society. The game already has tieflings and warlocks and doesn't need to keep pushing in that direction. And again I want to emphasize that I'm not chicken little saying the sky is falling, I'm just saying this is another factor in society that's going in what I think is the wrong direction.
And no, I did not argue that RPG text has greater moral impact. I argued that playing an RPG immerses a player in the fiction more than reading a book or watching a movie. Completely different argument.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.
I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.
I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.
Quote from: BronzeDragon on October 12, 2021, 05:02:01 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.
I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.
I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.
Agreed on the naming of Baatezu, etc.
Personally, I think that 2e was a high point in D&D.
Quote from: BronzeDragon on October 12, 2021, 05:02:01 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.
I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.
I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.
I make it easy in my world; there's just demons.
Different demons have different approaches to evil, but all of them are dedicated to bringing misery and ruin and to dragging as many souls as possible into Hell out of sheer spite (they lost, know they lost, and are now just trying to do as much damage as possible on the way out because every soul they corrupt denies it it's place in Paradise).
They can't be redeemed because they made their choice with full knowledge of the eternal consequences... better to reign in hell and we prove our power over God by stealing as many of the souls that belong to Him as we can. The demons freely chose and got exactly what they wanted.
The only ones fickle in my setting are the Eldritch; primal spirits too cowardly to pick a side and so have been exiled into the world in physical bodies (as giants, dragons, sylphs, undine, dryads, unicorns, etc.) until they can prove themselves worthy of returning to Heaven (ones seeking the goal are often PCs, those seeking their own path are often opponents for PCs to face).
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 12, 2021, 08:17:55 AM
Quote from: BronzeDragon on October 12, 2021, 05:02:01 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.
I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.
I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.
I make it easy in my world; there's just demons.
Different demons have different approaches to evil, but all of them are dedicated to bringing misery and ruin and to dragging as many souls as possible into Hell out of sheer spite (they lost, know they lost, and are now just trying to do as much damage as possible on the way out because every soul they corrupt denies it it's place in Paradise).
They can't be redeemed because they made their choice with full knowledge of the eternal consequences... better to reign in hell and we prove our power over God by stealing as many of the souls that belong to Him as we can. The demons freely chose and got exactly what they wanted.
The only ones fickle in my setting are the Eldritch; primal spirits too cowardly to pick a side and so have been exiled into the world in physical bodies (as giants, dragons, sylphs, undine, dryads, unicorns, etc.) until they can prove themselves worthy of returning to Heaven (ones seeking the goal are often PCs, those seeking their own path are often opponents for PCs to face).
Found the In Nomine fan! :)
(Just kidding on you. I like In Nomine.)
Quote from: BronzeDragon on October 12, 2021, 05:02:01 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.
I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.
I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.
I can't help but make fun of bate-zu and tan'ar'r'i'''', much less the ones named after a notoriously bad car. They're woefully uneuphonic. Balor is good, but that's a name from Celtic mythology rather than fantasy mouth-garbage made up by someone with no grasp of language, and it's not like it's an invention of 2e: "Balor" is right there in a large font at the top of the 1st edition MM entry for the type VI, and further alternate names are listed in the DMG. The idea that the demons are so unknown that they're still referred to as types rather than having colloquial names appeals to me, though they were moving away from that concept by the time of Tsojcanth. Demons and devils by contrast are strongly resonant, though "daemon" was getting a little silly.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 12, 2021, 08:39:46 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 12, 2021, 08:17:55 AM
Quote from: BronzeDragon on October 12, 2021, 05:02:01 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.
I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.
I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.
I make it easy in my world; there's just demons.
Different demons have different approaches to evil, but all of them are dedicated to bringing misery and ruin and to dragging as many souls as possible into Hell out of sheer spite (they lost, know they lost, and are now just trying to do as much damage as possible on the way out because every soul they corrupt denies it it's place in Paradise).
They can't be redeemed because they made their choice with full knowledge of the eternal consequences... better to reign in hell and we prove our power over God by stealing as many of the souls that belong to Him as we can. The demons freely chose and got exactly what they wanted.
The only ones fickle in my setting are the Eldritch; primal spirits too cowardly to pick a side and so have been exiled into the world in physical bodies (as giants, dragons, sylphs, undine, dryads, unicorns, etc.) until they can prove themselves worthy of returning to Heaven (ones seeking the goal are often PCs, those seeking their own path are often opponents for PCs to face).
Found the In Nomine fan! :)
(Just kidding on you. I like In Nomine.)
I've just come to the conclusion that heroic fantasy settings are more interesting when there are extremes. Gray vs. Grey morality might be more realistic, but it's also something you can experience in real life just by turning on the news... so it's less of an escape.
Having stark blacks and whites in addition to the greys in between helps a lot in keeping a setting from degenerating into mush.
Most important I've found is a willingness to play at least some of the heroic tropes straight rather than as subversions. The seeming big good turning out to actually be no better than the bad guy (or even worse; while the bad guy will often be given some motive or background element to make them seem almost justified if you just squint a bit) is such a tired out and overused trope trotted out by the cultural subversives at this point that playing the big good and big bad straight actually feels fresh.
As for specific types; I leaned into Semitic and Assyrian mythology for the most part; Ifrit (fire/smoke), Jinn (miasmas), Shedim (storms), Kul'ul (briny depths; the last one being a variant of Kulullû; a fish man) with Moloch, Lilith, Pazuzu and Tiamat as names demon lords (I'm not using the OGL so Tiamat gets to be a proper one-headed demonic sea serpent instead of a five-headed dragon goddess).
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 03:41:52 PM
...
This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.
The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).
The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.
...
The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.
The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.
I make it easy in my world; there's just demons.
Different demons have different approaches to evil, but all of them are dedicated to bringing misery and ruin and to dragging as many souls as possible into Hell out of sheer spite (they lost, know they lost, and are now just trying to do as much damage as possible on the way out because every soul they corrupt denies it it's place in Paradise).
They can't be redeemed because they made their choice with full knowledge of the eternal consequences... better to reign in hell and we prove our power over God by stealing as many of the souls that belong to Him as we can. The demons freely chose and got exactly what they wanted.
The only ones fickle in my setting are the Eldritch; primal spirits too cowardly to pick a side and so have been exiled into the world in physical bodies (as giants, dragons, sylphs, undine, dryads, unicorns, etc.) until they can prove themselves worthy of returning to Heaven (ones seeking the goal are often PCs, those seeking their own path are often opponents for PCs to face).
I like a lot of where you are going with this.
Keeping things 'Old-testament' is a great way to get a monotheistic faith that is relatable and avoid going all left-field weird "totally-not" Christianity belief system.
In your setting how does the old faith pass down spiritual knowledge? Is it an Oral tradition?
Or maybe they have sacred scriptures written down in a Book of Remembrance that was begun by their first Prophet, who also happened to be the first man in creation? That would be cool...
Quote from: Jaeger on October 12, 2021, 07:28:21 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 03:41:52 PM
...
This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.
The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).
The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.
...
The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.
The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.
I make it easy in my world; there's just demons.
Different demons have different approaches to evil, but all of them are dedicated to bringing misery and ruin and to dragging as many souls as possible into Hell out of sheer spite (they lost, know they lost, and are now just trying to do as much damage as possible on the way out because every soul they corrupt denies it it's place in Paradise).
They can't be redeemed because they made their choice with full knowledge of the eternal consequences... better to reign in hell and we prove our power over God by stealing as many of the souls that belong to Him as we can. The demons freely chose and got exactly what they wanted.
The only ones fickle in my setting are the Eldritch; primal spirits too cowardly to pick a side and so have been exiled into the world in physical bodies (as giants, dragons, sylphs, undine, dryads, unicorns, etc.) until they can prove themselves worthy of returning to Heaven (ones seeking the goal are often PCs, those seeking their own path are often opponents for PCs to face).
I like a lot of where you are going with this.
Keeping things 'Old-testament' is a great way to get a monotheistic faith that is relatable and avoid going all left-field weird "totally-not" Christianity belief system.
In your setting how does the old faith pass down spiritual knowledge? Is it an Oral tradition?
Or maybe they have sacred scriptures written down in a Book of Remembrance that was begun by their first Prophet, who also happened to be the first man in creation? That would be cool...
Or you could go all in on a totally Christian monotheism, doesn't mean other religions don't exist, it only means that there's only one true faith.
Quote from: Jaeger on October 12, 2021, 07:28:21 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 03:41:52 PM
...
This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.
The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).
The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.
...
The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.
The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.
I make it easy in my world; there's just demons.
Different demons have different approaches to evil, but all of them are dedicated to bringing misery and ruin and to dragging as many souls as possible into Hell out of sheer spite (they lost, know they lost, and are now just trying to do as much damage as possible on the way out because every soul they corrupt denies it it's place in Paradise).
They can't be redeemed because they made their choice with full knowledge of the eternal consequences... better to reign in hell and we prove our power over God by stealing as many of the souls that belong to Him as we can. The demons freely chose and got exactly what they wanted.
The only ones fickle in my setting are the Eldritch; primal spirits too cowardly to pick a side and so have been exiled into the world in physical bodies (as giants, dragons, sylphs, undine, dryads, unicorns, etc.) until they can prove themselves worthy of returning to Heaven (ones seeking the goal are often PCs, those seeking their own path are often opponents for PCs to face).
I like a lot of where you are going with this.
Keeping things 'Old-testament' is a great way to get a monotheistic faith that is relatable and avoid going all left-field weird "totally-not" Christianity belief system.
In your setting how does the old faith pass down spiritual knowledge? Is it an Oral tradition?
Or maybe they have sacred scriptures written down in a Book of Remembrance that was begun by their first Prophet, who also happened to be the first man in creation? That would be cool...
Well, it varies a bit with Sect; because one of the first things to know about the Old Faith is that not unified and hasn't been since the fall of the near mythical First Empire of Man (which might be best understood in the game setting as being roughly akin to what Ancient Egypt was in our late 19th century).
The short version of that is that after the demons were cast out Man built their own empire and worshiped the Source. During this time the original Speakers (a common alternate translation for the Hebrew word for prophet) were replaced by an organized priesthood who began to write down the history and the dogmas.
But man had been corrupted by their time being ruled by the demons and desired the same luxuries the demons had enjoyed from the fruits of men's labors. So they used the now lost branch of arcane magic called biomancy to transform animals into beastmen (minotaurs, lizardmen, centaurs, etc.) to slave for them as they had slaved for the demons. It was about this time that the prayers to the Source started to go unanswered and the priesthood turned to arcane magic to produce their miracles.
Then the beastmen rebelled, just as men had rebelled against the demons, and with the aid of a pantheon of twelve animal-headed gods. The beastmen tore down the First Empire of Man as man's prayers for deliverance went unanswered by the Source.
In their defeat, man did not blame themselves for their sins against The Source; they blamed the Source for not intervening to save them from the consequences of their actions and so adopted the religion of their conquerors... the most modern incarnation of which is called the Via Praetorum (i.e. the Praetorian Way, official state religion of the recently fallen Praetorian Empire). The official position became that Source was a lie created by the primal spirits and the primal spirits were little better than demons.
Thus, the Old Faith became a minority and often persecuted religion followed and maintained by only three groups;
- the Eldritch (and their human students): the Eldritch are primal spirits exiled into physical bodies for their cowardice in not picking a side in the war between the primal spirits and the demons until they had earned their redemptions (this based on the folk beliefs about the fae and various nature spirits being angels neither good enough for heaven nor wicked enough for hell).
When the Cataclysm struck, a number of them saw the opportunity to redeem themselves by spreading their knowledge of the Source and his worship among the barbarian survivors, ironically using the same argument that Men had been abandoned by the gods of the Via Praetorum. These followers of the Old Faith emphasize a personal relationship with The Source, often filtered through the personal elemental affinity of the Eldritch who brought the knowledge to them. This has in turn brought the primal spirits back to them and for mystics able to wield primal magic to be born among them (called "Sorcerers" because their magic comes from The Source).
They're basically rebuilding an oral tradition based on stories and sayings shared with them by the Eldritch and with a new line of Speakers committing these to memory and passing them on to chosen acolytes.
- the Remnant: before the fall of the First Empire, men and women of particular faith who had rejected the Empire's decadence were called as Speakers by the primal spirits to gather members of the faithful and take them far away from the First Empire. When news of the empire's fall reached them they knew they were a people chosen by The Source and so continued in the Old Faith.
Persecution kept these groups fairly small and isolated from each other, but they had the written texts which they copied and transmitted to their people, albeit often with the flavor of their respective Speakers and their successors attached to any supplemental works.
- The Malfeans: when the demons needed taskmasters for their human slaves, they bred with the most comely of the humans to create the Malfeans. Humans twisted by demonic essence that breeds true through every generation. Despite being just more favored slaves, the Malfeans were the face of man's captors and so faced brutal reprisals when the Demon Empire collapsed and the survivors were forced to flee into the harshest and most distant reaches of the world.
The oral history of the Malfeans holds that, before the demons were cast into the outer darkness, the leader of the primal spirits came to the Malfeans and spirited them out before they could be trapped in the same magics that would forever bar the demons from the world. When the Prince of the Primal Spirits had delivered them to safety, he made the Malfeans a promise. They must atone for their sins, but if they would swear to The Covenant with The Source and remain faithful, in the fullness of time the Source would send a Redeemer to end their curse and their persecution.
Thus, rather ironically, those most visibly tainted by the original sins of their ancestors are among the most faithful to what is now called the Old Faith. Their Speakers faithfully commit the teachings said to have been given to them directly by The Source after their deliverance from the Demon Empire to memory and pass them on to their acolytes and to the people. One of the Malfean peoples' pass times is contests where storytellers weave the tenants of the Old Faith into their narratives in clever ways and are judged by the Speakers for their accuracy and the people for how entertaining the resulting story is.
The general lore and teachings of the Old Faith tends to fall under the the truism "The important things are often simple. The simple things are often hard."
One example of an Old Faith profession is "You are all the beloved children of The Source. Love one another. The world is a gift from your loving Creator. Care for it as you would a treasured heirloom."
Many of its practices center around seeking spiritual communion with The Source through meditation and contemplation. They also venerate the primal spirits and honored ancestors as intercessors between Men and The Source. Their public rites include the anointing of newborns, marriage, funerals, acts of atonement and an oath called The Covenant that followers swear to when they come of age.
As mentioned, their religious leaders are called Speakers (akin to prophets), but they also acknowledge Mystics who are gifted with the ability to work wonders by The Source as worthy of respect (though not necessarily as religious leaders).
Mystics are akin to the Biblical Judges and while they're available as a PC class, the fluff associated with them is that they are chosen by The Source to receive supernatural gifts; it is not something you can acquire by your own effort (basically keeping with doctrines distinguishing between gifts recieved by God's will; ergo good; and the seeking out supernatural power to work your own will; ergo bad... demon worship and necromancy in the setting being common examples of the latter).
And that's just The Old Faith. There's also The Via Praetorum of Praetorian Empire (akin to the Roman state religion), Bestianism (the original religion of the Beastmen), and the Astral Court of the Elves. Similarly, because all the gods are distant and rarely heard outside of dreams and visions and the otherworlds unreachable by the living, there also exist agnostics and even atheists (it is a not uncommon belief among wizards that the gods and primal spirits are just self-aware programs within the Arcane Web and so are worthy of respect for their power, but not of worship since they were probably created by humans in the distant past).
But this answer is already quite long so I'll just say that the section on religion is 16 pages and only barely covers the basics (there are also some particulars in the species section; ex. the nearby Orc empire worships a variation of the Via Praetorum that includes their deified emperor who claimed descent from the last Praetorian Emperor... the orcs of the setting are humans mutated by the Cataclysm so this claim might even be true).
Quote from: kidkaos2 on October 12, 2021, 03:52:23 AM
Quote from: jhkim on October 10, 2021, 01:14:23 AM
As I noted above, this isn't what it says. It's not reversing the morality of demons. It's allowing for exceptions of a demon seeking redemption or quitting the game -- or a disillusioned angel or fallen angel.
Whether they are all good or only some of them are good isn't the point. Demons aren't good. They have virtually always been evil incarnate. That's the point, and making good demons serves no purpose other than to virtue signal how hip they are to current social justice philosophy. It removes the heroic good vs evil mythic quality of the game and replaces it with moral relativism instead.
kidkaos2 - Have you read Good Omens or seen the adaptation? I've used it as an example in discussion with you, but you haven't mentioned it in your replies. There are other examples. Pat linked the game account Tales of Wyre earlier, which is another example,
https://www.enworld.org/threads/tales-of-wyre.58227/
The short form is, I don't think these show moral relativism. If you're not willing to discuss these cases, are there any you would discuss?
BTW, for Christians who really want to play a Christian, the Pathology Guy (http://pathguy.com/), a pathologist who's a big D&D fan, had the suggestion of 'prayer fellowships' that would preserve most of the polytheistic mechanics while still allowing your Christian cleric to follow God. By 5e rules you could have prayer fellowships of life, light, etc. Nobody says the church has to have the same shape in the fantasy world it does in ours.
There's been some interesting discussion (theologically speaking) about what God actually meant with the first Commandment.
The text is usually, 'Thou shalt not have any other gods before me' -- but it doesn't say 'thou shalt have NO other god beside me'. Which suggests that God only insisted on being given top billing in any veneration, not that he would be the sole act.
Quote from: Null42 on October 13, 2021, 07:59:54 AM
BTW, for Christians who really want to play a Christian, the Pathology Guy (http://pathguy.com/), a pathologist who's a big D&D fan, had the suggestion of 'prayer fellowships' that would preserve most of the polytheistic mechanics while still allowing your Christian cleric to follow God. By 5e rules you could have prayer fellowships of life, light, etc. Nobody says the church has to have the same shape in the fantasy world it does in ours.
Or you can play games that support a Christian viewpoint instead of giving money to big corporations that hate Christians.
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 13, 2021, 08:22:58 AM
Quote from: Null42 on October 13, 2021, 07:59:54 AM
BTW, for Christians who really want to play a Christian, the Pathology Guy (http://pathguy.com/), a pathologist who's a big D&D fan, had the suggestion of 'prayer fellowships' that would preserve most of the polytheistic mechanics while still allowing your Christian cleric to follow God. By 5e rules you could have prayer fellowships of life, light, etc. Nobody says the church has to have the same shape in the fantasy world it does in ours.
Or you can play games that support a Christian viewpoint instead of giving money to big corporations that hate Christians.
I'll settle for games that aren't designed by people who want to destroy Western civilization, root and branch. By some definitions of "support a Christian viewpoint", those games will necessarily be somewhat aligned, but there's a lot of room in that part of the Venn diagram for things that don't seem to support anything in particular.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 13, 2021, 11:13:12 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 13, 2021, 08:22:58 AM
Quote from: Null42 on October 13, 2021, 07:59:54 AM
BTW, for Christians who really want to play a Christian, the Pathology Guy (http://pathguy.com/), a pathologist who's a big D&D fan, had the suggestion of 'prayer fellowships' that would preserve most of the polytheistic mechanics while still allowing your Christian cleric to follow God. By 5e rules you could have prayer fellowships of life, light, etc. Nobody says the church has to have the same shape in the fantasy world it does in ours.
Or you can play games that support a Christian viewpoint instead of giving money to big corporations that hate Christians.
I'll settle for games that aren't designed by people who want to destroy Western civilization, root and branch. By some definitions of "support a Christian viewpoint", those games will necessarily be somewhat aligned, but there's a lot of room in that part of the Venn diagram for things that don't seem to support anything in particular.
The person in question was specifically talking about how you could kinda squint to make something Christian work in 5e despite all the built-in polytheistic assumptions. As such, the specific reference to Christian-themed games felt appropriate as a reply.
If you care enough about Christian themes in your RP, put your money where your mouth is and support games that promote Christian themes.
If you care about a system that doesn't promote anything all (beyond general Western values... which are ultimately Christian values with the serial numbers filed off) that is obviously where you put your support.
In both cases though I feel you shouldn't waste your time figuring out how to make a game system antithetical to both sorta work if you squint enough and in so doing justify giving financial support to the people who hate you (i.e. you can still use WotC's system even though they hate you if you just tilt your head at the right angle and pretend polytheistic social justice gods are the same as Christianity and Western Civilization).
I'm not disagreeing with you. It was more of a remark that I've got a much lower bar, but WotC (and some others) cannot even manage to clear that. Which means you are even more correct than you state--anyone that does want a game that can support Christian themes has even more reason to avoid them. I mean, if someone with those desires is going to settle for less, at least settle for something in the ballpark, not stick with the polar opposite.
Some people dislike fast food. They want something prepared with more care. Fine. Depending on how strongly they feel it, they might occasionally grab a fast food sandwich when in a hurry. I would not expect them to deliberately and repeatedly seek out the worst managed, dirtiest, most vile fast food joint in town. However, people are strange.
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 12, 2021, 09:34:13 PM
... so I'll just say that the section on religion is 16 pages and only barely covers the basics (there are also some particulars in the species section; ex. the nearby Orc empire worships a variation of the Via Praetorum that includes their deified emperor who claimed descent from the last Praetorian Emperor... the orcs of the setting are humans mutated by the Cataclysm so this claim might even be true).
A game with such robust and game provoking lore is quite enticing after wasted time spent in the parched wilderness of one-page rpgs and zines.
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 12, 2021, 09:34:13 PMLore
Uh...Any way I could get that somehow? Id be willing to shell out some shells.
Quote from: Drude on October 13, 2021, 02:16:24 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 12, 2021, 09:34:13 PM
... so I'll just say that the section on religion is 16 pages and only barely covers the basics (there are also some particulars in the species section; ex. the nearby Orc empire worships a variation of the Via Praetorum that includes their deified emperor who claimed descent from the last Praetorian Emperor... the orcs of the setting are humans mutated by the Cataclysm so this claim might even be true).
A game with such robust and game provoking lore is quite enticing after wasted time spent in the parched wilderness of one-page rpgs and zines.
Lol. Then I might have the game for you. The overall project including the Player's Guide and Game Master's Guide is just a hair over 250,000 words.
For those interested, shoot me a private message and I'll get you the links to the finished beta-test documents.
Here's the Player's Guide Table of Contents;
Chapter 1: Game Rules .......................... 6Three Important Rules ........................... 12
Basic Glossary ........................................... 13
Initiative and Turns ................................. 14
Action Layout ............................................ 16
Action Use Types ..................................... 17
Distance, Space & Size........................... 18
Targets & Range ....................................... 20
Line of Sight & Effect .............................. 22
The Action Check .................................... 24
Modifiers .................................................... 26
Action Effects & Keywords ................... 28
Duration ..................................................... 30
Movement .................................................. 32
Chapter 2: Actions & Resources ....... 38Edge, Focus & Heroic Surges................ 38
Basic Actions ............................................. 40
Abilities ....................................................... 42
-Acrobatics (REF) ..................................... 46
-Arcana (INT) ............................................ 48
-Culture (INT) ........................................... 49
-Deceit (PRE) ............................................ 50
-Engineering (INT) ................................... 52
-Fitness (END) .......................................... 54
-Insight (WIT) ........................................... 56
-Intimidate (PRE) ..................................... 57
-Medicine (WIT) ...................................... 58
-Nature (WIT) ........................................... 59
-Persuade (PRE) ....................................... 60
-Stealth (REF)............................................ 61
Chapter 3: Creating a Character ....... 62Player Motivations .................................. 64
Heroic Virtues........................................... 66
Basic Player Character Traits ............... 68
Improving your Character .................... 69
Picking Options as you Level ............... 70
Chapter 4: Player Species .................. 72Species Entries ......................................... 76
Beastman ................................................... 78
Dwarf........................................................... 86
Eldritch........................................................ 92
Elf ................................................................102
Fetch ..........................................................110
Gnome ......................................................116
Golem........................................................122
Human ......................................................128
Malfean .....................................................136
Mutant.......................................................148
Chapter 5: Classes ............................. 156Weapon & Implement Attacks ......... 158
Fighter ....................................................... 160
Gadgeteer ................................................ 162
Mastermind ............................................. 164
Mystic ........................................................ 166
Theurge .................................................... 168
Wizard ...................................................... 170
Fighter Paths ........................................... 172
-Brigand (slayer) .................................... 172
-Captain (enabler) ................................ 172
-Defender (guardian) ........................... 174
-Disabler (controller) ........................... 176
-Ravager (slayer) ................................... 177
-Sentinel (guardian) ............................. 177
-Sharpshooter (controller) ................. 178
-Striker (slayer) ...................................... 178
Spellcasting Paths ................................. 180
-Abjurer (guardian) .............................. 180
-Benedictor (enabler) .......................... 182
-Empowered (slayer) ........................... 182
-Interdictor (controller) ...................... 183
-Maledictor (slayer) .............................. 183
-Summoner (controller) ...................... 184
Aspects ..................................................... 186
Clever Tricks ........................................... 188
Dweomers ............................................... 190
Minor Spells ............................................ 191
Talents ...................................................... 192
-Basic Talents......................................... 192
-Casting Talents .................................... 194
-Infliction Talents ................................. 198
-Martial Talents ..................................... 206
-Stance Talents...................................... 210
Chapter 6: Backgrounds................... 212Background Elements .......................... 215
Languages .............................................. 215
Skilled Abilities .................................... 216
Boons ...................................................... 216
Basic Boons ............................................. 217
Arcanist .................................................... 218
Aristocrat ................................................. 220
Artisan ...................................................... 224
Barbarian ................................................. 228
Commoner .............................................. 232
Entertainer .............................................. 236
Military ..................................................... 240
Outlaw ...................................................... 244
Religious ...................................................248
Traveler .....................................................250
Cantrips ....................................................254
Physical Adept Boons ..........................255
Primal Boons ...........................................256
Utility Spells ............................................258
Shift Form ................................................260
Background Companions ...................262
-Bodyguard .............................................263
-Enforcer ..................................................265
-Familiar...................................................266
-Followers................................................267
-Loyal Beast ............................................268
-Medic ......................................................270
-Warriors .................................................271
Chapter 7: Equipment....................... 272Wealth and Money .............................272
Starting Equipment.............................272
Equipment Quality .............................274
Damaging Equipment ........................274
Selling Equipment ...............................275
Trade Goods .........................................275
Armor ........................................................276
Weapons ..................................................278
-Weapon Qualities ...............................280
-Weapons Statistics Tables................282
Spellcasting Implements .....................284
Adventuring Gear ..................................288
Food, Lodging & Services ....................292
Beasts & Tack .........................................294
Vehicles ....................................................302
-Designing a Vehicle ............................302
-Vehicle Features ..................................303
-Vehicle Layout......................................306
-Vehicle Equipment .............................306
-Vehicle Examples ................................307
Siege Engines ..........................................308
Land and Structures ..............................310
Hazards & Traps .....................................313
Magic Items .............................................318
-Permanent Item Limits......................320
-Magic Consumables ...........................320
-Magic Rituals ........................................322
-Teleportation Circles .........................329
-Permanent Magic Items ....................330
Appendix 1: Keyword Glossary ...... 336Appendix 2: The Count of Time...... 341Appendix 3: The Cosmos ................. 342Appendix 4: Praetorian Religion .... 344-The Old Faith.......................................... 344
-The Via Praetorum ............................... 350
-Bestianism ............................................... 354
-The Astral Court .................................... 356
Appendix 5: Common Hirelings ..... 360Character Sheet ................................. 362
Here's the GM's Guide Contents;
Chapter 1: Setting up the Game .......... 6You are the Narrator ................................. 6
You're Not Alone ........................................ 7
Engaging Your Players .............................. 8
Using the Heroic Virtues ....................... 10
Setting the Tone ...................................... 12
Making the Setting Your Own............. 16
Solving the Mysteries ............................. 18
Integrating the Player's Characters ... 20
Optional Rules .......................................... 22
-Character Creation & Leveling ............ 22
-Combat Rules .......................................... 26
Chapter 2: Creating Your Setting ..... 28Step One: Region Basics ........................ 30
-The Climate ............................................ 30
-The Terrain .............................................. 32
-Regional Boundaries ............................ 33
-Unusual Features................................... 34
Step Two: Realms .................................... 36
-Realm Numbers and Locations ......... 36
-Population Size ...................................... 38
-Demographics ........................................ 38
-Population Distribution ...................... 39
-Species Integration ............................... 40
-Realm Government .............................. 42
-Realm Suffrage ....................................... 43
-Legal Systems ......................................... 44
-Religious Tolerance .............................. 46
-Military Force.......................................... 47
-Realm Resources ................................... 48
Step Three: Settlements ........................ 50
-Settlement Numbers and Size .......... 50
-Settlement Confluences ..................... 52
-Settlement Advantages ....................... 53
-Points of Interest ................................... 54
-Settlement Services .............................. 55
-Settlement Obstacles .......................... 56
Step Four: Names and Integration ..... 58
-Basic Naming Advice ........................... 58
-Integration ............................................... 60
-A Step at a Time .................................... 60
Step Five: Ruins ........................................ 64
-Ruin Distance ......................................... 66
-Ruin Size .................................................. 66
-Ruin Purpose .......................................... 67
-Ruin Condition ....................................... 68
-Ruin Importance .................................... 70
-Ruin Threats............................................ 72
-Threat Relations ..................................... 73
-Ruin Danger ............................................ 74
-Location Contents ................................. 76
Step Six: Events ......................................... 78
-Historical Events .................................... 78
-Current Events ........................................ 80
-Foreshadowed Events .......................... 81
-Notable Events Table ............................ 82
Chapter 3: Populating Your World ... 84Creating NPCs ........................................... 84
Death and NPCs ...................................... 84
Non-Combat NPCs ................................ 86
Allied Combat NPCs ............................. 86
Normal Creatures .................................. 87
Custom Creatures.................................. 87
Re-fluff ....................................................... 87
Re-Level .................................................... 88
Standard Build ........................................ 90
PC-Light Build ...................................... 100
Astral Servitors (optional species).... 102
Diabolist (optional class) ..................... 106
Necromancer (optional class) ............ 110
Chapter 4: Adventures & Conflicts 114Conflict CP Budgets ............................. 116
Three "Rules" of Battle Design .......... 116
Improvised Actions ............................... 118
Afflictions ................................................. 120
Managing Larger Battles ..................... 124
The Environment................................... 126
-Constructed Terrain ........................... 128
-Natural Terrain .................................... 132
-Supernatural Terrain ......................... 134
-Lighting .................................................. 134
-Weather and Atmosphere ............... 136
Forest Environments .......................... 138
Plains Environments .......................... 139
Hills Environments ............................. 140
Mountain Environments ................... 141
Swamp/Marsh Environments.......... 142
Desert Environments ......................... 143
The Deep ............................................... 144
Chapter 5: Campaign Rewards ....... 146Types of Rewards ................................ 146
Growth Rewards ................................. 146
Renown Awards .................................. 149
Wealth Rewards ................................. 151
Magic Rewards .................................... 152
Artifacts.................................................. 154
Chapter 6: Standard Opponents ..... 158Opponent Master List & CP Values.....162Men ............................................................166
-Centaurs .................................................168
-Crocodin ................................................170
-Dracosi ...................................................172
-Dwarves .................................................174
-Goblins ...................................................178
-Golems ...................................................180
-Humans ..................................................184
-Kobolds ..................................................192
-Malfeans .................................................194
-Minotaurs...............................................198
-Myrmidons ............................................200
-Orcs & Ogres ........................................202
-Trolls........................................................208
-Troglodytes ...........................................210
-Wolfen ....................................................212
Beasts ........................................................214
-Bears .......................................................215
-Chimera .................................................216
-Crocodiles..............................................218
-Drakes ....................................................220
-Great Cats..............................................222
-Griffins ....................................................224
-Hell Hounds ..........................................226
-Hell Horse..............................................228
-Hellcats...................................................229
-Hydra ......................................................230
-Leviathans..............................................233
-Manticores .............................................234
-Rams, Dire .............................................235
-Rocs .........................................................236
-Rustwyrms .............................................237
-Snakes .....................................................238
-Swarms ...................................................240
-Wolves ....................................................242
-Wyverns .................................................244
Astral Servitors .......................................246
-Banshees & Barghests .......................247
-Elves ........................................................248
-Fetches ...................................................252
-The Furies ..............................................254
-Kar-Taxsu, God of War ......................255
-Nightmare/Night Hag ........................256
-Sphinx .....................................................257
-Succubus ................................................258
Eldritch ..................................................... 260
-Elemental Presence .............................. 260-Briar Beast............................................. 262
-Brownies ................................................ 263
-Dragons.................................................. 264
-Dryad & Drus ....................................... 280
-Elementals............................................. 282
-Giants ..................................................... 288
-Sprites..................................................... 296
-Sylph ....................................................... 299
-Undine.................................................... 300
-Unicorn .................................................. 301
-Werebeasts ........................................... 302
-Winter Wolf ......................................... 304
-Wycks ..................................................... 305
Demons .................................................... 306
-Demonic Possession ............................. 308
-Demonic Presence ................................ 309-Abyssal Dragons .................................. 310
-Cambions .............................................. 312
-Demonlings .......................................... 316
-Ifrit – Ember Demons ........................ 318
-Jinn – Miasma Demons ..................... 323
-Kul'ul – Brine Demons ...................... 328
-Shedim – Dust Demons .................... 334
Horrors ..................................................... 338
-Anathema of all Life ............................. 338
-The Shadow of Death .......................... 339-Animated Dead ................................... 340
-Gallu........................................................ 342
-Ghouls .................................................... 344
-Horrid Masses ...................................... 346
-Lich .......................................................... 348
-Shades .................................................... 351
-Skeletal Horde ..................................... 352
-Wights .................................................... 354
-Wraiths .................................................. 359
Appendix: Keyword Glossary .......... 362
QuoteLet me put it this way, a Demon can't be Good, it might do a good deed to further it's plans but it and it's plans are Evil.
The moment a Demon stops being Evil it also stops being a Demon.
The same is true in the reverse for Angels.
If you go against this then that's moral relativism and it's just a grey mush.
There's well written and even fun grey mush moral relativism out there. Doesn't stop being grey mush moral relativism tho.
No Geeky, not necessarily. Moral relativism starts where the same action we treat as good or evil, depending on some subjective perspective things.
However on ontological grounds... that depends on specific cosmological model to follow, I remember from 3.0/3.5 era fallen celestials and ascended fiends, which nevertheless kept much of their form. Let's remember that in classic D&D as much as Good and Evil (and Law and Chaos) are in conflict, they are nothing like in real life cosmologies and religions, because by all accounts all four are equal (and that's big moral relativism compared to real world concepts), and reality is basically estabilished by their mutual relations (not to mention good and evil beings are clearly able to spend time on their respective planes while various shenanigans are happening. So it all depends. Not gonna lie I consider D&D metaphysics hot radioactive mess, so for me it's all fair game.
If you take cosmological model from Catholicism for instance then angels and demons are literally the same type of outsider, there is no movement between those fractions at all, but also not fancy transformations - fallen angels are fallen because they choose to rebel, that did not made them not angels (because you cannot change your basic ontological nature).
When murder stop being Evil act in D&D then sure accussations of moral relativism will be justified. If some ice devil can turn chaotic, and be like transformed in glabrezu by process, that's whatever.
QuoteWhy then can a Demon be Good or an Angel Evil? Fallen Angles have a name = Demons, likewise redeemed/good Demons have a name = Angels.
Anything else IS Moral Relativism.
In Catholicism. In fancy quasi-medieval pagan world of Greyhawk?
Like you know devil and demon in Christianity is the same shit, genies in islam are basically on ontological level of Celtic fey, archonts are taken straight out of gnosticism, and don't even start talking about agathions/guardinals :P And if we talk about pagan equivalencies then Angel means messenger (4E went with this trope as they realised the division between angels and archons is kinda pointless in D&D so they turned angels to divine herolds of gods - with alignment fitting deity they serve, while archonts kept being LG celestial independent nation) and Daemon means like any kind of spirit - in Pathfinder you have NE daemons and NG agathions but both are derived from Greek daemons - and if mythological root had been kept we would talk about kakadaemons for NE and agathiodaemons for NG.
QuoteI agree. I thought the novel was handled well, especially because it was directly parodying The Omen, which was a very wrong-headed take on Christian theology IMO. There is still clear right and wrong in Good Omens - it's just that the angels aren't on the side of right. That makes it an explicitly humanist rejection of the theology of The Omen - but its humanism still has an absolute moral compass. In Good Omens, killing Damien as a toddler would be wrong, because he still has a chance at redemption.
Well that depends on what Damien was. Remember in "Omen" they discovered it was spawn of Devil and ... rotweiller, so it's ontological status and chances of redemption become way more murky. Not to mention being not born from human cannot be human in Christian ontology.
So from my perspective as Catholic shanking Damian, the human-looking puppy is well possible to justify (because he is a dog dammit), but same vision that Devil can fuck a dog and make human-looking spawn of this, and he can just casualy murder everyone around given spawn in Final Destination way... that's somehow heretical :P
QuoteTheir cosmology was especially worst. Just disrespectful to real designers.
It's definitely more interesting than Great Wheel which was claearly designed by someone with massive OCD and too much of free time.
QuoteHowever, as others have rightly mentioned, a Demon that somehow became "redeemed"--would necessitate the creature becoming something entirely different--in essence, returning to their original state of grace and perfection. Demons are, after all, FALLEN ANGELS. They rebelled against God's Will, and were cast down from Heaven, and in the process of that aspect of divine judgment, were forever and eternally transformed.
Definitely not in any mainstream D&D setting, maybe aside dreaded 4e to some degree. (Not to mention in Christianity essence of demons did not change after fall, merely accidents - as essence is immutable).
QuoteDemons are the ultimate expression of evil, wickedness, and rebellion. There isn't anything "redeemable" in them. The whole fascination with making Demons redeemable and this mushy, misunderstood, angst-filled drama queendom is just more bullshit. I think it ultimately forms bad storytelling, bad logic, and bad theology.
D&D was always very very bad theology and utterly shoddy metaphysics. Greyhawk, FR, Eberron, whatever.
The plottwist is - if you don't want for people to treat outsiders as fancy guys with horns and wings, don't make them fancy guys of horns and wings, but spiritual beings, that you cannot talk with (outside hermetic or theurgic highly symbolic rituals), cannot see as having mortal form and mortal kind of inteligence. And you also cannot hack and slash them because they have no bodies.
It was not Woke crowd who pawed way for such shenanigans - it was Gary freaking Gygax. :P
QuoteOne of the more interesting things Paizo (as bad as they are) did with PF2E was that all demons are inextricably linked with sin -- either one of the classic 'seven deadly' or an offshoot. They're so tangled up with that sin, in fact, that certain actions taken in opposition to it actually cause them damage.
(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)
And still they added two reformed succubi including Nocticula former Queen of Succubi that ascended to be CN goddess, and one immortal sorceress who was succubi in all but name basically and creature type. So they also have their own... thing. Funny it's always sexy succubi never glabrezu.
QuoteVery Faustian of them.
7 Deadly sins
7 Levels of hell
Demons of the level are tied to the sin.
Makes absolute sense to me.
Nah remember it's D&D - Hell has circles. Demons are from Abyss and hates hell-folk for being too rigid.
Abyss is chaos of sinful rifts without any hierarchy.
QuoteIronically enough, the best AP they've put out in nearly 10 year (in my opinion) was one that their most work crowd HATED and still rallies against to this day is one where the party are a bunch of town guards operating to protect the city/world. It was VERY well made and struck a good balance but it was released around the time that police brutality protests were happening across the nations so it became a target as if it were an adventure advocating for Blue Lives Matter or some shit.
Yeah this was ridiculous especially since adventure was clearly planned and designed before whole shitstorm, and ACAB was not nearly as common battlecry of left before Mr. Florida accident.
QuoteThe idea that I and I think a few other people on this thread are upset about is making a roleplaying game where you take everything about demons and leave it the same and then just flip their alignment from evil to good, for no discernable reason other than to be edgy and cool.
Well if you want to flip alignment you need to flip behaviour at least. So it's very much not the same.
QuoteWhether they are all good or only some of them are good isn't the point. Demons aren't good. They have virtually always been evil incarnate. That's the point, and making good demons serves no purpose other than to virtue signal how hip they are to current social justice philosophy. It removes the heroic good vs evil mythic quality of the game and replaces it with moral relativism instead.
No it's not. Alignment is still there informed by actions.
So still good heroes need to defeat some evil. Just because you cannot discern what's evil or good by character type itself, well that's not moral relativism. That's you know common experience of being human and meeting other humans. And as outsiders were by 50 years of D&D shown as humanoid hp bags you can hack and slash, talk with, negotiate, and even breed planetouched spawn with - then after 50 years perspective change.
If you want your demons and angels to not be seen as some dudes in your game, make very sure they are not some dudes.
QuoteI much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.
I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.
Agree. But then I'm always fantasy language over our own kinda guy.
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 20, 2021, 08:08:01 AM
QuoteLet me put it this way, a Demon can't be Good, it might do a good deed to further it's plans but it and it's plans are Evil.
The moment a Demon stops being Evil it also stops being a Demon.
The same is true in the reverse for Angels.
If you go against this then that's moral relativism and it's just a grey mush.
There's well written and even fun grey mush moral relativism out there. Doesn't stop being grey mush moral relativism tho.
No Geeky, not necessarily. Moral relativism starts where the same action we treat as good or evil, depending on some subjective perspective things.
However on ontological grounds... that depends on specific cosmological model to follow, I remember from 3.0/3.5 era fallen celestials and ascended fiends, which nevertheless kept much of their form. Let's remember that in classic D&D as much as Good and Evil (and Law and Chaos) are in conflict, they are nothing like in real life cosmologies and religions, because by all accounts all four are equal (and that's big moral relativism compared to real world concepts), and reality is basically estabilished by their mutual relations (not to mention good and evil beings are clearly able to spend time on their respective planes while various shenanigans are happening. So it all depends. Not gonna lie I consider D&D metaphysics hot radioactive mess, so for me it's all fair game.
If you take cosmological model from Catholicism for instance then angels and demons are literally the same type of outsider, there is no movement between those fractions at all, but also not fancy transformations - fallen angels are fallen because they choose to rebel, that did not made them not angels (because you cannot change your basic ontological nature).
When murder stop being Evil act in D&D then sure accussations of moral relativism will be justified. If some ice devil can turn chaotic, and be like transformed in glabrezu by process, that's whatever.
QuoteWhy then can a Demon be Good or an Angel Evil? Fallen Angles have a name = Demons, likewise redeemed/good Demons have a name = Angels.
Anything else IS Moral Relativism.
In Catholicism. In fancy quasi-medieval pagan world of Greyhawk?
Like you know devil and demon in Christianity is the same shit, genies in islam are basically on ontological level of Celtic fey, archonts are taken straight out of gnosticism, and don't even start talking about agathions/guardinals :P And if we talk about pagan equivalencies then Angel means messenger (4E went with this trope as they realised the division between angels and archons is kinda pointless in D&D so they turned angels to divine herolds of gods - with alignment fitting deity they serve, while archonts kept being LG celestial independent nation) and Daemon means like any kind of spirit - in Pathfinder you have NE daemons and NG agathions but both are derived from Greek daemons - and if mythological root had been kept we would talk about kakadaemons for NE and agathiodaemons for NG.
QuoteI agree. I thought the novel was handled well, especially because it was directly parodying The Omen, which was a very wrong-headed take on Christian theology IMO. There is still clear right and wrong in Good Omens - it's just that the angels aren't on the side of right. That makes it an explicitly humanist rejection of the theology of The Omen - but its humanism still has an absolute moral compass. In Good Omens, killing Damien as a toddler would be wrong, because he still has a chance at redemption.
Well that depends on what Damien was. Remember in "Omen" they discovered it was spawn of Devil and ... rotweiller, so it's ontological status and chances of redemption become way more murky. Not to mention being not born from human cannot be human in Christian ontology.
So from my perspective as Catholic shanking Damian, the human-looking puppy is well possible to justify (because he is a dog dammit), but same vision that Devil can fuck a dog and make human-looking spawn of this, and he can just casualy murder everyone around given spawn in Final Destination way... that's somehow heretical :P
QuoteTheir cosmology was especially worst. Just disrespectful to real designers.
It's definitely more interesting than Great Wheel which was claearly designed by someone with massive OCD and too much of free time.
QuoteHowever, as others have rightly mentioned, a Demon that somehow became "redeemed"--would necessitate the creature becoming something entirely different--in essence, returning to their original state of grace and perfection. Demons are, after all, FALLEN ANGELS. They rebelled against God's Will, and were cast down from Heaven, and in the process of that aspect of divine judgment, were forever and eternally transformed.
Definitely not in any mainstream D&D setting, maybe aside dreaded 4e to some degree. (Not to mention in Christianity essence of demons did not change after fall, merely accidents - as essence is immutable).
QuoteDemons are the ultimate expression of evil, wickedness, and rebellion. There isn't anything "redeemable" in them. The whole fascination with making Demons redeemable and this mushy, misunderstood, angst-filled drama queendom is just more bullshit. I think it ultimately forms bad storytelling, bad logic, and bad theology.
D&D was always very very bad theology and utterly shoddy metaphysics. Greyhawk, FR, Eberron, whatever.
The plottwist is - if you don't want for people to treat outsiders as fancy guys with horns and wings, don't make them fancy guys of horns and wings, but spiritual beings, that you cannot talk with (outside hermetic or theurgic highly symbolic rituals), cannot see as having mortal form and mortal kind of inteligence. And you also cannot hack and slash them because they have no bodies.
It was not Woke crowd who pawed way for such shenanigans - it was Gary freaking Gygax. :P
QuoteOne of the more interesting things Paizo (as bad as they are) did with PF2E was that all demons are inextricably linked with sin -- either one of the classic 'seven deadly' or an offshoot. They're so tangled up with that sin, in fact, that certain actions taken in opposition to it actually cause them damage.
(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)
And still they added two reformed succubi including Nocticula former Queen of Succubi that ascended to be CN goddess, and one immortal sorceress who was succubi in all but name basically and creature type. So they also have their own... thing. Funny it's always sexy succubi never glabrezu.
QuoteVery Faustian of them.
7 Deadly sins
7 Levels of hell
Demons of the level are tied to the sin.
Makes absolute sense to me.
Nah remember it's D&D - Hell has circles. Demons are from Abyss and hates hell-folk for being too rigid.
Abyss is chaos of sinful rifts without any hierarchy.
QuoteIronically enough, the best AP they've put out in nearly 10 year (in my opinion) was one that their most work crowd HATED and still rallies against to this day is one where the party are a bunch of town guards operating to protect the city/world. It was VERY well made and struck a good balance but it was released around the time that police brutality protests were happening across the nations so it became a target as if it were an adventure advocating for Blue Lives Matter or some shit.
Yeah this was ridiculous especially since adventure was clearly planned and designed before whole shitstorm, and ACAB was not nearly as common battlecry of left before Mr. Florida accident.
QuoteThe idea that I and I think a few other people on this thread are upset about is making a roleplaying game where you take everything about demons and leave it the same and then just flip their alignment from evil to good, for no discernable reason other than to be edgy and cool.
Well if you want to flip alignment you need to flip behaviour at least. So it's very much not the same.
QuoteWhether they are all good or only some of them are good isn't the point. Demons aren't good. They have virtually always been evil incarnate. That's the point, and making good demons serves no purpose other than to virtue signal how hip they are to current social justice philosophy. It removes the heroic good vs evil mythic quality of the game and replaces it with moral relativism instead.
No it's not. Alignment is still there informed by actions.
So still good heroes need to defeat some evil. Just because you cannot discern what's evil or good by character type itself, well that's not moral relativism. That's you know common experience of being human and meeting other humans. And as outsiders were by 50 years of D&D shown as humanoid hp bags you can hack and slash, talk with, negotiate, and even breed planetouched spawn with - then after 50 years perspective change.
If you want your demons and angels to not be seen as some dudes in your game, make very sure they are not some dudes.
QuoteI much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.
I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.
Agree. But then I'm always fantasy language over our own kinda guy.
That's all well and good IF you play it RAW. I don't and never did, In my table/games there's only 2 alignments Good vs Evil. I took Order & Chaos and made it into a characteristic of some Evil creatures.
For example: A Demon that's tied by it's word would be Evil always, but would have the Order trait.
Another example: Treating all Fae monsters (Elves, Goblins, etc.) as Evil like in the original tales, and giving them the Order trait because they had to adhere to their word.
Vampires ARE Evil and get the Order trait because I give them the compulsion to count/order/pick up stuff like in some legends.
When I get to PC races then it becomes possible for some mortals to be Good & have the Chaotic trait. But chaos isn't the same as evil like in earlier D&D, it's just the willingness to bend/break the rules to further your goals. It depends on what rules you bend/break and how far you go which can sometimes give you bad boy points (spiritual taint).
Quote from: DM_Curt on October 05, 2021, 05:38:35 PM
Meh. No.
At my (5e) table, Demons are Evil, with a capital E. Every. Time. They will murder, mutilate, fold, spindle, devour and assault you. They are made of Evil and that's what they do.
Devils too. Although they're more likely to try to sell you a 12yo Camero at 23%APR with a balloon payment at the end.
Quick Quiz!
If you start with an Evil soul, torment it for centuries, allow it an atmosphere where backstabbing, cruelty and Intimidation are the norms for promotion for centuries more, you get a:
1: Demon or Devil. 100% Evil, Kill it on sight. Do we need +2 or Better weapons to hit? Silver or Cold Iron?
2. Same, but we call them Tanarri or Baatzu.
3. Hold on. I got 6 more pages to optimize my Demonkiller Prestige class to fight this.
4. A WotC game designer.
5. Tall dark cutie with horns and rippling abs! A pointed tail that might be prehensile to do...things. Wanna walk up and say Hi? You can roll Persuasion.
Number 2 for me.
QuoteThat's all well and good IF you play it RAW. I don't and never did, In my table/games there's only 2 alignments Good vs Evil. I took Order & Chaos and made it into a characteristic of some Evil creatures.
OK, Geeky, but we're not discussing your homebrew but official D&D, so whatever rules you implied in your non-Raw game are irrelevant, and however you define angels, fey and demons in it, are irrelevant, and therefore so are accussation D&D suddenly changed into moral relativism due to WOKE, when in fact it's Raw morality/alignment system was always weird bullshit and there were always weird exceptions and unique outsiders along it many itterations, with Planeescape being most famous example.
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 20, 2021, 08:08:01 AM
QuoteOne of the more interesting things Paizo (as bad as they are) did with PF2E was that all demons are inextricably linked with sin -- either one of the classic 'seven deadly' or an offshoot. They're so tangled up with that sin, in fact, that certain actions taken in opposition to it actually cause them damage.
(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)
And still they added two reformed succubi including Nocticula former Queen of Succubi that ascended to be CN goddess, and one immortal sorceress who was succubi in all but name basically and creature type. So they also have their own... thing. Funny it's always sexy succubi never glabrezu.
Know your audience.
No one wants to see more pictures of a Glabrezu when there is a possibility of pictures of a Succubi.
Quote from: Shasarak on October 26, 2021, 03:20:24 PM
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 20, 2021, 08:08:01 AM
QuoteOne of the more interesting things Paizo (as bad as they are) did with PF2E was that all demons are inextricably linked with sin -- either one of the classic 'seven deadly' or an offshoot. They're so tangled up with that sin, in fact, that certain actions taken in opposition to it actually cause them damage.
(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)
And still they added two reformed succubi including Nocticula former Queen of Succubi that ascended to be CN goddess, and one immortal sorceress who was succubi in all but name basically and creature type. So they also have their own... thing. Funny it's always sexy succubi never glabrezu.
Know your audience.
No one wants to see more pictures of a Glabrezu when there is a possibility of pictures of a Succubi.
No one? It's the Internet. I'm sure that's
someone's fetish.
Maybe ask around on RPGnet?
Quote from: DM_Curt on October 26, 2021, 05:46:01 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on October 26, 2021, 03:20:24 PM
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 20, 2021, 08:08:01 AM
QuoteOne of the more interesting things Paizo (as bad as they are) did with PF2E was that all demons are inextricably linked with sin -- either one of the classic 'seven deadly' or an offshoot. They're so tangled up with that sin, in fact, that certain actions taken in opposition to it actually cause them damage.
(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)
And still they added two reformed succubi including Nocticula former Queen of Succubi that ascended to be CN goddess, and one immortal sorceress who was succubi in all but name basically and creature type. So they also have their own... thing. Funny it's always sexy succubi never glabrezu.
Know your audience.
No one wants to see more pictures of a Glabrezu when there is a possibility of pictures of a Succubi.
No one? It's the Internet. I'm sure that's someone's fetish.
Maybe ask around on RPGnet?
Strangely not even RPGnet.
Greetings!
Glabrezu Lives Matter! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 20, 2021, 08:08:01 AM
...
D&D was always very very bad theology and utterly shoddy metaphysics. Greyhawk, FR, Eberron, whatever.
The plot twist is - if you don't want for people to treat outsiders as fancy guys with horns and wings, don't make them fancy guys of horns and wings, but spiritual beings, that you cannot talk with (outside hermetic or theurgic highly symbolic rituals), cannot see as having mortal form and mortal kind of inteligence. And you also cannot hack and slash them because they have no bodies.
It was not Woke crowd who paved way for such shenanigans - it was Gary freaking Gygax. :P...
...
... are irrelevant, and therefore so are accusations D&D suddenly changed into moral relativism due to WOKE, when in fact it's Raw morality/alignment system was always weird bullshit and there were always weird exceptions and unique outsiders along it many itterations, with Planeescape being most famous example.
D&D cosmology has always been utter crap.
Garbage in so garbage out.
The wokeoso's just leaned in to what was already there.
QuoteNo one wants to see more pictures of a Glabrezu when there is a possibility of pictures of a Succubi.
Why not? Glabrezu has much more interesting designs, and Succubi - i've seen them from every freaking bilboard around.
QuoteD&D cosmology has always been utter crap.
Garbage in so garbage out.
The wokeoso's just leaned in to what was already there.
And in fact they are quite uncomfortable with alignments, because for all their madness they are post-Christian quasi-religion, so they keep certain schemes in minds.
Then you know even Tolkien sort of get uncomfortable about Orcs and their nature, when he sit down and thought about philosophical side of it.
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 28, 2021, 09:43:39 AM
QuoteNo one wants to see more pictures of a Glabrezu when there is a possibility of pictures of a Succubi.
Why not? Glabrezu has much more interesting designs, and Succubi - i've seen them from every freaking bilboard around.
Boobs.
If you think billboard boobs are good then just wait for the sexy demonic boobs
Yeah, you know what call me a bore, but I do not think that claws instead of nipples. and acidic plutonium mucus makes boobs more appealing.
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 28, 2021, 05:50:47 PM
Yeah, you know what call me a bore, but I do not think that claws instead of nipples. and acidic plutonium mucus makes boobs more appealing.
You, my good sir, are a bore.
Quote from: Shasarak on October 28, 2021, 02:48:44 PM
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 28, 2021, 09:43:39 AM
QuoteNo one wants to see more pictures of a Glabrezu when there is a possibility of pictures of a Succubi.
Why not? Glabrezu has much more interesting designs, and Succubi - i've seen them from every freaking bilboard around.
Boobs.
If you think billboard boobs are good then just wait for the sexy demonic boobs
Greetings!
Yes, that's right, Shasarak! Sexy, Demonic Boobies! *Laughing*
Glabrezu Lives Matter! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK