All this leaves out a few things.  First we need to understand what Gygax means by equals or exceeds the value of the party to be awarded xp on a 1 for 1 basis.  Just before this on the same page, he has an example of a fight where 2 characters DIED so the survivors got 400 xp for the encounter.   His example of DM'ing an adventure, one of the party is DEAD within minutes of the players entering the dungeon (do NOT split the party).  To me, and it seems to Gygax, an equal fight is where half the party is going to die, and one or all irrecoverably.   He also has a example of encumbrance and carrying loot either in the PHB or DMG where two players (a fighter and a MU I think, 4th or 5th level) who enter a troll's lair and scrounge up 50 or more pounds of silver, copper a couple gold and a few other goods worth 800gp.  as they are leaving, the troll comes back.  1st edition, that is going to be a T O U G H fight.   I think if you are awarding treasure a5s Gygax laid out, the challenge to the 1 for 1 gp to xp level is going to be WORTH it.   His tone, IMO was one where you would earn it every time if you came out of that dungeon with loot, and you would do it with wits, player skill, role playing, and knowing when to run the hell away.  It will also create some ramp up on selling lower level magic items at higher levels, but many of the modules for higher level characters seem written at a level where the party needs hirelings, henchmen, and maybe a few followers to make it through the thing, so those low level magic items are likely to be gifts to underlings instead of gold sold xp bags.   And given the 1st edition XP charts, people are going to be selling stuff for xp, and the way it was divided for encounters, they have to to advance.  XP is given MUCH more freely in 5th edition.

    I think gold to xp for 5th is way too much XP.  Hell the first 4-5 levels in D&D now are one session each, and possible to hit 2 levels in the first session.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138915All this leaves out a few things.  First we need to understand what Gygax means by equals or exceeds the value of the party to be awarded xp on a 1 for 1 basis.  Just before this on the same page, he has an example of a fight where 2 characters DIED so the survivors got 400 xp for the encounter.   His example of DM'ing an adventure, one of the party is DEAD within minutes of the players entering the dungeon (do NOT split the party).  To me, and it seems to Gygax, an equal fight is where half the party is going to die, and one or all irrecoverably.   He also has a example of encumbrance and carrying loot either in the PHB or DMG where two players (a fighter and a MU I think, 4th or 5th level) who enter a troll's lair and scrounge up 50 or more pounds of silver, copper a couple gold and a few other goods worth 800gp.  as they are leaving, the troll comes back.  1st edition, that is going to be a T O U G H fight.   I think if you are awarding treasure a5s Gygax laid out, the challenge to the 1 for 1 gp to xp level is going to be WORTH it.   His tone, IMO was one where you would earn it every time if you came out of that dungeon with loot, and you would do it with wits, player skill, role playing, and knowing when to run the hell away.  It will also create some ramp up on selling lower level magic items at higher levels, but many of the modules for higher level characters seem written at a level where the party needs hirelings, henchmen, and maybe a few followers to make it through the thing, so those low level magic items are likely to be gifts to underlings instead of gold sold xp bags.   And given the 1st edition XP charts, people are going to be selling stuff for xp, and the way it was divided for encounters, they have to to advance.  XP is given MUCH more freely in 5th edition.

    I think gold to xp for 5th is way too much XP.  Hell the first 4-5 levels in D&D now are one session each, and possible to hit 2 levels in the first session.

But what do you think of my second level advancement table, the first one is the one used for 3rd edition D&D and its premise is simple. You take the character level your character is currently at, multiply that level by 1000 xp and add it to the previous amount of xp you needed to attain your current level, so you need 1000 xp to attain 2nd level, 2000 xp more to obtain 3rd level and so on. Under this system characters only gain xp for defeating opponents in combat and for whatever else the DM decides.

In my second chart, you need 1000 xp to attain 2nd level and you double that requirement for 3rd level to 2000 xp, double it again for 4th level to 4000 xp and so on. Under this system, you still get xp for combat encounters for the listed amounts in the DMG as determined by the challenge of each creature defeated, buy you also get xp for each gold piece value of treasure collected. Advancement is quick at first, but then it slows down as the requirement for each additional level, while the CR tables are still being used for pure combat encounters where there is no treasure. So to advance quickly in this system, you need ever mounting piles of treasure, it is in your interest to defeat Intelligent creatures that are likely to have treasure over the dumb kind that don't. There is not much value in killing a T-rex because they don't have treasure, just a lot of teeth!

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138921But what do you think of my second level advancement table, the first one is the one used for 3rd edition D&D and its premise is simple. You take the character level your character is currently at, multiply that level by 1000 xp and add it to the previous amount of xp you needed to attain your current level, so you need 1000 xp to attain 2nd level, 2000 xp more to obtain 3rd level and so on. Under this system characters only gain xp for defeating opponents in combat and for whatever else the DM decides.

In my second chart, you need 1000 xp to attain 2nd level and you double that requirement for 3rd level to 2000 xp, double it again for 4th level to 4000 xp and so on. Under this system, you still get xp for combat encounters for the listed amounts in the DMG as determined by the challenge of each creature defeated, buy you also get xp for each gold piece value of treasure collected. Advancement is quick at first, but then it slows down as the requirement for each additional level, while the CR tables are still being used for pure combat encounters where there is no treasure. So to advance quickly in this system, you need ever mounting piles of treasure, it is in your interest to defeat Intelligent creatures that are likely to have treasure over the dumb kind that don't. There is not much value in killing a T-rex because they don't have treasure, just a lot of teeth!

    I think it can work, and IMO if you like it roll with it.  I like an idea I saw for this guy's campaign https://dungeonfantastic.blogspot.com/p/my-df-campaign.html   where though it is GURPS and advancement is different ( a little all the time, versus level jumps) he awards zero experience to a session if the session awarded no profit.   No matter how hard fought, or what you achieved.  To me that is pretty rough, but his players agreed to it.  I think a sliding scale on all XP based on profits earned could be interesting.   When it comes to XP, I think many DM's have a "sweet spot" they and the players seem to have the most fun at with.    So to me, XP is pretty subjective, I think SW now uses a GM fiat to bump players xp level (has a progression similar to GURPS) and even D&D has left it to the DM's discretion.  I think whatever you and your players agree to and enjoy the most is what is best.  Sometimes I think it takes experimenting to see what you and they like the most.  I am pretty good with any.  I just thought the Gygax way  was there for a reason, if you got gold at a 1 for 1 xp award, you likely lost friends and left that adventure with some trauma.

In my 1e game I keep the standard XP tables and XP awards for gold finds over 100gp, but I give monster XP as follows - monster XP is increased for PCs level 1-8, then at roughly the BX book rate for PC level 9+. Very high level characters are usually more interested in ruling their domains and in acquiring more wealth than in killing yet more monsters.

Hit Dice: PC Level 1-8 - PC Level 9+
1/2 hd: 50 - 5
1-1 hd: 75 - 7
1 hd: 100  - 10
1+1 hd: 150 - 15
2 hd: 200 - 20
2+1 hd: 250 - 25
3 hd: 300 - 35
3+1 hd: 350 - 50
4 hd: 400 - 75
4+1 hd: 500 - 125
5 hd: 600 - 175
5+1 hd: 700 - 225
6 hd: 800 - 275
6+1 hd: 1000 - 350
7 hd: 1200 - 450
7+1 hd: 1400 - 550
8 hd: 1600 - 650
8+1 hd: 2000 - 750
9 hd: 2400 - 900
9+1 hd: 2800 - 950
10 hd: 3200 - 1000
10+1 hd: 3600 - 1050
11 hd: 4000 - 1100
11+1 hd: 4500 - 1150
12 hd: 5000 - 1200
12+1 hd: 5500 - 1250
13 hd: 6000 - 1350
13+1 hd: 6500 - 1400
14 hd: 7000 - 1450
15 hd: 8000 - 1500
16 hd: 9000 - 1700
17 hd: 10000 - 2000
18 hd: 11000 - 2100
19 hd: 12000 - 2200
20 hd: 13000 - 2300
21 hd:  14000 - 2500
+1 HD: +1000 - +200

Running PBP, after about 11 months of play the veteran PCs are 4th level.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1138864Of course you can, and that's the strength of the goal system. as Ratman_tf points out. But using XP for Gold, you can't really circle back to other types of goals. XP for Gold is just XP for Gold. But XP for Goals is also XP for Gold and XP for every objective that isn't gold.

However, to get nitpicky, I prefer XP for Achievements myself. Because XP for Achievements includes XP for Gold (or at least the task of finding it, if that's the objective), XP for Goals/Objectives and XP for Overcoming Obstacles or any other type of accomplishment that comes up during play that characters did, but aren't necessarily a "goal". So XP for Achievements > XP for Goals > XP for Gold.

Yes so, in summary, I get XP for Gold, I get XP for having the Goal of getting the Gold and I get XP for the Achievement of getting the Gold.

I like it!

Quote from: oggsmash;1138929I think it can work, and IMO if you like it roll with it.  I like an idea I saw for this guy's campaign https://dungeonfantastic.blogspot.com/p/my-df-campaign.html   where though it is GURPS and advancement is different ( a little all the time, versus level jumps) he awards zero experience to a session if the session awarded no profit.   No matter how hard fought, or what you achieved.  To me that is pretty rough, but his players agreed to it.  I think a sliding scale on all XP based on profits earned could be interesting.   When it comes to XP, I think many DM's have a "sweet spot" they and the players seem to have the most fun at with.    So to me, XP is pretty subjective, I think SW now uses a GM fiat to bump players xp level (has a progression similar to GURPS) and even D&D has left it to the DM's discretion.  I think whatever you and your players agree to and enjoy the most is what is best.  Sometimes I think it takes experimenting to see what you and they like the most.  I am pretty good with any.  I just thought the Gygax way  was there for a reason, if you got gold at a 1 for 1 xp award, you likely lost friends and left that adventure with some trauma.

Murder hobos weren't so much a problem for the early editions, you focused then on gaining treasure and killing things was just on the way to gaining that treasure, now a murder hobo sits on the street looking for things that move so he can kill them and gain experience points for them.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138986Murder hobos weren't so much a problem for the early editions, you focused then on gaining treasure and killing things was just on the way to gaining that treasure, now a murder hobo sits on the street looking for things that move so he can kill them and gain experience points for them.

 I agree, Gygax actively encouraged players to get in and get out with as little conflict as possible, with long rests, slow natural healing, and wondering monster tables that could go from 0 to 60 in a heart beat.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138988wondering monster

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1138991

LOL  oops.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138915First we need to understand what Gygax means by equals or exceeds the value of the party to be awarded xp on a 1 for 1 basis.  Just before this on the same page, he has an example of a fight where 2 characters DIED so the survivors got 400 xp for the encounter.

If you are going to refer to a quote, at least tell us what you are quoting.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1138993If you are going to refer to a quote, at least tell us what you are quoting.

  Page 85 1st edition DMG.
   I think the tone through out in examples in the book and the PHB (can not remember where the troll encounter was) that a 1 for 1 gold to xp ratio was not so straightforward.  But the DMG is sort of full of things like that, where he says to use your judgement, but then shows his judgement to be.....harsh.  My bad.

Quote from: Shasarak;1138983Yes so, in summary, I get XP for Gold, I get XP for having the Goal of getting the Gold and I get XP for the Achievement of getting the Gold.

I like it!

And XP for any significant non-combat non-gold related thing you did while getting the gold.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138986Murder hobos weren't so much a problem for the early editions, you focused then on gaining treasure and killing things was just on the way to gaining that treasure, now a murder hobo sits on the street looking for things that move so he can kill them and gain experience points for them.

I often see this sort of claim made, but that was not exactly my experience from being introduced into the hobby by a group of munchkins who only played Basic D&D (and also Robotech and RIFTS, but that came after). My campaigns were the first somewhat RP focused campaigns that went beyond killing things and taking their stuff in my old circle, and I played 2e (also the first from that circle to step beyond Basic).

Gaining gold for XP in OD&D was genius, especially when you combine the concept with wandering monsters. The game instantly evolves from just having "encounter after encounter" to tactical and strategic thinking about how to steal the most treasure by using the least resources.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1139068Gaining gold for XP in OD&D was genius, especially when you combine the concept with wandering monsters. The game instantly evolves from just having "encounter after encounter" to tactical and strategic thinking about how to steal the most treasure by using the least resources.

Yep. The platonic ideal dungeon sortie of OD&D is entering the dungeon, robbing everyone blind, and exiting it, without having a single round of combat.

Quote from: Luca;1139080Yep. The platonic ideal dungeon sortie of OD&D is entering the dungeon, robbing everyone blind, and exiting it, without having a single round of combat.

The dungeon consists of one room with one million gold pieces in it, but to get that, you have to get past the goblin guarding the treasure, he is armed with a dagger and a sling shot, once you deal with that threat, somewhere buried amongst the pile of gold pieces is a mouse trap which inflicts 1 hit point of damage if sprung. To disable this trap a Rogue needs to make a DC check of 11 or higher, otherwise he springs the trap and needs to make a reflex save to avoid taking 1 hit point of damage.