Almost sounds like I'm designing a new feat of special ability, but yeah... I seemed to be much further ahead years ago. Regardless of politics and culture war stuff (Pundit seems to still be doing very well), I assumed that my Kickstarters, DriveThru sales, YouTube views, hardcover books sold, convention recognition, and just everything would continue to tick up, slowly but surely. Even 3 steps forward, 2 steps back would be better where I am now.
I'm extremely proud of what I've created (and helped create what with commissioning artwork, getting gaming friends involved with manifesting their own Vengerized gaming material, such as Cha'alt), over these last few years especially. My designs and discoveries in the hobby over the last 5 years have really soared, and some of it (like Crimson Escalation) I give away for free! I'm excited about the friends I've made, the convention games I've GMed, and the Cha'alt campaigns I've run. And I'm even making my own hand-drawn maps that are just as good if not better than what I was paying an award-winning layout guy to create for me years ago.
But in terms of attention, impact, money, and influence, it does seem like I'm going in the opposite direction. No idea if this is some natural occurrence, the Empire Strikes Back of an epic comeback, or the universe leveling things out.
Regardless, I just had my first ever failed Kickstarter last month, and started a new one that I hoped would be better received than a digital comic based on my home campaign setting of Cha'alt. Here's my guide to gonzo that includes a Cha'alt adventure (based on an X poll, those 2 got the most votes), and if we're lucky, a truncated Lavender Moons comic, after all.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/vengersatanis/primordial-chaos-gonzo-like-a-fucking-boss/
However, this post is really about the entirety of my RPG "career" in the industry. Yes, my stuff is more niche than someone like Pundit doing authentic medieval fare, but still... if you look at the online marketplace, a lot of niche stuff seems to be making bank, bro.
Ok, 3 parts interesting topic, 1 part venting, 2 parts rant, and 1 part shameless self-promotion complete. How many parts is that? I don't know. I'm a sorcerer, not a mathematician. Thanks for reading, hoss!
VS
At least economically, things are pretty crappy right now. I don't what your sales are like overseas but here in the US the cost of living has soared to great levels of suck thanks to Bidenomics. My personal gaming budget has slowed to a tiny trickle. The other not economic factor that could be in play is Kickstarter fatigue. I got to the point before the economy turned to crap, that I already have more gaming material that will probably be able to enjoy playing before I die.
Hey Venger! This is DMNick, formally of the Roll For Initiative podcast. Just want to let you know that I've purchased all of the Cha'alt material and I'm going to incorporate it into my Land of a Thousand Towers campaign. It's a mix of...
-Anomalous Subsurface Environment
-Operation Unfathomable
-a few other crazy stuff
- and now Cha'alt!
Think of it like Thundar the Barbarian cassarole, with a Heavy Metal mag and the classic movie filling, a sprinkle of the animated series Primal, and topped off with a layer of Korgoth of Barbaria.
You might even say it's GONZO!
BTW, I'd love to get the Cha'alt material in print. Any way of that happening? I'm willing to give my second born.
Venger, I have several of your books and I like them but I have a few criticisms I think bear on the topic at hand. I like your stuff and would like to see you succeed
Your content, Cha'alt et al, has a lot of cool ideas and I love to borrow from your stuff for my own games but it doesn't feel like a full setting. Instead it feels like a grab bag of pieces that don't quite fit and don't quite make a complete picture. I do recommend your books when someone wants to flesh out stuff like Ultraviolet Grasslands, Barbarians of Ruined Earth, or Yoon-Suin.
I've mentioned to you in the past but I run a tight game at the table. I do my level best to account for as many possible player choices as I can before running a session and I get to know my setting, my NPCs, and the rules so I can adjust to things my players do I didn't anticipate. When I use your products, it's clear that the GM is expected to improv and stitch it back in. For me, that just means I have to do a lot more work in prep to run a good session. I'm not good at improv so I minimize it and focus on my strengths as a GM. This means I'm less likely to use your books, less likely to buy more books because I don't use them as much, and I'm less likely to have them out to share and recommend them. (BTW, I have .pdfs and print out pages I'm using for a lot of "books" I use. Just my style of GM organizing.)
The other thing I see is that you seem to be trying to do everything. You're a game designer, a publisher, a comic artist, and so on. Good on you, if it's all working but if it's not I hope you can focus on your successes and focus on what matters.
Whether or not any of this is useful to you, I hope things get better for you.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 15, 2024, 02:55:58 PMAt least economically, things are pretty crappy right now. I don't what your sales are like overseas but here in the US the cost of living has soared to great levels of suck thanks to Bidenomics. My personal gaming budget has slowed to a tiny trickle. The other not economic factor that could be in play is Kickstarter fatigue. I got to the point before the economy turned to crap, that I already have more gaming material that will probably be able to enjoy playing before I die.
Yes, I'm in the USA. It's true, the economy seems like we're in a recession right now. And if it wasn't for billion dollar crowdfunding campaigns for "exotic" sets of dice and mid-OSR products like ShadowDark, I'd say fair enough. But some people are making bank hand over fist in certain segments of the hobby.
Thanks for the comment!
Quote from: blackstone on August 15, 2024, 03:24:36 PMHey Venger! This is DMNick, formally of the Roll For Initiative podcast. Just want to let you know that I've purchased all of the Cha'alt material and I'm going to incorporate it into my Land of a Thousand Towers campaign. It's a mix of...
-Anomalous Subsurface Environment
-Operation Unfathomable
-a few other crazy stuff
- and now Cha'alt!
Think of it like Thundar the Barbarian cassarole, with a Heavy Metal mag and the classic movie filling, a sprinkle of the animated series Primal, and topped off with a layer of Korgoth of Barbaria.
You might even say it's GONZO!
BTW, I'd love to get the Cha'alt material in print. Any way of that happening? I'm willing to give my second born.
That's awesome! I hope to read of your gonzo adventures, and if you have a question or simply want to tell me about your campaign (normally, that's where gamers die a little inside standing around listening to someone go on and on about a campaign you're not at all apart of), I would sincerely love to hear about it.
If you mean the 3 Cha'alt hardcover books, that's the top-tier backer reward on the new PRIMORDIAL CHAOS Kickstarter. If you're talking about compiling all the PDFs into a hardcover, I'd like to offer that down the road, but just can't do it while I'm in a sales slump.
Quote from: BadApple on August 15, 2024, 07:55:19 PMVenger, I have several of your books and I like them but I have a few criticisms I think bear on the topic at hand. I like your stuff and would like to see you succeed
Your content, Cha'alt et al, has a lot of cool ideas and I love to borrow from your stuff for my own games but it doesn't feel like a full setting. Instead it feels like a grab bag of pieces that don't quite fit and don't quite make a complete picture. I do recommend your books when someone wants to flesh out stuff like Ultraviolet Grasslands, Barbarians of Ruined Earth, or Yoon-Suin.
I've mentioned to you in the past but I run a tight game at the table. I do my level best to account for as many possible player choices as I can before running a session and I get to know my setting, my NPCs, and the rules so I can adjust to things my players do I didn't anticipate. When I use your products, it's clear that the GM is expected to improv and stitch it back in. For me, that just means I have to do a lot more work in prep to run a good session. I'm not good at improv so I minimize it and focus on my strengths as a GM. This means I'm less likely to use your books, less likely to buy more books because I don't use them as much, and I'm less likely to have them out to share and recommend them. (BTW, I have .pdfs and print out pages I'm using for a lot of "books" I use. Just my style of GM organizing.)
The other thing I see is that you seem to be trying to do everything. You're a game designer, a publisher, a comic artist, and so on. Good on you, if it's all working but if it's not I hope you can focus on your successes and focus on what matters.
Whether or not any of this is useful to you, I hope things get better for you.
Yeah, I think the "loose" nature of my stuff (campaign setting, but probably also adventures) is a valid criticism. If I could alter my brain somehow to write in a "tighter" way, I don't know that I'd want to, but I totally get it. Regardless, I'm sure there's still some tightening-up I could do in the writing as a compromise... without losing that "anything can happen" vibe, which I feel is instrumental to my own gaming style.
The digital-comic thing may be a bridge too far, as in stretching myself too thin, as you mentioned. I don't do any of the artwork, just the writing, but it is a different medium of conveying campaign setting material, and that's fine if it's just not going to enthuse an audience enough to happen. The self-publishing thing is just a way for me to put out my own stuff, so I don't have to rely on someone else. Though, it would be great to simply hand over my stuff to a guy who does all the packaging and selling for me.
Whatever happens, I will focus on my successes and what's most important. Make the main thing the main thing. My own personal gaming has never been better. I try to keep that awesomeness in perspective. Thanks for the patronage, feedback, and reply, hoss!
Its reasonable that social and technological circumstances (material conditions ;-) exert pressures on the hobby.
Online streaming made the hobby more popular, but drifted expectations and playstyles and expanded the influence of non-participants (just people who watch)
VTTs certainly could reduce homebrewing - it's much harder to figure out how to code things on a VTT then in your pen and paper notebook. They definitely discourage elegance in game design - elegant design is hard to do, but now if you have enough $ you can paper over your-non elegant game by saying "just run it in a VTT". They also certainly would encourage running pre-published materials instead of your own.
Not sure what to tell you, but I can say that while I've been pretty successful in all of my products, my "authentic medieval" stuff (and Star Adventurer, which is straight sci-fi) have done better than my Gonzo products (or my Occult-Modern Invisible College). Some genres are more popular than others.
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 18, 2024, 09:55:31 PMSome genres are more popular than others.
While this is absolutely true, you have to decide where the balance will fall on writing what you love and writing what will bring in the money. If you can do both, then you're in the golden zone, but often you have to "sell out" to some degree and then you risk being taken as a poseur in the more popular genre and combined with the increased volume of competition in those popular generes...
So, are these gaming products your primary source of income (your "day job") or is it a hobby that brings in supplemental income (you "side gig")? If it's the latter, then I'd suggest sticking to writing what you enjoy. If it's the former, then you have some tough decisions to make, and I don't envy you on that.
I myself only make a few hundred dollars every month or two from my gaming industry side gig (I do proofreading) That, along with complimentary products, is still just a drop in my money bucket. Because of this, I only work on products that I want to work on, and that makes it feel much less like work than it otherwise might.
If you take that route, make sure the primary source of income is something that will sustain you and yours without crushing your spirit. Then, dabble away at writing in your own niche.
Well, in my case, it is my primary source of income, and I do quite well. Well enough that I can make products that interest me even if I know that due to genre they won't make quite as much as some of my other products. Though fortunately, the genre I like to write best (and am best at because of my educational background) are the genre that also sells best.
Mind you, I've never tried doing something that was the more standard fantasy.
I'm not an industry guy so all I can provide is my one data point and that is what I do and don't buy. I'm not into heavy gonzo. I don't buy comic books. The only product of yours I've actually purchased is Revelry in Torth. More please. That product captures everything I want in Sword & Sorcery, and the art is perfect. You "get" that particular genre better than most who write for it. If you wrote short, tightly-focused OSR adventures that could be dropped into other Sword & Sorcery settings, I'd buy them all.
I really liked one of the older versions of Crimson Dragon Slayer. I believe it was labeled as D20 Revised. It was a very nice rules-light game, and as I'm getting older I'm tending to prefer lighter games. It was fairly generic in its rules (which is good!), but had a dash of gonzo to set it apart a bit from the crowd. And I thought that was fine.
But later versions of Crimson Dragon Slayer turned me off. When a Sleaze Factor rule was introduced, I became less interested in the game. I play with a group of old fat guys, so I don't want sex rules as part of my game. :) And I've been on the lookout for a nice, simple, light game to teach to people who have never played tabletop RPGs before, and CDS comes close to what I'm looking for, but the sex stuff disqualifies it. I was rather surprised when you introduced the Crimson Dragon Slayer Micro version of the game, which shrunk the game even further in page count, yet you still found room in the very limited page space to fit in sex rules. :D
I'm definitely not telling you how to write your games. If you think sleaze rules should be in a game with an already limited page count, you do you. I'm just saying why I, as a consumer, would not spend money on it. And while Crimson Dragon Slayer is free, this carries over to your other products as well. I came very close to purchasing your Cha'alt books several times, when you had really good sales on them, but the ick factor for me (and for the fat guys at my gaming table, and for the newbies I might introduce to RPGS) prevented me from pulling the trigger on your products. I know the sleaze is part of your brand :) but I'm sure you know it also limits your brand.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 20, 2024, 12:25:59 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on August 18, 2024, 09:55:31 PMSome genres are more popular than others.
While this is absolutely true, you have to decide where the balance will fall on writing what you love and writing what will bring in the money. If you can do both, then you're in the golden zone, but often you have to "sell out" to some degree and then you risk being taken as a poseur in the more popular genre and combined with the increased volume of competition in those popular generes...
So, are these gaming products your primary source of income (your "day job") or is it a hobby that brings in supplemental income (you "side gig")? If it's the latter, then I'd suggest sticking to writing what you enjoy. If it's the former, then you have some tough decisions to make, and I don't envy you on that.
I myself only make a few hundred dollars every month or two from my gaming industry side gig (I do proofreading) That, along with complimentary products, is still just a drop in my money bucket. Because of this, I only work on products that I want to work on, and that makes it feel much less like work than it otherwise might.
If you take that route, make sure the primary source of income is something that will sustain you and yours without crushing your spirit. Then, dabble away at writing in your own niche.
The RPG stuff has always been a side gig, which allowed me to write what I wanted. However, it's taken so much time and effort that the RPG hustle is preventing me from going after more lucrative side gigs.
Quote from: Vidgrip on August 20, 2024, 07:35:56 PMI'm not an industry guy so all I can provide is my one data point and that is what I do and don't buy. I'm not into heavy gonzo. I don't buy comic books. The only product of yours I've actually purchased is Revelry in Torth. More please. That product captures everything I want in Sword & Sorcery, and the art is perfect. You "get" that particular genre better than most who write for it. If you wrote short, tightly-focused OSR adventures that could be dropped into other Sword & Sorcery settings, I'd buy them all.
I'm sure you're not alone. While I do like that niche, it's not where my heart is... and I would think that particular sub-genre is oversaturated by this point. Although, I could be wrong. What's even popular right now? Grimdark, epic fantasy, serial numbers filed-off Hogwarts, gay barista tea and crumpets?
BTW,
Liberation of the Demon Slayer is much like
Revelry in Torth.
The Islands of Purple-Haunted Putrescence is a kind of hybrid of those earlier works and the super-gonzo Cha'alt stuff. And there were some later efforts that you might like, though not as awesome as the earlier and later stuff, in my opinion. Such as
Stairway of V'dreen.
Quote from: Crusader X on August 20, 2024, 11:34:56 PMI really liked one of the older versions of Crimson Dragon Slayer. I believe it was labeled as D20 Revised. It was a very nice rules-light game, and as I'm getting older I'm tending to prefer lighter games. It was fairly generic in its rules (which is good!), but had a dash of gonzo to set it apart a bit from the crowd. And I thought that was fine.
But later versions of Crimson Dragon Slayer turned me off. When a Sleaze Factor rule was introduced, I became less interested in the game. I play with a group of old fat guys, so I don't want sex rules as part of my game. :) And I've been on the lookout for a nice, simple, light game to teach to people who have never played tabletop RPGs before, and CDS comes close to what I'm looking for, but the sex stuff disqualifies it. I was rather surprised when you introduced the Crimson Dragon Slayer Micro version of the game, which shrunk the game even further in page count, yet you still found room in the very limited page space to fit in sex rules. :D
I'm definitely not telling you how to write your games. If you think sleaze rules should be in a game with an already limited page count, you do you. I'm just saying why I, as a consumer, would not spend money on it. And while Crimson Dragon Slayer is free, this carries over to your other products as well. I came very close to purchasing your Cha'alt books several times, when you had really good sales on them, but the ick factor for me (and for the fat guys at my gaming table, and for the newbies I might introduce to RPGS) prevented me from pulling the trigger on your products. I know the sleaze is part of your brand :) but I'm sure you know it also limits your brand.
Yeah, I don't play with strippers or any women at all. It's pretty much middle-aged guys and a millennial dude or two. So, I assure you we use our imagination - and pictures of hotties found on the internet - when sex comes up in our sessions. It's really the same as imagining killing orcs, instead of the players believing they're attacking me behind the screen.
If I wasn't the only one (maybe there's another RPG or two out there somewhere) including rules and mechanical bonuses for sex and sleaze, I might relent. But there's got to be hundreds of OSR rules-light systems out there that don't have that stuff. Even if it wasn't my jam, which it is, I'd want to be in that .01% of RPGs.
This thread and other discussions I've had on social media, both public and private, have led me to the road I now walk... or slither.
Kort'thalis Publishing is closing its gates. I'll still be around and gaming, but the business side of things is going away. Details and context here: https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2024/08/end-of-aeon.html
Quote from: VengerSatanis on August 23, 2024, 11:39:32 AMQuote from: Vidgrip on August 20, 2024, 07:35:56 PMI'm not an industry guy so all I can provide is my one data point and that is what I do and don't buy. I'm not into heavy gonzo. I don't buy comic books. The only product of yours I've actually purchased is Revelry in Torth. More please. That product captures everything I want in Sword & Sorcery, and the art is perfect. You "get" that particular genre better than most who write for it. If you wrote short, tightly-focused OSR adventures that could be dropped into other Sword & Sorcery settings, I'd buy them all.
I'm sure you're not alone. ...Such as Stairway of V'dreen.
I can assure Vidgrip he isn't alone; I've thought the same at times. I have bought a couple Cha'alt products though, but not of late as I'm not running nor in a game they fit in.
Will have to check into Stairway of V'dreen though.
And yes Kickstarter fatigue is definitely real and affects videogames as well. Things fund much slower than they did; if they even do from what I've seen.
That's a crying shame. I think there's been a sudden shift in the zeitgeist of the OSR.
Quote from: WERDNA on August 23, 2024, 01:01:31 PMQuote from: VengerSatanis on August 23, 2024, 11:39:32 AMQuote from: Vidgrip on August 20, 2024, 07:35:56 PMI'm not an industry guy so all I can provide is my one data point and that is what I do and don't buy. I'm not into heavy gonzo. I don't buy comic books. The only product of yours I've actually purchased is Revelry in Torth. More please. That product captures everything I want in Sword & Sorcery, and the art is perfect. You "get" that particular genre better than most who write for it. If you wrote short, tightly-focused OSR adventures that could be dropped into other Sword & Sorcery settings, I'd buy them all.
I'm sure you're not alone. ...Such as Stairway of V'dreen.
I can assure Vidgrip he isn't alone; I've thought the same at times. I have bought a couple Cha'alt products though, but not of late as I'm not running nor in a game they fit in.
Will have to check into Stairway of V'dreen though.
And yes Kickstarter fatigue is definitely real and affects videogames as well. Things fund much slower than they did; if they even do from what I've seen.
If the KS funds were down, but I was doing well on the DriveThru front, that would be a different story, but both down at once... and direct sales on top of that? It's unsustainable.
Quote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:46:27 PMThat's a crying shame. I think there's been a sudden shift in the zeitgeist of the OSR.
That doesn't surprise me. See you on the other side, hoss!
Venger, saddened to read of this news. You're a unique and valuable voice, and I hope you stick around and post your purple putrescence frequently!
Quote from: VengerSatanis on August 23, 2024, 12:01:33 PMThis thread and other discussions I've had on social media, both public and private, have led me to the road I now walk... or slither.
Kort'thalis Publishing is closing its gates. I'll still be around and gaming, but the business side of things is going away. Details and context here: https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2024/08/end-of-aeon.html
I wish you well, and I'm glad that this hasn't soured you on gaming for fun.
Quote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:46:27 PMThat's a crying shame. I think there's been a sudden shift in the zeitgeist of the OSR.
Yeah, the OSR does appear to me to be (for lack of a better phrase) losing its edge. Not just Venger's stuff. I seem to be seeing a less of the weird heavy metal aesthetic that used to be kind of a major subscene in the OSR. Meanwhile, recent successes like Shadowdark are pretty edge-free. Even Pundit's stuff is safe in a way. Historical roleplaying is always its own little niche, and historical authenticity is still an accepted justification for political correctness in most gaming circles. I have no data here, but I've been stewing on this for a couple of days, and a theory is starting to come together.
I think the chief reason for this is a change in who the new people coming into the OSR are. I suspect that as a commercial proposition, the OSR relies heavily on new adherents. It appears to me that people do the lion's share of their purchasing in the first few years after they get interested in the OSR, particularly for more out-there products. Once people have been in it for a while, they tend to drift back towards middle-of-the-road dungeon fantasy and you hear more of the "I have all the books I'll ever need" sentiment. So if you sell weirder products, you need to reach newcomers.
Previously, people coming to the OSR were usually pretty hardcore RPG gamers, as they were the only people who would find it, and they were people dissatisfied not just with the rules of current D&D, but with the tone and play culture. Then the OSR got a notoriety bump due to YouTube and the RPG boom during COVID, and a bunch of new converts after the OGL situation. I think the new audience is more composed of people who might have gotten disillusioned with the D&D rules, or with WOTC as a company, but were perfectly happy with the tone and culture of modern D&D. Add to that the fact that the generation entering prime RPG-buying age right now grew up in a generally edge-less culture, and it could explain why edge-less creators are seeing a lot of success and companies like Necrotic Gnome appear to be moving in that direction.
Again, I have no data here. It's just how things look from my outsider's perspective.
Quote from: Brigman on August 24, 2024, 12:10:01 AMVenger, saddened to read of this news. You're a unique and valuable voice, and I hope you stick around and post your purple putrescence frequently!
Thanks, hoss. I will try!
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 24, 2024, 01:53:20 AMQuote from: VengerSatanis on August 23, 2024, 12:01:33 PMThis thread and other discussions I've had on social media, both public and private, have led me to the road I now walk... or slither.
Kort'thalis Publishing is closing its gates. I'll still be around and gaming, but the business side of things is going away. Details and context here: https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2024/08/end-of-aeon.html
I wish you well, and I'm glad that this hasn't soured you on gaming for fun.
Indeed, I made this move so I didn't become a bitter angry curmudgeon rage-quitting from the hobby altogether. Now, I can focus on the fun of gaming.
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 24, 2024, 09:46:11 AMQuote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:46:27 PMThat's a crying shame. I think there's been a sudden shift in the zeitgeist of the OSR.
Yeah, the OSR does appear to me to be (for lack of a better phrase) losing its edge. Not just Venger's stuff. I seem to be seeing a less of the weird heavy metal aesthetic that used to be kind of a major subscene in the OSR. Meanwhile, recent successes like Shadowdark are pretty edge-free. Even Pundit's stuff is safe in a way. Historical roleplaying is always its own little niche, and historical authenticity is still an accepted justification for political correctness in most gaming circles. I have no data here, but I've been stewing on this for a couple of days, and a theory is starting to come together.
I think the chief reason for this is a change in who the new people coming into the OSR are. I suspect that as a commercial proposition, the OSR relies heavily on new adherents. It appears to me that people do the lion's share of their purchasing in the first few years after they get interested in the OSR, particularly for more out-there products. Once people have been in it for a while, they tend to drift back towards middle-of-the-road dungeon fantasy and you hear more of the "I have all the books I'll ever need" sentiment. So if you sell weirder products, you need to reach newcomers.
Previously, people coming to the OSR were usually pretty hardcore RPG gamers, as they were the only people who would find it, and they were people dissatisfied not just with the rules of current D&D, but with the tone and play culture. Then the OSR got a notoriety bump due to YouTube and the RPG boom during COVID, and a bunch of new converts after the OGL situation. I think the new audience is more composed of people who might have gotten disillusioned with the D&D rules, or with WOTC as a company, but were perfectly happy with the tone and culture of modern D&D. Add to that the fact that the generation entering prime RPG-buying age right now grew up in a generally edge-less culture, and it could explain why edge-less creators are seeing a lot of success and companies like Necrotic Gnome appear to be moving in that direction.
Again, I have no data here. It's just how things look from my outsider's perspective.
Yes, I think that has a lot to do with it. Also, have you seen that statistic, testosterone in men has gone down something like 20% over the last 20 years? Edge is an aspect of masculinity, and with beta-cuck male feminist gamers filling up all the seats, there's not much left for us real men.
And we may as well blame Millennials because... well, fuck them! Lol, mostly kidding.
Might I suggest you hold off on anything permanent. When 6E hits there will probably be a wave of abandoned table top players looking for something beyond Wizards products.
I also think you might consider bundling some of your previous products such as the sword and sorcery stuff like Toth and the Purple Islands or the F'ing boss books. Minimal effort since it's already written.
:(
My sympathies Venger. It is always sad to close the book on a story.
:)
Thank you for the magic you made and shared with the world. May you come back and write a new one.
Greetings!
Venger, I wish you all the best, my friend! I wrote you a message on your primary video announcing this development.
I appreciate everything that you have done, and stood for, Venger. You have been a fearless and strong voice in our hobby!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: VengerSatanis on August 24, 2024, 04:58:20 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on August 24, 2024, 09:46:11 AMQuote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:46:27 PMThat's a crying shame. I think there's been a sudden shift in the zeitgeist of the OSR.
Yeah, the OSR does appear to me to be (for lack of a better phrase) losing its edge. Not just Venger's stuff. I seem to be seeing a less of the weird heavy metal aesthetic that used to be kind of a major subscene in the OSR. Meanwhile, recent successes like Shadowdark are pretty edge-free. Even Pundit's stuff is safe in a way. Historical roleplaying is always its own little niche, and historical authenticity is still an accepted justification for political correctness in most gaming circles. I have no data here, but I've been stewing on this for a couple of days, and a theory is starting to come together.
I think the chief reason for this is a change in who the new people coming into the OSR are. I suspect that as a commercial proposition, the OSR relies heavily on new adherents. It appears to me that people do the lion's share of their purchasing in the first few years after they get interested in the OSR, particularly for more out-there products. Once people have been in it for a while, they tend to drift back towards middle-of-the-road dungeon fantasy and you hear more of the "I have all the books I'll ever need" sentiment. So if you sell weirder products, you need to reach newcomers.
Previously, people coming to the OSR were usually pretty hardcore RPG gamers, as they were the only people who would find it, and they were people dissatisfied not just with the rules of current D&D, but with the tone and play culture. Then the OSR got a notoriety bump due to YouTube and the RPG boom during COVID, and a bunch of new converts after the OGL situation. I think the new audience is more composed of people who might have gotten disillusioned with the D&D rules, or with WOTC as a company, but were perfectly happy with the tone and culture of modern D&D. Add to that the fact that the generation entering prime RPG-buying age right now grew up in a generally edge-less culture, and it could explain why edge-less creators are seeing a lot of success and companies like Necrotic Gnome appear to be moving in that direction.
Again, I have no data here. It's just how things look from my outsider's perspective.
Yes, I think that has a lot to do with it. Also, have you seen that statistic, testosterone in men has gone down something like 20% over the last 20 years? Edge is an aspect of masculinity, and with beta-cuck male feminist gamers filling up all the seats, there's not much left for us real men.
And we may as well blame Millennials because... well, fuck them! Lol, mostly kidding.
There's way more based milennials out there than you old-timers tend to think. We were the primary consumers and creators of the 2000s 4-chan era of edgy internet humor after all. I don't think those intrusive thoughts ever went away, but we're also acutely aware of the social controls in place these days and the potential costs of anyone finding out what's actually going on behind our eyes. IME dissident-minded millennials are extremely careful about letting our thoughtcrimes show. That poses problems for an inherently public activity like tabletop gaming.
Also, I don't think many of the dissident millennials are in the RPG space. One thing you can fairly blame my generation for is the shift in RPGs from being a thing for stoners, heavy metal kids and army vets, to being a thing for theater kids and bloggers. The former group seems to have exclusively gone over to videogames. That's for a lot of reasons, but the changing tone of the RPG space might be one of them.
If I had to guess, the drop in average testosterone levels is probably mostly due to a general decline in public health. If memory serves, T-levels in men are strongly correlated with a bunch of nutritional and body-composition metrics.
Quote from: Ruprecht on August 24, 2024, 09:39:58 PMMight I suggest you hold off on anything permanent. When 6E hits there will probably be a wave of abandoned table top players looking for something beyond Wizards products.
I also think you might consider bundling some of your previous products such as the sword and sorcery stuff like Toth and the Purple Islands or the F'ing boss books. Minimal effort since it's already written.
Quote from: Opaopajr on August 25, 2024, 12:43:47 AM:(
My sympathies Venger. It is always sad to close the book on a story.
:)
Thank you for the magic you made and shared with the world. May you come back and write a new one.
Quote from: SHARK on August 25, 2024, 05:35:28 AMGreetings!
Venger, I wish you all the best, my friend! I wrote you a message on your primary video announcing this development.
I appreciate everything that you have done, and stood for, Venger. You have been a fearless and strong voice in our hobby!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I appreciate all the support, well-wishing, and positive vibes! If I'm ahead of my time, hopefully that means my little area of the hobby will catch up. Or the Communists will take over, and we won't need money - only sweet, sweet escapism.
The KS is almost funded. Tell everyone you can that this is the most important crowdfunding event of the century... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/vengersatanis/primordial-chaos-gonzo-like-a-fucking-boss
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 25, 2024, 10:48:29 AMQuote from: VengerSatanis on August 24, 2024, 04:58:20 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on August 24, 2024, 09:46:11 AMQuote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:46:27 PMThat's a crying shame. I think there's been a sudden shift in the zeitgeist of the OSR.
Yeah, the OSR does appear to me to be (for lack of a better phrase) losing its edge. Not just Venger's stuff. I seem to be seeing a less of the weird heavy metal aesthetic that used to be kind of a major subscene in the OSR. Meanwhile, recent successes like Shadowdark are pretty edge-free. Even Pundit's stuff is safe in a way. Historical roleplaying is always its own little niche, and historical authenticity is still an accepted justification for political correctness in most gaming circles. I have no data here, but I've been stewing on this for a couple of days, and a theory is starting to come together.
I think the chief reason for this is a change in who the new people coming into the OSR are. I suspect that as a commercial proposition, the OSR relies heavily on new adherents. It appears to me that people do the lion's share of their purchasing in the first few years after they get interested in the OSR, particularly for more out-there products. Once people have been in it for a while, they tend to drift back towards middle-of-the-road dungeon fantasy and you hear more of the "I have all the books I'll ever need" sentiment. So if you sell weirder products, you need to reach newcomers.
Previously, people coming to the OSR were usually pretty hardcore RPG gamers, as they were the only people who would find it, and they were people dissatisfied not just with the rules of current D&D, but with the tone and play culture. Then the OSR got a notoriety bump due to YouTube and the RPG boom during COVID, and a bunch of new converts after the OGL situation. I think the new audience is more composed of people who might have gotten disillusioned with the D&D rules, or with WOTC as a company, but were perfectly happy with the tone and culture of modern D&D. Add to that the fact that the generation entering prime RPG-buying age right now grew up in a generally edge-less culture, and it could explain why edge-less creators are seeing a lot of success and companies like Necrotic Gnome appear to be moving in that direction.
Again, I have no data here. It's just how things look from my outsider's perspective.
Yes, I think that has a lot to do with it. Also, have you seen that statistic, testosterone in men has gone down something like 20% over the last 20 years? Edge is an aspect of masculinity, and with beta-cuck male feminist gamers filling up all the seats, there's not much left for us real men.
And we may as well blame Millennials because... well, fuck them! Lol, mostly kidding.
There's way more based milennials out there than you old-timers tend to think. We were the primary consumers and creators of the 2000s 4-chan era of edgy internet humor after all. I don't think those intrusive thoughts ever went away, but we're also acutely aware of the social controls in place these days and the potential costs of anyone finding out what's actually going on behind our eyes. IME dissident-minded millennials are extremely careful about letting our thoughtcrimes show. That poses problems for an inherently public activity like tabletop gaming.
Also, I don't think many of the dissident millennials are in the RPG space. One thing you can fairly blame my generation for is the shift in RPGs from being a thing for stoners, heavy metal kids and army vets, to being a thing for theater kids and bloggers. The former group seems to have exclusively gone over to videogames. That's for a lot of reasons, but the changing tone of the RPG space might be one of them.
If I had to guess, the drop in average testosterone levels is probably mostly due to a general decline in public health. If memory serves, T-levels in men are strongly correlated with a bunch of nutritional and body-composition metrics.
I hope that's true. We need all the based, masculine, traditionalist folks we can get. Even if you're silent in the crowd, support independent creators you love, so they know they're not alone. ;)
Quote from: VengerSatanis on August 27, 2024, 04:13:21 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on August 25, 2024, 10:48:29 AMQuote from: VengerSatanis on August 24, 2024, 04:58:20 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on August 24, 2024, 09:46:11 AMQuote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:46:27 PMThat's a crying shame. I think there's been a sudden shift in the zeitgeist of the OSR.
Yeah, the OSR does appear to me to be (for lack of a better phrase) losing its edge. Not just Venger's stuff. I seem to be seeing a less of the weird heavy metal aesthetic that used to be kind of a major subscene in the OSR. Meanwhile, recent successes like Shadowdark are pretty edge-free. Even Pundit's stuff is safe in a way. Historical roleplaying is always its own little niche, and historical authenticity is still an accepted justification for political correctness in most gaming circles. I have no data here, but I've been stewing on this for a couple of days, and a theory is starting to come together.
I think the chief reason for this is a change in who the new people coming into the OSR are. I suspect that as a commercial proposition, the OSR relies heavily on new adherents. It appears to me that people do the lion's share of their purchasing in the first few years after they get interested in the OSR, particularly for more out-there products. Once people have been in it for a while, they tend to drift back towards middle-of-the-road dungeon fantasy and you hear more of the "I have all the books I'll ever need" sentiment. So if you sell weirder products, you need to reach newcomers.
Previously, people coming to the OSR were usually pretty hardcore RPG gamers, as they were the only people who would find it, and they were people dissatisfied not just with the rules of current D&D, but with the tone and play culture. Then the OSR got a notoriety bump due to YouTube and the RPG boom during COVID, and a bunch of new converts after the OGL situation. I think the new audience is more composed of people who might have gotten disillusioned with the D&D rules, or with WOTC as a company, but were perfectly happy with the tone and culture of modern D&D. Add to that the fact that the generation entering prime RPG-buying age right now grew up in a generally edge-less culture, and it could explain why edge-less creators are seeing a lot of success and companies like Necrotic Gnome appear to be moving in that direction.
Again, I have no data here. It's just how things look from my outsider's perspective.
Yes, I think that has a lot to do with it. Also, have you seen that statistic, testosterone in men has gone down something like 20% over the last 20 years? Edge is an aspect of masculinity, and with beta-cuck male feminist gamers filling up all the seats, there's not much left for us real men.
And we may as well blame Millennials because... well, fuck them! Lol, mostly kidding.
There's way more based milennials out there than you old-timers tend to think. We were the primary consumers and creators of the 2000s 4-chan era of edgy internet humor after all. I don't think those intrusive thoughts ever went away, but we're also acutely aware of the social controls in place these days and the potential costs of anyone finding out what's actually going on behind our eyes. IME dissident-minded millennials are extremely careful about letting our thoughtcrimes show. That poses problems for an inherently public activity like tabletop gaming.
Also, I don't think many of the dissident millennials are in the RPG space. One thing you can fairly blame my generation for is the shift in RPGs from being a thing for stoners, heavy metal kids and army vets, to being a thing for theater kids and bloggers. The former group seems to have exclusively gone over to videogames. That's for a lot of reasons, but the changing tone of the RPG space might be one of them.
If I had to guess, the drop in average testosterone levels is probably mostly due to a general decline in public health. If memory serves, T-levels in men are strongly correlated with a bunch of nutritional and body-composition metrics.
I hope that's true. We need all the based, masculine, traditionalist folks we can get. Even if you're silent in the crowd, support independent creators you love, so they know they're not alone. ;)
Well, I try to carry the flag for my generation, but I can't promise much. Now that I've been thinking about it, the generational+political shift is real. Just as an example, I'm still in contact with most of the people I played D&D with in middle and high school (I grew up in one of those towns where no one ever leaves). Of the ones that grew up to be anti-woke or even just traditionally oriented, I am the only one that still plays.
Come to think of it, that might be one of the more insidious ways WOTC/Paizo and all the big publishers are damaging the hobby. If the public face of roleplaying is woke, the non-woke are going to look at it and assume the hobby's not for them. Most people, if they didn't play D&D in the 80s, are going only going to find the OSR if they first pass through the gateway of official D&D/Pathfinder. That acts as a kind of filtration system, in that a person has to be dissatisfied with contemporary roleplaying, but love it enough to stay in the hobby and seek out alternatives. The situation is getting better with information about the OSR being more available online (though of course that sphere is dominated by a small subset of OSR games), but if the OSR as a whole could bypass the WOTC/Paizo gateway and appeal direct to newcomers, that'd probably be huge for it's long-term success.
EDIT: Of course, it also doesn't help that the more traditionalist millennials are all at the age where they have young children now, so they're at their lowest point when it comes to free time and money. The childless, forever-teenager crowd is always going to exercise out of proportion buying power in the hobby world.
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 24, 2024, 09:46:11 AMQuote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:46:27 PMThat's a crying shame. I think there's been a sudden shift in the zeitgeist of the OSR.
Yeah, the OSR does appear to me to be (for lack of a better phrase) losing its edge. Not just Venger's stuff. I seem to be seeing a less of the weird heavy metal aesthetic that used to be kind of a major subscene in the OSR. Meanwhile, recent successes like Shadowdark are pretty edge-free. Even Pundit's stuff is safe in a way. Historical roleplaying is always its own little niche, and historical authenticity is still an accepted justification for political correctness in most gaming circles. I have no data here, but I've been stewing on this for a couple of days, and a theory is starting to come together.
Well, its fair to say that historical authentic isn't exactly punk rock or heavy metal, but Baptism of Fire is in some ways more heavy metal than most of my other historical games. Plus it has the edginess of Christians vs Pagans.
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 27, 2024, 11:24:18 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on August 24, 2024, 09:46:11 AMQuote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:46:27 PMThat's a crying shame. I think there's been a sudden shift in the zeitgeist of the OSR.
Yeah, the OSR does appear to me to be (for lack of a better phrase) losing its edge. Not just Venger's stuff. I seem to be seeing a less of the weird heavy metal aesthetic that used to be kind of a major subscene in the OSR. Meanwhile, recent successes like Shadowdark are pretty edge-free. Even Pundit's stuff is safe in a way. Historical roleplaying is always its own little niche, and historical authenticity is still an accepted justification for political correctness in most gaming circles. I have no data here, but I've been stewing on this for a couple of days, and a theory is starting to come together.
Well, its fair to say that historical authentic isn't exactly punk rock or heavy metal, but Baptism of Fire is in some ways more heavy metal than most of my other historical games. Plus it has the edginess of Christians vs Pagans.
Do not conflate edgy and weird with gratuitous lewdness.
CWN is Cyberpunk, I think you can call that edgy without risking being wrong.
Venger's stuff (and I like the guy so much I made him the logo for vengercon for free[he latter modified it]) is lewd, which has it's market, it's just a reduced market.
He also cornered himself by doing ONLY Chaalt stuff.
So we're talking about a niche, within a niche, within a niche...
His internet persona doesn't help
He also made the mistake (a huge no-no IMHO) of injecting his politics into at least one product TIKO.
So you're appealing to a sub-set of a sub-set of a sub-set, with TWO major to medium turn offs added on top of it.
(Sorry my dude, I like you but I'm just giving my honest analysis of your stuff/situation as I see it).
Add to that the economy and you have a recipe for disaster.
Pundit on the other hand has diversified his offerings, publishes TWO periodicals with cheap prices and useful stuff on them.
Cities Without Number's CF was a big success, BECAUSE we all know he delivers the goods.
I'm betting on a more Pulp style for my stuff (most of it anyway), which means sexy women but will not include the spicy Pulps into the mix.