Quote from: Crusader X on August 20, 2024, 11:34:56 PMI really liked one of the older versions of Crimson Dragon Slayer.  I believe it was labeled as D20 Revised.  It was a very nice rules-light game, and as I'm getting older I'm tending to prefer lighter games.  It was fairly generic in its rules (which is good!), but had a dash of gonzo to set it apart a bit from the crowd.  And I thought that was fine.

But later versions of Crimson Dragon Slayer turned me off.  When a Sleaze Factor rule was introduced, I became less interested in the game. I play with a group of old fat guys, so I don't want sex rules as part of my game. And I've been on the lookout for a nice, simple, light game to teach to people who have never played tabletop RPGs before, and CDS comes close to what I'm looking for, but the sex stuff disqualifies it.  I was rather surprised when you introduced the Crimson Dragon Slayer Micro version of the game, which shrunk the game even further in page count, yet you still found room in the very limited page space to fit in sex rules. 

I'm definitely not telling you how to write your games.  If you think sleaze rules should be in a game with an already limited page count, you do you. I'm just saying why I, as a consumer, would not spend money on it.  And while Crimson Dragon Slayer is free, this carries over to your other products as well.  I came very close to purchasing your Cha'alt books several times, when you had really good sales on them, but the ick factor for me (and for the fat guys at my gaming table, and for the newbies I might introduce to RPGS) prevented me from pulling the trigger on your products.  I know the sleaze is part of your brand   but I'm sure you know it also limits your brand.

Yeah, I don't play with strippers or any women at all.  It's pretty much middle-aged guys and a millennial dude or two.  So, I assure you we use our imagination - and pictures of hotties found on the internet - when sex comes up in our sessions.  It's really the same as imagining killing orcs, instead of the players believing they're attacking me behind the screen. 

If I wasn't the only one (maybe there's another RPG or two out there somewhere) including rules and mechanical bonuses for sex and sleaze, I might relent.  But there's got to be hundreds of OSR rules-light systems out there that don't have that stuff.  Even if it wasn't my jam, which it is, I'd want to be in that .01% of RPGs.

This thread and other discussions I've had on social media, both public and private, have led me to the road I now walk... or slither.

Kort'thalis Publishing is closing its gates.  I'll still be around and gaming, but the business side of things is going away.  Details and context here: https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2024/08/end-of-aeon.html

Quote from: VengerSatanis on August 23, 2024, 11:39:32 AM

Quote from: Vidgrip on August 20, 2024, 07:35:56 PMI'm not an industry guy so all I can provide is my one data point and that is what I do and don't buy. I'm not into heavy gonzo. I don't buy comic books. The only product of yours I've actually purchased is Revelry in Torth. More please. That product captures everything I want in Sword & Sorcery, and the art is perfect. You "get" that particular genre better than most who write for it. If you wrote short, tightly-focused OSR adventures that could be dropped into other Sword & Sorcery settings, I'd buy them all.

I'm sure you're not alone. ...Such as Stairway of V'dreen.

I can assure Vidgrip he isn't alone; I've thought the same at times. I have bought a couple Cha'alt products though, but not of late as I'm not running nor in a game they fit in.

Will have to check into Stairway of V'dreen though.

And yes Kickstarter fatigue is definitely real and affects videogames as well. Things fund much slower than they did; if they even do from what I've seen.

That's a crying shame. I think there's been a sudden shift in the zeitgeist of the OSR.

Quote from: WERDNA on August 23, 2024, 01:01:31 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on August 23, 2024, 11:39:32 AM

Quote from: Vidgrip on August 20, 2024, 07:35:56 PMI'm not an industry guy so all I can provide is my one data point and that is what I do and don't buy. I'm not into heavy gonzo. I don't buy comic books. The only product of yours I've actually purchased is Revelry in Torth. More please. That product captures everything I want in Sword & Sorcery, and the art is perfect. You "get" that particular genre better than most who write for it. If you wrote short, tightly-focused OSR adventures that could be dropped into other Sword & Sorcery settings, I'd buy them all.

I'm sure you're not alone. ...Such as Stairway of V'dreen.

I can assure Vidgrip he isn't alone; I've thought the same at times. I have bought a couple Cha'alt products though, but not of late as I'm not running nor in a game they fit in.

Will have to check into Stairway of V'dreen though.

And yes Kickstarter fatigue is definitely real and affects videogames as well. Things fund much slower than they did; if they even do from what I've seen.

If the KS funds were down, but I was doing well on the DriveThru front, that would be a different story, but both down at once... and direct sales on top of that?  It's unsustainable. 

Quote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:46:27 PMThat's a crying shame. I think there's been a sudden shift in the zeitgeist of the OSR.

That doesn't surprise me.  See you on the other side, hoss!

Venger, saddened to read of this news.  You're a unique and valuable voice, and I hope you stick around and post your purple putrescence frequently!

Quote from: VengerSatanis on August 23, 2024, 12:01:33 PMThis thread and other discussions I've had on social media, both public and private, have led me to the road I now walk... or slither.

Kort'thalis Publishing is closing its gates.  I'll still be around and gaming, but the business side of things is going away.  Details and context here: https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2024/08/end-of-aeon.html

I wish you well, and I'm glad that this hasn't soured you on gaming for fun.

Quote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:46:27 PMThat's a crying shame. I think there's been a sudden shift in the zeitgeist of the OSR.

Yeah, the OSR does appear to me to be (for lack of a better phrase) losing its edge. Not just Venger's stuff. I seem to be seeing a less of the weird heavy metal aesthetic that used to be kind of a major subscene in the OSR. Meanwhile, recent successes like Shadowdark are pretty edge-free. Even Pundit's stuff is safe in a way. Historical roleplaying is always its own little niche, and historical authenticity is still an accepted justification for political correctness in most gaming circles. I have no data here, but I've been stewing on this for a couple of days, and a theory is starting to come together.

I think the chief reason for this is a change in who the new people coming into the OSR are. I suspect that as a commercial proposition, the OSR relies heavily on new adherents. It appears to me that people do the lion's share of their purchasing in the first few years after they get interested in the OSR, particularly for more out-there products. Once people have been in it for a while, they tend to drift back towards middle-of-the-road dungeon fantasy and you hear more of the "I have all the books I'll ever need" sentiment. So if you sell weirder products, you need to reach newcomers.

Previously, people coming to the OSR were usually pretty hardcore RPG gamers, as they were the only people who would find it, and they were people dissatisfied not just with the rules of current D&D, but with the tone and play culture. Then the OSR got a notoriety bump due to YouTube and the RPG boom during COVID, and a bunch of new converts after the OGL situation. I think the new audience is more composed of people who might have gotten disillusioned with the D&D rules, or with WOTC as a company, but were perfectly happy with the tone and culture of modern D&D. Add to that the fact that the generation entering prime RPG-buying age right now grew up in a generally edge-less culture, and it could explain why edge-less creators are seeing a lot of success and companies like Necrotic Gnome appear to be moving in that direction.

Again, I have no data here. It's just how things look from my outsider's perspective.

Quote from: Brigman on August 24, 2024, 12:10:01 AMVenger, saddened to read of this news.  You're a unique and valuable voice, and I hope you stick around and post your purple putrescence frequently!

Thanks, hoss.  I will try!

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 24, 2024, 01:53:20 AM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on August 23, 2024, 12:01:33 PMThis thread and other discussions I've had on social media, both public and private, have led me to the road I now walk... or slither.

Kort'thalis Publishing is closing its gates.  I'll still be around and gaming, but the business side of things is going away.  Details and context here: https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2024/08/end-of-aeon.html

I wish you well, and I'm glad that this hasn't soured you on gaming for fun.

Indeed, I made this move so I didn't become a bitter angry curmudgeon rage-quitting from the hobby altogether. Now, I can focus on the fun of gaming.
 

Quote from: ForgottenF on August 24, 2024, 09:46:11 AM

Quote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:46:27 PMThat's a crying shame. I think there's been a sudden shift in the zeitgeist of the OSR.

Yeah, the OSR does appear to me to be (for lack of a better phrase) losing its edge. Not just Venger's stuff. I seem to be seeing a less of the weird heavy metal aesthetic that used to be kind of a major subscene in the OSR. Meanwhile, recent successes like Shadowdark are pretty edge-free. Even Pundit's stuff is safe in a way. Historical roleplaying is always its own little niche, and historical authenticity is still an accepted justification for political correctness in most gaming circles. I have no data here, but I've been stewing on this for a couple of days, and a theory is starting to come together.

I think the chief reason for this is a change in who the new people coming into the OSR are. I suspect that as a commercial proposition, the OSR relies heavily on new adherents. It appears to me that people do the lion's share of their purchasing in the first few years after they get interested in the OSR, particularly for more out-there products. Once people have been in it for a while, they tend to drift back towards middle-of-the-road dungeon fantasy and you hear more of the "I have all the books I'll ever need" sentiment. So if you sell weirder products, you need to reach newcomers.

Previously, people coming to the OSR were usually pretty hardcore RPG gamers, as they were the only people who would find it, and they were people dissatisfied not just with the rules of current D&D, but with the tone and play culture. Then the OSR got a notoriety bump due to YouTube and the RPG boom during COVID, and a bunch of new converts after the OGL situation. I think the new audience is more composed of people who might have gotten disillusioned with the D&D rules, or with WOTC as a company, but were perfectly happy with the tone and culture of modern D&D. Add to that the fact that the generation entering prime RPG-buying age right now grew up in a generally edge-less culture, and it could explain why edge-less creators are seeing a lot of success and companies like Necrotic Gnome appear to be moving in that direction.

Again, I have no data here. It's just how things look from my outsider's perspective.

Yes, I think that has a lot to do with it.  Also, have you seen that statistic, testosterone in men has gone down something like 20% over the last 20 years?  Edge is an aspect of masculinity, and with beta-cuck male feminist gamers filling up all the seats, there's not much left for us real men. 

And we may as well blame Millennials because... well, fuck them!  Lol, mostly kidding.

Might I suggest you hold off on anything permanent. When 6E hits there will probably be a wave of abandoned table top players looking for something beyond Wizards products.

I also think you might consider bundling some of your previous products such as the sword and sorcery stuff like Toth and the Purple Islands or the F'ing boss books. Minimal effort since it's already written.

My sympathies Venger. It is always sad to close the book on a story.


Thank you for the magic you made and shared with the world. May you come back and write a new one.

Greetings!

Venger, I wish you all the best, my friend! I wrote you a message on your primary video announcing this development.

I appreciate everything that you have done, and stood for, Venger. You have been a fearless and strong voice in our hobby!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK