Quote from: ggroy;611867For this particular group, it was from answering an ad looking for 4E players.  I didn't know these particular individuals before, and haven't seen any of them since they walked out.

I suspect these particular fellows expected 4E as RAW.

As in, the GM has no say in anything; the rulebooka are the GM.

Hmm, you already give players human PCs that are not just a cut above the rest, but exceptional specimens of humanity. And yet this is not enough.

And when trying to play people w/ SPESHUL POWERZ!1!! you're not holding them to exploring the setting counterbalancing weaknesses (the "personal horror" or "social restrictions," etc.). And yet this is not enough, too.

The only thing they will tolerate is either a) having SPESHUL POWERZ!1!! among mere mortals. Or, if there's others w/ supernatural powers but of a lower grade, b) having TEH MOSTEST SPESHUL POWERZ!1!! OV ALL!

They have fixed power demands (I'd say 'issues' from what little you've expressed of them, but meh whatever I don't know them personally). You have a wider variety of, but still flexible, power demands. The twain shall never meet unless you concede.

And you can't find new players by expanding your circle of friends. These people are the only ones you'll spend your time with. You have no extra time, nor extra effort, to change this; this is the only pool you can work with.

... Well, yeah. You're fucked. Sounds self-made, but whatever, you still sound fucked. Seems like you already knew this answer, but I guess you want commiseration, so: "My condolences. It can be hard to engage in social activities with people who are rather stuck in a rut. If only one day you could find those with similar interests. Until then endure your suffering with grace."

In the off case you actually want a solution, the best I can suggest is play Amber or Lords of Olympus with them -- and just throw waves of mortal 'ants' at them to be crushed endlessly -- until their power fantasies get satisfied? I don't know if 'ant crushing' even relates to those games, but playing aspects of gods might be appealing to them at some level.

Quote from: The Butcher;611865The pitch looks good to me and your players' excuse makes no sense to me. Could you elaborate on what they said?

It's not Exalted without Exalts to some of them. The entire draw of the setting is setting what Exalts do to the status quo and going beyond the usual scale of fantasy adventures.

Quote from: The Butcher;611865Some games do take a bit more time to hit it off. I sometimes feel there's a marked trend towards more immediate gratification in more recent games. I see it in D&D 4e for example; people want to kick ass right out of the gate and do away with what is generally perceived to be the "grind" at low levels. and I respect that some people don't want to engage the lower ends of power and influence, but I feel the hobby's poorer for it. For me, the journey "from zero to hero" is as much fun (if not more so) than actually being the ass-kicking, world-shaping "hero."

Doesn't really track for us, we started a D&D4e game at 7th level and it's been awesome. Our Mass Effect game started out with pretty competent, experienced characters and that's been loads of fun, too.

The last time I "started at 1st level" was with WFRP2e and frankly the early sessions weren't much fun any time we got into combat and knew we could get one-shotted. Things were much better once we all had a career under our belts.

Quote from: The Butcher;611865More's the pity. CoC (and its growing brotherhood of non-BRP variants) is essentially about esssentially ordinary people sacrificing their lives and their minds to save the world from cosmic threats, and I think RPGs don't get more "badass normals" than this.

Categorically no interest in what essentially ordinary people get up to. That's not Badass Normal, part of the requirement of that trope is that they're exceptional, just not powered.

Quote from: The Butcher;611865Again, I have a hard time understanding the nature of your players' opposition to playing non-superpowered humans. Maybe that's worth clarifying with them?

I've clarified some more, they want something unusual to hang the idea on. This isn't about power levels, it's about mundanity.

Quote from: Opaopajr;612027Hmm, you already give players human PCs that are not just a cut above the rest, but exceptional specimens of humanity. And yet this is not enough.

And when trying to play people w/ SPESHUL POWERZ!1!! you're not holding them to exploring the setting counterbalancing weaknesses (the "personal horror" or "social restrictions," etc.). And yet this is not enough, too.

The only thing they will tolerate is either a) having SPESHUL POWERZ!1!! among mere mortals. Or, if there's others w/ supernatural powers but of a lower grade, b) having TEH MOSTEST SPESHUL POWERZ!1!! OV ALL!

They have fixed power demands (I'd say 'issues' from what little you've expressed of them, but meh whatever I don't know them personally). You have a wider variety of, but still flexible, power demands. The twain shall never meet unless you concede.

And you can't find new players by expanding your circle of friends. These people are the only ones you'll spend your time with. You have no extra time, nor extra effort, to change this; this is the only pool you can work with.

... Well, yeah. You're fucked. Sounds self-made, but whatever, you still sound fucked. Seems like you already knew this answer, but I guess you want commiseration, so: "My condolences. It can be hard to engage in social activities with people who are rather stuck in a rut. If only one day you could find those with similar interests. Until then endure your suffering with grace."

In the off case you actually want a solution, the best I can suggest is play Amber or Lords of Olympus with them -- and just throw waves of mortal 'ants' at them to be crushed endlessly -- until their power fantasies get satisfied? I don't know if 'ant crushing' even relates to those games, but playing aspects of gods might be appealing to them at some level.

While I'm sure it was fun to beat that straw man, you're way off of this.

It's not about being exceptional for them, but not being mundane. As a good example, we're playing Mage: the Awakening set in 1750s America. They're all playing starting mages, meaning in essence normal people with magic. By contrast, I'm playing a Proximus, an exceptional individual who isn't a mage.

See for me I don't care about having magic, I don't want to play an ordinary person. I'll quite happily be the (relatively) mundane dude while getting to be the action hero.

so once again...

for the other players...

how much of their motivation is based on their character growth speed/rate
vs
How much is being more powerful than a normal person?

Quote from: Kiero;612194Doesn't really track for us, we started a D&D4e game at 7th level and it's been awesome. Our Mass Effect game started out with pretty competent, experienced characters and that's been loads of fun, too.

The last time I "started at 1st level" was with WFRP2e and frankly the early sessions weren't much fun any time we got into combat and knew we could get one-shotted. Things were much better once we all had a career under our belts.

Why's that? What did you dislike about playing a low-level adventurer?

Quote from: Kiero;612194Categorically no interest in what essentially ordinary people get up to. That's not Badass Normal, part of the requirement of that trope is that they're exceptional, just not powered.

I'm going to go to CoC again for example's sake because it's a game I've played and run a lot. Why can't Professor Alfred Hieronymus Crowhurst, your out-of-shape (DEX 7) but brilliant (INT 16, EDU 17) 1920s Boston Brahmin scholar be considered "exceptional" for his Library Use 95% and Language (Chaldean) 90%, when these are the skills that allowed him to banish Rhan-Tegoth back to the starry abyss beyond, and save our pitiful world? Chaldean-literate scholars don't grow on trees, let alone someone with 90% (probably the most fluent Chaldean student in the modern world). He might not be Batman but he's an exceptional individual and an intellectual badass.

Quote from: Kiero;612194I've clarified some more, they want something unusual to hang the idea on. This isn't about power levels, it's about mundanity.

Being a normal person is not synonimous with mundanity. Mythos investigators, nWoD hunters (from Hunter: The Vigil) and just about every Traveller character out there are ordinary people thrust into extraordinary and supramundane circumstances. I don't think this is a fitting justification for your players' refusal, or an accurate explanation for your problem. Unless your players and/or you have zero experience with playing normal humans and are massively prejudiced to boot, which I have no reason to assume.

Quote from: Kiero;612194See for me I don't care about having magic, I don't want to play an ordinary person. I'll quite happily be the (relatively) mundane dude while getting to be the action hero.

Again, I really, really wish I could invite you (and everyone who has similar problems) over to my game table. I m a firm believer in "show, don't tell" and while I'm trying my best to understand your plight and come up with a solution, I'm not sure I'm (1) actually reaching out to you and (2) not sounding like a dick. Let me know if this is being of any help.

Quote from: Kiero;612194While I'm sure it was fun to beat that straw man, you're way off of this.

It's not about being exceptional for them, but not being mundane. As a good example, we're playing Mage: the Awakening set in 1750s America. They're all playing starting mages, meaning in essence normal people with magic. By contrast, I'm playing a Proximus, an exceptional individual who isn't a mage.

See for me I don't care about having magic, I don't want to play an ordinary person. I'll quite happily be the (relatively) mundane dude while getting to be the action hero.

No. You either do, or do not, have a problem.

If the above you just now said is true and you are happy with this arrangement from now until forever, you do not have a problem. And then there's no purpose to this topic.

If you really do have a problem with this arrangement, and did want an answer beyond commiseration, then you're seeking solutions. However you have set up conditions that no viable solution can be reached. Thus you're fucked. And therefore again there's no purpose to this topic... and further you knew this before starting this topic.

You know you can't change others. And you declare impossibility to change your situation yourself. And yet you still write this seeking... advice?

It cannot be. You sound far too intelligent for this emotional game. Unless you are seeking commiseration, there is no strawman here except your examples I'm afraid.

This is an old story with examples in every calcified circle of friends. You can't share all your interests with the same circle. You tried, they said no, you have your answer. You now either adapt to your circle or develop an additional one.

Quote from: Kiero;612194Categorically no interest in what essentially ordinary people get up to. That's not Badass Normal, part of the requirement of that trope is that they're exceptional, just not powered.

Sounds like you want something close to pulp.

IMO what you need to do is draw a bright line so people don't weasel back into thinking that the game is about "powerz." For this, you have to start by ditching any hope of playing in Creation.

Then you can look at another setting, either one that they aren't familiar with and so can "power down" as necessary, or one of your own devising.

Finally: a system.

In spite of your anti-BRP feelings, I'd still suggest you have a look at the settings which have been made for BRP and RQ/Legend. Specifically: Age of Treason, or possibly Swords of Cydoria, or even one of the historical books such as Crusaders of the Amber Coast. I'm sure there are other settings out there; I'd consider Legends of Steel if I were looking.

For system, again BRP or RQ are probably suitable; the trick is to make beginning PCs powerful enough that they start taking advantage of the special tricks available in the system. I.e., at the low end of complexity, BRP has special and critical hits which are devastating; highly skilled characters can also make multiple attacks and (depending on options) may give them the ability to "riposte" on a good parry roll. At the higher end of complexity, Mongoose RQ/Legend, and RQ6, add combat maneuvers which let you do special things when you roll well. Against and among ordinary people, the PCs will still kick ass. I should note that the old Elric!/Stormbringer deliberately made beginning characters more competent than in Runequest, and that's probably still a difference in the various books published now (e.g., I wouldn't reject Legend without looking at Mongoose's Elric of Melnibone, and I wouldn't reject BRP without looking at the upcoming Magic World supplement, which is based on the old Elric!).

But that isn't necessary. If you like Exalted, then use the rules from Exalted. Just don't call them Exalted. Call them "The Rules" and present them as a naive set of custom rules for your strong personal vision, as if you'd never seen anything other than Exalted and believed, therefore, that your modifications were a set of radical innovations. (In short, make an Exalted heartbreaker and don't be shy about it.)

OK, Kiero, so you want a game which doesn't revolve around supernatural powers but at the same time is about "Badass Normals", who are beyond ordinary people to an unspecified but notable degree.

Flippant response: Well, if they're doing shit that is beyond the capability of real human beings - as "Badass Normal" (ugh, TVTropes) action heroes do all the time - isn't that supernatural?

Non-flippant response: Earlier in this thread, it sounded to me like you had a broad range of characters in mind for games you want to GM, but now you have clarified this point it seems to me that your tastes here are actually narrower than the other players'. After all, even if they aren't willing to play characters without supernatural powers that still leaves scope for everything from street-level occultists to full-blown Exalts and everything in between, whereas what you want to play and run games for seems to cover a very narrow power level indeed.

So, level with me mamajama: why don't you want to GM for PCs with supernatural powers (beyond the quasi-supernatural power of being a "Badass Normal")?

Quote from: LordVreeg;612220so once again...

for the other players...

how much of their motivation is based on their character growth speed/rate
vs
How much is being more powerful than a normal person?

None of those are relevant, this isn't what their objections are based on. Primarily (I'm guessing), they want the escapism of playing people who aren't possible in real life.

Quote from: The Butcher;612313Why's that? What did you dislike about playing a low-level adventurer?

It's tedious and doesn't interest me in the slightest. How about we come back when they're actually competent people?

I will never, ever play a 1st level character in a D&D game again. It's a redline for me. Fortunately my group aren't all that attached to the notion that you have to start at the beginning and work your way through.

As a counterpoint, I don't have any interest in the upper levels of D&D either. My sweet spot is something like 5th to 10th, outside that range I don't really want to be involved.

Our D&D4e game which started at 7th has had two runs so far, the third and final might end with us hitting 10th level, though that's not guaranteed. The PCs are 9th right now.

Quote from: The Butcher;612313I'm going to go to CoC again for example's sake because it's a game I've played and run a lot. Why can't Professor Alfred Hieronymus Crowhurst, your out-of-shape (DEX 7) but brilliant (INT 16, EDU 17) 1920s Boston Brahmin scholar be considered "exceptional" for his Library Use 95% and Language (Chaldean) 90%, when these are the skills that allowed him to banish Rhan-Tegoth back to the starry abyss beyond, and save our pitiful world? Chaldean-literate scholars don't grow on trees, let alone someone with 90% (probably the most fluent Chaldean student in the modern world). He might not be Batman but he's an exceptional individual and an intellectual badass.

He's exceptional in a way that really doesn't matter for the sorts of games I'd want to play. I certainly wouldn't want to play Professor Alfred, and I wouldn't be impressed at having him in a game I was running.

Quote from: The Butcher;612313Being a normal person is not synonimous with mundanity. Mythos investigators, nWoD hunters (from Hunter: The Vigil) and just about every Traveller character out there are ordinary people thrust into extraordinary and supramundane circumstances. I don't think this is a fitting justification for your players' refusal, or an accurate explanation for your problem. Unless your players and/or you have zero experience with playing normal humans and are massively prejudiced to boot, which I have no reason to assume.

Except it is to them, which is all that really matters. This isn't an issue that can be resolved by arguing semantics with them.

As a GM, ordinary people aren't a constituency I want to run a game for. They bore me.

Quote from: The Butcher;612313Again, I really, really wish I could invite you (and everyone who has similar problems) over to my game table. I m a firm believer in "show, don't tell" and while I'm trying my best to understand your plight and come up with a solution, I'm not sure I'm (1) actually reaching out to you and (2) not sounding like a dick. Let me know if this is being of any help.

I've had some further information on this very question after asking them directly. They go:
1) I need something unusual about the game world or PCs to hang my imagination on, or it won't really appeal for anything other than a short game.
2) If the PCs are more than ordinary people, I'll give something a go.
3) I really like magic, it's one of my favourite things in RPGs and really engages my imagination, but I could try something without it for a short game. Preferably not another historical game now we're set for one.
4) Two others haven't responded yet.

Note this is only going to be a short game (6-12 sessions), though we might come back to it if people enjoy themselves.

So I'm now thinking something contemporary/modern or near-future.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;612417Sounds like you want something close to pulp.

IMO what you need to do is draw a bright line so people don't weasel back into thinking that the game is about "powerz." For this, you have to start by ditching any hope of playing in Creation.

Then you can look at another setting, either one that they aren't familiar with and so can "power down" as necessary, or one of your own devising.

I like pulp. That's a pretty strong inspiration for the sort of thing I'm after, along with action movies.

I've already given up any hope of playing a game set in Creation because they were quite adamant that no Exalts = no interest.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;612417Finally: a system.

I don't need one; the simplest one to use is my group's default which is nWoD.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;612417In spite of your anti-BRP feelings, I'd still suggest you have a look at the settings which have been made for BRP and RQ/Legend. Specifically: Age of Treason, or possibly Swords of Cydoria, or even one of the historical books such as Crusaders of the Amber Coast. I'm sure there are other settings out there; I'd consider Legends of Steel if I were looking.

What's cool about those settings? Are they low- to no-magic?

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;612417For system, again BRP or RQ are probably suitable; the trick is to make beginning PCs powerful enough that they start taking advantage of the special tricks available in the system. I.e., at the low end of complexity, BRP has special and critical hits which are devastating; highly skilled characters can also make multiple attacks and (depending on options) may give them the ability to "riposte" on a good parry roll. At the higher end of complexity, Mongoose RQ/Legend, and RQ6, add combat maneuvers which let you do special things when you roll well. Against and among ordinary people, the PCs will still kick ass. I should note that the old Elric!/Stormbringer deliberately made beginning characters more competent than in Runequest, and that's probably still a difference in the various books published now (e.g., I wouldn't reject Legend without looking at Mongoose's Elric of Melnibone, and I wouldn't reject BRP without looking at the upcoming Magic World supplement, which is based on the old Elric!).

Categorically not going to use BRP. I don't like percentile systems, it's far too complicated for my tastes (how many skills?), and my group is not likely to go about learning a new system for a short game.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;612417But that isn't necessary. If you like Exalted, then use the rules from Exalted. Just don't call them Exalted. Call them "The Rules" and present them as a naive set of custom rules for your strong personal vision, as if you'd never seen anything other than Exalted and believed, therefore, that your modifications were a set of radical innovations. (In short, make an Exalted heartbreaker and don't be shy about it.)

Apologies, but actually using Exalted's system is possibly the worst suggestion ever. It's truly awful. The only way I was ever going to run Exalted (and they were in full agreement, having suffered the native system) was with something else.

Quote from: Warthur;612559OK, Kiero, so you want a game which doesn't revolve around supernatural powers but at the same time is about "Badass Normals", who are beyond ordinary people to an unspecified but notable degree.

Flippant response: Well, if they're doing shit that is beyond the capability of real human beings - as "Badass Normal" (ugh, TVTropes) action heroes do all the time - isn't that supernatural?

Flippant response: no it isn't supernatural. More to the point, it's nothing like having magic/psionics/superpowers that are actively controlled by the players and are visible in the gameworld. And also possessed by their antagonists actively using them in response.

Quote from: Warthur;612559Non-flippant response: Earlier in this thread, it sounded to me like you had a broad range of characters in mind for games you want to GM, but now you have clarified this point it seems to me that your tastes here are actually narrower than the other players'. After all, even if they aren't willing to play characters without supernatural powers that still leaves scope for everything from street-level occultists to full-blown Exalts and everything in between, whereas what you want to play and run games for seems to cover a very narrow power level indeed.

So, level with me mamajama: why don't you want to GM for PCs with supernatural powers (beyond the quasi-supernatural power of being a "Badass Normal")?

For the Exalted game, they were going to play God-Blooded characters. They have powers, they're just not in the Exalt scale.

I don't want to GM for PCs with supernatural powers for several reasons. Firstly, ever other game we've played has featured them (WFRP2e, 40k and Star Wars hacks for Fate, D&D4e, DFRPG, nWoD Mass Effect and the upcoming Mage: the Awakening). Secondly, magic and magic systems bore me (I never play magic-using characters for that reason), having to ajudicate them as a GM even moreso. Thirdly, having to be constantly thinking about how magic-using NPCs might be reacting to the PCs is even more tedious.

Examples of the sorts of shows I'm thinking about when considering PCs: Burn Notice, The Unit, Leverage. Capable people in their fields, but still very much human beings who have to worry about things like being hurt and having to eat.

Quote from: Kiero;612620Examples of the sorts of shows I'm thinking about when considering PCs: Burn Notice, The Unit, Leverage. Capable people in their fields, but still very much human beings who have to worry about things like being hurt and having to eat.

So why the heck won't you pitch a Leverage game for them? Using the Leverage RPG or any other system you care to use.

Or if they must have supernatural stuff to shoot at, I say Night's Black Agents would be a damn fine choice.

Yeah, use Leverage. Not that I even know what that is, but it's what you're looking for.

To answer your reply,

I didn't know you hated the Exalted system. If you hate percentiles then BRP is also obviously not suitable, but the # of skills is typically in the range of 30, most of which will default. Take a look at the free (non-illustrated) version of
Openquest if you're curious. But it sounds like you're set with nWoD.

As for the settings, these are all S&S settings, except Crusaders of the Amber Coast, which is historical. They all have magic at least as an option but by their nature the magic can be excised just as you seem to have planned doing with Creation.

So, Kiero, what I'm now hearing is that you really don't want to engage with magic systems at all as a player or as a GM, but a) you want to play exceptional people who happen to be just about within the bounds of what is humanly possible if you squint and let action movie physics and biology apply, and b) the other members of your group want to play people who can do shit normal people can't do.

On this basis I can see why the Exalted-without-Exalts game didn't fly - I agree with your players that there's not much point playing in the Exalted setting unless the Exalty magic powers are in play. Rather than starting with a game which gave you what you wanted and your players what they wanted, you started with a game which gave the players what they wanted and then gutted it until it more resembled what you wanted.

I second the recommendation of seeking out the Leverage RPG - or, hell, any other game which is based around action movies. There's not a hell of a lot of options out there because what you're aiming at is a fairly narrow level of escapism, but you have options. And see about meeting your players halfway. Pitch the game specifically as an action movie-type game and make it clear that the PCs will be shit-hot cream of the crop dudes who will be able to pull off eye-watering stunts at the cutting edge of what is humanly possible. Reassure them that they will get their escapism because they'll be doing stuff which is well beyond the scope of what normal people do - they'll be doing things only intensely trained professionals could even hope to attempt. Moreover, emphasise what the PCs will be able to do rather than what you're not offering. Nothing saps enthusiasm more than a pitch which spends more time talking about what you can't do in the campaign than it does talking about what you can do.

Quote from: Kiero;611635They're not letting me run games that don't feature metahumans. This isn't a venting about being a player, but being a prospective GM for my group.

Not in an open and direct "I won't play that", but in a much more silent and grudging disapproval that takes a lot of effort to get it out of them that they really want their metahumans.

Huh. You've got a difficult problem there.  I guess the question would be WHY; what are they afraid will happen in those kinds of campaigns? High mortality? boredom? Loss of "protagonism"?

Figure out what it is that's given them this impression that playing ordinary characters is somehow going to be a bad experience.

RPGPundit

Sounds to me like Kiero just doesn't want to play D&D and instead would be much happier playing some other fantasy game without level and shit, like RuneQuest or Exalted or whatnot. At some point I think it's just best to realize just that to move on to greener pastures. YMMV.

Quote from: RPGPundit;612949Huh. You've got a difficult problem there.  I guess the question would be WHY; what are they afraid will happen in those kinds of campaigns? High mortality? boredom? Loss of "protagonism"?

Figure out what it is that's given them this impression that playing ordinary characters is somehow going to be a bad experience.

RPGPundit

I suspect boredom, in that without something unusual there's no hook for them.

Quote from: Benoist;612959Sounds to me like Kiero just doesn't want to play D&D and instead would be much happier playing some other fantasy game without level and shit, like RuneQuest or Exalted or whatnot. At some point I think it's just best to realize just that to move on to greener pastures. YMMV.

You caught the bit where our recent games were WFRP2e, 40k and Star Wars hacks for Fate, D&D4e, DFRPG, nWoD Mass Effect and we're gearing up for a historical Mage: the Awakening game, right?