Quote from: KenHR;300613RPG systems are not games.  They are just methods for resolution of conflict when an impartial methodology is needed.

As I said to Benoist, I think at this point we're on sufficiently different wavelengths (terminology-wise, at least) that going further isn't going to be terribly fruitful.  No harm, no foul.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;300616How is GURPS not a game?  What does it lack?  And who said that heavy lifting was incompatible with being a game?

KoOS

You did, in fact.  OD&D is a 'beta test' in your opinion because:

Quote...key elements of true "Old School" RPGs (like OD&D) is that they require the GM to "fill in the blanks" to be playable...

meaning that the heavy lifting part excludes it from being a game.  I don't see that GURPS has a significantly greater amount of rules.  Without the supplement books, GURPS is no more or less a 'beta test' than OD&D.

Quote from: King of Old School;300615I didn't acknowledge it because I believe it to be a rhetorical device rather than a useful definition.  If you want to say that D&D, the actual product you can buy and pick up and read, is not a game, well, you're using words in a way that IMO isn't conducive to useful discussion between us.  Just like when you defined the word "game" as "[any] activity that provides entertainment or amusement."  What's the point?  It's not even a disagreement, we're having two completely separate conversations that happen to be in the vicinity of one another.

KoOS

I do indeed mean to say that the actual rulebooks are not a game, but "handbooks", "guides" and "manuals", as their titles clearly state, to actually play a role-playing game.

That my words are not conducive to useful discussion is a choice you're making for yourself - I have no responsibility in it. These words make sense to me and a whole bunch of folks, among which the very grognards you seem to target, because that's what those words actually mean in the context of OD&D and, I believe, role-playing games in general.

If anything, I think you're the one who's ascribing such narrow definitions to the terms we're using as to basically reject any productive exchange we might otherwise have had.

Considering a rulebook to be "a game" in and of itself isn't a rhetorical jest on your part, I believe, but a concept I actually disagree with and attempt to address directly. I just wish you would return the favor.

Quote from: StormBringer;300618You did, in fact.

No, I assure you that you can play GURPS straight out of the book without having to add anything beyond what's required to play any RPG (e.g. the immediate situation in which the PCs find themselves).  In fact, it strives to be complete to a degree that many find distasteful (visit any GURPS thread on RPG.net for examples).

But then, I expect that you know this to be true and are being disingenuous.  Such is life.

KoOS

Quote from: Benoist;300619Considering a rulebook to be "a game" in and of itself isn't a rhetoric jest on your part, I believe, but a concept that I actually disagree with and attempt to address directly. I just wish you would return the favor.

Alas, I'm not interested in returning the favour.  I'm not interested in "converting" you or any such nonsense, and believe me when I tell you that you aren't capable of changing my mind either.  We fundamentally disagree, and that's the end of it.

Though if you really feel the need to tilt at windmills, I invite you to visit any mainstream game store and try to convince the staff that Monopoly and Clue aren't games; feel free to time how long it takes before they tire of listening to you and ask you to leave.  It's a genuinely interesting thought exercise!

KoOS

How is the GURPS Basic Set (Campaigns and Characters books only) a game, rather than a framework for building one?  What's at stake when you use only those materials?  What are the goals for the participants?

Where's the game in a pile of rules if those rules aren't applied to achieve an objective?

GURPS by itself is not a game.  It's a rulebook.  The rulebook gives one a framework to make a game (i.e. entertainment activity in which the participants are trying to achieve a goal against opposition).

If a pile of rules is a game, then the copy of the NYS Workers' Comp Insurance Manual sitting at my elbow right now must be one bigass thrill ride.

Quote from: King of Old School;300623Though if you really feel the need to tilt at windmills, I invite you to visit any mainstream game store and try to convince the staff that Monopoly and Clue aren't games; feel free to time how long it takes before they tire of listening to you and ask you to leave.  It's a genuinely interesting thought exercise!

KoOS

Monopoly and Clue aren't just rulebooks, but actually contain games.

GM Fiat? No, Chrysler Fiat. You not read news?

Quote from: King of Old School;300623Alas, I'm not interested in returning the favour.

That's a choice you're making. You can hold whatever you think as true if you want and refuse to confront a different point of view, but then, don't tell me what people who like OD&D think, say or imply. In this particular instance, it's obvious to me you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and it shows.

KoOS sounds like this guy (who was promptly taken to task, rightly, by some of the major Forge/Story Games personalities for being a dork).

Quote from: King of Old School;300592When people on Grognardia claim that one of the key elements of true "Old School" RPGs (like OD&D) is that they require the GM to "fill in the blanks" to be playable, that's a tacit admission that the games as published are incomplete beta versions.  

No. It means it's the sort of game that's best played with a lot of latitude for personal judgement calls and customization.

A game that needs personal judgement calls and customization is not incomplete or unfinished. It just isn't as airtight as a some people prefer their games to be.

Quote from: Benoist;300629That's a choice you're making. You can hold whatever you think as true if you want and refuse to confront a different point of view,

Obviously.  Your point of view is terribly uninteresting to me, and not terribly useful either -- after all, you're the guy who proposed a definition of "games" upthread that would encompass watching TV alone in the dark, or scratching your feet.  Trust me when I say that I have an almost infinite number of better uses of my time than confronting your point of view.

Quotebut then, don't tell me what people who like OD&D think, say or imply.

Why not?  Have you been given some sort of magical mod power to determine what constitutes acceptable commentary on TheRPGSite?

...

... No, I thought not.  So refute my comments if you want to, but if you're going to talk about something different than what I'm talking about you'll have to find another dance partner.

QuoteIn this particular instance, it's obvious to me you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and it shows.

It's obvious to me that you're a cunt.  Again.

KoOS

This thread having devolved into a circular pissing contest over definitions of terms ill-defined in the first place, I kill it and take its stuff.

This is a new era, OG...

HEALING SURGE!!!!!!

Quote from: King of Old School;300530Just once, I'd like to see someone actually address this...

KoOS

The primary reason why you don't often see GM Fiat used as the rationale for abandonment of system is because, ironically enough, the defense of GM Fiat is typically used to prop up a RPG product.  I'm sure we've all seen the following arguments:

"Just ignore what you don't like."

"It's not broken, just house rule it."

"Any RPG is great with a great GM."

"System X is great, you just had a shitty GM."

The defense of GM Fiat precludes any objective and constructive discussion about the products in our hobby.  It allows any product to be proclaimed the greatest ever.  It is used to siphon away the merit of the GM and ascribe it to the product.

With the defense of GM Fiat, any product, now matter how ill conceived and poorly designed becomes the equal of any other, no matter how well thought out and executed.