Quote from: Benoist;300593You actually do not understand said point of view, then.

No, I understand it just fine.  We just happen to disagree on what's being said.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;300592When people on Grognardia claim that one of the key elements of true "Old School" RPGs (like OD&D) is that they ALLOW the GM to "fill in the blanks" to be playable,

Fixed yer typo.

The game was "Build a world other people can explore".  The rules were there to help, and were of, by, and for the referee.

The fact you want to play a DIFFERENT game is irrelevant.

Quote from: King of Old School;300599No, I understand it just fine.  We just happen to disagree on what's being said.

KoOS

I think I'm right in our disagreement, hence: you actually do not understand.

Quote from: One Horse Town;300439I'm pretty sure we've had this one before, but i've been reading a thread over at tbp and it really got me wondering why some folk have such a bee in their bonet over it.

If you don't trust your GM's decisions, get a better one or play with people you trust!

That does bring up one interesting observation, however. What if you hardly ever play with people you trust? What if you really only play regularly at gaming conventions? The question of fiat becomes a more touchy one then. To quote Mr.T, "I pity the fool who only plays at conventions," but maybe that explains why some folk really have a problem with it?

The rules don't help if you don't agree with the sense of logic your GM has. Three of my players always agree with me about all of my rulings, all the time. One of them occasionally doesn't, but only because I step out of the rules, another always disagrees with everyone, and to him I'm shitty. There isn't any amount of rules following that will change that.

Quote from: King of Old School;300596Notwithstanding that I know exactly who Old Geezer is, I'm not sure I see how one conflicts with the other.  I'm pointing out that plenty of people who know and like OD&D would ascribe to it exactly the same traits I do, albeit in a more reverential way.

KoOS

So, you don't have an actual point then.

Quote from: Old Geezer;300598To you.

Others may see things differently.

Like as in "a construction kit for a game".

Yeah, and a construction kit for a game isn't a game, unless the game you're playing is Construct a Game: the Game.  To say that a handful of components and a finished product are meaningfully indistinguishable entities is absurd.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;300604Yeah, and a construction kit for a game isn't a game, unless the game you're playing is Construct a Game: the Game.  To say that a handful of components and a finished product are meaningfully indistinguishable entities is absurd.

KoOS

Therefore, GURPS and FUDGE aren't games.

Quote from: StormBringer;300603So, you don't have an actual point then.

Your inability to grasp the obvious does not connote the non-existence of the obvious.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;300604Yeah, and a construction kit for a game isn't a game, unless the game you're playing is Construct a Game: the Game.  To say that a handful of components and a finished product are meaningfully indistinguishable entities is absurd.

KoOS

You know, it's nice that you just took the first sentence of my post on "you don't understand" while not answering its actual points, because they explain what you don't acknowledge here:

The "game" here is what's actually happening around the table.
No rulebook, ever, constitutes "a game" on its own. It's just a tool helping you play a game with your friends. The GM and players are the ones who make the actual game happen, and OD&D more than any other game actually considers this simple fact a defining feature of RPGs.

Saying "OD&D requires the referee to fill in the blanks" is just saying "this is a game about a bunch of people around the table playing make-believe with the help of a bunch of dice and arbitrary rules put on paper. Don't forget you are the guys who make the game happen. Make judgment calls".

Quote from: StormBringer;300605Therefore, GURPS and FUDGE aren't games.

GURPS is a game. FUDGE is not (while FATE is).

EDIT: I'm not trying to get into the middle of the argument here, I just see this as a fairly obvious truth.

Quote from: StormBringer;300605Therefore, GURPS and FUDGE aren't games.

GURPS is a game; Fudge is a toolkit for creating games.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;300610GURPS is a game; Fudge is a toolkit for creating games.

KoOS

So, how is GURPS a game?  Last I checked, there is a damn load of heavy lifting to do after you have a character in hand.

Quote from: King of Old School;300604Yeah, and a construction kit for a game isn't a game, unless the game you're playing is Construct a Game: the Game.  To say that a handful of components and a finished product are meaningfully indistinguishable entities is absurd.

KoOS

RPG systems are not games.  They are just methods for resolution of conflict when an impartial methodology is needed.

They are frameworks for creating your own game.  Some may try to account for more situations than others, some may be specialized to accomodate certain types or genres of game than others.  Some might even have example games (adventures) to show you how to put your game together.  But a system is not a game.

The GM and the group make the game (i.e. the adventure or campaign).

Quote from: Benoist;300608You know, it's nice that you just took the first sentence of my post on "you don't understand" while not answering its actual points, because they explain what you don't acknowledge here:

The "game" here is what's actually happening around the table.  No rulebook, ever, constitutes "a game" on its own.

I didn't acknowledge it because I believe it to be a rhetorical device rather than a useful definition.  If you want to say that D&D, the actual product you can buy and pick up and read, is not a game, well, you're using words in a way that IMO isn't conducive to useful discussion between us.  Just like when you defined the word "game" as "[any] activity that provides entertainment or amusement."  What's the point?  It's not even a disagreement, we're having two completely separate conversations that happen to be in the vicinity of one another.

KoOS

Quote from: StormBringer;300612So, how is GURPS a game?

How is GURPS not a game?  What does it lack?  And who said that heavy lifting was incompatible with being a game?

KoOS