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GM Fiat

Started by One Horse Town, May 08, 2009, 04:47:42 AM

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KenHR

#30
May 08, 2009, 04:07:12 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;300567What you're describing isn't a game, it's a beta test for a game.

KoOS

I know TSR said many times they rushed D&D out the door in response to demand from gamers who wanted to try the rules.

And the principals in the original company were miniature wargamers, used to reading and interpreting miniatures rules at the time.  D&D's presentation in the original box really isn't that far removed from some of the miniatures rulesets available at the time.  Referee interpretation was a big part of how games were run.
For fuck\'s sake, these are games, people.

And no one gives a fuck about your ignore list.


Gompan
band - other music

flyingmice

#31
May 08, 2009, 04:10:32 PM
Quote from: KenHR;300577I know TSR said many times they rushed D&D out the door in response to demand from gamers who wanted to try the rules.

And the principals in the original company were miniature wargamers, used to reading and interpreting miniatures rules at the time.  D&D's presentation in the original box really isn't that far removed from some of the miniatures rulesets available at the time.  Referee interpretation was a big part of how games were run.

If anyone should know, it's Old Geezer. :D

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/flyingmice.html
Currently Designing: StarCluster 4 - Wavefront Empire
Last Releases: SC4 - Dark Orbital, SC4 - Out of the Ruins,  SC4 - Sabre & World
Blog: I FLY BY NIGHT

Benoist

#32
May 08, 2009, 04:13:02 PM Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 04:15:27 PM by Benoist
Quote from: King of Old School;300569This doesn't quite parse in English.  Did you mean "while rules are convenient..."?

And my answer to that is if you don't need rules, you aren't playing a game.  You're indulging in some other hobby, the exact title of which I leave as an exercise for the reader.

KoOS
Yes, I meant "while".

I guess I disagree about your assessment of what a game is and isn't, then. An activity that provides entertainment or amusement is what I would call "a game". Some games, particularly competitive ones, require rules, but not all games need rules to function. If you see an RPG as a cooperative activity, and not a competitive one, it doesn't actually require "rules" other than basic social ones (i.e. not being an ass to one another, for one).

Benoist

#33
May 08, 2009, 04:16:33 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;300567What [Old Geezer is] describing isn't a game, it's a beta test for a game.

KoOS
That actually made me laugh. :D

King of Old School

#34
May 08, 2009, 04:17:18 PM
Quote from: flyingmice;300570So OD&D was a beta test for a game? Interesting opinion.
It's essentially a rewording of the ethos that appears to drive the whole retro-clone movement, as expressed on sites like Grognardia.  Of course, they'd take umbrage with my wording it thus, but there you have it.

KoOS
 

Benoist

#35
May 08, 2009, 04:21:38 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;300585It's essentially a rewording of the ethos that appears to drive the whole retro-clone movement, as expressed on sites like Grognardia.  Of course, they'd take umbrage with my wording it thus, but there you have it.

KoOS
"What you're describing isn't a game, it's a beta test for a game." - This, here, is what you call the "ethos driving the whole retro-clone movement"? Excuse me but, could you actually spell out this ethos to me? I really don't see what you're trying to say.

King of Old School

#36
May 08, 2009, 04:24:32 PM
Quote from: Benoist;300580I guess I disagree about your assessment of what a game is and isn't, then. An activity that provides entertainment or amusement is what I would call "a game".
That's an overly broad and all-encompassing definition IMO (by that standard, watching The Daily Show is "a game"), but it's a fair one.

KoOS
 

flyingmice

#37
May 08, 2009, 04:26:09 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;300585It's essentially a rewording of the ethos that appears to drive the whole retro-clone movement, as expressed on sites like Grognardia.  Of course, they'd take umbrage with my wording it thus, but there you have it.

KoOS

Ummm... This isn't a retro cloner explaining the retro clone ethos, it's a guy who was there with Mr. Gygax and Mr. Arneson telling us what actually happened.

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/flyingmice.html
Currently Designing: StarCluster 4 - Wavefront Empire
Last Releases: SC4 - Dark Orbital, SC4 - Out of the Ruins,  SC4 - Sabre & World
Blog: I FLY BY NIGHT

King of Old School

#38
May 08, 2009, 04:27:45 PM
Quote from: Benoist;300587"What you're describing isn't a game, it's a beta test for a game." - This, here, is what you call the "ethos driving the whole retro-clone movement"? Excuse me but, could you actually spell out this ethos to me? I really don't see what you're trying to say.
When people on Grognardia claim that one of the key elements of true "Old School" RPGs (like OD&D) is that they require the GM to "fill in the blanks" to be playable, that's a tacit admission that the games as published are incomplete beta versions.  I very much doubt they (or you) appreciate the characterization, but there you have it.

KoOS
 

Benoist

#39
May 08, 2009, 04:37:17 PM Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 04:39:42 PM by Benoist
Quote from: King of Old School;300592When people on Grognardia claim that one of the key elements of true "Old School" RPGs (like OD&D) is that they require the GM to "fill in the blanks" to be playable, that's a tacit admission that the games as published are incomplete beta versions.  I very much doubt they (or you) appreciate the characterization, but there you have it.

KoOS
You actually do not understand said point of view, then.

The "game" here is what's actually happening around the table.
No rulebook, ever, constitutes "a game" on its own. It's just a tool helping you play a game with your friends. The GM and players are the ones who make the actual game happen, and OD&D more than any other game actually considers this simple fact a defining feature of RPGs.

Saying "OD&D requires the referee to fill in the blanks" is just saying "this is a game about a bunch of people around the table playing make-believe with the help of a bunch of dice and arbitrary rules put on paper. Don't forget you are the guys who make the game happen. Make judgment calls".

The Worid

#40
May 08, 2009, 04:37:35 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;300569And my answer to that is if you don't need rules, you aren't playing a game.  You're indulging in some other hobby, the exact title of which I leave as an exercise for the reader.

I'm going to poke my head into this thread to agree with you. Games have rules (or rather, at least one rule) by definition.
Playing: Dungeons & Dragons 2E
Running: Nothing at the moment
On Hold: Castles and Crusades, Gamma World 1E

KenHR

#41
May 08, 2009, 04:37:43 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;300592When people on Grognardia claim that one of the key elements of true "Old School" RPGs (like OD&D) is that they require the GM to "fill in the blanks" to be playable, that's a tacit admission that the games as published are incomplete beta versions.  I very much doubt they (or you) appreciate the characterization, but there you have it.

KoOS

Grognardia isn't the voice of a generation, and certainly doesn't speak for me.  And by the way, it's just one guy.

D&D is perfectly playable by the book.  It might need interpretation here and there to clear up ambiguity, yes, but again, that was part of the gaming culture from which those rules arose.

RPGs are too open-ended to account for every eventuality.  Hell, minis games are too open-ended to account for every eventuality, thus the need for referees and the presentation of rules as guidelines for setting up your own games and campaigns.

You're viewing a completely different gaming culture through a modern lens.
For fuck\'s sake, these are games, people.

And no one gives a fuck about your ignore list.


Gompan
band - other music

King of Old School

#42
May 08, 2009, 04:39:30 PM
Quote from: flyingmice;300590Ummm... This isn't a retro cloner explaining the retro clone ethos, it's a guy who was there with Mr. Gygax and Mr. Arneson telling us what actually happened.
Notwithstanding that I know exactly who Old Geezer is, I'm not sure I see how one conflicts with the other.  I'm pointing out that plenty of people who know and like OD&D would ascribe to it exactly the same traits I do, albeit in a more reverential way.

KoOS
 

KenHR

#43
May 08, 2009, 04:40:28 PM
You're too intense for my blood, man.... :)
For fuck\'s sake, these are games, people.

And no one gives a fuck about your ignore list.


Gompan
band - other music

Gronan of Simmerya

#44
May 08, 2009, 04:42:26 PM
Quote from: King of Old School;300567What you're describing isn't a game, it's a beta test for a game.

KoOS

To you.

Others may see things differently.

Like as in "a construction kit for a game".

Some people see a bunch of little strips of wood and say "it's not anything".

Others say "It's a coaling tower, or a depot, or a water tank".

Mileage, vary, yours, funny old world innit.
You should go to GaryCon.  Period.

The rules can\'t cure stupid, and the rules can\'t cure asshole.
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