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GM Fiat

Started by One Horse Town, May 08, 2009, 04:47:42 AM

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Benoist

Quote from: The Worid;300846You're telling me that you've never had a bad GM in your life?
You can't have it both ways. Either a GM comes up with a bad call every once in a remote while and then I've got to wonder what makes you focus so much on that one bad call and not the rest of the game, or it happens all the time, and then I wonder why you're playing with that GM at all.

The Worid

Quote from: Benoist;300848You can't have it both ways. Either a GM comes up with a bad call every once in a remote while and then I've got to wonder what makes you focus so much on that one bad call and not the rest of the game, or it happens all the time, and then I wonder why you're playing with that GM at all.

I fail to see how that is relevant to the point I was making.
Playing: Dungeons & Dragons 2E
Running: Nothing at the moment
On Hold: Castles and Crusades, Gamma World 1E

jeff37923

Quote from: The Worid;300846You're telling me that you've never had a bad GM in your life?

Yes, I have. Several times. I don't stand around and whine about how the use of "GM fiat" made that GM bad. I just left that game and found another that suited me.

Quote from: The Worid;300846If I wanted to, I could take that as evidence that your "only experience with the subjects being discussed comes from other online discussions.". I won't, but if I had, my opinion about you would have had equivalent grounding as yours did about Gabriel2.

See, you are now confusing a bad GM with the idea that "GM fiat" is bad. The two are not the same. Gabriel2 was saying that "GM fiat" was bad, or at least "arbitrary, preferential, capricious, and unfounded". Can a bad GM use "GM fiat" as part of what makes them a bad GM? Yes. How a GM uses "GM fiat" can also define a very good GM. It is all in how it is used. "GM fiat" is a tool to achieve an end result and not the end result itself.
"Meh."

Gabriel2

Quote from: jeff37923;300855See, you are now confusing a bad GM with the idea that "GM fiat" is bad. The two are not the same. Gabriel2 was saying that "GM fiat" was bad, or at least "arbitrary, preferential, capricious, and unfounded".

"Fiat" is not a word with neutral connotation as you imply.  On these forums, a lot gets made of how language is used.  People shouldn't just be making up their own definitions willy-nilly.

Visit //www.dictionary.com and look up "fiat."
Quotean arbitrary decree or pronouncement

An arbitrary order or decree.

an authoritative but arbitrary order

Let's look up "arbitrary" too.
Quotesubject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion

having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law; despotic; tyrannical

capricious; unreasonable; unsupported

Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle

Not limited by law; despotic

Exercised according to one's own will or caprice, and therefore conveying a notion of a tendency to abuse the possession of power.

I've provided quite a few definitions to provide the recurring theme and connotation of the term.  

Fiat is "arbitrary."  Being arbitary is clearly not objective.  In fact, the entire term has extremely negative connotations.  "Unreasonable, capriciousness, tyrannical, and despotic" aren't neutral states.

I'm interpreting the word exactly as it is defined.  This is what it means.  The people who are using crazy moon language are those defending it as a positive thing.
 

The Worid

Quote from: jeff37923;300855Yes, I have. Several times. I don't stand around and whine about how the use of "GM fiat" made that GM bad. I just left that game and found another that suited me.

So, because you left, it didn't happen? Is there memory repression involved here?


Quote from: jeff37923;300855See, you are now confusing a bad GM with the idea that "GM fiat" is bad. The two are not the same. Gabriel2 was saying that "GM fiat" was bad, or at least "arbitrary, preferential, capricious, and unfounded". Can a bad GM use "GM fiat" as part of what makes them a bad GM? Yes. How a GM uses "GM fiat" can also define a very good GM. It is all in how it is used. "GM fiat" is a tool to achieve an end result and not the end result itself.

If a bad GM can use it that way, then "arbitrary, preferential, capricious, and unfounded" can be used to describe GM fiat. It doesn't mean that it is necessarily bad (it may have redeeming characteristics), it means that it can be accurately described as possessing those attributes.

By the way, nice dodge, given that I came in criticizing your unfounded accusations of not actually playing RPGs, and you've dragged me into this.
Playing: Dungeons & Dragons 2E
Running: Nothing at the moment
On Hold: Castles and Crusades, Gamma World 1E

Idinsinuation

Quote from: Gabriel2;300856I'm interpreting the word exactly as it is defined.  This is what it means.  The people who are using crazy moon language are those defending it as a positive thing.

It's all about perception.  A good GM can fiat and it doesn't bother me one bit.  Focusing too hard on the literal definition is missing the point.  Your literal definition means fuck all when we're talking about a type of game with so many different play styles enjoyed by it's many players.
"A thousand fathers killed, a thousand virgin daughters spread, with swords still wet, with swords still wet, with the blood of their dead." - Protest the Hero

Benoist

I'm not defending unreasonable, despotic, unsupported decisions on a GM's part.
I am, however, defending the common sense of letting a GM make informed judgment calls when necessary, and the fact that these judgment calls override the rules when they occur (see rules vs. GM for that).

Benoist

Quote from: The Worid;300849I fail to see how that is relevant to the point I was making.
That's actually a point I wanted to make earlier, and it just came back to my mind while reading your exchange with Jeff. Consider it as a separate point:

Either a GM comes up with a bad call every once in a remote while and then I've got to wonder what makes you focus so much on that one bad call and not the rest of the game, or it happens all the time, and then I wonder why you're playing with that GM at all.

The Worid

Quote from: Benoist;300860That's actually a point I wanted to make earlier, and it just came back to my mind while reading your exchange with Jeff. Consider it as a separate point

Ah, I see. All right then.
Playing: Dungeons & Dragons 2E
Running: Nothing at the moment
On Hold: Castles and Crusades, Gamma World 1E

jeff37923

#114
Quote from: The Worid;300857So, because you left, it didn't happen? Is there memory repression involved here?

It happened, there was no false memory syndrom, I just didn't stick around to suffer through it and then whine about the occurance afterward.



Quote from: The Worid;300857If a bad GM can use it that way, then "arbitrary, preferential, capricious, and unfounded" can be used to describe GM fiat. It doesn't mean that it is necessarily bad (it may have redeeming characteristics), it means that it can be accurately described as possessing those attributes.

But only in those limited circumstances, a tool is only as good as its user. Blaming the tool instead the user for the wrongful use of that tool is nonsensical and childish.

Quote from: The Worid;300857By the way, nice dodge, given that I came in criticizing your unfounded accusations of not actually playing RPGs, and you've dragged me into this.

Dance for me monkey! Dance!
"Meh."

jeff37923

Quote from: Gabriel2;300856"Fiat" is not a word with neutral connotation as you imply.  

This is the only thing you got right.

Quote from: Gabriel2;300856"On these forums, a lot gets made of how language is used.  People shouldn't just be making up their own definitions willy-nilly.

Visit //www.dictionary.com and look up "fiat."


Let's look up "arbitrary" too.


I've provided quite a few definitions to provide the recurring theme and connotation of the term.  

Fiat is "arbitrary."  Being arbitary is clearly not objective.  In fact, the entire term has extremely negative connotations.  "Unreasonable, capriciousness, tyrannical, and despotic" aren't neutral states.

I'm interpreting the word exactly as it is defined.  This is what it means.  The people who are using crazy moon language are those defending it as a positive thing.

That's nice.

Note how instead of giving the reader actual play examples wherin you can demonstrate that this happens in games, you have instead given definitions.

Fuck your semantics. Show me that you aren't some puddinghead who is just regurgitating a line of crap you read on some other forum.
"Meh."

The Worid

Quote from: jeff37923;300868Dance for me monkey! Dance!

No! My legs are moving against my volition! The funk is overtaking me! NOOO!!!
Playing: Dungeons & Dragons 2E
Running: Nothing at the moment
On Hold: Castles and Crusades, Gamma World 1E

jeff37923

Quote from: The Worid;300870No! My legs are moving against my volition! The funk is overtaking me! NOOO!!!

Funk? Funk?!?

Damnit, I've already showered twice today! Now I'm going to have to do it again!

:D
"Meh."

The Worid

Quote from: jeff37923;300872Funk? Funk?!?

Damnit, I've already showered twice today! Now I'm going to have to do it again!

:D

Well be happy that it overtook me, then, O Musical One.
Playing: Dungeons & Dragons 2E
Running: Nothing at the moment
On Hold: Castles and Crusades, Gamma World 1E

Seanchai

Quote from: Benoist;300804Seems to me it's a problem of trust in a human's ability to make better judgment calls than a set of rules on paper.

There's no problem. Clearly, there are times when a GM will make a better call than written rules. And, clearly, there are times when written rules will provide a better resolution.

This has nothing at all to do with trust. It has to do with perception and preference. Hence my comments about it coming down to not a series of questionable calls, but, really, a few calls that are memorable.

While some folks do prefer GM fiat, the industry and hobby have clearly moved away from such things. Even in cases where games have fewer rules, those sorts of products are increasingly providing players

Quote from: Benoist;300804I don't think a competent GM makes more flawed judgment calls than rules.

So all we have to do is find a "competent GM" every time we play. That's a tall order.

Quote from: Benoist;300804When I read the kind of stuff I quoted here, that really makes me wonder how the person who wrote this came up with this belief in the first place. It can't be just because of a bear's movement rate.

What person and what belief?

Quote from: Benoist;300804I am, however, defending the common sense of letting a GM make informed judgment calls when necessary, and the fact that these judgment calls override the rules when they occur (see rules vs. GM for that).

You don't have to defend it as that sort of thing is here to stay. As many have pointed out, the rules can never include all the situations that will come up in a game. And as a preference, it's no more defensible than a like to chocolate ice cream over strawberry ice cream.

Seanchai
"Thus tens of children were left holding the bag. And it was a bag bereft of both Hellscream and allowance money."

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