TheRPGSite

One of the entries in Zak S's Thought Eater rpg essay tournament has got stuck in my head and made me think. It's about how RPG setting information gives you a snapshot of a particular moment in time and quickly becomes obsolete as time passes in a campaign (the second one here: http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2015/09/infinity-thought-eater.html).

I think this can be a real issue with a lot of sandboxes. Often it seems like the whole world beyond the horizon is caught in amber and things only happen when the PCs stumble across them. Generally it matters very much WHERE the PCs go but not at all WHEN they go there.

And I think having when matter is important. It gives player decisions more importance and makes the setting feel alive. Some thoughts on how to do this:

Set up a future timeline for you setting: basically write out a timeline of what will happen in the world if the PCs do nothing. Pundy's written some posts about this an it's a good idea. Often setting are written up with a lot of tensions and conflicts bubbling away under the surface but without any explosions in fireworks factories going on right this minute. Screw that, in most A Song of Ice and Fire RPG material I've seen the general assumption is that things will start off at a quiet time in Westerosi history so that the PCs can get their feet under time and start with small scale problems. Screw that, start things off right at the start of one of the big wars. That way current events really matter and the decisions players make in response them mean the difference between a queen inviting them to try to tame a dragon and one torching the inn they're staying at.

Unleash mothra: the flip-side of writing up a future history is gong out of your way to let the PCs change it. After each session really think out the consequences of PC action and let those consequences flow outwards in ever-expanding ripples. Few things make a setting seem more alive than players realizing that everything going on now is a result of what they did a few sessions back. Of course this means having to go through the annoyance of updating your setting every session, so it's probably best to keep the bits of your sandbox that the PCs haven't seen yet fairly small (either geographically or in terms of details, love small sandboxes have run two short campaigns that took place entirely within a single richly-detailed six-mile hex) so keeping it moving in time isn't too much of a hassle.

Random events: hit the sandbox at large with random events, not just the bits the PCs are in right now. Noisms wrote up a good blog post about how to do this, which none of the google searches I've just tried manage to turn up. The basic idea was that you had a random events table and then randomly roll which hex in the setting gets hit by that event and do that constantly, which sounds like a good idea to me.

Cycles: a simple way to have a setting be in motion without having to change everything is to have it run in circles. A simple way to do this is keep track of phases of the moon so that you know when the werewolves come out. Similarly, have the seasons matter instead of having it always be indistinctly spring-ish and to drive this home turn the weather up to 11. Have snow banks thirty feet high, swarms of blood locusts that blacken the sky, and the burning time where wildfires race across the countryside and give some monsters bizarre seasonal life cycles, perhaps the larvae who are friendly in the spring will have their face-eating teeth by the fall. Similarly people move in cycles and to make things more interesting go beyond sticking a few holidays in the calendar. Have enormous caravans that (try to) move according to set schedules or tax collection month when the tax farmers are out in force.

The Stars are Right: for all the importance that astrology has in the material that gamers draw on for inspiration, it's surprising how little it is used in RPGs. Really want to write up an astrological system that has real effects on the game and allows players to get information based on it. Have it be simple enough so the players can figure out for themselves when the stars are right and take advantage of that.

World in motion gaming.

Been around forever. Talked about it lots on here too. Lots of us oldies like that.

Quote from: One Horse Town;856562World in motion gaming.

Been around forever. Talked about it lots on here too. Lots of us oldies like that.

Yup, am not saying anything new just throwing in some ideas. One specific thing that I haven't seen much is astrology as a way of making the world seem in motion, you'd have thought someone would've done more with tracking when the stars are right.

Also think it really helps to turn things up to 11. Easier to make the PCs care about winter when everything gets all To Build a Fire and packs of starving wolves start running into town instead of just slowing motion down a bit cause there's a few inches of snow.

Any good specific past threads about it?

Quote from: One Horse Town;856562World in motion gaming.

Been around forever. Talked about it lots on here too. Lots of us oldies like that.

So very very true.

Good news is that some of the new generation of RPGers are re-discovering it.

For me random event tables work well.

Quote from: Daztur;856564Any good specific past threads about it?

Estar had a series of threads which were pretty cool. Search estar & sandbox and you should get a few hits.

Quote from: One Horse Town;856567Estar had a series of threads which were pretty cool. Search estar & sandbox and you should get a few hits.

Many thanks.  I take a lot of random six-month hiatuses from reading RPG stuff online and those seem to have fallen through the cracked. Hitting them now.

Quote from: Omega;856565So very very true.

Good news is that some of the new generation of RPGers are re-discovering it.

I'm not that new *waves cane* The first RPG thing I ever bought was a Rules Cyclopedia.

But even though it's been around from a while it's surprising how little you see it supported in published products. The OSR hexcrawls I've seen/bought don't have any specific content to support it. Pundy's Dark Albion has a future timeline which is good but I wish there was more of that out there.

Quote from: Daztur;856558Screw that, start things off right at the start of one of the big wars. That way current events really matter and the decisions players make in response them mean the difference between a queen inviting them to try to tame a dragon and one torching the inn they're staying at.

It can be difficult to combine sandboxy freedom of action with a massive war or similar - the newbie PCs are likely to be compelled to join up and fight and you either get "Tour of Duty" if they go along with it or  "Legion of the Damned" if they don't. Big wars tend to suit linear Adventure Paths like Wrath of the Righteous. Conversely the build-up towards a big war can give a pulpy 1930s feel that works well for sandboxing.

LordVreeg, too, knows what's what. He refers to it as "world in motion." Here (http://www.therpgsite.com/search.php?searchid=537977) is a search for his posts with "motion" on it. Enjoy :)

Quote from: Daztur;856570But even though it's been around from a while it's surprising how little you see it supported in published products. The OSR hexcrawls I've seen/bought don't have any specific content to support it. Pundy's Dark Albion has a future timeline which is good but I wish there was more of that out there.

Part of it may be the OSR's collective stance against scripted adventures and in favor of events developing through PCs' actions plus honest DM judgement (possibly assisted by random tables). Any timetable for future events could potentially be construed as a "metaplot" or a "railroad", so out goes the baby with the bath water.

Still, many sandboxes do mention short- and long-term goals for the setting NPCs, and generally give a GM enough to reasonably extrapolate.

I do this all the time in my Minarian campaign. Of course, it helps that it's based on a board wargame (random event table built in!), so wars and politics come very naturally to it.

I like the astrology idea, though, Daztur.  Some means of doing it so it isn't completely random but sort-of-is and acts like a countdown clock.  Slumbering Ursine Dunes talks about a Weird meter, the astrology angle could work like that maybe.  Several scales that interact in interesting ways.

I seem to remember astrology coming up in several WFRP adventures. They had those crazy moons...

I've got a calendar and constellations and whatnot for my homebrew... but I need to set it all up better to be more manageable.
Even a little bit of background noise goes a long way towards making the world seem alive. I used to play Earthdawn with a GM who was really good at it.

Quote from: Daztur;856564Yup, am not saying anything new just throwing in some ideas. One specific thing that I haven't seen much is astrology as a way of making the world seem in motion, you'd have thought someone would've done more with tracking when the stars are right.

Well I use real calendars in Honor+Intrigue so the moon is full when the moon is, you know, full not when it may convenient (or inconvenient) for some presumed narrative or adventure hook. If I was more concerned with the stars (as opposed to the moon) I might look at the historical astronomy.

I recall a friend of mine who played in a a D&D game run by Greg Gorden (007, DC Heroes, WEG Star Wars) that used a lot of astronomy/astrology and numerology. I don't know how that worked though.

In the Questioning Chirine thread Chriine mentions that Phil Barker had something like 1500 NPCs for Tekumal and that on a real world monthly basis he went through some process to figure out what the NPCs were up to and what might have changed for those NPCs for that game month. It sounds like a good bit of bookkeeping (though some could be automated), but that does make a world in motion, not one where anywhere the PCs aren't is trapped in amber.

I prefer sandboxes that have events happening regardless of what the players are doing. I don't like events being put on hold until the players are ready to choose that quest or some similar nonsense. I'll use software to handle events happening if I need to.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;856602I'll use software to handle events happening if I need to.

Such as?

For astrology, why not give each character a birthday and star sign. Then, at the beginning of each session or series of sessions, check the newspaper's astrology section. Find a way to bring that into play.

Quote from: Simlasa;856604Such as?

Python code I've written over the years. Simulating things like space traffic. Border skirmishes (changing borders). Various patrols. Citizen/Patron travel. Merchant stock inventory and shortages. Tides/seasons/weather/meteor showers. Radio signals. Network News Broadcasts. Various visits by important people to a city coming/going. Ships arrive with trade-goods/fresh prisoners/plague.

Everything has its own schedule they follow. I have the app set at 24 hour days, divided into 5 or 10 minute chunks mostly. But I can set it for any hours per day, depending on what planet the players happen to be on.

If  you want to have a world that runs rather than sits and waits for the players, get Tony Bath's "Setting Up a Wargames Campaign," included in this:

http://www.nobleknight.com/productdetailsearch.asp_Q_ProductID_E_2147450710_A_InventoryID_E_2148234438

I don't see much point simulating NPC behaviour that can't possibly come to the notice of the players. If I'm doing events on the other continent I will only care about absolutely massive stuff, and then only if it might affect the PCs. The closer I get to the PCs the more detail I'll go into. But I don't much like the idea of a clockwork world.

Last night in my sandbox, the travel-weary PCs approached the village of Bratanis. There was a long building friction there between the Lady Aeschela and her lieutenant, the Weaponmaster Ruggio. I rolled a d6 to see if Ruggio had finally overthrown Aeschela and made himself Lord, 1-3 'yes'. I rolled a 3, and events proceeded from there. I didn't see any need to make the Schrodinger determination prior to the PCs getting there.

Other things may be on a timetable in-world, eg it's known that as the rainy season ends in M3 (it's early M2 now) an undead army of Neo-Nerath will be coming over the mountains to Hara. That will presumably happen unless the PCs or something else big stops it.

In general, stuff immediately around the PCs I'm looking at daily/weekly on a small scale, further away monthly & on a larger scale (eg Hara & the undead army), further still yearly and larger still (what are the Red Reavers of Grimalon up to) and even decadal (how are the Invincible Overlord and Green Emperor doing). This gives reasonable economy of effort - if my game's not set in the CSIO I may only be thinking about the CSIO every year or so of real-time. Most of it can be updated if/when the PCs go there, and yes a lot of it can be used frozen-time, NPC X is the way they are in the book whenever the PCs first meet X. My Karameikos game is 20 years in (1020 AC from 1000 AC start), major NPCs get aged 20 years (and some die of old age) but some I'll just change their backstory to be 20 years younger.

Vreeg and I talked about World in Motion a lot. (Vreeg came up with the term).

The basic gist is that it is a plan similar to a plan of battle. The plan is a writeup of the future of the setting without PCs doing anything. And like what a good general does with a battle plan during a conflict, once the PCs the plan gets altered.

Doing this helps because it organized and disciplines your thoughts when deciding the complications and consequences that arise from the PC's action. There can be future event that the PCs can't do nothing about (for example a natural earthquake). However in practice, it best to use those sparely.

Where things differ between referee is how that plan gets form and what goes into. There is no right answers as it is an aide specifically for that referee designed to be quickly referenced during play. And what format and content works is highly subjective.

I personally am a fan of alternate history and read a lot over on the alternate history forums (http://www.alternatehistory.com). The best alternate timelines are those that follow plausibly from event to event starting with a single point of a departure from our reality. Now plausibly doesn't mean probably although too many improbable consequences one after another can make for a poor timeline.

So incorporating random tables, astrology are all elements that could be used effectively to create a possible future timeline.

For incorporating Astrology, I would look at the techniques that fortune-tellers uses. When used effectively it makes the players think that the referee actually predicted the future however it leaves enough wiggle room so that their choices still matter.

Random tables are good because when creating content (whether for an adventure or a future timeline) most people I feel have a dozen good ideas and then have to really work at it to get the rest done. I found I can write and prepare much faster if I generate the rest using the appropriate random tables. Use the result as a idea generator and a skeleton to flesh things out. With the idea that if I get another idea that I throw out the result and substitute it instead. Or throw out any whacked out result and replace it.

For example one time when I was filling up a level of my megadungeon, the Majestic Wilderlands. I rolled up in three adjacent rooms, Giant Scorpions, Dwarves, and Evil Sorcerors.

What I decided that those rooms where the abode of Evil Sorcerors that captured dwarves and were doing magical experiments to turn them into Giant Scorpions.

I thought that was just OK but later when the player ran into afterward they said that was one of the creepiest parts of the level.

Quote from: S'mon;856650I don't see much point simulating NPC behaviour that can't possibly come to the notice of the players. If I'm doing events on the other continent I will only care about absolutely massive stuff, and then only if it might affect the PCs. The closer I get to the PCs the more detail I'll go into. But I don't much like the idea of a clockwork world.

A butterfly flaps its wings in Brazil and a tornado hits a home in Kansas several weeks later.

The saying as trite as it sounds is basically true. The cause for events could come from anywhere. So even if the player will never met the individuals or visit the locale that causes the event. It may be important for you the referee to understand the origins of the event that the PCs actually does get involved in.

Your general concept is correct. The specifics of "another continent" and "hidden stuff" is not. The referee should understand everything that causes events and effect the behavior of NPCs so that when it comes time to roleplay he has a full picture of why the NPCs act the way they do.

For example in our history a combination of the politics of the steppe tribes and climate changes in the center of Asia are the ultimate origins of the great migrations and invasions from the east to Europe. European will see any of that but those events shape the circumstances of the invading horde and more important how the NPCs the PCs interact behave.

So my advice is to figure out why NPCs is behave the way they do, figure out why locales are what they are even if they are "hidden". Then anything outside of that is what you can leave out.

Quote from: S'mon;856650Last night in my sandbox, the travel-weary PCs approached the village of Bratanis. There was a long building friction there between the Lady Aeschela and her lieutenant, the Weaponmaster Ruggio. I rolled a d6 to see if Ruggio had finally overthrown Aeschela and made himself Lord, 1-3 'yes'. I rolled a 3, and events proceeded from there. I didn't see any need to make the Schrodinger determination prior to the PCs getting there.

In my view in the end the referee managing a tabletop campaign is not a computer capable of storing and retrieving vast stores of information. A sandbox campaign is the ultimate test as it's focus is for the referee to handle the character wherever their players have them go or do.

A sandbox referee does need to keep a certain amount of details in his head. Beyond that the referee should do exactly what you do. Use random tables, charts, or whatever to come up with a fair way of determine the circumstances of the locale and the behavior of the NPCs.

Nobody I know of who advocate Sandbox campaign are advising that you have to details everything to the Nth detail. If you want too fine. A handful have done that successfully like M.A.R. Barker and his 1,500 NPCs of Tekemul. But most people don't have the time and more importantly the interest to do that. Nor it is essential to a successful sandbox campaign. So in that I am in agreement with you.

What I am not in agreement is to be dismissive of people who want to do attempt to managed 1,500 NPCs. I guess it is due in part in me being a classic Traveller fan and the fact that many of its subsystem can be used as solo mini-games. I don't look down on people who like to generate sector after sector or like to debate the intricacies of the Third Imperium.

Especially in light that an anal-tentative attention to detail can produce some really useful stuff from time to time like the Harnworld articles or the Traveller Map (http://www.travellermap.com/).

Quote from: S'mon;856650In general, stuff immediately around the PCs I'm looking at daily/weekly on a small scale, further away monthly & on a larger scale (eg Hara & the undead army), further still yearly and larger still (what are the Red Reavers of Grimalon up to) and even decadal (how are the Invincible Overlord and Green Emperor doing).

I found that scale doesn't matter. For me the focus of a RPG campaign is the player interacting with the setting as their character. What do they interact with? Locales and NPCs (including monsters). So what I found that works is to focus on why the Locale is the way it is, and why does the NPC behave the way it does. Anything outside of that, I relegate to the things I do outside of campaign prep. I also found, that I can't predict what will be important in determine the why of a locale of NPCs. Sometimes it all local, sometime it global event. I will say in general local circumstances plausibly connect more often than global. But that not always the case.

Quote from: Daztur;856570But even though it's been around from a while it's surprising how little you see it supported in published products. The OSR hexcrawls I've seen/bought don't have any specific content to support it. Pundy's Dark Albion has a future timeline which is good but I wish there was more of that out there.

Might want to take a look at some Sine Nomine publications.  (Stars Without Number is the best-known, and has a free version for download, but all of them are good for this sort of thing.)  All of the core games include some form of factional or other higher-level meta-game to provide a structured way of keeping events moving in the sandbox independently of the PCs.  Set up a half-dozen or so factions when you start the campaign, and then play out a faction turn (shouldn't take more than five minutes or so per faction) after each game session or once a game-month or whatever to determine world events.

It works very well for me, but, then, I'm allergic to "future timelines" or anything else that smells like prewritten plots, however faint that smell might be.

You may want to take a look at Apocalipse World and its hacks. Even if you're not into lighter/narrative RPGs, they are built as sandboxes from the get go and feature some nice tools for doing exactly what you're talking here.

 E.g: they use "countdown clocks" to track future events that will trigger if some factions and entities are left alone by the PCs. So, the local bandits' guild may have 1. Take out the competition, 2. Monopolize local drug market, and 3. Turn city into a drug infested den. The PCs can choose to intervene to deny this, or even help it out to take advantage of the situation (assuming the GM foreshadows these events in some way, which is also valid).

By the way, Blades in the Dark is coming out this year and will feat lots of good ideas related to this.

Even as teenage GM's in the 80's, we had events happening in our game worlds that had calendar dates, and happened then and there regardless of where the PCs were, unless the PCs actually intervened. Information about the more major events would also spread around appropriately. This was kind of an "of course this is how it works - stuff happens in our worlds" assumption rather than thinking it was anything special.

It developed as we got better at GM'ing, our worlds got more developed, and our tastes more complex. We used rules from wargames (I used Avalon Hill's system from Alesia), creating counters and army rosters for the armies in the game and playing out their battles when they happened, and recording the results and altering the maps as appropriate.

It did get to be a fair amount of work to generate history in advance and record it, especially as our game worlds got quite large. However we did that because we were into it. It is also possible to just look at the map and map notes and decide what's going on in regions, and decide that some regions that are distant from the players aren't really impacting much where the current action is, and so can be declared to be maintaining their status quo.

Some content can also be designed to be in a certain state when the players get there, as long as it's compatible with other events going on in the campaign (i.e. (not impacting or impacted by them) .

Quote from: estar;856668What I am not in agreement is to be dismissive of people who want to do attempt to managed 1,500 NPCs. I guess it is due in part in me being a classic Traveller fan and the fact that many of its subsystem can be used as solo mini-games. I don't look down on people who like to generate sector after sector or like to debate the intricacies of the Third Imperium.

I guess I'm a little bit dismissive because I used to be that sort of GM, who generated vast reams of material for its own sake, and eventually found that this was hurting the actual game at the table. Every detail I pre-determine takes away an opportunity to make it differently - and sometimes different would be better, but I can't know what would be best for the game. I don't have infinite inspiration; if fix too much too soon I am destroying possibilities. My current Ghinarian Hills setting is working brilliantly, but only because I detailed one or two locations at a time, over months, as inspiration came to me - and am still doing so. If I had tried to detail everything up front rather than incrementally it would be a much much weaker setting.

Just by way of curiosity, does anyone have one of those random regional events tables bookmarked?  (As in online, free.)

Quote from: S'mon;856687I guess I'm a little bit dismissive because I used to be that sort of GM, who generated vast reams of material for its own sake, and eventually found that this was hurting the actual game at the table. Every detail I pre-determine takes away an opportunity to make it differently - and sometimes different would be better, but I can't know what would be best for the game. I don't have infinite inspiration; if fix too much too soon I am destroying possibilities. My current Ghinarian Hills setting is working brilliantly, but only because I detailed one or two locations at a time, over months, as inspiration came to me - and am still doing so. If I had tried to detail everything up front rather than incrementally it would be a much much weaker setting.

There is no one right approach here. Some GMs find it helpful to work out these kinds of background details, others find it an interference. For me it is more handy to have that kind of information on hand for a variety of reasons. Even things that don't directly affect the players can come up in play, and I am more at ease as a GM when I've established these sorts of details in advance. They could come up peripherally (when players inquire about events in a distant capital for example) or they could come up directly (when players arrive in a town and decide to do some digging to find opportunities for wealth or whatnot).

That said, I don't think one can detail everything in advance. I look at a campaign as a skeleton, and I add meat on as I need it. If the players are in a given zone, I know I need a lot of meat there. But if there is a major capital well outside that zone that I know is important to the setting I am going to think about what is going on there. I won't map out every town, village and countryside until I feel it is needed but I will think of things like major events and political situations, trade networks, ongoing crisis and problems that can affect surrounding areas. When you do that over a long enough time, you end up with a pretty detailed world.

One thing I do now for things like future timelines is I always use a calendar in my campaign notebook and mark passage of time. I also use this to mark down future events. Most of these events are related to PC things (I.E. a player sent a spy to the Green Pagoda and I write down when he gets there, what he learns and when he reports back so I don't forget). I used to use a preplanned campaign timeline for world events. Now I use random tables and just roll once a month to see if anything significant occurs.

Quote from: One Horse Town;856562World in motion gaming.

Been around forever. Talked about it lots on here too. Lots of us oldies like that.

Yah; it kind of drove my players up the wall when they'd leave the "Castle Delve" megadungeon for a month to heal, level, learn new spells etc. then come back and find out that the bandits on the 1st level had hired new recruits, built new traps, secured the old entries, etc.

I pointed out that Roman Legions built entire fortresses in a single night when they were on the march as "camps", so "Aw how did the gnolls build up a whole palisade fort, we were only gone for three and a half weeks!" doesn't really reach my ears. :)

There is no such thing as over preparation, as long as the GM is willing to have his little machinations and plans crushed and changed at a heartbeat.    Helmuth Von Moltke is normally attributed with, " No battleplan survives contact with the enemy", and it is a truism in GMing, as well.  Your carefully detailed set pieces and intricate NPC relationships may end up somewhere you would never expect once the set piece goes live.

"Vreeg's Third Rule of Setting Design,
"The World In Motion is critical for Immersion, so create 'event chains' that happen at all levels of setting design. The players need to feel like things are happening and will happen with or without them. They need to feel like they can affect the outcome, but that these events have weight of their own. Event-chains need velocity, not just speed.
Cause and effect from an event-chain cements the feeling of setting-weight and the march of time to the players. It's not enough to have an election in a town, the effect of that election must be there when the players return to that town.  It is not enough that a band of trolls and giants is spotted, what devestation due they cauase and what actions do the locals take, and from there what wreckage and ruin?"
 
First Corrollary of the Third Rule
"It is the interesting task of the GM to create a feel in the world that everything, every event-chain,  is happening around the PCs without the least concern whether the PCs join or not, while in reality making sure the game and these event chains are actually predicated on PC volition.  The setting consistency should never be compromised, and a good GM should be able to keep both setting and PC needs logical at the same time "

As Estar mentions, this is true at every level. I enjoy creating a lot of detail and information, as it invariably makes my understanding of the setting more concrete and real, so the constant GM extrapolation makes more logical sense.  It doesn't mean the PCs don't mess

I also like the term 'story arcs', with macro arcs, mid arcs, and micro arcs layered beneath them. So many adventures are written around those, as well as the motivations on my NPCS.  

But again, you must be willing to rip out the threads and re-skein it (My god, I actually said that) as a GM who writes out all the deep and long intricate past and current and future.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;856698Yah; it kind of drove my players up the wall when they'd leave the "Castle Delve" megadungeon for a month to heal, level, learn new spells etc. then come back and find out that the bandits on the 1st level had hired new recruits, built new traps, secured the old entries, etc.

I pointed out that Roman Legions built entire fortresses in a single night when they were on the march as "camps", so "Aw how did the gnolls build up a whole palisade fort, we were only gone for three and a half weeks!" doesn't really reach my ears. :)

Oh, yes.  
This is why my PCs hate leaving and hate staying...

Quote from: Ravenswing;856690Just by way of curiosity, does anyone have one of those random regional events tables bookmarked?  (As in online, free.)

As to that, just after posting this, I started to compile my own, based around significant possibilities that came to mind.  I'll post them anon, and see what others can add to them.

Quote from: S'mon;856687I guess I'm a little bit dismissive because I used to be that sort of GM, who generated vast reams of material for its own sake, and eventually found that this was hurting the actual game at the table. Every detail I pre-determine takes away an opportunity to make it differently - and sometimes different would be better, but I can't know what would be best for the game. I don't have infinite inspiration; if fix too much too soon I am destroying possibilities. My current Ghinarian Hills setting is working brilliantly, but only because I detailed one or two locations at a time, over months, as inspiration came to me - and am still doing so. If I had tried to detail everything up front rather than incrementally it would be a much much weaker setting.

This is very important advice. Do not over-prep, or you may end up 1) seeing most of your prep going to the trash bin as the players pick different places and routes to follow, and 2) you may end up forcing the players through your prep in a subcounscious way. Both alternatives are bad, in my opinion.

Quote from: Ravenswing;856714As to that, just after posting this, I started to compile my own, based around significant possibilities that came to mind.  I'll post them anon, and see what others can add to them.

noisms wrote up one on his Monsters and Manuals blogs, but I just can't seem to find it no matter what keyword I use.

Great thread, am enjoying the responses greatly and have started to dig through some of the old threads mentioned by people here.

The faction-level game in the Sine Nomine products sounds great and I've been a member of alternate history.com for years so I know that well, great stuff there especially the Disney presidency timeline.

The only hard part of a lot of this is if the world is changing enough then setting canon is getting constantly replaced which could be a big pain to keep up to date. Probably the easiest way to deal with this is to keep the sandbox restricted either in size or amount of information. I think it'd also help to have a setting that you know really well, for example in a campaign set in Westeros at the start of the War of the Five kings I'd be able to track the consequences of a lot of PC action but with the Forgotten Realms I'd have a hard time knowing where to start.

One reason I mentioned cyclical events is if things run in circles you can prep them out once and then leave them be. For example having things like lunar cycles, seasons or even things like the fiscal year (having something like the devşirme be exacted at a certain time each year) matter a lot makes time matter without requiring much prep once things are already set in motion. Making these things more extreme than on Earth could also serve to get more attention from the PCs.

Changing gears, when I talked about astrology in the OP I didn't mean so much fortune telling but rather the constant cycling of the heavens having an effect on the world weather anybody's looking at the stars or no. For example certain spells only being able to be cast during certain alignments.

One astrology system I sketched out with a friend went like this:

There are twelve gods/signs of the setting, each corresponding to a month of the year (and one of the twelve face cards in a pack of cards) plus a Janus-faced "joker" god of life and death who'd sometimes be the thirteenth month (as with a lunar calendar you sometimes need a thirteenth month as twelve lunar months don't add up to one solar year).

Each day of the (long) week would also correspond to a god, as would each year, each "cycle" of 14 years (12 normal years plus two years of the two faces of the joker god), each "era" of 196 years, etc. etc.

Things that relate to each god would be favorable on that god's day and this would be increased if the days/months/years/etc. lined up.

Quote from: Daztur;856716Changing gears, when I talked about astrology in the OP I didn't mean so much fortune telling but rather the constant cycling of the heavens having an effect on the world weather anybody's looking at the stars or no. For example certain spells only being able to be cast during certain alignments.

I think that first edition Chivalry & Sorcery used astrology in that and a few other ways.

QuoteOne astrology system I sketched out with a friend went like this:

I can see where you could do something with this. Maybe even tie certain natural disasters or benefices to the cycles. So earthquakes occur during Poseidon's year and week and punishing storms during Zeus'.

Seasons and weeks in Glorantha work like that.

Quote from: Daztur;856716Great thread, am enjoying the responses greatly and have started to dig through some of the old threads mentioned by people here.

Were you using something like cyclical events in the dwarf fortress game? Or planning on it?

It's a good rule because it forces players to approach time as a resource.
Suddenly, rules about week long recovery or crafting time make a bit more sense.

Quote from: Bren;856762I can see where you could do something with this. Maybe even tie certain natural disasters or benefices to the cycles. So earthquakes occur during Poseidon's year and week and punishing storms during Zeus'.

Seasons and weeks in Glorantha work like that.

Yeah real world astrology is pretty damn opaque so the idea was to make something really simple and transparent so players would actually use it as in "you went uo the mountain during the first Zeusday of Zeusmonth of Zeusyear and you`re SURPRIZED you got hit by lightning? You idiot."

Also the idea was to give people corresponding birth signs. Was thinking of have one culture literally tattoo people`s birth signs on their foreheads and have them function as fairly restrictive castes but that`s probably going to far.

Cavebear: not really, the setting of that campaign was a single 6 mile hex so I could easily just keep track of everything. I did have three d30 tables of random events (one for weather, one for outside NPCs and one for fortress events) as well as an extended dwarf NPC downtime morale table that covered them going crazy if they didn`t have good lives and other wacky stuff.

Also for some reason EVERY time I put in goblin NPCs the PCs always end up allying with them. It never fails.

Quote from: Itachi;856715This is very important advice. Do not over-prep, or you may end up 1) seeing most of your prep going to the trash bin as the players pick different places and routes to follow, and 2) you may end up forcing the players through your prep in a subcounscious way. Both alternatives are bad, in my opinion.

Getting back on topic, this is a good reason not to have a detailed future timeline - either it gets wasted (#1) or you railroad players through it (#2). Random but judicious event determination works much much better IME, as in my "3 in 6 chance of a coup here" example.

Random event tables can be used, but I haven't done so much recently (except wandering monster charts and rolling for the weather). Generally I find the Free Kriegsspiel approach of thinking what might happen, set a probability on d6, and roll for it, gives the best combination of random & adjudicated.

Quote from: S'mon;856778Getting back on topic, this is a good reason not to have a detailed future timeline - either it gets wasted (#1) or you railroad players through it (#2).

I find a real timeline works even better and it already contains far more detail that I could ever invent or keep track of and manage. But I have the advantage of playing two games that are mostly actual history. And I like creating things and don't mind if they never get seen by the players. Mileage on both of those aspects varies.

And equally clear from threads like this is the fact that creation for the joy of creating is not something every one shares.

If your prep or historical events are useless unless the players do X, or visit Y at Z time, then the prep sounds like it wasn't particularly appropriate prep for a sandbox campaign.

I rarely prep anything that don't either enjoy doing even if it doesn't get directly used by the players, or it is useful in other ways or can be used at some point anyway. I prepare locations with the expectation that they may be adjusted by the actual circumstances at the time the players arrive. I prepare NPCs that are either useful to know what they're like even if the PC's never meet them, or NPCs who will provide details for people whom the PCs do at some point interact with, but aren't tied down to a specific place/time/circumstance. I also have some generic NPC types which can be the "first face" of typical types of people, if the PCs just interact with someone briefly and then quickly move on. E.g. Man Of The Crowd, Typical Dranning City Guard, Merchant's Guild Clerk, Butcher, etc.

I'm certainly not going to prep the kind of thing I see in many published games where it says something like "As soon as the players get to the bridge, a messenger rides up with news that Duke Findlefutt is coming to attend the tourney in Bloodnettle Fields... and just at this moment, there happens to be... [contrived coincidence now linked to PC travel, requiring major politicians to appear at same location]."

For example, if I playing out a battle that the players will not see, it's probably because I enjoy doing that or I want to see the actual results without deciding what it is by fiat. If the players are there and participate, I may need to replay it anyway, so I'd never play it out if I was doing it with the expectation they'd show up and watch but not participate, and/or if I wasn't getting something out of it. Part of what I enjoy about running a sandbox game is that it's a game universe where things happen for consistent reasons, and one system I enjoy having be an actual system (not just something I invent and control by my direct imagination), where the military situation is actually at play. I.e. I'm not just bullshitting that that castle has walls and towers and a map layout, and that the army has certain number, quality, morale, equipment, and location - there's a wargame that gives those details actual effects. This means it can actually be somewhat relevant to listen to the descriptions, and not just to try to predict what the GM is going to force to happen with his imagination.

So, while I get the suggestion that over-prep may be wasted, and that if you don't prep, then you are more free to ad-lib interesting things during play, I would say that doing so is a different sort of sandbox than I run. If the GM is going to decide that things exist or are a certain way during play, based on what happens during play, then that's a world where things are called into existence at that time because they seem interesting or it seems like they'll make a more fun session, then it's a sandbox where the cause & effect going on is a metaphysical force for fun and interesting stuff, which is ok/cool and I do that too to some degree, but a different sort of thing than what I generally like to do.

Apart from just liking to geek out with a massive game world, I do find it helps to actually develop to some degree what's going on in the world, because (I have had very curious analytical-minded players and) it _helps_ me develop more and more content, and content that makes sense, because it gives context which eventually means I have a sense of understanding my world and what's happening, so I can generate and infer content details much more easily than if I hadn't, and more importantly (to me) the content I come up with (either in advance or on the fly) will tend to make far more sense and be internally consistent, compared to what I'd come up with if I had little idea of what existed and what was going on.

Of course I started out preparing very little, and even using maps and settings published by others. Even though what I started with was actually remarkably logical and geared to a sense-making sandbox (Metagaming's In the Labyrinth and Tollenkar's Lair), because I was inexperienced and hadn't fully digested all of it, I didn't fully understand much about the world and what was going on, and I made stuff up for fun, and that was how I approached making new maps, with the result that I started having more and more things in my game world that didn't make a lot of sense, and then trying to invent more stuff consistent with that, even though it wasn't very well thought out, which was a bit annoying to me. I much prefer to have thought _enough_ about what's going on and what exists and so on, that I'm far less likely to include things that don't make sense.

Quote from: Daztur;856771Also for some reason EVERY time I put in goblin NPCs the PCs always end up allying with them. It never fails.

Well, your goblins are adorable. I liked the tree-affinity your goblins had.
You should just make goblins a player-character race. Make gnomes the bad guys instead. Nobody likes gnomes.

Quote from: Cave Bear;856803Well, your goblins are adorable. I liked the tree-affinity your goblins had.
You should just make goblins a player-character race. Make gnomes the bad guys instead. Nobody likes gnomes.

Especially Gnobody, Lord of the  Gnefarious Gnecromancer Gnomes.

Much closer to Skarg's viewpoint.

I overprep gratuitously.  For my own head and for for the campaign.  Especially in the big, complex, long term game, this makes it all hang together better and infuses the game with more internal logic.  Even when I end up writing something and not using it, it still adds onto the logical infrastructure of the setting.


Run your games the way you want, have fun the way you want,  but I know one of the reasons my games seem to go on and on.  If you build it, they will come.

Quote from: LordVreeg;856832Much closer to Skarg's viewpoint.

I overprep gratuitously.  For my own head and for for the campaign.  Especially in the big, complex, long term game, this makes it all hang together better and infuses the game with more internal logic.  Even when I end up writing something and not using it, it still adds onto the logical infrastructure of the setting.


Run your games the way you want, have fun the way you want,  but I know one of the reasons my games seem to go on and on.  If you build it, they will come.

Also prep like that can come into play down the road. If I have the time and interest in working on something, then I will happily do so. Sometimes it is stuff that will directly affect play, sometimes it never comes up, sometimes it comes up later on either directly or just as background. It almost always helps contribute a sense of depth to the setting. Even if the players don't see the material itself, somehow for me as a GM, knowing about it, helps me visualize the setting as a more complete thing. This ultimately helps me with stuff like ad libbing and managing unexpected events on the fly.

"Generally it matters very much WHERE the PCs go but not at all WHEN they go there."

If that's how it is in your neighborhood, might it be at least in part because generally "the PCs" are a monolithic group? What's over the event horizon to one is so to all, effectively just the GM playing with himself?

This is one of those things that's much less an issue when you have the kind of multi-player, multi-character, multi-axis game originally played.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;856836Also prep like that can come into play down the road. If I have the time and interest in working on something, then I will happily do so. Sometimes it is stuff that will directly affect play, sometimes it never comes up, sometimes it comes up later on either directly or just as background. It almost always helps contribute a sense of depth to the setting. Even if the players don't see the material itself, somehow for me as a GM, knowing about it, helps me visualize the setting as a more complete thing. This ultimately helps me with stuff like ad libbing and managing unexpected events on the fly.

Indeed.
Started this a while back (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/14955667/Index).  

Do the same thing with the timelines.  It is so helpful in the framework building , in terms of, as you said, seeing it as a complete thing.  I have a session tonight where the PCs are in a basement of a castle and finding items and ruins from a separate area history, but one that they know, as there was a three way partnership that I created years and years ago that the PCs only partially found out about.  now they get to add onto it, since I have all the stuff that puts it together.

There's the matter of purpose. I'm not making up stuff so I can tell my friends, "Oh, this and that happened in my imagination alone, and it would have been a great adventure, but you missed it."

At least Robilar -- one player more than zero -- had some fun in the Temple of Elemental Evil, but Gary apparently had intended it to be fun for a lot of other players.

If none of the players have encountered it, then the sign reading 'Child Run', the rumor of treasure in Hoak, etc., might as well still be the way to the same interesting situation.

I will add that if you use the same setting for your campaigns over a long enough time the situation is no different than the referee who preps a lot of detail for a single campaign.

So the issues of what the players see and don't see are going to have to handled by a referee at some point regardless. This observation doesn't mean that you have to do at all upfront. Different people think differently; one referee works better if it build up incrementally over time. Another will want a framework already built to help him. Regardless of the approach after X years both style wind up in the same place if the same setting is used again over many campaigns and many groups.

Quote from: Phillip;856837"Generally it matters very much WHERE the PCs go but not at all WHEN they go there."

If that's how it is in your neighborhood, might it be at least in part because generally "the PCs" are a monolithic group? What's over the event horizon to one is so to all, effectively just the GM playing with himself?

This is one of those things that's much less an issue when you have the kind of multi-player, multi-character, multi-axis game originally played.

This.  This this this this this this this.

When Robilar is 12th level, Erac and Tenser are 8th level, and Gronan is 5th level, you're going to be covering a LOT of different ground.

Also, Rob loved city politics and intrigue, Ernie wanted loot and magic, and I wanted to explore and be heroic.  Likewise, this gives you a lot of different things going on.

Quote from: estar;856852I will add that if you use the same setting for your campaigns over a long enough time the situation is no different than the referee who preps a lot of detail for a single campaign.

So the issues of what the players see and don't see are going to have to handled by a referee at some point regardless. This observation doesn't mean that you have to do at all upfront. Different people think differently; one referee works better if it build up incrementally over time. Another will want a framework already built to help him. Regardless of the approach after X years both style wind up in the same place if the same setting is used again over many campaigns and many groups.

My current Wilderlands/Altanis campaign has about five years of relevant play behind it now (from past campaigns in same/nearby areas - the current one started 2015), it definitely means there's a lot of detail, but I think it's a bit different sort of detail from what pre-designed stuff would look like.

Rather than building a timeline, I think it's better to just give major NPC and factions strong motivations at the start. Decide what they are doing now. During a session, look for ways they might react to the PCs actions if they are helping or hindering them in some way, or simply making a lot of noise.

Between sessions, go back and revise what NPCs are up to. Maybe even revise their motivations based on events of the last session. Look for ways that NPC can be interacting with each other as well.

It's basically building a timeline, but doing it only a week ahead, so you don't limit yourself.

Quote from: Baulderstone;857015Rather than building a timeline, I think it's better to just give major NPC and factions strong motivations at the start. Decide what they are doing now. During a session, look for ways they might react to the PCs actions if they are helping or hindering them in some way, or simply making a lot of noise.

Between sessions, go back and revise what NPCs are up to. Maybe even revise their motivations based on events of the last session. Look for ways that NPC can be interacting with each other as well.

It's basically building a timeline, but doing it only a week ahead, so you don't limit yourself.

I think this works really well. Usually I do timelines for things that haven't been directly involved in sessions (so maybe events in a neighboring kingdom). With any timeline, there is a danger of being enslaved to it. If you plan a year in advance, a lot could happen that might change those events. Generally I do my timelines month to month. So I do what you say with my npcs, but I roll for "big events and historical turning points" on a table each month. Historical turning points are rare though on the tables, so they don't usually come up. Mostly it is stuff like, the emergence of a new social ill somewhere, a city being rampaged by soldiers or a monster, or the spread of a new form of entertainment.

Agree that knowing an NPCs motives and goals is key. That pretty much gives you what you need to play out things. Sometimes though I do need to consruct a likely timeline in my campaign calendar. For example if I have an NPC putting several pieces of a plan into motion, I find it handy to jot down when and where those things develop.

Quote from: Baulderstone;857015It's basically building a timeline, but doing it only a week ahead, so you don't limit yourself.

There is nothing magical about a week, month, year, centuries, or spur of the moment. Your initial advice is sound however my recommend do what is needed and what your interest allows no more or no less.

The big issue in my view is that World in Motion has a steep learning curve. Experience counts by at least an order of magnitude. The trick is for those of who are experienced to explain things in a way so that a novice benefits.

Putting hard limits like a "week" doesn't address issues facing the novice sandbox referee. What I found more useful is to advice come up with three or five bullet points about each locale and NPCs. Try confining yourself within a constrained environment at first and have no more than a dozen elements (NPCS, locales, factions, etc) at first. A dungeon is great for this. Figure out how they interconnect, figure out their near future if no PCs were around.

Anything that germane if it involves how the locales are presented or how the NPC behave.

To fill in gaps, develop a Bag of Stuff. A set of generic templates in your head that you can extrapolate quickly consistent detail for when the party does something unexpected. For example I have an image of how the average peasant hut looks in the Majestic Wilderlands and along with a handful of options that I apply to make a hut in Viridistan different than a hut in City-State.

Luckily there is minimal learning curve to this as our culture is bathed in fantasy and heroic tropes. The key is not to think of how something ought to be at first but how you think it is. Whatever stereotype or image that in your head right now about what a peasant hut looks like is the correct one. Then later as you have gained more experience and more comfortable with juggling the management of a sandbox campaign then think about how things ought to be.

The same applies to World in Motion. When starting out use the first thing you  think about how an NPC should act. The only hard and fast rule is to be honest with yourself and be willing to change your conceptions in light of your player's reactions.

As for making Astrology important, I tried a bit of that for my retake on Maztica (in the Development forum). However I wanted to focus on the At-Play aspect first, so Astrology was more of a worship modifier for when making talismans. And Astrology as a Priest Non-Weapon Proficiency was integrated as a skill that interlocked with the Warrior and Rogue advantages, so all the classes needed each other.

Basically the cosmology was tied to alignment (canon), which was tied to astrology (non-canon), which was tied to cyclical nature of the world (sorta canon), which was tied to the cultural tension of proselytizing expansion and occult mysteries (non-canon).

TL;DR To make more magic goodies, one had to play up one's part of society. That means giving deference to the cyclical nature of the gods' power on the True World, which was read in astrology.
-------------------------

If I were to go further about Astrology, besides selling a variety of calendars and trading favors among professionals, I would sprinkle in major events. Since Maztican magic lacked much divination I would defer that to astrology as well. Could be a hoot having PCs buy horoscopes before adventures and try to scry divine meaning from it.

Kindred of the East tried to tap heavily into occult, astrology, and horoscopes if I remember correctly. Dragonlance "Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home" had quite a bit about their complex astrology, but I don't remember them doing as much gamewise with it. I'd have to double check my collection who else dabbles in astrology as a game thing.

Quote from: estar;856852I will add that if you use the same setting for your campaigns over a long enough time the situation is no different than the referee who preps a lot of detail for a single campaign.

So the issues of what the players see and don't see are going to have to handled by a referee at some point regardless. This observation doesn't mean that you have to do at all upfront. Different people think differently; one referee works better if it build up incrementally over time. Another will want a framework already built to help him. Regardless of the approach after X years both style wind up in the same place if the same setting is used again over many campaigns and many groups.

Plus, it's easy to come up with new adventuring hooks; simply drop the new group in the aftermath of whatever the previous group did.

Quote from: Cave Bear;857077Plus, it's easy to come up with new adventuring hooks; simply drop the new group in the aftermath of whatever the previous group did.

Works best when the old group screwed up really badly. :D

Quote from: Baulderstone;857015Rather than building a timeline, I think it's better to just give major NPC and factions strong motivations at the start. Decide what they are doing now. During a session, look for ways they might react to the PCs actions if they are helping or hindering them in some way, or simply making a lot of noise.

Between sessions, go back and revise what NPCs are up to. Maybe even revise their motivations based on events of the last session. Look for ways that NPC can be interacting with each other as well.

It's basically building a timeline, but doing it only a week ahead, so you don't limit yourself.

Arg.
I don't mind the ideas, and hey, factional goals and plans are always a great way to start, but interactions need to be better understood from a large perspective.  

National/political level stuff moves at a different pace.  And to keep things consistent, a lot of it has to be mapped, at least in pencil, further in advance.    I mean, travel is a *little* faster in my world on average than many earlier historical periods, but in general, it takes time, as does much communication.  And this slows events.  Money, also, does not move as fast, which affects larger events.  
Much of my more powerful magics take days or weeks to cast, spell ability comes back slower in our games, and some of the more powerful adversaries are involved in searches for legendary items.  And sometimes they wait for times when the sphere's are in more advantageous positions to cast a spell.

I have to plot these moving parts on the future calendars as well.  The future timeline is critical for me as a GM, in keeping a logical, consistent, and Present-to-the-players framework.

Quote from: LordVreeg;857148I don't mind the ideas, and hey, factional goals and plans are always a great way to start, but interactions need to be better understood from a large perspective.

"This is happening" vs. "this will happen" is less a matter of a smaller perspective than it is of a different one.

Quote from: LordVreeg;857148National/political level stuff moves at a different pace.  And to keep things consistent, a lot of it has to be mapped, at least in pencil, further in advance.

Not really, no.

I make note that "the ambassador left today to negotiate with FarAwaynia", then track his progress until he arrives, then randomly determine the course of the talks as they take place until an accord is reached three months later.  You instead write a future timeline which says "in three months, this treaty will be signed" and then, presumably, backfill the in-process events which lead up to it.  The events end up progressing at the same rate either way.  Both of our players' characters can go to visit the ambassador during those three months and be told that he's on a mission to FarAwaynia.  It's the same end result either way.  The only difference is in how you get there.

Well, ok, that's not quite true.  I feel that my way allows more opportunity for things to be derailed in ways that surprise me, because I insert random factors at every step along the way, which I assume you probably don't.  In the above example, when the ambassador sets out, I don't know exactly how long things will take, whether he'll arrive safely, how the negotiations will turn out, etc., even if no player-driven events interfere.  And that's one of the main things I like about my way over writing a future timeline.  (There's also the possibility that the ambassador's mission could be helped or hindered directly or indirectly by PC actions, but I assume you adjust your future timeline to account for that sort of thing, particularly since you mentioned the timeline being written "in pencil".)

Sorry, I noted the term, "A week ahead", and took it as that.

QuoteIt's basically building a timeline, but doing it only a week ahead, so you don't limit yourself.

I never let this limit me.  But then again, I spend a lot of time working on my timelines and story arcs.    I do have random events charts, actually, but I also   have long term arcs that work above smaller ones that need to be congruent.  There are cogs within cogs within cogs, and while I let random rolls affect the peripheral, the stuff that works with the main arcs has to still fit logically.  

Your ambassador is connected to many people and many groups, and I think I tend more than most to include those interconnections. But I think my detail orientation suits my style of game much more than it would help many other styles.

Great thread. I've been researching tools that will let you run a World-In-Motion/"Living" Campaign more easily, allowing you to track and update these character and location details on the fly. I think I found one that will work wonderfully: TiddlyMap (http://tiddlymap.org)

This is an "edition" of another tool called TiddlyWiki. TiddlyWiki is a "Wiki in a single HTML file". It's meant to be a "local HTML application", not a hosted-website (although you can make that work also). It allows you to create arbitrary small-blocks-of-data (called "tiddlers"), and link them to each other, generate lists, show one block of data in another Tiddler, etc. Really flexible.

TiddlyMap adds on a "concept map" plugin that takes all your cross-linked Wiki content, and shows it as a node-and-line concept-map, much like I manually created in my old "Extracting Semantic Content From Classic Modules" thread. TiddlyWiki also has "ToDo List" functionality that works with TiddlyMap, which I think can be used to map out future timelines (even with branching paths) and have a visual map to reference when you need to.

See this demo map: http://tiddlymap.org/#TaskManagementExample%202.0

Right now I'm considering re-doing that Hommlet project with TiddlyMap. I'm also learning how to code plugin "Widgets" that would allow me to create custom Character Sheets for say, Earthdawn or D&D. I just have to get the data-model nailed down first.

Quote from: Telarus;857610Great thread. I've been researching tools that will let you run a World-In-Motion/"Living" Campaign more easily, allowing you to track and update these character and location details on the fly. I think I found one that will work wonderfully: TiddlyMap (http://tiddlymap.org)

This is an "edition" of another tool called TiddlyWiki. TiddlyWiki is a "Wiki in a single HTML file". It's meant to be a "local HTML application", not a hosted-website (although you can make that work also). It allows you to create arbitrary small-blocks-of-data (called "tiddlers"), and link them to each other, generate lists, show one block of data in another Tiddler, etc. Really flexible.

TiddlyMap adds on a "concept map" plugin that takes all your cross-linked Wiki content, and shows it as a node-and-line concept-map, much like I manually created in my old "Extracting Semantic Content From Classic Modules" thread. TiddlyWiki also has "ToDo List" functionality that works with TiddlyMap, which I think can be used to map out future timelines (even with branching paths) and have a visual map to reference when you need to.

See this demo map: http://tiddlymap.org/#TaskManagementExample%202.0

Right now I'm considering re-doing that Hommlet project with TiddlyMap. I'm also learning how to code plugin "Widgets" that would allow me to create custom Character Sheets for say, Earthdawn or D&D. I just have to get the data-model nailed down first.

I use a full-line linked and searchable wiki for mine, but I know of a few who really liked TiddlyWiki for that purpose.

Quote from: Baulderstone;857015Rather than building a timeline, I think it's better to just give major NPC and factions strong motivations at the start. Decide what they are doing now. During a session, look for ways they might react to the PCs actions if they are helping or hindering them in some way, or simply making a lot of noise.

Between sessions, go back and revise what NPCs are up to. Maybe even revise their motivations based on events of the last session. Look for ways that NPC can be interacting with each other as well.

It's basically building a timeline, but doing it only a week ahead, so you don't limit yourself.

This is great advice.

Quote from: Itachi;857707This is great advice.

I think this is a lot easier if you keep the sandbox small either geographically or in the amount of stuff you`ve nailed down.

Ran a Viking campaign a while back where half of the adventures were set in a tiny fjord that wasn`t even a hamlet just a bunch of farms.

Had the PCs deal with local fueds, pushy outsiders, a creepy local ruin, people trying to get revenge on them and lots and lots of lawsuits. Then every so often they`d get in a longship and hit the outside world to raid, trade, war or tax Lapps.

Was a big world out there but the only place they saw twice was TINY.

Quote from: Daztur;856558I think this can be a real issue with a lot of sandboxes. Often it seems like the whole world beyond the horizon is caught in amber and things only happen when the PCs stumble across them. Generally it matters very much WHERE the PCs go but not at all WHEN they go there.

I see where you're going with this, but I think it's important to note that:

First, the GM is just one person. They are not capable of keeping an entire world in motion.

Second, the real world is largely a status quo. Whether I go to Chicago today, tomorrow, next week, or next month it's going to be basically the same place when I get there.

So, in genreal, GMs should be designing the vast majority of their world to a status quo. And then, by and large, they can leave that world in whatever status quo they designed. The interesting question is where and how that status quo is broken, which basically boils down to:

(1) If the PCs touch something, it goes into motion. If they continue to touch it, it will remain in motion. If they get distracted and stop paying attention to it, it will continue in motion... but then it will eventually settle down into a new status quo.

(2) The PCs are not the only actors in the universe, so in some cases we'll want a status quo to become disrupted by something or someone else. The number of such disruptions is going to be largely determined how much time and interest the GM has to invest in the campaign.

What's probably most interesting to consider are the methods the GM uses for determining disruptions that don't originate from the PCs. (Because, generally speaking, disruptions that originate from the PCs will generally just be a matter of thinking about what's happening and then playing out the consequences.)

Does anyone else just set up a virtual universe in their mind, and then let it follow an organic course where things develop without your intentionally planning them out?

Or is that just a Real-Life-Wizard thing?

Quote from: RPGPundit;858287Does anyone else just set up a virtual universe in their mind, and then let it follow an organic course where things develop without your intentionally planning them out?

Or is that just a Real-Life-Wizard thing?

I do, but, then, I also screwed around with runic divination and galdr for a while, so that doesn't disprove the "real-life-wizard" hypothesis.

Quote from: RPGPundit;858287Does anyone else just set up a virtual universe in their mind, and then let it follow an organic course where things develop without your intentionally planning them out?

Or is that just a Real-Life-Wizard thing?

More or less that what I do. Sometimes specific chain of events are obvious other times it takes a while for things to build as consequences pile on top of consequences.

The best training for this is trying to write a good Alternate History. Start with a single Point of Departure and see where it takes you. Often you have an broad idea what the PoD will eventually result in. For example a more successful Axis in World War II will have some obvious consquence. However often when you start writing specifics and develop the new time line things spin off into unexpected direction as you move forward in time.

That pretty much how it works for when I run the Majestic Wilderland except for the fact that the player as their characters do a lot of the developing for me.

For example City-State is undergoing a Civil War because in the mid 80 a campaign involving "evil" PCs resulted in one of them becoming a powerful City-State noble. Then in the early 90s in another campaign another PC aligned with a religion that opposes the older "evil" character became a powerful noble. Then in the mid 90s a third group screwed up a rescue and got the Overlord son and heir killed. Causing a regency to form when the Overlord died in the mid 00s and his grandson was crowned. And then regency was taken over by the "evil" PC when yet another group causes the original regent faction to lose prestige and power. And the "good" PC noble revolted and City-State split.

After which I plotted out the events of the civil war. In subsequent campaigns PCs did not get involved thus they played out as I planned until a campaign two years ago knocked it off-kilter. Ironically the highlight of that campaign was the group building a tavern at wilderness crossroads.

The money for the Tavern came from the PCs unexpectedly kidnapping the Viking High King of the Skandians and ransoming him to the "good" guy Prince Artos of Nomar. Nomar defeats the disorganized Skandians making them strong enough to deter the "evil" High Regent from attacking them. Which puts him in a weaker position in regards to the "good" PC's faction

So everything is influx until the current campaign is over.

Quote from: RPGPundit;858287Does anyone else just set up a virtual universe in their mind, and then let it follow an organic course where things develop without your intentionally planning them out?

Or is that just a Real-Life-Wizard thing?

Do you mean without writing anything down?

I usually set the boundaries of my sandbox in terms of "where are we starting and wtf is going on here?" Fill it with my set-pieces to scale with the scope of the initial game. Those could be pirate fleets, city-factions, gangs, locations of import etc.

I generally have an idea of which factions and important individuals are doing as the game progresses. I keep track of who knows what and have them act accordingly in my head. I spend downtime between game sessions writing out notes to myself about possibilities that would affect the game, by the next week's session, barring the incessant bluebooking I end up doing between games, I'm ready to hit the ground running. To the players it looks, feels, and reacts like a living world.

So it's virtual, but I keep notes just to stay on track. All I use is Google Docs. Easy peasy.

I usually create a primer so my players can see what the scope and scale is. Here is an example I used for my DC Universe (with some Marvel and a few other tidbits tossed in), I wanted the players to understand the big picture up front in terms of how big I was thinking.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BSYV9pzL0FgSRT16nHuQ8KgOMEOW6nvl-u2Vi2dPncg/edit?usp=sharing

So I just crammed all the baby-notes I could to give people perspective with a little timeline leading up to the start of play. What I didn't tell them was the high-end of the game was literally about the forces of Law fighting the forces of Chaos (which is why most of the main characters were DC Earth 2 where magic was the main focus). So yeah I was setting them up for some epic shit. And the all the verbosity was because I was hinting at who was at play (if you're familiar with the DCU you'll see because I'm naming them in every paragraph).

Quote from: RPGPundit;858287Does anyone else just set up a virtual universe in their mind, and then let it follow an organic course where things develop without your intentionally planning them out?

Or is that just a Real-Life-Wizard thing?

Um, yes?
http://boingboing.net/2011/10/10/an-interview-with-sir-terry-pr.html
Neil Gaiman: When you put your Vimes-writing head on, is there a difference in the way you view the world to, say, when you're in your Rincewind-writing head, or your Granny Weatherwax-writing head?

Terry Pratchett: Oh, yes, surely you know how it is. Once you have your character sitting right there in your head, all you really need to do is wind them up, put them down, and simply write down what they do, say, or think. It really is like that. It verges on the weird; you know you are doing the thinking, but the thinking is being driven by the Sam Vimes module. There is also a fully functioning Tiffany Aching module, too, which is rather strange.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;857722Second, the real world is largely a status quo. Whether I go to Chicago today, tomorrow, next week, or next month it's going to be basically the same place when I get there.

So you are saying that you could visit New York on Sept 10 2001, and again on Sept 11 2001 and one day would be much like the other?

Shit happens, in the real world and in make believe ones. When it does happen, then it matters.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;858507

QuoteSecond, the real world is largely a status quo. Whether I go to Chicago today, tomorrow, next week, or next month it's going to be basically the same place when I get there.

So you are saying that you could visit New York on Sept 10 2001, and again on Sept 11 2001 and one day would be much like the other?

Shit happens, in the real world and in make believe ones. When it does happen, then it matters.

I agree with you 100%. Which is why I said, in the very next paragraph of the post you quoted: "The interesting question is where and how that status quo is broken..."

Quote from: Skarg;858329Do you mean without writing anything down?

Yes. At least, what I mean is: you write stuff about the setting before you start. Then, when you start, you just imbue life on the NPCs, the world, etc. and see what it does.
You MIGHT write down stuff AFTER the fact, just to keep track of what happened. But you don't 'write stuff down' in the sense of sitting and thinking about it and saying "ok, it would be cool if the evil overlord tried to make a pact with the merchant guild" or something like that.

Quote from: Telarus;858441Um, yes?
http://boingboing.net/2011/10/10/an-interview-with-sir-terry-pr.html
Neil Gaiman: When you put your Vimes-writing head on, is there a difference in the way you view the world to, say, when you're in your Rincewind-writing head, or your Granny Weatherwax-writing head?

Terry Pratchett: Oh, yes, surely you know how it is. Once you have your character sitting right there in your head, all you really need to do is wind them up, put them down, and simply write down what they do, say, or think. It really is like that. It verges on the weird; you know you are doing the thinking, but the thinking is being driven by the Sam Vimes module. There is also a fully functioning Tiffany Aching module, too, which is rather strange.

That's about right.

Quote from: RPGPundit;859147Yes. At least, what I mean is: you write stuff about the setting before you start. Then, when you start, you just imbue life on the NPCs, the world, etc. and see what it does.
You MIGHT write down stuff AFTER the fact, just to keep track of what happened. But you don't 'write stuff down' in the sense of sitting and thinking about it and saying "ok, it would be cool if the evil overlord tried to make a pact with the merchant guild" or something like that.

I see. I do "channel" large amounts of stuff similar to how you say, but I also write a lot down (as much as I can without slowing things down), because otherwise I know I will forget or mis-remember details, or generate inconsistent stuff, and I like abundant consistent details and mapped locations and so on.

Well, and I "channel" when I make worlds, and I determine what's where are what's going on and keep notes on (and maps of) all that too. So while I channel for source, it's what generates a lot of pre-generated information that has me going into game sessions already knowing a lot about the setting, so the generation there is mostly about details and what actually happens. I rarely invent entire major things that didn't exist before during play sessions, at least in my preferred GM mode.

Quote from: Skarg;859210I see. I do "channel" large amounts of stuff similar to how you say, but I also write a lot down (as much as I can without slowing things down), because otherwise I know I will forget or mis-remember details, or generate inconsistent stuff, and I like abundant consistent details and mapped locations and so on.

Well, and I "channel" when I make worlds, and I determine what's where are what's going on and keep notes on (and maps of) all that too. So while I channel for source, it's what generates a lot of pre-generated information that has me going into game sessions already knowing a lot about the setting, so the generation there is mostly about details and what actually happens. I rarely invent entire major things that didn't exist before during play sessions, at least in my preferred GM mode.

Again, that is one of the reasons I use the Wiki for all of my organization.  It allows a living, growing database.