How did/do you run your most successful sandbox campaigns?
Do you use a setting that you know light the back of your hand? Improvise large chunks of the world? Jump in with minimal prep time?
I'm not going to say I'm an expert in the field of hex crawls but I have done long campaigns with hex maps and here's some things I did that worked for me.
1. Have landmarks that can be seen from a distance. I put mine about 5 hexes apart and I try to make it so that you can see at least two other landmarks from any one.
2.Populate the map and get the NPCs doing things. Trade, conflict, rivalries, and intrigue should all be going on before your players see the map for the first time.
3. Put in your dungeon entrances.
4. Fill every hex with some kind of encounter. I do about 20% combat type and the rest with other things that tie in with major factions and world events. I also put in clues to various things I've hidden in the map for the players to find. If you're rolling on a random table, now is a good time to do it.
5. Repopulate hexes as the campaign goes along. If someone escaped arrest in a previous session, pick a hex where he's hiding out. Animals and monsters will go to areas that have been previously cleared.
6. Keeps notes. I keep one notebook for the campaign and a separate one for the map. The hex map book has two pages for every hex coordinated by hex number. I keep a lot of spare room to write so that I can update the hex. The campaign notebook should keep a running chronological event table that includes the hexes visited.
7. You can have the players involved with complex intrigue and plots while living in a hex map. Adventures can be layered into events on the hex map and hexes can contain elements of your adventure in them.
8. Hexes are living places. A creature can wander around multiple hexes. Maybe the dragon isn't home when you discover it's nest.
Again, I'm not telling anyone that I'm doing it right, these are just the things I consciously do to keep my game running smoothly. I hope you find this helpful.
I am not an expert, but am currently running one.
Will try to summarize some tips, but let me start with this:
"Improvise large chunks of the world? Jump in with minimal prep time?"
I do not think it is a good idea. I almost ruined my campaign by improvising a situation and making some impromptu rulings.
I'd do the opposite: take pre-written modules, change them as desired BEFORE you start, and then STICK TO THEM. If the PCs live or die it is their own choices, not yours.
Other than that: have plenty of NPCs, encourage hirelings/retainers, start with a "home base" and a few obvious targets/rumors (I give them at least three most of the times).
Let the PCs control hirelings and allies.
Keep notes of past events and (possible) consequences of the PCs and NPCs actions.
Use encounter tables and reaction tables. Reaction is easy to forget, but assuming every orc will attack will quickly cause a TPK for no good reason.
I have been using this for my hex map:
https://hextml.playest.net/
And scattering several classical dungeons. Some examples:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/10/sandbox-quest.html
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/11/sandbox-quest-part-ii.html
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/03/doom-of-savage-kings-dcc-665-actual.html
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/02/the-god-that-crawls-actual-play-review.html
Some world building tips:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/08/easy-worldbuilding-with-pareto-price.html
I'd rather have a finished sandbox, written by someone else, than to create my own, but I did'nt find any good ones with OSr rules - 5e's CoS and ToA are half-decent.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 18, 2023, 09:35:50 PM
"Improvise large chunks of the world? Jump in with minimal prep time?"
I do not think it is a good idea. I almost ruined my campaign by improvising a situation and making some impromptu rulings.
I absolutely agree with this. I don't think you need to build the whole clock before running a game but you should have a solid world filled out with all your major NPCs and a few events and adventure ready to go. If a town is on the other side of the map, you don't need to name the baker's wife but you should have the town ready to run without coming up with it on the fly before the players get there.
Have a bunch of bite sized content. A mini-dungeon. An involved random encounter. A mysterious map or magical compass. Toss this stuff in the way of the PCs when things are slow.
That's how I was running my Starfinder Mercs campaign before Covid killed it. Everyone seemed to be enjoying it. The idea is, if the players find a chunk of content interesting, you can elaborate on it for future sessions. If they aren't interested, you only spent a few minutes on any specific bit.
I've never run a true hex crawl sandbox. I've run various things that are in the 75% to 80% sandbox territory, and some of them have been close to straight hex crawls.
There are two things that I do that I think are useful and appropriate for something approaching a sandbox, and should be useful in one:
1. Make a distinction between things that are placed and things that will be placed but not yet. For example, I've got a bear cave, with 3-5 bears in it, and some odd chunk of treasure left from a mauled humanoid. I haven't placed it when the session starts. When it does get placed, randomly, on purpose, whatever--it stays. Moreover, getting "placed" is decided at the first moment that it is relevant. So that could be someone stumbling on the lair, but it could also be a rumor, or a map, or just some garrulous old codger talking about seeing some bears "back up in them hills". If the players ignore the old codger and go on their merry way, that lair is still right there where it was when they talked to the guy. This is a compromise between completely random and everything mapped out ahead of time, but being true to the idea that the world doesn't move around to have interesting stuff where the players are now.
2. And related to that, if you play it right, some "boring" is appropriate and useful. You don't have to spend tons of play time dealing with the boring stuff, but an uninhabited hex or nothing but a village of peasants that do nothing interesting mixed in with the dangers makes the world seem more real. The players are supposed to be pushing or backing off as needed and to fit what they want. Sometimes a place to retreat and rest if helpful, especially in a system that allows characters to get meaningfully depleted or resources and health in ways that take time to regain. As soon as the players want more excitement, they are free to go find it.
Thanks for the tips folks!
It might be my lack of D&D knowledge showing here*, but why are so many of you talking about hexes?? I didn't think that sandbox=hex crawl?
(*I've played mostly Rolemaster, CoC, and Runequest/BRP-derived games)
Quote from: Trond on October 18, 2023, 10:24:28 PM
Thanks for the tips folks!
It might be my lack of D&D knowledge showing here*, but why are so many of you talking about hexes?? I didn't think that sandbox=hex crawl?
(*I've played mostly Rolemaster, CoC, and Runequest/BRP-derived games)
A sandbox doesn't have to be a hex crawl but a hex crawl is the standard sandbox structure for D&D. Whether you use a hex map or not, you need to have a map of your sandbox and then put the toys in. I can be as abstract as you want as long as it's a consistent layout that players can navigate. You can easily use a city map and do all the same things that are mentioned here. Hell, you can make it a social network map with each junction a high strung social thriller event. It's just that advice you get is most likely going to be about hex crawling because that's how most of us started.
However, get and read some of the old hex crawl modules and read them. They are excellent text books to learn how to run a sandbox.
One other book for sand box play that's not a hex crawl that I've personally run successfully is Chrome Berets for Cyberpunk 2020. Set aside the setting and look at it as a structure for sandbox play in contrast to traditional hex crawl modules for D&D.
Quote from: BadApple on October 18, 2023, 10:58:25 PM
Quote from: Trond on October 18, 2023, 10:24:28 PM
Thanks for the tips folks!
It might be my lack of D&D knowledge showing here*, but why are so many of you talking about hexes?? I didn't think that sandbox=hex crawl?
(*I've played mostly Rolemaster, CoC, and Runequest/BRP-derived games)
A sandbox doesn't have to be a hex crawl but a hex crawl is the standard sandbox structure for D&D.
Yeah, I had to mentally stop myself from thinking hexcrawl because a hexcrawl is probably the easiest format for a sandbox, and it springs to mind right away when talking about sandbox play.
Which brings up an interesting topic you touch on. How to sandbox without a hexcrawl.
The Holy Grail, IMO, of a sandbox is self-directed play. When player characters decide to do stuff because it interestes and involves them, instead of some NPC telling them to care about saving the world so go here and do this.
I like to write a short "newspaper" with articles that give some fun places to visit or mysteries to investigate. A sandbox campaign doesn't have to start from ground zero, but if I have a number of possible plot threads I like to put some ideas and clues down on paper for the players to ponder.
A friend of mine has a "job board" in town where there are some possibilities listed.
In both cases the players can choose what to do, but there are some ideas for them that represent things that might have been prepped.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2023, 03:40:13 AM
Which brings up an interesting topic you touch on. How to sandbox without a hexcrawl.
I don't really understand the question, but then I don't understand why "hexcrawl" and "sandbox" get conflated in the first place. I can't speak for how "most of us" started, but I can say with certainty that no one I've played with ever used or heard the word "hexcrawl" until the 21st century, some 30 years after we started playing.
To me, "hexcrawl" is the wilderness equivalent of a "dungeon crawl". It's a
crawl -- it's right there in the name. It's an adventure, not just another name for a map.
As to how to do a sandbox without a "hexcrawl"? Just make a map (or don't even make a map, if you know the area in your head well enough). It doesn't need to have hexes on it, and it doesn't need to be a "crawl", and it doesn't need to be wilderness
adventure of any kind. The sandbox contains adventure locales and non-adventure locales too.
Hex crawling is generally done in the true wilderness, when the players want to explore what lies beyond civilization. A sandbox is simply an area for play that is living and moving that the players can interact with in numerous ways. You can have hexcrawl sandboxes but they do not have to be. A sandbox can be set anywhere that you wish. A village, a town, or even a city can be the central focus of a sandbox. Once you have your sandbox area picked out, fill it with things of interest that the players can involve themselves in. Always remember that the place keeps moving and living no matter what the players decide. I like to sketch out a rough timeline of what will take place at certain times barring player interference. I like to sprinkle small adventure sites around the area rather than one big dungeon that is the only thing in the area.
Quote from: Trond on October 18, 2023, 07:49:51 PM
How did/do you run your most successful sandbox campaigns?
Do you use a setting that you know light the back of your hand? Improvise large chunks of the world? Jump in with minimal prep time?
The best advice I can give to anyone running a sandbox campaign (other than trying out 1:1 time with patron play because that's really fun and surprisingly easy to manage) is to actually not start it as a sandbox. Start in a small area with a tight narrative. A single street of the city, a small village, that kind of thing. Give them a clear cut object that establishes the world. Apprehend a dangerous wizard, find the missing jewels, etc. Funnel them down the first couple of leads in this small and controlled environment where their choices are limited and they still believe you're dragging them through a heckin epic story.
The entire time you're still asking them what they want to do. And making sure whatever they pick gets them through what you've made. Then start gradually opening things up as the plot thickens. The wizard was working for a shady guild of demon worshipers, the jewels belong to a notable merchant. Where do you go next? Intriguing choices are made and resolved. Then you open things up a lot more suddenly they have three different objectives, one in a nearby cave, another in a lord's manor, and one more in a different neighborhood.
By the time they've completed a couple objectives, they start to really make decisions for themselves. By about the tenth session you've resolved the plot thread you started in the first session in such a way that you open things up even more with a map and several plot threads to pursue. It's the party's choice on what to do. They're now playing a sandbox campaign with the confidence to make decisions.
Quote from: Trond on October 18, 2023, 10:24:28 PM
Thanks for the tips folks!
It might be my lack of D&D knowledge showing here*, but why are so many of you talking about hexes?? I didn't think that sandbox=hex crawl?
(*I've played mostly Rolemaster, CoC, and Runequest/BRP-derived games)
The original RPG sandboxes were hexcrawls IIRC (from Wilderness Adventure)... but TBH I would consider using a pointcrawl instead.
A hexcrawl means exploring a territory that is divided by hexes, with no clear paths, and a pointcrawl means exploring a territory through preexisting paths and points of interest.
I'm convinced that pointcrawls are more useful and hexcrawls are only good for an specific (but very popular) type of campaign: one in which the PCs go exploring the unknown wilderness beyond civilization.
Pointcrawls, on the other hand, are useful if you're dealing with roads, cities, caravans, or even when going though the wilderness with a guide; if the guide knows a place, it knows a good path to this place. A dungeon, with rooms and corridors, resembles a pointcrawl.
One thing about pointcrawls is that you should focus on paths, instead of only points of interest. How does the Old Road look like, and what kind of creatures use it, how long does it take to travel it? Etc.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/11/hexcrawl-x-pointcrawl-when-to-use-them.html
Here is another technique I use: write open questions for me and my players about the consequences of their actions or loose thread in general.
E.g.:
- How will people react to the death of the mayor?
- Will the enemies you left in town X come search for you?
- Etc.
EDIT: one more - have a big, evil faction as an end boss. Let the PCs see some sings early on.
Quote from: Zalman on October 19, 2023, 07:13:36 AM
I don't really understand the question, but then I don't understand why "hexcrawl" and "sandbox" get conflated in the first place. I can't speak for how "most of us" started, but I can say with certainty that no one I've played with ever used or heard the word "hexcrawl" until the 21st century, some 30 years after we started playing.
...
I was wondering the same thing. Maybe hex crawls just happen to be the popular way of doing sandboxes these days?
To me sandbox=opposite of railroad
Quote from: Trond on October 19, 2023, 09:30:34 AM
Maybe hex crawls just happen to be the popular way of doing sandboxes these days?
To me sandbox=opposite of railroad
Hex crawls are a perennial way of doing sandbox games. It's original to the very early days of RPGs, even as D&D wasn't yet codified into a rules set.
Using a hex map is an excellent way for a GM to build up a sandbox, even if the players never see it. It can be a geographical representation or it can be abstract and a way to map out many concepts like political structures for intrigue. Even if it doesn't work perfectly, it gives a functional structure that lies between a single line like a rail road and disorganized chaos where you're flying by the seat of your pants and hoping you don't get caught out by your players.
I'm no expert, I just draw a map. The map has a scale, so you can eyeball travel distance. I don't use hexes. If I want to key a location, I use its name.
The map is as detailed as the characters' knowledge. There are usually large empty/sparse areas that I can fill in as needed. Like someone else mentioned, when a location is first mentioned it goes on the map.
The first adventure is tightly run and introduces NPCs, items, and locations to build other adventures from.
I've found that it's helpful to plant a lot of seeds early. Introduce powerful NPC and interesting far off locations. As play continues, these things will grow. Remember that prince you met way back? Now he needs your help, is trying to kill you, etc. You should always be churning the old into the new. It makes the world feel alive.
To be fair to the players in sandbox play you need some way to organize your locations. A hex map is obviously one of those, and it has several useful features (especially at the 6 miles per hex version, though I acknowledge that the 5 mile per hex has its strong points). A map on a square grid has some benefits. A map where you use a ruler or even a good eye to estimate distances also has its benefits. A list of locations with distances between them doesn't work for me, but I can see how it might for some people.
Note that the question of what kind of map the GM uses to organize is separate from what the players see. There is a kind of fun in giving the players a blank hex map with only their current location and the adjacent six hexes marked, and then send them off into the world at their own speed. This puts a little more emphasis on the game aspect of play, as it is yet one more area where the players can be clever or stupid, lucky or unlucky, etc. Separate from their character capabilities. There's also a lot to be said for having a scrawled, only partially accurate map as the player handout, even if the GM is using a full hex map and the players know it. There's something to be said for players get no map whatsoever, other than what they make themselves. I've done all three of those in a homebrew setting, and I'd be hard-pressed to pick an absolute favorite. Switching that around is one way I vary game play from campaign to campaign.
Lacking organization and too much improvisation is likely to lead to not playing sandbox. It varies with scale and the individual GM limits, but every GM has a bridge too far in this regard. I'm not a purist in sandbox play, in part because sometimes it's less prep work to do some targeted improvisation. However, it's important that the GM not lie to their players or themselves as to what they are in fact doing.
Quote from: King Tyranno on October 19, 2023, 08:08:49 AM
The best advice I can give to anyone running a sandbox campaign (other than trying out 1:1 time with patron play because that's really fun and surprisingly easy to manage) is to actually not start it as a sandbox. Start in a small area with a tight narrative. A single street of the city, a small village, that kind of thing. Give them a clear cut object that establishes the world. Apprehend a dangerous wizard, find the missing jewels, etc. Funnel them down the first couple of leads in this small and controlled environment where their choices are limited and they still believe you're dragging them through a heckin epic story.
The entire time you're still asking them what they want to do. And making sure whatever they pick gets them through what you've made. Then start gradually opening things up as the plot thickens. The wizard was working for a shady guild of demon worshipers, the jewels belong to a notable merchant. Where do you go next? Intriguing choices are made and resolved. Then you open things up a lot more suddenly they have three different objectives, one in a nearby cave, another in a lord's manor, and one more in a different neighborhood.
By the time they've completed a couple objectives, they start to really make decisions for themselves. By about the tenth session you've resolved the plot thread you started in the first session in such a way that you open things up even more with a map and several plot threads to pursue. It's the party's choice on what to do. They're now playing a sandbox campaign with the confidence to make decisions.
This is an interesting point of view.
Quote from: Zalman on October 19, 2023, 07:13:36 AM
I don't really understand the question, but then I don't understand why "hexcrawl" and "sandbox" get conflated in the first place. I can't speak for how "most of us" started, but I can say with certainty that no one I've played with ever used or heard the word "hexcrawl" until the 21st century, some 30 years after we started playing.
"Sandbox" is also a 21st century term according to some. The fact is, a lot of us ran D&D back in the day in what would be termed "sandbox" today. Likewise, hexcrawling was a thing before the term "hexcrawl" came about. It wasn't widespread. I often felt unsatisfied with wilderness travel in my own games and literally everyone else's game I played in more or less glossed over it. But when I finally figured it out, which was last century, I saw that every tool I needed had literally been there the entire time in the 1979 DMG.
I don't care what you call it. Hexcrawling is that old at least. But yeah, lots of people sandboxed back in the day. Few hexcrawled. Sandbox sans hexcrawl is just the default campaign as far as I'm concerned.
My number one sandboxing tip is to enforce the inevitable results of player stupidity. I have seen too many times where the DM will place a location like a dragon's lair, give the players plenty of information, and they still do the dumbest shit possible. Yes, you find this lair and you figure out it's inhabited by a dragon, oh yes, it is a very large dragon who is sleeping, yeah he has a lot of treasure, why the fuck are you attacking him as a level one party...
"The DM would never/should never make encounters available that the characters can't handle." I agree with this. Unfortunately running the hell away is handling it. Modern gamers seem to think ANY possible encounter needs to be met with combat, so let them go ahead and see how that works out. A sandbox should have all sorts of crazy overpowered nonsense to give the PCs a reason to gain power, they just have to learn to actually get that power first.
I agree that handling and winning are not the same thing. I try to make it clear to my players just because something is there it doesnt mean you can or should try to beat it.
Again, I don't view myself as a skilled GM, but I suppose I have a unique perspective for this forum because I tend to prefer GMing Modern campaigns.
First, if players are going to a new location I haven't prepped for, I session break. I would imagine most GMs do this, but it's worth reinforcing that just because the campaign is a sandbox doesn't mean I'm going to instantly populate something with content. Players should know going in that if they go somewhere I don't have prep for, that's a session break.
Second, I use real world location information liberally. Seriously; you can Google maps for malls, airports, offices, aquariums and museums, restaurants, sports stadiums...the list goes on and on. It's way faster and easier to make a huge map by shoving two or three of these things together and modifying it than by designing it from scratch because the real thing definitely has all the things it needs. Nothing ruins immersion quite like forgetting to put a bathroom or a parking deck in.
My next step is typically to populate a location with NPCs and encounters. Obviously, this stuff depends on the campaign, the plot lines the PCs are already embroiled in, and the location. I tend to prefer making fewer higher quality NPCs; they have motivations and a Baseline Schedule they follow as time proceeds in the campaign. The Baseline Schedule is just a list of things the NPC will do if the PCs change nothing. Quite often the Baseline Schedule ends badly so the PCs have a lot of leeway to improve it. Whenever the PCs long-rest, the story advances. The Antagonist moves whatever schemes he or she was up to forward and NPCs tick forward on their Baseline Schedules unless the PCs did something to change it. It's not like every long rest makes every Scheme and every NPC's Baseline Schedule tick forward; it's generally better to tick one scheme and two or three NPC's schedules than everything in the campaign. The thing is you want to have enough of this going on that it feels like the universe has a life of its own and is moving forward with or without the players, but is also something the PCs can and are modifying. Generally, the more you tick forward per long rest, the less control the players feel they have over the campaign.
Quote from: Brad on October 19, 2023, 02:15:44 PM"The DM would never/should never make encounters available that the characters can't handle." I agree with this. Unfortunately running the hell away is handling it. Modern gamers seem to think ANY possible encounter needs to be met with combat, so let them go ahead and see how that works out. A sandbox should have all sorts of crazy overpowered nonsense to give the PCs a reason to gain power, they just have to learn to actually get that power first.
Maybe the statement was intended to be strictly smart-alecky rather than made for it's truth value. When I think "handle," I too also include running away. Sometimes that is the best way of handling a situation, sure. But what if an encounter can not only kick the party's ass, but is too fast to out-run? Like say a 1st level party encountering giant ants? Does that violate this "should never" standard?
Here's the gaff. I did some experiments running a solo 1st level MU through an Appendix A dungeon to prove it can be done. And I knew in advance that would involve a lot of running away so I made sure I had the Pursuit & Evasion rules down cold. And it points out in there that semi- and animal intelligent creatures will almost always go for food. So all the MU has to do when encountering giant ants is make sure to take some food or rations, then throw it down and get away while the ants are going for the food.
But suppose I were planning a sandbox 2 weeks before I read up on this. As far as I knew, giant ants would be an encounter characters can't handle. It's just that what I thought I knew would have been wrong. Isn't it perfectly acceptable to throw things at the PCs that the GM doesn't know the solution to, placing the burden on the players to find a solution? Why would the standard be my one puny brain when in actual play it's going to be 4 or 5 or 6 brains working to figure something out?
Quote from: Brad on October 19, 2023, 02:15:44 PM
My number one sandboxing tip is to enforce the inevitable results of player stupidity. I have seen too many times where the DM will place a location like a dragon's lair, give the players plenty of information, and they still do the dumbest shit possible. Yes, you find this lair and you figure out it's inhabited by a dragon, oh yes, it is a very large dragon who is sleeping, yeah he has a lot of treasure, why the fuck are you attacking him as a level one party...
"The DM would never/should never make encounters available that the characters can't handle." I agree with this. Unfortunately running the hell away is handling it. Modern gamers seem to think ANY possible encounter needs to be met with combat, so let them go ahead and see how that works out. A sandbox should have all sorts of crazy overpowered nonsense to give the PCs a reason to gain power, they just have to learn to actually get that power first.
Running away is one way to handle something. Negotiation and parley is another method. Dragons love flattery and they also enjoy servants & minions. Perhaps the party can offer to serve the dragon and by doing so continue to gather information about it. An unintelligent monster that just wants a meal is a perfect creature to run first and ask questions later from. Intelligent NPCs and monsters can often be talked to and some sort of agreement reached. Worse case scenario is the want to kill you anyway so talking at least gives a little time to come up with something.
Quote from: Lunamancer on October 19, 2023, 09:07:23 PM
Like say a 1st level party encountering giant ants? Does that violate this "should never" standard?
I guess if the rulebook says they die, it's immutable and this they die. Make sure to show them the Monster Manual entry.
Quote from: Trond on October 18, 2023, 07:49:51 PM
How did/do you run your most successful sandbox campaigns?
Do you use a setting that you know light the back of your hand? Improvise large chunks of the world? Jump in with minimal prep time?
Objectively my How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox has been voted as my "best" tip
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-to-make-fantasy-sandbox.html
I think this post is pretty good where I outline the basic principles I use: The Bag of Stuff, World in Motion, and the Initial Context
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2017/08/my-axioms-of-sandbox-campaigns.html
Finally I have a partial log of a sandbox campaign I ran here
Part 1
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-sandbox-campaign-nomar-campaign-part-1.html
Part 2
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-sandbox-campaign-nomar-campaign-part-2.html
Part 3
I forgot to write this up but the basic gist is that after capturing the viking king at L - Tunworth they sold his ransom to Prince (ruling) Artos of Nomar and went to the capital at Dorn M to collect it. Then decided to use part of the proceeds to buy the right to build an inn at N (a crossroad).
The rest of the campaign involved the party clearing out the undead and weirdness that was happening at in the Plains of Cairns (O) and dealing with local nobles (P). The campaign wrapped up with the Plain of Cairns dealt with and the inn was built.
Also I shared (for free) my World outside of the dungeon chapter from my Majestic Fantasy RPG, Basic Rules
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/The%20World%20Outside%20of%20the%20Dungeon.pdf
And finally I have a kickstarter, How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/batintheatticgames/how-to-make-a-fantasy-sandbox
Which focus on how to write up a hexcrawl formatted setting in a way that is useful for a fantasy sandbox campaign.
Quote from: Zalman on October 19, 2023, 07:13:36 AM
I don't really understand the question, but then I don't understand why "hexcrawl" and "sandbox" get conflated in the first place. I can't speak for how "most of us" started, but I can say with certainty that no one I've played with ever used or heard the word "hexcrawl" until the 21st century, some 30 years after we started playing.
Because the label "Sandbox campaign" was created in the mid 2000s by the team who made the Wilderlands of High Fantasy boxed set for Necromancer Games.
The example that was held up where those old Judges Guild maps and our account of how players wandered the landscape looking for adventure. Hence "hexcrawling".
Quote from: Zalman on October 19, 2023, 07:13:36 AM
To me, "hexcrawl" is the wilderness equivalent of a "dungeon crawl". It's a crawl -- it's right there in the name. It's an adventure, not just another name for a map.
I agree it is just one thing you can do for a sandbox campaign. As for "hexcrawl" I am careful to distinguish between "hexcrawl" in the sense you state, and a hexcrawl-formatted setting like Traveller or the Wilderlands.
Here how I explain it
What is a Hexcrawl-formatted setting?A hex grid is placed over a map of the setting with each hex numbered. The hex location of the various locales such as lairs, are noted and arranged into an index. This format provides a convenient way to reference detailed local information within the setting.
You can look at the map, see the hex number the location is in, and then look it up quickly in the book. It works in reverse as well. You can read about a location in the book, which will have its hex location noted in the text. Then look up where it is on the map quickly.
This allows for easy access to dozens if not hundreds of detailed locations scattered across the setting map.
Hexcrawls and Sandbox CampaignsSandbox campaigns are distinguished by the fact the players drive the campaign forward by their choices. While there are many types of sandbox campaigns, one common type is where the group arrives at a location on the map and begins exploring the region.
Regardless of the type of sandbox that is being run, the possibility exists that the players will decide that they need to head west instead of east in pursuit of their goals. The ease of looking locations up makes the hexcrawl-formatted setting a useful tool for the referee trying to keep ahead of their players while running a sandbox campaign.
Quote from: Lunamancer on October 19, 2023, 12:36:04 PM
I don't care what you call it. Hexcrawling is that old at least. But yeah, lots of people sandboxed back in the day. Few hexcrawled. Sandbox sans hexcrawl is just the default campaign as far as I'm concerned.
Yup while the labels and their definitions were only invented in the mid 2000s (sandbox campaign was taken from sandbox computer games) people, including myself, were playing that way since the late 70s and early 80s.
We, the Wilderlands Boxed Set team, came up with Sandbox campaign as a way to explain what we were doing then and back in the day. Hexcrawl came later as a shorthand for a type of sandbox campaign.
When I think of my most successful sandbox campaign and go down the bullet points of what I think made it work, I realized almost none of those points are shared in common with any of my other successful sandbox campaigns I've run. Only two points hold constant. They were dungeon-crawl heavy. And each individual session was fun in itself.
And really I think the reason the campaigns were dungeon crawl heavy is because I find dungeon crawls lend themselves to easily make for sessions that are fun on their own. So it's really just that one point. Of course, each session being fun in itself will probably help any style of campaign be more successful.
I tried to think of something more specific that separates sandboxes from working versus not. And what I came up with is smashing symmetry. This, too, I find helpful in any sort of campaign and junctures in which players must make a choice. But since players are making choices non-stop in a sandbox campaign, it's going to come up all the time in sandbox play. It's also something that is particularly noteworthy in sandbox play because I think there's going to be a tendency to do the exact opposite if you don't have this one on your checklist.
Here's what I mean about smashing symmetry. When presenting choices, they can't be functionally identical or equal. I think there is a tendency in running a sandbox to specifically try to force choices to be equal as possible. In play what happens if choices are too balanced or too indistinct is players take a lot longer deciding, and that can grind the game to a halt if it gets really bad.
Here's an example of introducing asymmetries.
When using Appendix A (random solo dungeon), in empty rooms with multiple exits, or in corridor intersections, a lot of times there's just no good reason to choose one way to go over another. Especially when Out-of-Character you know it's just a random dungeon. And what I've found is this can be solved by including a chance for dropping in one or more things randomly generated from Appendix I (dungeon dressing) located in a random direction.
"You reach a four-way intersection--do you go left, right, or straight ahead?" becomes "You reach a four-way intersection. On the ground straight ahead you notice a broken arrow. You hear screams coming from the left. What do you do?"
Huge difference. And this will probably also be a successful pattern interrupt to players who go through dungeons with algorithmic SOPs. Like stay right.
Quote from: Lunamancer on October 21, 2023, 01:27:18 AM
Here's what I mean about smashing symmetry. When presenting choices, they can't be functionally identical or equal. I think there is a tendency in running a sandbox to specifically try to force choices to be equal as possible. In play what happens if choices are too balanced or too indistinct is players take a lot longer deciding, and that can grind the game to a halt if it gets really bad.
Here's an example of introducing asymmetries.
When using Appendix A (random solo dungeon), in empty rooms with multiple exits, or in corridor intersections, a lot of times there's just no good reason to choose one way to go over another. Especially when Out-of-Character you know it's just a random dungeon. And what I've found is this can be solved by including a chance for dropping in one or more things randomly generated from Appendix I (dungeon dressing) located in a random direction.
I think of this in terms of player information. When I'm trying to have a proactive campaign, I give the players a lot of information about what is going on - so they can make informed choices. My rule of thumb is that the PCs should be better informed overall than most of the important NPCs they encounter.
This sort of sandbox is different than a lot of hexcrawl, but it is still distinguished by the open structure rather than a given mission.
I'll typically have several factions ongoing, and try to keep track of what each is doing. A common useful tool is a relationship map -- which is a diagram of NPCs with lines between them showing how they connect to each other. I first remember seeing these in White Wolf modules.
Quote from: jhkim on October 21, 2023, 06:54:19 PM
I think of this in terms of player information. When I'm trying to have a proactive campaign, I give the players a lot of information about what is going on - so they can make informed choices. My rule of thumb is that the PCs should be better informed overall than most of the important NPCs they encounter.
I don't disagree with this. The tricky part is we start at zero with a brand new campaign, and I'm not a big-fan of front-loading a bunch of lore. I want to get to playing as quickly as possible. Once play starts, PCs will accumulate information over time, and so we eventually get to a really good place there. But it initially helps a lot to do something to stir the pot. And even in the long run, I think the occasional stir is helpful.
QuoteI'll typically have several factions ongoing, and try to keep track of what each is doing. A common useful tool is a relationship map -- which is a diagram of NPCs with lines between them showing how they connect to each other. I first remember seeing these in White Wolf modules.
I like using the 1E loyalty system for individual relationships. I'm not as enthusiastic about factions, but I can say last time I ran the basic D&D module The Veiled Society, I had the key choices would earn a point with one of the three factions, and the running scores would determine at the end of the adventure which faction the PCs are allied with. The "net deeds" in that direction would affect the PCs "Repute" score (this taken from the Lejendary Adventure RPG).
My most successful. Well I started it on Harn which is pretty well detailed already and used RuneQuest (without magic) which was pretty gritty and low powered.
So it started with the characters working for an Earl and learning the world and factions so it was a bit railroady at first as they did missions for the Earl.
Then I planned out a civil war. Sieges, troop movements, intervention by a neighbor. I put that on a timeline with the idea each event would occur unless the PC did something I felt might change things. Improvising within that context was pretty easy. Nearly every adventure was political or some direct mission to thwart something.
Once the PCs were cut off from the Earl they started to make their own plans and seek alliances and try to stop the bad guys. They stopped the invasion by the foreign power but eventually the bad guys won and they fled the area and worked out plans to return for revenge. The campaign fell apart then as we all went to university. It was very memorable and fairly easy to GM.