Quote from: Zalman on October 19, 2023, 07:13:36 AM

I don't really understand the question, but then I don't understand why "hexcrawl" and "sandbox" get conflated in the first place. I can't speak for how "most of us" started, but I can say with certainty that no one I've played with ever used or heard the word "hexcrawl" until the 21st century, some 30 years after we started playing.
...

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe hex crawls just happen to be the popular way of doing sandboxes these days?

To me sandbox=opposite of railroad

Quote from: Trond on October 19, 2023, 09:30:34 AM
Maybe hex crawls just happen to be the popular way of doing sandboxes these days?

To me sandbox=opposite of railroad

Hex crawls are a perennial way of doing sandbox games.  It's original to the very early days of RPGs, even as D&D wasn't yet codified into a rules set.

Using a hex map is an excellent way for a GM to build up a sandbox, even if the players never see it.  It can be a geographical representation or it can be abstract and a way to map out many concepts like political structures for intrigue.  Even if it doesn't work perfectly, it gives a functional structure that lies between a single line like a rail road and disorganized chaos where you're flying by the seat of your pants and hoping you don't get caught out by your players.

I'm no expert, I just draw a map. The map has a scale, so you can eyeball travel distance. I don't use hexes. If I want to key a location, I use its name.

The map is as detailed as the characters' knowledge. There are usually large empty/sparse areas that I can fill in as needed. Like someone else mentioned, when a location is first mentioned it goes on the map. 

The first adventure is tightly run and introduces NPCs, items, and locations to build other adventures from.

I've found that it's helpful to plant a lot of seeds early. Introduce powerful NPC and interesting far off locations. As play continues, these things will grow. Remember that prince you met way back? Now he needs your help, is trying to kill you, etc. You should always be churning the old into the new. It makes the world feel alive.

To be fair to the players in sandbox play you need some way to organize your locations. A hex map is obviously one of those, and it has several useful features (especially at the 6 miles per hex version, though I acknowledge that the 5 mile per hex has its strong points).  A map on a square grid has some benefits.  A map where you use a ruler or even a good eye to estimate distances also has its benefits.  A list of locations with distances between them doesn't work for me, but I can see how it might for some people.

Note that the question of what kind of map the GM uses to organize is separate from what the players see.  There is a kind of fun in giving the players a blank hex map with only their current location and the adjacent six hexes marked, and then send them off into the world at their own speed.  This puts a little more emphasis on the game aspect of play, as it is yet one more area where the players can be clever or stupid, lucky or unlucky, etc.  Separate from their character capabilities.  There's also a lot to be said for having a scrawled, only partially accurate map as the player handout, even if the GM is using a full hex map and the players know it.  There's something to be said for players get no map whatsoever, other than what they make themselves.  I've done all three of those in a homebrew setting, and I'd be hard-pressed to pick an absolute favorite.  Switching that around is one way I vary game play from campaign to campaign.

Lacking organization and too much improvisation is likely to lead to not playing sandbox. It varies with scale and the individual GM limits, but every GM has a bridge too far in this regard.  I'm not a purist in sandbox play, in part because sometimes it's less prep work to do some targeted improvisation.  However, it's important that the GM not lie to their players or themselves as to what they are in fact doing.

Quote from: King Tyranno on October 19, 2023, 08:08:49 AM

The best advice I can give to anyone running a sandbox campaign (other than trying out 1:1 time with patron play because that's really fun and surprisingly easy to manage) is to actually not start it as a sandbox. Start in a small area with a tight narrative. A single street of the city, a small village, that kind of thing. Give them a clear cut object that establishes the world. Apprehend a dangerous wizard, find the missing jewels, etc. Funnel them down the first couple of leads in this small and controlled environment where their choices are limited and they still believe you're dragging them through a heckin epic story.

The entire time you're still asking them what they want to do. And making sure whatever they pick gets them through what you've made. Then start gradually opening things up as the plot thickens. The wizard was working for a shady guild of demon worshipers, the jewels belong to a notable merchant. Where do you go next? Intriguing choices are made and resolved. Then you open things up a lot more suddenly they have three different objectives, one in a nearby cave, another in a lord's manor, and one more in a different neighborhood.

By the time they've completed a couple objectives, they start to really make decisions for themselves. By about the tenth session you've resolved the plot thread you started in the first session in such a way that you open things up even more with a map and several plot threads to pursue. It's the party's choice on what to do. They're now playing a sandbox campaign with the confidence to make decisions.

This is an interesting point of view.

Quote from: Zalman on October 19, 2023, 07:13:36 AM
I don't really understand the question, but then I don't understand why "hexcrawl" and "sandbox" get conflated in the first place. I can't speak for how "most of us" started, but I can say with certainty that no one I've played with ever used or heard the word "hexcrawl" until the 21st century, some 30 years after we started playing.

"Sandbox" is also a 21st century term according to some. The fact is, a lot of us ran D&D back in the day in what would be termed "sandbox" today. Likewise, hexcrawling was a thing before the term "hexcrawl" came about. It wasn't widespread. I often felt unsatisfied with wilderness travel in my own games and literally everyone else's game I played in more or less glossed over it. But when I finally figured it out, which was last century, I saw that every tool I needed had literally been there the entire time in the 1979 DMG.

I don't care what you call it. Hexcrawling is that old at least. But yeah, lots of people sandboxed back in the day. Few hexcrawled. Sandbox sans hexcrawl is just the default campaign as far as I'm concerned.

My number one sandboxing tip is to enforce the inevitable results of player stupidity. I have seen too many times where the DM will place a location like a dragon's lair, give the players plenty of information, and they still do the dumbest shit possible. Yes, you find this lair and you figure out it's inhabited by a dragon, oh yes, it is a very large dragon who is sleeping, yeah he has a lot of treasure, why the fuck are you attacking him as a level one party...

"The DM would never/should never make encounters available that the characters can't handle." I agree with this. Unfortunately running the hell away is handling it. Modern gamers seem to think ANY possible encounter needs to be met with combat, so let them go ahead and see how that works out. A sandbox should have all sorts of crazy overpowered nonsense to give the PCs a reason to gain power, they just have to learn to actually get that power first.

  I agree that handling and winning are not the same thing.  I try to make it clear to my players just because something is there it doesnt mean you can or should try to beat it. 

Again, I don't view myself as a skilled GM, but I suppose I have a unique perspective for this forum because I tend to prefer GMing Modern campaigns.

First, if players are going to a new location I haven't prepped for, I session break. I would imagine most GMs do this, but it's worth reinforcing that just because the campaign is a sandbox doesn't mean I'm going to instantly populate something with content. Players should know going in that if they go somewhere I don't have prep for, that's a session break.

Second, I use real world location information liberally. Seriously; you can Google maps for malls, airports, offices, aquariums and museums, restaurants, sports stadiums...the list goes on and on. It's way faster and easier to make a huge map by shoving two or three of these things together and modifying it than by designing it from scratch because the real thing definitely has all the things it needs. Nothing ruins immersion quite like forgetting to put a bathroom or a parking deck in.

My next step is typically to populate a location with NPCs and encounters. Obviously, this stuff depends on the campaign, the plot lines the PCs are already embroiled in, and the location. I tend to prefer making fewer higher quality NPCs; they have motivations and a Baseline Schedule they follow as time proceeds in the campaign. The Baseline Schedule is just a list of things the NPC will do if the PCs change nothing. Quite often the Baseline Schedule ends badly so the PCs have a lot of leeway to improve it. Whenever the PCs long-rest, the story advances. The Antagonist moves whatever schemes he or she was up to forward and NPCs tick forward on their Baseline Schedules unless the PCs did something to change it. It's not like every long rest makes every Scheme and every NPC's Baseline Schedule tick forward; it's generally better to tick one scheme and two or three NPC's schedules than everything in the campaign. The thing is you want to have enough of this going on that it feels like the universe has a life of its own and is moving forward with or without the players, but is also something the PCs can and are modifying. Generally, the more you tick forward per long rest, the less control the players feel they have over the campaign.

Quote from: Brad on October 19, 2023, 02:15:44 PM"The DM would never/should never make encounters available that the characters can't handle." I agree with this. Unfortunately running the hell away is handling it. Modern gamers seem to think ANY possible encounter needs to be met with combat, so let them go ahead and see how that works out. A sandbox should have all sorts of crazy overpowered nonsense to give the PCs a reason to gain power, they just have to learn to actually get that power first.

Maybe the statement was intended to be strictly smart-alecky rather than made for it's truth value. When I think "handle," I too also include running away. Sometimes that is the best way of handling a situation, sure. But what if an encounter can not only kick the party's ass, but is too fast to out-run? Like say a 1st level party encountering giant ants? Does that violate this "should never" standard?

Here's the gaff. I did some experiments running a solo 1st level MU through an Appendix A dungeon to prove it can be done. And I knew in advance that would involve a lot of running away so I made sure I had the Pursuit & Evasion rules down cold. And it points out in there that semi- and animal intelligent creatures will almost always go for food. So all the MU has to do when encountering giant ants is make sure to take some food or rations, then throw it down and get away while the ants are going for the food.

But suppose I were planning a sandbox 2 weeks before I read up on this. As far as I knew, giant ants would be an encounter characters can't handle. It's just that what I thought I knew would have been wrong. Isn't it perfectly acceptable to throw things at the PCs that the GM doesn't know the solution to, placing the burden on the players to find a solution? Why would the standard be my one puny brain when in actual play it's going to be 4 or 5 or 6 brains working to figure something out?

Quote from: Brad on October 19, 2023, 02:15:44 PM
My number one sandboxing tip is to enforce the inevitable results of player stupidity. I have seen too many times where the DM will place a location like a dragon's lair, give the players plenty of information, and they still do the dumbest shit possible. Yes, you find this lair and you figure out it's inhabited by a dragon, oh yes, it is a very large dragon who is sleeping, yeah he has a lot of treasure, why the fuck are you attacking him as a level one party...

"The DM would never/should never make encounters available that the characters can't handle." I agree with this. Unfortunately running the hell away is handling it. Modern gamers seem to think ANY possible encounter needs to be met with combat, so let them go ahead and see how that works out. A sandbox should have all sorts of crazy overpowered nonsense to give the PCs a reason to gain power, they just have to learn to actually get that power first.

Running away is one way to handle something. Negotiation and parley is another method. Dragons love flattery and they also enjoy servants & minions. Perhaps the party can offer to serve the dragon and by doing so continue to gather information about it. An unintelligent monster that just wants a meal is a perfect creature to run first and ask questions later from. Intelligent NPCs and monsters can often be talked to and some sort of agreement reached. Worse case scenario is the want to kill you anyway so talking at least gives a little time to come up with something.

Quote from: Lunamancer on October 19, 2023, 09:07:23 PM
Like say a 1st level party encountering giant ants? Does that violate this "should never" standard?

I guess if the rulebook says they die, it's immutable and this they die. Make sure to show them the Monster Manual entry.

Quote from: Trond on October 18, 2023, 07:49:51 PM
How did/do you run your most successful sandbox campaigns?
Do you use a setting that you know light the back of your hand? Improvise large chunks of the world? Jump in with minimal prep time?

Objectively my How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox has been voted as my "best" tip
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-to-make-fantasy-sandbox.html

I think this post is pretty good where I outline the basic principles I use: The Bag of Stuff, World in Motion, and the Initial Context
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2017/08/my-axioms-of-sandbox-campaigns.html

Finally I have a partial log of a sandbox campaign I ran here

Part 1
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-sandbox-campaign-nomar-campaign-part-1.html

Part 2
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-sandbox-campaign-nomar-campaign-part-2.html

Part 3
I forgot to write this up but the basic gist is that after capturing the viking king at L - Tunworth they sold his ransom to Prince (ruling) Artos of Nomar and went to the capital at Dorn M to collect it. Then decided to use part of the proceeds to buy the right to build an inn at N (a crossroad).

The rest of the campaign involved the party clearing out the undead and weirdness that was happening at in the Plains of Cairns (O) and dealing with local nobles (P). The campaign wrapped up with the Plain of Cairns  dealt with and the inn was built.

Also I shared (for free) my World outside of the dungeon chapter from my Majestic Fantasy RPG, Basic Rules
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/The%20World%20Outside%20of%20the%20Dungeon.pdf

And finally I have a kickstarter, How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/batintheatticgames/how-to-make-a-fantasy-sandbox

Which focus on how to write up a hexcrawl formatted setting in a way that is useful for a fantasy sandbox campaign.

Quote from: Zalman on October 19, 2023, 07:13:36 AM
I don't really understand the question, but then I don't understand why "hexcrawl" and "sandbox" get conflated in the first place. I can't speak for how "most of us" started, but I can say with certainty that no one I've played with ever used or heard the word "hexcrawl" until the 21st century, some 30 years after we started playing.

Because the label "Sandbox campaign" was created in the mid 2000s by the team who made the Wilderlands of High Fantasy boxed set for Necromancer Games.

The example that was held up where those old Judges Guild maps and our account of how players wandered the landscape looking for adventure. Hence "hexcrawling".

Quote from: Zalman on October 19, 2023, 07:13:36 AM
To me, "hexcrawl" is the wilderness equivalent of a "dungeon crawl". It's a crawl -- it's right there in the name. It's an adventure, not just another name for a map.

I agree it is just one thing you can do for a sandbox campaign. As for "hexcrawl" I am careful to distinguish between "hexcrawl" in the sense you state, and a hexcrawl-formatted setting like Traveller or the Wilderlands.

Here how I explain it

What is a Hexcrawl-formatted setting?
A hex grid is placed over a map of the setting with each hex numbered. The hex location of the various locales such as lairs, are noted and arranged into an index.  This format provides a convenient way to reference detailed local information within the setting.

You can look at the map, see the hex number the location is in, and then look it up quickly in the book. It works in reverse as well. You can read about a location in the book, which will have its hex location noted in the text. Then look up where it is on the map quickly.

This allows for easy access to dozens if not hundreds of detailed locations scattered across the setting map.

Hexcrawls and Sandbox Campaigns
Sandbox campaigns are distinguished by the fact the players drive the campaign forward by their choices. While there are many types of sandbox campaigns, one common type is where the group arrives at a location on the map and begins exploring the region.

Regardless of the type of sandbox that is being run, the possibility exists that the players will decide that they need to head west instead of east in pursuit of their goals.  The ease of looking locations up makes the hexcrawl-formatted setting a useful tool for the referee trying to keep ahead of their players while running a sandbox campaign.

Quote from: Lunamancer on October 19, 2023, 12:36:04 PM
I don't care what you call it. Hexcrawling is that old at least. But yeah, lots of people sandboxed back in the day. Few hexcrawled. Sandbox sans hexcrawl is just the default campaign as far as I'm concerned.

Yup while the labels and their definitions were only invented in the mid 2000s (sandbox campaign was taken from sandbox computer games) people, including myself, were playing that way since the late 70s and early 80s.

We, the Wilderlands Boxed Set team, came up with Sandbox campaign as a way to explain what we were doing then and back in the day. Hexcrawl came later as a shorthand for a type of sandbox campaign.