Quote from: Kaldric;556749I have to say I found some of the advice in Heroes of Horror useful. Mostly the advice about just injecting some creepiness, about what inspires dread and what doesn't. I don't tend to consume a lot of horror fiction, novels or movies, so a lot of the stuff was new to me.

@TDD: Ah, but what are the names of the other 5?

Alzoll, Errtu, Ndulu, Ter-soth, Wendonai.

Quote from: Benoist;556659That said. NO, I don't think you do understand. A ghost is a 10 HD monster, meant for veteran adventurers. Either your DM made you face a Ghost way too early in your adventurer's career, OR you started the character at a WAY higher level than you should have

OR maybe they were playing a sandbox campaign?

Quote from: Bobloblah;556433Van Richten's Guide to Ghosts was (like most of Van Richten's Guides) an awesome sourcebook layered on top of the AD&D rules. Well worth it if you're planning on making this scenario a significant milestone in your campaign.

The great thing about the guides is they let you customize. So while the core AD&D ghost was quite deadly (and loads of fun) the guidebooks gave the GM a bit more control over its powers and weaknesses. Really great for constructing unique ghosts whose abilities are tied to their history (all the van richten guides are pretty good at this). Excellent GM toolbox, and helpful for challenging players who already know the monster entries.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;556848Excellent GM toolbox, and helpful for challenging players who already know the monster entries.

Exactly!

Quote from: Fifth Element;556846OR maybe they were playing a sandbox campaign?

Never have done anything but sandbox. We do use premade stuff but tweak it so much that it's just a jump point or very loose framework for us at best.  I learned that from Mage games given the modules are useless for anything but ideas. So mistakes were made.  Doesn't mean I wasn't pissed for awhile though. But those were the breaks.

I hate to keep hammering on it, but I read the inspirational story last night and...yeah, definitely a Ghost.  It just works so well on so many levels.

Quote from: Fifth Element;556846OR maybe they were playing a sandbox campaign?

Holy crap.  I believe I'm starting to understand Jibbajibba's jabs at folks who decry any notion of "balance" in RPGs while at the same time telling people they're playing wrong if they don't pay attention to game balance.

On topic: yeah, AD&D ghosts ARE pretty awesome.

Quote from: KenHR;556895Holy crap.  I believe I'm starting to understand Jibbajibba's jabs at folks who decry any notion of "balance" in RPGs while at the same time telling people they're playing wrong if they don't pay attention to game balance.

Hopefully you realize that was the very point of my post? Irony often don't translate real good in writing.

Quote from: KenHR;556895On topic: yeah, AD&D ghosts ARE pretty awesome.

That too. Very effective at what they're supposed to represent.

Quote from: Fifth Element;557002Hopefully you realize that was the very point of my post? Irony often don't translate real good in writing.

Yes.  I'm stupid, but not that stupid.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;556672post ex facto, I decided that if the party ever, ever goes into that area again the mechanics of it will be a Ghost per the AD&D rules, because it strongly mechanically fits the terror I was going for, because what it does is outside of what every other "powerful" undead does - it possess them or actually scares people to death as opposed to level drain, which is what the Ted The Caver story is all about (fear).

To be honest, I don't think you even need to put anything there.

You've scared the shit out of the player and the character already. This is good! If they go back, they're going to inch meticulously through that cave. They're going to jump at every shadow and gust of wind. And you don't need to do a thing - they'll happily wind themselves up into knots, all on their own, and you get to just sit back and ratchet up the tension. If they go back, and find out it's empty - it's going to play on their minds even more. They'll never know what happened. They will never have "closure", and that's potentially scarier.

But give them the ghost, and they can put it down. They can fight something and they can win; they can solve that cave's problem.

If you really want to run a ghost, I'd say hold it back until a potential third visit... and then dangle a good reason to make the third visit to that empty cave that creeped someone out so much but turned out to just be empty. Don't overdo it, just something subtle, just another random side-quest or rumour they hear about.

But of course, you know your table better than us; what can you run that would really terrify them?

I had a party take refuge from a storm in an abandoned church. They'd spent the day fighting undead and being ran out of an underground tunnel - not a pleasant day for them. First they searched the church, and found the priest's secret room, with his precious things (A relic, and a few of his childhood momentos). They had a meal, and settled down to sleep.

And then there was a bang on the wall.

Everyone freaked out. For the rest of the night, nobody got any sleep. Everyone was on watch.

Eventually morning came, and the storm broke. They cautiously ventured outside to find...

A rock, that had came dislodged during the storm and banged into the wall. Nothing more.

Quote from: KenHR;557028Yes.  I'm stupid, but not that stupid.

Those of us who are truly stupid do need to check sometimes.

Quote from: Ladybird;557036To be honest, I don't think you even need to put anything there.

You've scared the shit out of the player and the character already. This is good! If they go back, they're going to inch meticulously through that cave. They're going to jump at every shadow and gust of wind. And you don't need to do a thing - they'll happily wind themselves up into knots, all on their own, and you get to just sit back and ratchet up the tension. If they go back, and find out it's empty - it's going to play on their minds even more. They'll never know what happened. They will never have "closure", and that's potentially scarier.

But give them the ghost, and they can put it down. They can fight something and they can win; they can solve that cave's problem.

Well, right now they're kind of aware they can't go back and deal with it.  The crawl-space is just that; the half-elf only just fit through, in no armor, and I described it as not being big enough for a human or dwarf to fit through (it's too narrow vertically for the generally stocky dwarf, it's too narrow horizontally for a human's shoulders to fit through).  When or if they ever DO go back they're going to have to have some method of seriously widening that hole; multiple hours of digging and excavating.

They told their sponsor about it, and he might go down there himself and magic himself through the crawl-space...and never come back.  
Or alternately does come back but is possessed (and clearly nobody knows this until something goes terribly wrong).  There's lots of ways it could go.

Part of the reason I decided on a ghost was to have a being of some kind back in the tiny cave, I as a DM, wanted/needed some mechanics behind what was going on and (as I've said) the AD&D ghost just fits it so well, coupled with the story I've cribbed from...it's just too cool!  

And the thing is, if they're that determined to go poking around down there, and they think they're that tough, and they pull it off then the victory is theirs.  I certainly am not going to present them with something that says "at no point can you ever hope to overcome this" (excepting deities of various stripe).  

That's where the Ghost strikes such a fine balance for me - it's almost a "Oh, one last thing before we retire these characters" type of monster/event.  (Of course if they're high powered enough they can just hold up a holy symbol and say "Begone!" and that's the end of it...!)

QuoteIf you really want to run a ghost, I'd say hold it back until a potential third visit... and then dangle a good reason to make the third visit to that empty cave that creeped someone out so much but turned out to just be empty. Don't overdo it, just something subtle, just another random side-quest or rumour they hear about.

They're leaving well enough alone for the time being.  As I said at some point down the road I could always have the NPC magic user who sent them into the caves in the first place get too curious and go missing, then come back...changed...and prompt the party to go looking into matters.

QuoteBut of course, you know your table better than us; what can you run that would really terrify them?

That kind of goes back to the original thread, can you do horror with D&D.  I mean really scary stuff; I've always regarded I6 (and associated Ravenloft bits) as being about as scary as Diablo (the video game) when the level of scary I'm after is more like STALKER (another vidja game).  I know I "got" the person playing the half-elf (if she ever tracks this down and reads it I'm in trouble!), not sure about everyone else.

QuoteI had a party take refuge from a storm in an abandoned church. They'd spent the day fighting undead and being ran out of an underground tunnel - not a pleasant day for them. First they searched the church, and found the priest's secret room, with his precious things (A relic, and a few of his childhood momentos). They had a meal, and settled down to sleep.

And then there was a bang on the wall.

Everyone freaked out. For the rest of the night, nobody got any sleep. Everyone was on watch.

Eventually morning came, and the storm broke. They cautiously ventured outside to find...

A rock, that had came dislodged during the storm and banged into the wall. Nothing more.

Good times!  There's a whole section in the DMG on "scary noises" to have in the dungeon (or elsewhere)  from time to time to keep everyone biting their nails

Quote from: thedungeondelver;557064...when the level of scary I'm after is more like STALKER (another vidja game)....

Thumbs up!

Quote from: Planet Algol;557078Thumbs up!

The various abandoned research labs, plus the "Shelter Rooms" area underneath the NPP have a creep factor that I haven't gotten out of a computer game, ever, except for the Half Life series - and as much as I love HL, OpFor and Blue Shift and HL2, Episode 1, Episode 2 and Portal, they're not built for the creepy stuff quite the same way that STALKER is.

Anyway.

So yeah, Ghosts!

Speaking of the base power-level of the D&D1/2 "Ghost"....

How many times to you think ["Don't go THERE, it's Haunted!", scream the villagers] turned out to be kobolds/goblins?

Running into an actual corporeal spirit of a dead person, after 10-15 "ghost hunts" which actually turn up humanoid bandits, puts a little bit of context back into the Ghost's stats.