TheRPGSite

How much does it affect you if a gaming company repeatedly FAILS to get its releases out on time?

(Cubicle 7 guys, you should pay a lot of attention to this thread! You're well on the way to becoming the next Palladium with books coming out six months to one year late on a regular basis; and trust me, while Chris Birch is a nice guy, there's only room for one Kevin Siembieda out there! Don't imagine that because Siembieda has got away with it since forever (and has some books that have been literally "in the pipeline" for 20 years now), that you will be able to do the same. You're a different kind of company, pushing different kinds of games, and right now you're pushing your luck.)

So, general public: what's better, for a company to set a release date that's a long way away and actually MAKE their date, or to set a release date and then have to push it back three or four times till they release seven or eight months after they were supposed to?
How many times can a gamebook be delayed where you will tolerate it? How much does it affect your opinion of the company? What will you do about it?

RPGPundit

I prefer it when companies are pessimistic about dates (or indeed either don't announce them at all, or only announce them when the product's off to the printer). That way, it's always a nice surprise when things come out early.

If it improves the quality of the product, then I'd rather have it be late.

If it reduces the amount of errata, then I'd rather have it be late.

If I am low on spare cash, I would rather have it be late.

So let products be late.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279617How much does it affect you if a gaming company repeatedly FAILS to get its releases out on time?

Not at all.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279617So, general public: what's better, for a company to set a release date that's a long way away and actually MAKE their date, or to set a release date and then have to push it back three or four times till they release seven or eight months after they were supposed to?

I think the best practice is to set a realistic release date and make it, but I would rather have a company miss a stated release date and blow it than have them release on-date and have the product suffer.

Release dates simply shouldn't be set until you've enough of the product complete to meaningfully be able to predict completion. Their market utility depends on correctness, and if they cannot be correct, it is better to be simply absent.

If a company is late releasing, it's not really going to trouble me, or keep me from buying a quality product. It'll make me think they're disorganized and unprofessional, but I judge purchases on the work itself, not the company producing it; many of the best roleplaying companies out there are disorganized and unprofessional.

I play and collect, with many, many books vying for my attention each year. Whilst I understand that delays are unavoidable in publishing I find it beyond irksome when a  book is moved from a firm release date to "coming soon" without a word of explanation. At best it gets pushed to the bottom of my shopping list, although I'm far more likely to give up and buy it from the second hand market at a much later date.

Quote from: Engine;279633Release dates simply shouldn't be set until you've enough of the product complete to meaningfully be able to predict completion.

In software, we sometimes call this (especially if you're a McConnell adherent) the Cone of Uncertainty (http://www.theflightpad.com/post/Including-Uncertainty-in-Estimates-of-Software2c-Fort-Building2c-and-anything-including-a-Toddler.aspx).

My gut says the idea is early on in development when the dates are announced - and the uncertainty is in it's worst phase.

But that's just a guess based on a lot of estimating of software projects and having to learn to adjust for the Cone - and seeing that Cone happen in a lot of other places outside of software.

(edit: added link I meant to include - d'oh!)

Quote from: RPGPundit;279617How much does it affect you if a gaming company repeatedly FAILS to get its releases out on time?

Zero.  I just want great product.  Get it to me this year or two years from now, but make it great.  

I am a Blizzard fan and their release dates are April Fool's jokes, but when their games arrive, they're wonderful so I don't care.   My only problem is when an exciting sounding game gets crushed after being heavily hyped...AKA StarCraft Ghost

Quote from: RPGPundit;279617How many times can a gamebook be delayed where you will tolerate it? How much does it affect your opinion of the company? What will you do about it?

A game can be 20 years late, but if its awesome on arrival, I will buy it.   My opinion of a company 100% depends on its ability to make games that I enjoy.   I couldn't give a shit if the entire company was child molesting neo-nazi terrorist slave traders, I just want an awesome game.

Quote from: James J Skach;279638In software, we sometimes call this (especially if you're a McConnell adherent) the Cone of Uncertainty (http://www.theflightpad.com/post/Including-Uncertainty-in-Estimates-of-Software2c-Fort-Building2c-and-anything-including-a-Toddler.aspx).

Exactly right, and the principle [as McConnell notes] applies to a large array of different products. Now, everyone has different reasons for needing to supply release dates [shareholder opinion, public attention, printer preparation], and thus different requirements for release dates, but as a rule, I favor not setting a solid date until the 0.8x/1.25x curve hinge; prior to that, you can set quarter goals ["Yeah, we'll have this out before Q1 2009..."] but not make them solid ["...probably."] and I recommend people inflate those estimates by a quarter, unless [as is the case when dealing with shareholders] doing so would get you blown up.

I like the system where publishers announce products when they're at the printer.

Seanchai

One good guideline is to assume that the last 20% of a project will take more time than the first 80%.

Anyway, it doesn't matter how great a game is if it never gets released. And I've seen many projects get delayed (or canceled) in a quest for perfection, only to miss the mark anyway and be replaced by a revised product soon after. This is so widespread in the RPG market that many people (claim they) will wait until a 2nd edition is released before buying.

Both customers and investors are also far more likely to give you their cash if you show you can execute on a plan in a timely manner, even if that plan results in a slightly flawed product. When you miss, or avoid setting release dates because you are incapable of measuring them, it implies a lack of understand of your core business processes. And large companies would not (at least try to) operate under this model if it wasn't profitable.

Then again there are markets where customers will wait forever for a product, and only bitch about the delay because they want it so badly.

For RPGs, distributors require solicitations 4 months ahead of the proposed release date. Usually, the product in question is in the final stages of development at this point, so it is rather easy for a delay to crop in due to issues with editing, art, layout, and printing.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;279696One good guideline is to assume that the last 20% of a project will take more time than the first 80%.

I think that's a very important truth, and one that a lot of gaming companies seem to fail to get.  And its forgiveable if they fail to understand this ONCE, but what I can't grasp is how some companies seem to make the same mistake over and over and over again.

RPGPundit

I'm usually patient, unless it's part of a trilogy or something and I have the first two parts but then the last is delayed 2 years.  Or if it's something I need to have a "complete" game.   But if I need something else for it to be complete, I probably won't like it much in the first place...

Quote from: RPGPundit;279617How much does it affect you if a gaming company repeatedly FAILS to get its releases out on time?

It doesn't affect me at all, in any way that I can think of. I've never even known when a release date was coming.

QuoteSo, general public: what's better, for a company to set a release date that's a long way away and actually MAKE their date, or to set a release date and then have to push it back three or four times till they release seven or eight months after they were supposed to?

If I had to choose, I guess safe is better than sorry.

QuoteHow many times can a gamebook be delayed where you will tolerate it?

No idea, I've never had to wait, so I have no idea.

QuoteHow much does it affect your opinion of the company?

I don't read about the companies. I couldn't pick Gary Gygax out from Kevin whatever his name is. Generally the more I learn about the people who write the books I enjoy, the less I like them. So fuck it, I just don't read about them, since they don't affect my game play anyways.

QuoteWhat will you do about it?

As always, speak with my wallet, and participation.

There have been a couple times when I was so excited about a game coming out that I scheduled sessions based on release date. But really--I've been around the block enough times that I have to own that. I haven't really had any reason to be surprised by a game missing its date since Castle Falkenstein.

It's annoying though not decisive.  I probably buy less Troll Lord Games product than I would if they were reliable; but they treated me so well the one time I complained to them about a product that I'll still get their stuff.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279617Cubicle 7 guys, you should pay a lot of attention to this thread!

Yeah, Cubicle 7, pay attention:

Quote from: Warthur;279624I prefer it when companies are pessimistic about dates (or indeed either don't announce them at all, or only announce them when the product's off to the printer).

Quote from: PaladinCA;279626So let products be late.

Quote from: Engine;279633I think the best practice is to set a realistic release date and make it, but I would rather have a company miss a stated release date and blow it than have them release on-date and have the product suffer.

Quote from: Drew;279636Whilst I understand that delays are unavoidable in publishing I find it beyond irksome when a  book is moved from a firm release date to "coming soon" without a word of explanation.

Quote from: Spinachcat;279649Zero.  I just want great product.  Get it to me this year or two years from now, but make it great.

Quote from: Seanchai;279671I like the system where publishers announce products when they're at the printer.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;279696Anyway, it doesn't matter how great a game is if it never gets released.

Quote from: Zachary The First;279740I'm usually patient, unless it's part of a trilogy or something and I have the first two parts but then the last is delayed 2 years.

Quote from: Serious Paul;279745It doesn't affect me at all, in any way that I can think of.

Quote from: stu2000;279763There have been a couple times when I was so excited about a game coming out that I scheduled sessions based on release date. But really--I've been around the block enough times that I have to own that.

Quote from: S'mon;279786It's annoying though not decisive.

So there, Cubicle 7 guys!

lol @ Engine

Delays don’t bother me much unless the product we do get feels like the extra time wasn’t used wisely, i.e. it still feels incomplete. For the most part, I’d rather have a complete product over a rushed one.

Well, it certainly is education for them. It tells them that gamers are a bunch of pussies you can walk all over, and that they are being invited to be incompetent and unprofessional. That's fine, if that's clearly the message, and it appears to be the case here, they should take that information and use it in determining their priorities and just how essential good company conduct is.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;279804Well, it certainly is education for them. It tells them that gamers are a bunch of pussies you can walk all over, and that they are being invited to be incompetent and unprofessional. That's fine, if that's clearly the message, and it appears to be the case here, they should take that information and use it in determining their priorities and just how essential good company conduct is.

RPGPundit

Or you, you know, it could be that people do understand that shit happens and if reasonable things are being done to overcome it they'll deal with it.

It's not like those of us who still post on this site are a "bunch of pussies" that "you can walk all over" and that invite you to be "incompetent and unprofessional" just because we have to deal with the occasional site issues like server error pages, slowness, double-postings or other less than perfect site performance. Most folks are going to give you some time to get it squared away before they delete the favorite because it has become more annoying than not to read or post here.

It's not all that much different with those they want a product from.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279804Well, it certainly is education for them. It tells them that gamers are a bunch of pussies you can walk all over, and that they are being invited to be incompetent and unprofessional.

Most people think sour grapes make vinegar, but in reality, they produce whine.

Last time, I tried to quote the essentials of every post made, without cherry-picking, but this time, let me include some more particular quotes:

Quote from: PaladinCA;279626If it improves the quality of the product....If it reduces the amount of errata, I would rather have it be late.

Quote from: Spinachcat;279649I just want great product.  Get it to me this year or two years from now, but make it great.

The priority, particularly in a non-time-sensitive field like recreation, is on quality, not on timeliness. The allusion to Blizzard is strong enough to be meaningful: yes, people will complain if they're anxiously awaiting something that hasn't yet come, but they'll also buy it if it's good enough. But many people also expressed their dismay at inaccurate release dates, preferring that such dates be absent or overestimated rather than constantly pushed-back. That's an important lesson to take from this, too.

For my own part, I've never seen a strong correlation between "professionalism" in this context and the eventual quality of the game. Given that it's the game's quality - ie how much fun I have playing it - that truly matters to me, lack of professionalism doesn't impact my satisfaction with the game. Like I say, many of my favorite books were published by companies full of brilliant artists, and idiotic businessmen. I've no difficulties with that, personally.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279804Well, it certainly is education for them. It tells them that gamers are a bunch of pussies you can walk all over, and that they are being invited to be incompetent and unprofessional. That's fine, if that's clearly the message, and it appears to be the case here, they should take that information and use it in determining their priorities and just how essential good company conduct is.

I think the picture's a bit more mixed than that - Seanchai and I both said that we prefer it if publishers simply refrain from making any promises until the product's at the printer. So long as the core book is kept in print I honestly don't give a toss whether there's a hundred supplements with announced release dates or none.

Quote from: Warthur;279814So long as the core book is kept in print I honestly don't give a toss whether there's a hundred supplements with announced release dates or none.

I'm with you (again) on the "announced released dates" part. I think RPG companies need to produce something every quarter or so, but if they just give me a preview and say, "We're working on a monster book, a magic book, and an adventure," I'm happy with that.

I think the core issue here is customers' expectations. And those are based on clear, open, and timely communication. (And professional communication, as well).

Seanchai

Quote from: RPGPundit;279804Well, it certainly is education for them. It tells them that gamers are a bunch of pussies you can walk all over, and that they are being invited to be incompetent and unprofessional.
RPGPundit

Or it could just be showing them that some of us have more important things to worry about than IF an RPG product comes out late or not. I could personally care less when something is released, as long as it is well written.

The strategy of announcing products when they are in a final edit would certainly be a wise sales tactic though.

I am going to echo some of the sentiments already stated here- I would rather that the announcement be made once the product is completed and being printed.  I would rather be surprised with a book hitting the shelves than waiting and see date after date being pushed back.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279804It tells them that gamers are a bunch of pussies you can walk all over, and that they are being invited to be incompetent and unprofessional.

Wow, that's pissy.

If a company delivers lukewarm crap on deadline with a big smile and a happy handshake, they won't get my money.

My bottom line is I want great games.

OK, I see that most of you do not care about a delay if it leads to a better product, but how exactly are we defining 'better'?

Regardless it's usually more important for a customer to be happy with their decision to purchase than to be happy with the product itself as far as satisfaction is concerned. And delays can affect that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279738I think that's a very important truth, and one that a lot of gaming companies seem to fail to get.

This truth is also mentioned in the Starblazer Adventure designer's notes.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279804That's fine, if that's clearly the message, and it appears to be the case here, they should take that information and use it in determining their priorities and just how essential good company conduct is.

I've been getting increasingly pissed off over poor conduct from both companies and customers these days. Respect is one of those things that has to be earned, and that's kinda tricky to do when both sides keep dropping the ball.

Quote from: Engine;279809The priority, particularly in a non-time-sensitive field like recreation, is on quality, not on timeliness.

Not if you want to make money.

Timing is everything, and companies like Apple, Microsoft (Halo anyone), Sony, and Nintendo use announcements and release dates to make far more profit than they would otherwise. You also really don't want to miss that holiday window for recreational products.

Quote from: Engine;279809For my own part, I've never seen a strong correlation between "professionalism" in this context and the eventual quality of the game.

Because there isn't one outside of what I described above.

Quote from: Engine;279809Given that it's the game's quality - ie how much fun I have playing it - that truly matters to me, lack of professionalism doesn't impact my satisfaction with the game.

But I can almost guarantee you cannot clearly tell me WHY a particular game is fun. In fact, research implies that being able to do so may actually result in you being less satisfied with the game over time.

Quote from: Engine;279809Like I say, many of my favorite books were published by companies full of brilliant artists, and idiotic businessmen. I've no difficulties with that, personally.

Well, in this industry, those brilliant artists and idiotic businessmen are often one and the same.

I think it's important to realize that there is no single most important factor in a successful business. Sadly, people usually tend to overvalue the segment of the business they are, or wish to be, involved in.

Quote from: CavScout;279805Or you, you know, it could be that people do understand that shit happens and if reasonable things are being done to overcome it they'll deal with it.

It's not like those of us who still post on this site are a "bunch of pussies" that "you can walk all over" and that invite you to be "incompetent and unprofessional" just because we have to deal with the occasional site issues like server error pages, slowness, double-postings or other less than perfect site performance. Most folks are going to give you some time to get it squared away before they delete the favorite because it has become more annoying than not to read or post here.

It's not all that much different with those they want a product from.

On the one hand, I must say "touche" to that one. A good rhetorical hit on your part.

On the other, I would riposte by saying that I don't expect that the correct response to a product being delayed would be "well, fuck it, I'm never buying anything from these assholes ever"; I'm suggesting that repeated delays that go well beyond the level of what would be reasonably expected, particularly if this is a repetition of similar mistakes being done over and over again, is very likely to lead to a reduction in sales.

To use your comparison, I would think someone was something of a dick if they came to this site, found it offline once or twice, and decided to give up on it. On the other hand, I am extremely concerned about the technical problems this site is encountering, and we (Brett and I) are on the verge of deciding to switch a new server, in no small part because I DO assume that regular repeated errors of this type will lead to a decrease in site activity overall.   Like I said in another thread, I think that ongoing and unresolved technical errors are more likely to lead to long-term harm to the population of these forums than all of the controversy you or jackalope caused put together.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Seanchai;279836I think the core issue here is customers' expectations. And those are based on clear, open, and timely communication. (And professional communication, as well).

Seanchai

Well yes, that's kind of the core of my beef with delays; I understand that things happen, and that a product can end up being pushed back a few weeks.  But when a company decides to announce a release date when they're really too early in the design process to do so, and then end up pushing back that release date over and over again until months or years have passed, but keep setting new release dates anyways, I consider that a kind of dishonesty on their part (it might not be an intentional dishonesty, but its still a dishonesty based on incompetence).

RPGPundit

Quote from: chaosvoyager;279897This truth is also mentioned in the Starblazer Adventure designer's notes.

And yet its a lesson that C7 seems not to have gotten yet. They're still relatively new as a "mid tier" company, so I'm hoping that in the future they'll be more cautious about these things.

QuoteTiming is everything, and companies like Apple, Microsoft (Halo anyone), Sony, and Nintendo use announcements and release dates to make far more profit than they would otherwise. You also really don't want to miss that holiday window for recreational products.

This. Often delays mean that you miss the key window for product release (in our business, one example would be if you don't actually get something out in time for Gencon); and if a game is based on some kind of license, that can be even worse; releasing a game a month after a hit movie comes out is going to lead to very different levels of sales than if you don't get the game out until the movie is already in the bargain bin at wal-marts.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;279909On the one hand, I must say "touche" to that one. A good rhetorical hit on your part.

On the other, I would riposte by saying that I don't expect that the correct response to a product being delayed would be "well, fuck it, I'm never buying anything from these assholes ever"; I'm suggesting that repeated delays that go well beyond the level of what would be reasonably expected, particularly if this is a repetition of similar mistakes being done over and over again, is very likely to lead to a reduction in sales.

To use your comparison, I would think someone was something of a dick if they came to this site, found it offline once or twice, and decided to give up on it. On the other hand, I am extremely concerned about the technical problems this site is encountering, and we (Brett and I) are on the verge of deciding to switch a new server, in no small part because I DO assume that regular repeated errors of this type will lead to a decrease in site activity overall.

And if a publisher is always late and has less than stellar products, I expect them to be affected as well.  If the product is top-notch and relevant, even after delays, I expect the product to do well.

QuoteLike I said in another thread, I think that ongoing and unresolved technical errors are more likely to lead to long-term harm to the population of these forums than all of the controversy you or jackalope caused put together.

It's a sad commentary if "controversy" gets folks moderated here. That will harm your site far more than occasional technical glitches.

It wasn't the controversy what did it, it was the disruption. The statement above was in response to people who were talking about how the controversy should be the issue, which I disagree with.
But this isn't the place to talk about this, if you want to discuss it, discuss it in the Help forum.

RPGPundit

EDITED to add: Yes, it was fine that you responded ONCE, just stop now.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279935It wasn't the controversy what did it, it was the disruption. The statement above was in response to people who were talking about how the controversy should be the issue, which I disagree with.
But this isn't the place to talk about this, if you want to discuss it, discuss it in the Help forum.

My apologies. Since you put it out there, I figured it was appropriate to respond.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279804Well, it certainly is education for them. It tells them that gamers are a bunch of pussies you can walk all over, and that they are being invited to be incompetent and unprofessional.

Seriously?

I mean maybe some "Rogue Publisher" out there is looking to take advantage of me, and my wallet, but that seems a little hard to swallow.

 

Quote from: PaladinCA;279841Or it could just be showing them that some of us have more important things to worry about than IF an RPG product comes out late or not. I could personally care less when something is released, as long as it is well written.

A good bet.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;279897OK, I see that most of you do not care about a delay if it leads to a better product, but how exactly are we defining 'better'?

Good question, but do you think there is a single answer? I don't think so.

QuoteI've been getting increasingly pissed off over poor conduct from both companies and customers these days. Respect is one of those things that has to be earned, and that's kinda tricky to do when both sides keep dropping the ball.

I'm not involved enough to see all of this, but I can see your point, and agree with it at first glance.

QuoteTiming is everything, and companies like Apple, Microsoft (Halo anyone), Sony, and Nintendo use announcements and release dates to make far more profit than they would otherwise. You also really don't want to miss that holiday window for recreational products.

However, I'd submit that few of the people out there publishing RPG's have the kind of money those companies do to study their market. Or the kind of sales to justify it.

QuoteI think it's important to realize that there is no single most important factor in a successful business. Sadly, people usually tend to overvalue the segment of the business they are, or wish to be, involved in.

I think that's very true.

I've got to say, I am much more irked by silence when a release date is blown than if a release is delayed and a conscientious effort is made by the publisher to inform the customers and fans as to the nature of the delay.

A simple statement to the effect of "Sorry, our printer went belly-up and we're looking for a new one as quickly as possible. We're having to push back the release date to the next quarter" is infinitely preferable to just seeing the date come and go with no explanation. Or, worse, with the company principals yakking it up on the company message board assiduously ignoring requests for info on why such-and-such a product hasn't hit the shelves yet.

Quote from: Thulcondar;280042I've got to say, I am much more irked by silence when a release date is blown than if a release is delayed and a conscientious effort is made by the publisher to inform the customers and fans as to the nature of the delay.

A simple statement to the effect of "Sorry, our printer went belly-up and we're looking for a new one as quickly as possible. We're having to push back the release date to the next quarter" is infinitely preferable to just seeing the date come and go with no explanation. Or, worse, with the company principals yakking it up on the company message board assiduously ignoring requests for info on why such-and-such a product hasn't hit the shelves yet.

Yes, you're quite right about that. It doesn't look good when you blow a release date; but its much much worse if you blow the date and then go completely silent about it rather than manning up and explaining the situation.  But you also have to be careful NOT to specify a new release date at that point until you're really sure you'll be able to get it out that time.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Serious Paul;279991Good question, but do you think there is a single answer?

No, but I don't care. I just want ANY valid answer, because claiming to prefer that a book be late if it leads to a better product is meaningless without it.

Quote from: Serious Paul;279991However, I'd submit that few of the people out there publishing RPG's have the kind of money those companies do to study their market. Or the kind of sales to justify it.

Quite possible, but do these companies do business this way because they are big, or are they big because they do business that way? And many small businesses I know are run as small businesses, which limits their potential for growth, even if the owners seek it.

Then again, growth is a bit overrated.

I rarely pay attention to release dates, so it's a non-issue for me.  If I did, I'd be fine with the company waiting to announce it until it was being printed.