It's annoying though not decisive.  I probably buy less Troll Lord Games product than I would if they were reliable; but they treated me so well the one time I complained to them about a product that I'll still get their stuff.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279617Cubicle 7 guys, you should pay a lot of attention to this thread!

Yeah, Cubicle 7, pay attention:

Quote from: Warthur;279624I prefer it when companies are pessimistic about dates (or indeed either don't announce them at all, or only announce them when the product's off to the printer).

Quote from: PaladinCA;279626So let products be late.

Quote from: Engine;279633I think the best practice is to set a realistic release date and make it, but I would rather have a company miss a stated release date and blow it than have them release on-date and have the product suffer.

Quote from: Drew;279636Whilst I understand that delays are unavoidable in publishing I find it beyond irksome when a  book is moved from a firm release date to "coming soon" without a word of explanation.

Quote from: Spinachcat;279649Zero.  I just want great product.  Get it to me this year or two years from now, but make it great.

Quote from: Seanchai;279671I like the system where publishers announce products when they're at the printer.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;279696Anyway, it doesn't matter how great a game is if it never gets released.

Quote from: Zachary The First;279740I'm usually patient, unless it's part of a trilogy or something and I have the first two parts but then the last is delayed 2 years.

Quote from: Serious Paul;279745It doesn't affect me at all, in any way that I can think of.

Quote from: stu2000;279763There have been a couple times when I was so excited about a game coming out that I scheduled sessions based on release date. But really--I've been around the block enough times that I have to own that.

Quote from: S'mon;279786It's annoying though not decisive.

So there, Cubicle 7 guys!

lol @ Engine

Delays don’t bother me much unless the product we do get feels like the extra time wasn’t used wisely, i.e. it still feels incomplete. For the most part, I’d rather have a complete product over a rushed one.

Well, it certainly is education for them. It tells them that gamers are a bunch of pussies you can walk all over, and that they are being invited to be incompetent and unprofessional. That's fine, if that's clearly the message, and it appears to be the case here, they should take that information and use it in determining their priorities and just how essential good company conduct is.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;279804Well, it certainly is education for them. It tells them that gamers are a bunch of pussies you can walk all over, and that they are being invited to be incompetent and unprofessional. That's fine, if that's clearly the message, and it appears to be the case here, they should take that information and use it in determining their priorities and just how essential good company conduct is.

RPGPundit

Or you, you know, it could be that people do understand that shit happens and if reasonable things are being done to overcome it they'll deal with it.

It's not like those of us who still post on this site are a "bunch of pussies" that "you can walk all over" and that invite you to be "incompetent and unprofessional" just because we have to deal with the occasional site issues like server error pages, slowness, double-postings or other less than perfect site performance. Most folks are going to give you some time to get it squared away before they delete the favorite because it has become more annoying than not to read or post here.

It's not all that much different with those they want a product from.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279804Well, it certainly is education for them. It tells them that gamers are a bunch of pussies you can walk all over, and that they are being invited to be incompetent and unprofessional.

Most people think sour grapes make vinegar, but in reality, they produce whine.

Last time, I tried to quote the essentials of every post made, without cherry-picking, but this time, let me include some more particular quotes:

Quote from: PaladinCA;279626If it improves the quality of the product....If it reduces the amount of errata, I would rather have it be late.

Quote from: Spinachcat;279649I just want great product.  Get it to me this year or two years from now, but make it great.

The priority, particularly in a non-time-sensitive field like recreation, is on quality, not on timeliness. The allusion to Blizzard is strong enough to be meaningful: yes, people will complain if they're anxiously awaiting something that hasn't yet come, but they'll also buy it if it's good enough. But many people also expressed their dismay at inaccurate release dates, preferring that such dates be absent or overestimated rather than constantly pushed-back. That's an important lesson to take from this, too.

For my own part, I've never seen a strong correlation between "professionalism" in this context and the eventual quality of the game. Given that it's the game's quality - ie how much fun I have playing it - that truly matters to me, lack of professionalism doesn't impact my satisfaction with the game. Like I say, many of my favorite books were published by companies full of brilliant artists, and idiotic businessmen. I've no difficulties with that, personally.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279804Well, it certainly is education for them. It tells them that gamers are a bunch of pussies you can walk all over, and that they are being invited to be incompetent and unprofessional. That's fine, if that's clearly the message, and it appears to be the case here, they should take that information and use it in determining their priorities and just how essential good company conduct is.

I think the picture's a bit more mixed than that - Seanchai and I both said that we prefer it if publishers simply refrain from making any promises until the product's at the printer. So long as the core book is kept in print I honestly don't give a toss whether there's a hundred supplements with announced release dates or none.

Quote from: Warthur;279814So long as the core book is kept in print I honestly don't give a toss whether there's a hundred supplements with announced release dates or none.

I'm with you (again) on the "announced released dates" part. I think RPG companies need to produce something every quarter or so, but if they just give me a preview and say, "We're working on a monster book, a magic book, and an adventure," I'm happy with that.

I think the core issue here is customers' expectations. And those are based on clear, open, and timely communication. (And professional communication, as well).

Seanchai

Quote from: RPGPundit;279804Well, it certainly is education for them. It tells them that gamers are a bunch of pussies you can walk all over, and that they are being invited to be incompetent and unprofessional.
RPGPundit

Or it could just be showing them that some of us have more important things to worry about than IF an RPG product comes out late or not. I could personally care less when something is released, as long as it is well written.

The strategy of announcing products when they are in a final edit would certainly be a wise sales tactic though.

I am going to echo some of the sentiments already stated here- I would rather that the announcement be made once the product is completed and being printed.  I would rather be surprised with a book hitting the shelves than waiting and see date after date being pushed back.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279804It tells them that gamers are a bunch of pussies you can walk all over, and that they are being invited to be incompetent and unprofessional.

Wow, that's pissy.

If a company delivers lukewarm crap on deadline with a big smile and a happy handshake, they won't get my money.

My bottom line is I want great games.

OK, I see that most of you do not care about a delay if it leads to a better product, but how exactly are we defining 'better'?

Regardless it's usually more important for a customer to be happy with their decision to purchase than to be happy with the product itself as far as satisfaction is concerned. And delays can affect that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279738I think that's a very important truth, and one that a lot of gaming companies seem to fail to get.

This truth is also mentioned in the Starblazer Adventure designer's notes.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279804That's fine, if that's clearly the message, and it appears to be the case here, they should take that information and use it in determining their priorities and just how essential good company conduct is.

I've been getting increasingly pissed off over poor conduct from both companies and customers these days. Respect is one of those things that has to be earned, and that's kinda tricky to do when both sides keep dropping the ball.

Quote from: Engine;279809The priority, particularly in a non-time-sensitive field like recreation, is on quality, not on timeliness.

Not if you want to make money.

Timing is everything, and companies like Apple, Microsoft (Halo anyone), Sony, and Nintendo use announcements and release dates to make far more profit than they would otherwise. You also really don't want to miss that holiday window for recreational products.

Quote from: Engine;279809For my own part, I've never seen a strong correlation between "professionalism" in this context and the eventual quality of the game.

Because there isn't one outside of what I described above.

Quote from: Engine;279809Given that it's the game's quality - ie how much fun I have playing it - that truly matters to me, lack of professionalism doesn't impact my satisfaction with the game.

But I can almost guarantee you cannot clearly tell me WHY a particular game is fun. In fact, research implies that being able to do so may actually result in you being less satisfied with the game over time.

Quote from: Engine;279809Like I say, many of my favorite books were published by companies full of brilliant artists, and idiotic businessmen. I've no difficulties with that, personally.

Well, in this industry, those brilliant artists and idiotic businessmen are often one and the same.

I think it's important to realize that there is no single most important factor in a successful business. Sadly, people usually tend to overvalue the segment of the business they are, or wish to be, involved in.

Quote from: CavScout;279805Or you, you know, it could be that people do understand that shit happens and if reasonable things are being done to overcome it they'll deal with it.

It's not like those of us who still post on this site are a "bunch of pussies" that "you can walk all over" and that invite you to be "incompetent and unprofessional" just because we have to deal with the occasional site issues like server error pages, slowness, double-postings or other less than perfect site performance. Most folks are going to give you some time to get it squared away before they delete the favorite because it has become more annoying than not to read or post here.

It's not all that much different with those they want a product from.

On the one hand, I must say "touche" to that one. A good rhetorical hit on your part.

On the other, I would riposte by saying that I don't expect that the correct response to a product being delayed would be "well, fuck it, I'm never buying anything from these assholes ever"; I'm suggesting that repeated delays that go well beyond the level of what would be reasonably expected, particularly if this is a repetition of similar mistakes being done over and over again, is very likely to lead to a reduction in sales.

To use your comparison, I would think someone was something of a dick if they came to this site, found it offline once or twice, and decided to give up on it. On the other hand, I am extremely concerned about the technical problems this site is encountering, and we (Brett and I) are on the verge of deciding to switch a new server, in no small part because I DO assume that regular repeated errors of this type will lead to a decrease in site activity overall.   Like I said in another thread, I think that ongoing and unresolved technical errors are more likely to lead to long-term harm to the population of these forums than all of the controversy you or jackalope caused put together.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Seanchai;279836I think the core issue here is customers' expectations. And those are based on clear, open, and timely communication. (And professional communication, as well).

Seanchai

Well yes, that's kind of the core of my beef with delays; I understand that things happen, and that a product can end up being pushed back a few weeks.  But when a company decides to announce a release date when they're really too early in the design process to do so, and then end up pushing back that release date over and over again until months or years have passed, but keep setting new release dates anyways, I consider that a kind of dishonesty on their part (it might not be an intentional dishonesty, but its still a dishonesty based on incompetence).

RPGPundit

Quote from: chaosvoyager;279897This truth is also mentioned in the Starblazer Adventure designer's notes.

And yet its a lesson that C7 seems not to have gotten yet. They're still relatively new as a "mid tier" company, so I'm hoping that in the future they'll be more cautious about these things.

QuoteTiming is everything, and companies like Apple, Microsoft (Halo anyone), Sony, and Nintendo use announcements and release dates to make far more profit than they would otherwise. You also really don't want to miss that holiday window for recreational products.

This. Often delays mean that you miss the key window for product release (in our business, one example would be if you don't actually get something out in time for Gencon); and if a game is based on some kind of license, that can be even worse; releasing a game a month after a hit movie comes out is going to lead to very different levels of sales than if you don't get the game out until the movie is already in the bargain bin at wal-marts.

RPGPundit