How much does it affect you if a gaming company repeatedly FAILS to get its releases out on time?

(Cubicle 7 guys, you should pay a lot of attention to this thread! You're well on the way to becoming the next Palladium with books coming out six months to one year late on a regular basis; and trust me, while Chris Birch is a nice guy, there's only room for one Kevin Siembieda out there! Don't imagine that because Siembieda has got away with it since forever (and has some books that have been literally "in the pipeline" for 20 years now), that you will be able to do the same. You're a different kind of company, pushing different kinds of games, and right now you're pushing your luck.)

So, general public: what's better, for a company to set a release date that's a long way away and actually MAKE their date, or to set a release date and then have to push it back three or four times till they release seven or eight months after they were supposed to?
How many times can a gamebook be delayed where you will tolerate it? How much does it affect your opinion of the company? What will you do about it?

RPGPundit

I prefer it when companies are pessimistic about dates (or indeed either don't announce them at all, or only announce them when the product's off to the printer). That way, it's always a nice surprise when things come out early.

If it improves the quality of the product, then I'd rather have it be late.

If it reduces the amount of errata, then I'd rather have it be late.

If I am low on spare cash, I would rather have it be late.

So let products be late.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279617How much does it affect you if a gaming company repeatedly FAILS to get its releases out on time?

Not at all.

Quote from: RPGPundit;279617So, general public: what's better, for a company to set a release date that's a long way away and actually MAKE their date, or to set a release date and then have to push it back three or four times till they release seven or eight months after they were supposed to?

I think the best practice is to set a realistic release date and make it, but I would rather have a company miss a stated release date and blow it than have them release on-date and have the product suffer.

Release dates simply shouldn't be set until you've enough of the product complete to meaningfully be able to predict completion. Their market utility depends on correctness, and if they cannot be correct, it is better to be simply absent.

If a company is late releasing, it's not really going to trouble me, or keep me from buying a quality product. It'll make me think they're disorganized and unprofessional, but I judge purchases on the work itself, not the company producing it; many of the best roleplaying companies out there are disorganized and unprofessional.

I play and collect, with many, many books vying for my attention each year. Whilst I understand that delays are unavoidable in publishing I find it beyond irksome when a  book is moved from a firm release date to "coming soon" without a word of explanation. At best it gets pushed to the bottom of my shopping list, although I'm far more likely to give up and buy it from the second hand market at a much later date.

Quote from: Engine;279633Release dates simply shouldn't be set until you've enough of the product complete to meaningfully be able to predict completion.

In software, we sometimes call this (especially if you're a McConnell adherent) the Cone of Uncertainty.

My gut says the idea is early on in development when the dates are announced - and the uncertainty is in it's worst phase.

But that's just a guess based on a lot of estimating of software projects and having to learn to adjust for the Cone - and seeing that Cone happen in a lot of other places outside of software.

(edit: added link I meant to include - d'oh!)

Quote from: RPGPundit;279617How much does it affect you if a gaming company repeatedly FAILS to get its releases out on time?

Zero.  I just want great product.  Get it to me this year or two years from now, but make it great.  

I am a Blizzard fan and their release dates are April Fool's jokes, but when their games arrive, they're wonderful so I don't care.   My only problem is when an exciting sounding game gets crushed after being heavily hyped...AKA StarCraft Ghost

Quote from: RPGPundit;279617How many times can a gamebook be delayed where you will tolerate it? How much does it affect your opinion of the company? What will you do about it?

A game can be 20 years late, but if its awesome on arrival, I will buy it.   My opinion of a company 100% depends on its ability to make games that I enjoy.   I couldn't give a shit if the entire company was child molesting neo-nazi terrorist slave traders, I just want an awesome game.

Quote from: James J Skach;279638In software, we sometimes call this (especially if you're a McConnell adherent) the Cone of Uncertainty.

Exactly right, and the principle [as McConnell notes] applies to a large array of different products. Now, everyone has different reasons for needing to supply release dates [shareholder opinion, public attention, printer preparation], and thus different requirements for release dates, but as a rule, I favor not setting a solid date until the 0.8x/1.25x curve hinge; prior to that, you can set quarter goals ["Yeah, we'll have this out before Q1 2009..."] but not make them solid ["...probably."] and I recommend people inflate those estimates by a quarter, unless [as is the case when dealing with shareholders] doing so would get you blown up.

I like the system where publishers announce products when they're at the printer.

Seanchai

One good guideline is to assume that the last 20% of a project will take more time than the first 80%.

Anyway, it doesn't matter how great a game is if it never gets released. And I've seen many projects get delayed (or canceled) in a quest for perfection, only to miss the mark anyway and be replaced by a revised product soon after. This is so widespread in the RPG market that many people (claim they) will wait until a 2nd edition is released before buying.

Both customers and investors are also far more likely to give you their cash if you show you can execute on a plan in a timely manner, even if that plan results in a slightly flawed product. When you miss, or avoid setting release dates because you are incapable of measuring them, it implies a lack of understand of your core business processes. And large companies would not (at least try to) operate under this model if it wasn't profitable.

Then again there are markets where customers will wait forever for a product, and only bitch about the delay because they want it so badly.

For RPGs, distributors require solicitations 4 months ahead of the proposed release date. Usually, the product in question is in the final stages of development at this point, so it is rather easy for a delay to crop in due to issues with editing, art, layout, and printing.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;279696One good guideline is to assume that the last 20% of a project will take more time than the first 80%.

I think that's a very important truth, and one that a lot of gaming companies seem to fail to get.  And its forgiveable if they fail to understand this ONCE, but what I can't grasp is how some companies seem to make the same mistake over and over and over again.

RPGPundit

I'm usually patient, unless it's part of a trilogy or something and I have the first two parts but then the last is delayed 2 years.  Or if it's something I need to have a "complete" game.   But if I need something else for it to be complete, I probably won't like it much in the first place...

Quote from: RPGPundit;279617How much does it affect you if a gaming company repeatedly FAILS to get its releases out on time?

It doesn't affect me at all, in any way that I can think of. I've never even known when a release date was coming.

QuoteSo, general public: what's better, for a company to set a release date that's a long way away and actually MAKE their date, or to set a release date and then have to push it back three or four times till they release seven or eight months after they were supposed to?

If I had to choose, I guess safe is better than sorry.

QuoteHow many times can a gamebook be delayed where you will tolerate it?

No idea, I've never had to wait, so I have no idea.

QuoteHow much does it affect your opinion of the company?

I don't read about the companies. I couldn't pick Gary Gygax out from Kevin whatever his name is. Generally the more I learn about the people who write the books I enjoy, the less I like them. So fuck it, I just don't read about them, since they don't affect my game play anyways.

QuoteWhat will you do about it?

As always, speak with my wallet, and participation.

There have been a couple times when I was so excited about a game coming out that I scheduled sessions based on release date. But really--I've been around the block enough times that I have to own that. I haven't really had any reason to be surprised by a game missing its date since Castle Falkenstein.