I quite like the implementation of Dragons in Cakebread and Walton's Pirates & Dragons. Dragons used to rule an empire and be worshiped as gods, then the fought a war (with the ancient Adalantans) and lost. Now they are exiled to the Dragon Isles (the not-Carribean of the game's setting).

Youngling dragons squabble, fight, and jockey for position on the less desirable islands. They are possesed of only rudimentary intelligence, have no magic and cannot fully mature until they displace one of the Great Dragons from its home.

The Great Dragons are intelligent, many have magic, rule tribes of islanders who worship and serve them and often have undead servants as well. Each has its own unique personality and foibles. Some are able to change shape into human form as well.  The dragons gain their power by subduing the spirits of the islands they inhabit and bending them to their will. Great dragons will occasionally mate and lay eggs, but otherwise do not seem to have sexes or genders relating to anything beyond the personality of the dragon.

All in all it makes the dragons unique creatures, while following much of the common lore about big, flying, fire-breathing, gold-hoarding, magical lizards.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;954791Dragons have always been seen as big, nasty and nearly impossible to defeat.

Really? Dragon size and ability has always been all over the map literally and figuratively.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;954791Go read, it might do you some good.

Physician, heal thyself.

Quote from: Trond;954829Because he's a dragon. The dragons in old Germanic tales often did the same (Beowulf for instance)

Smaug basically is the Beowulf dragon, because The Hobbit is an inverted retelling of Beowulf itself.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;954851So no reason, no magical, mythical, spiritual, psychological or ecological justification appeared at any point in Tolkien's work? Not even a single sentence? I can understand that in old Germanic tales of course, but I'm a bit surprised regarding the Hobbit.

The dragons are, like they are in Beowulf, the physical embodiment of Greed and Selfishness, anathema to both the Pagan Anglo-Saxon mind, with its emphasis on gift-giving and hospitality, as well as early Christianity.

Specifically, they were later expanded and defined to be monstrous reptiles bred by Morgoth in the First Age and corrupted and invested with his evil spirit, transformed much like the great werewolves were.  Without being under Morgoth's control to be used in battle, and left to their own devices, they would concern themselves most with staying alive, as well as amassing huge amounts of wealth as a way to satisfy their greed and prove their power.  After taking the Lonely Mountain, the only thing that might have been better would be Moria itself, but doing battle with the Balrog probably wasn't high on Smaug's to-do list considering what he had attained at Erebor.

CF also Fafnir vis Smaug.  Tolkien was cribbing so much from folklore and legend for the Hobbit he probably felt it wasn't needed to "justify" Smaug.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;954865You are so fucking stupid.

Quote from: CRKrueger;954904Really? Dragon size and ability has always been all over the map literally and figuratively.

It's nice that you can do internet searches, so there's a step up in my expectations of you, but you're still wrong.

Simply because according to legend, it took FOUR OX CARTS to carry the bits of slain dragon after St. George killed it, who by the way, was NOT a normal man, he was a SAINT, which meant he would be far above the average man, out of the town.

Game try, but you're still wrong, especially since the ancient artists renditions get the size of the dragon wrong.  Ox carts might not be huge, but they're two wheeled square conveyances, designed to carry a lot of mass.

And finally, the dragon lived in a lake and CAUSES A PLAGUE!  That's some substantial power.

Would you two like to try that again?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;954982It's nice that you can do internet searches, so there's a step up in my expectations of you, but you're still wrong.

Simply because according to legend, it took FOUR OX CARTS to carry the bits of slain dragon after St. George killed it, who by the way, was NOT a normal man, he was a SAINT, which meant he would be far above the average man, out of the town.

Game try, but you're still wrong, especially since the ancient artists renditions get the size of the dragon wrong.  Ox carts might not be huge, but they're two wheeled square conveyances, designed to carry a lot of mass.

And finally, the dragon lived in a lake and CAUSES A PLAGUE!  That's some substantial power.

Would you two like to try that again?

Not sure anyone (except you apparently) would call the Tropical Rat Flea powerful, but they've killed hundreds of millions of people through plague.  You know, that's kind of the selling point of killing people with disease and poison...it takes no actual strength or power at all.

Do some research yourself.  Slavic dragons are not Chinese Dragons, African Dragons are not Norse Dragons.  Many dragon legends are tied directly to dinosaur fossils, large snakes and crocodiles, not "and when the dragon fell to earth, his bones made the mountains."  What is a dragon?  Does it have wings, can it fly, does it have legs, can it breathe fire or something else, does it have a tail, can it talk, is it physical or a spirit?  Ask people from 20 different cultures, you'll get 40 different answers.

For me, there's another reason D&D dragons should be kill targets at mid-level...'cuz its called Dungeons & Dragons. There's a built in expectation FOR ME that my D&D experience should involve a copious amount of those two aspects. Kinda like my expectations for Runequest and Shadowrun.

Thus, I am always good for the existence of different tiers of dragons.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;954718What have been your favorite implementations of dragons as setting element, not just a game element? Non-game examples are welcome.

First off how Dragon depicted vary wildly in real world mythology. There are a bewildering variety of large reptilian beasts in myth and legend that could be classified as Dragons. So there is no "right" answer for a given campaign. Only the answer the referee thinks is right for his setting.

D&D take on dragon is works well for a lot of referee and I have no complaints about it other than the fact that for AD&D Dragons seemed less than epic unless they are of the highest age category. Over time for the Majestic Wilderlands I altered dragons in various ways to make them more mysterious, more epic. PCs can take them on especially with good planning but overall I feel my take is much more mythic than D&D's take.

I will give a gold star to D&D 5th edition their Dragons. The addition of lair actions I think really make the most powerful dragon something to be truly feared and a epic challenge for any PC group.

This is my take on Dragons

QuoteThe god Set created the dragons as elite shock forces against the Demons during the Uttermost War. After the war the Demons were imprisoned in the Abyss. A ward was placed around the entrance to bar them from returning to the Wilderlands. The ward was comprised of crystals placed in several towers around the entranceway. The Dragons were charged to act as guardians and to protect them against any outsiders.

After a thousand years some Dragons began to be bored of this duty and yearned for the freedom of the Wilderlands. When the Black Lord arrived seeking aid in the Crystal Wars these dragons eagerly agreed to join him. For betraying their duty these dragon became known as the Black Dragons. After arriving in the Wilderlands some of the Black Dragons chafed at aiding the Black Lord. They instead left to make their own way. These Dragons became known as the Copper Dragons.

The remaining dragons resolved that the Black Dragons betrayal shall not go unpunished. They sent out a small contingent of loyal Dragons to aid the Black Lord's foes and to bring the Black Dragons to justice. They adopted silver as their color. When the Crystal Wars ended with the destruction of the Black Lord, the Black Dragons scattered. Some of the loyal Dragons were changed by the war. They became obsessed, believing that any means was acceptable in hunting down the Black Dragons. These Dragons changed their color to Blue.

The dragons that remained behind to guard the towers adopted Gold as their color and still await the return of their brethren.

Dragons are reptilian with four limbs, tails, and wings folded into their front limbs. Their hide is made of scales and is one of the toughest substances known in the Wilderlands.

Dragons have the ability to breathe fire, and change the color of their hides. They do not speak as normal people do but instead use telepathy to speak mind to mind.

A Dragon sense of time/sense is very different. They know their ends as well as their beginnings. They perceive time as one moment. This ability doesn't extend to the mortal races, including Elves, only to themselves. It is for this reason that Dragons will actively involve mortals in their plans. It is only through mortal action that a Dragon's fate can be altered.

A Dragon is extremely confident of himself and his position in the world. They believe that they are the highest form of creation and view other races as children or with contempt. A few dragons, notably the Silver Dragons, have come to understand the ability of mortal races to alter their fate and actively involve themselves with mortals.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;954791Yeah, really.  You're woefully ignorant about the history of Dragons as a mythological beast if you think that stupid Elmore picture is actually representative of what Dragons were.  Hell, if anything, D&D pussified them, by allowing small teams of puny humans to be able to hurt one of them.  ........

Quote from: Black Vulmea;954865You are so fucking stupid.

"Arrgh! How stupid are you guys? Don't you know that dragons are medium size? This proves that you both are inbred and stink like piss and poop!"

Quote from: Spinachcat;954995For me, there's another reason D&D dragons should be kill targets at mid-level...'cuz its called Dungeons & Dragons. There's a built in expectation FOR ME that my D&D experience should involve a copious amount of those two aspects. Kinda like my expectations for Runequest and Shadowrun.

Huh, well hmm yeah I do expect someone will trip on a dead body at some point when playing The Fantasy Trip.

Quote from: Spinachcat;954995For me, there's another reason D&D dragons should be kill targets at mid-level...'cuz its called Dungeons & Dragons. There's a built in expectation FOR ME that my D&D experience should involve a copious amount of those two aspects. Kinda like my expectations for Runequest and Shadowrun.

Thus, I am always good for the existence of different tiers of dragons.

   Related question: how has the apparent prevalence of demons as the 'go-to adversary' for numerous stretches of the game's history, as opposed to dragons, affected the game?

In 1e, many dragons were Large creatures, and even encountered in pairs. Thus, they could be found in dungeons. It wasn't impossible to imagine a 20 foot long dragon maneuvering through 10ft wide corridors.  In 2e and beyond, most dragons were Huge creatures and beyond, and thus not really dungeon monsters anymore.

Meanwhile, demons are Medium or Large, and perfect for dungeons.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;954982It's nice that you can do internet searches, so there's a step up in my expectations of you, but you're still wrong.

Simply because according to legend, it took FOUR OX CARTS to carry the bits of slain dragon after St. George killed it, who by the way, was NOT a normal man, he was a SAINT, which meant he would be far above the average man, out of the town.

Game try, but you're still wrong, especially since the ancient artists renditions get the size of the dragon wrong.  Ox carts might not be huge, but they're two wheeled square conveyances, designed to carry a lot of mass.

And finally, the dragon lived in a lake and CAUSES A PLAGUE!  That's some substantial power.

Would you two like to try that again?

That moment when you realize someone online obviously faps to pictures of dragons....

According to Terry Pratchett, who sold 70 million books -- and I suspect those books were read -- the common "swamp" dragon is about 2 feet long and is prone to indigestion.

Variety in size and power is nice, especially in a game.