Had another session with two more players.  Things went fine.  It's like a game system that works well for new people who don't know the rules would also work fine for people who can't know the rules.  

In the end the two new players also opted to roll their own attacks and their own saves vs lethal effects.  We had one character death from a fall add another very close call during the battle for the Harvester's alter.  They did manage to destroy the thing and end the source of the scarecrows.

So I figured I'd report back after running this game two or three times a month for a year.

Things are going very well in terms of players talking about the game with other people they know and me getting emails and requests to join in.  I now have 7 players and find things run fast enough that everyone's input is manageable.  People seem to really like how accessible the game is.  Everything is in natural language and the only thing they need to know is to roll a d20, higher is always better.

So much gets done in terms of fictional content.  So little time is spent on system concerns that a lot of quests get resolved, areas get explored and so on.  The players character sheets are full of notes about things that interest them instead of stats.

While I started out with an 0D&D type structure, I eventually dropped a lot of it.  instead of having multiple ability scores, I only have things of note about the character.  So instead of STR, INT, etc., I just have things like Strong +1 or Weak minded -1.  A character sheet might look like this:

HP 5 SP3 (spell points)
Strong +1
Training in all weapons and armor

Medium weight armor (14)
Large shield -2/-3 (cover penalty for attackers in melee/at range)

Magic users are all custom made based on what the player describes as wanting their character to do.  I use spell points where after they are gone, spells drain HP at a 2:1 rate.  Characters have killed themselves casting powerful spells when drained.  Their level of magical depletion is communicated to them when they are at half or are empty or almost empty and certainly if they harm themselves through spell casting.  In 30ish sessions no one has felt their spell usage hurting them in any way blind sided them in an unfair manner.  They got very quickly that powerful spells are dangerous things to cast.

One thing it has done is really focused me on what details my description needs to have.  And how to describe things so people can picture them in 3d in their heads more easily.  My description needs work even still.  We're getting by, but I think I'm just short of the amount of description needed for people to have a common idea in their heads while at the same time leaving room for their imagination to fill in the details of the picture.  This isn't really specific to having the system hidden from the players except that since everything is moving faster as the players aren't fumbling around with game mechanics, so more locations and situations are described per hour, so there's more chances to both get things right and screw up.

I've never met a player who didn't like to or want to roll his or her own dice, so this seems weird to me. Even more foreign now that I'm having players make all the dice rolls (I haven't rolled a dice in-game in months).

You just running the one game?  

You mentioned you thought the "behind the screen" parts were what was speeding up play.  

I wonder if your games would slow right down again if you gave the players back their charcter sheets.

Also, you have custom multiple custom built magic users playing?  That was a deal breaker for my Amber campagin, I told new players they could do anything and they were all parilized so the game never started.  

Sounds like you found a system for a new inexperienced player to describe a magic user useing natural language.    That sounds useful.  Can it be taught?

I applaud you. This is an exercise for the GM's creativity and communication, as it is a liberation for the players to "look up from their sheet."

I'm gonna offer you a descriptive acronym in the form of a hip hop rapper's name, just so you can feed relevance to players and they don't feel like they're trying to "guess what you're imagining." You don't need to use all, but when stuck it helps remind the GM "have I given everything the PCs would immediately recognize?"

L. L. WAND

Location. Lighting. Weather. Access. Noticeables. Distance.

Location sounds basic, but every scene needs a surface to stand on. Describe it quickly if possible, but make sure players understand it means something when you do. Things like terrain, elevation, dominant flora (a form of terrain!), etc.

Lighting, again sounds basic, but you are all senses to your players' PCs. It can be broadly extended to visibility, so dominant flora can obscure things just as much as day/night cycles. Be fast and pertinent, but do emphasize their relevance.

Weather, because we often slip into it being all sunshine and cool breezes without thinking about it. Whole strategies, from travel to attack, changes from this encountered detail. People dressed accordingly for reasons; it's not a bad thing to reintroduce.

Access, because this defines challenges. Without this and distance players want to jump into the action altogether everytime, as if some teleporting gestalt. Chasms on the way, things partially buried, or frozen over, a dresser with closed drawers, even plain MacGuffins out of immediate reach on a high shelf, all define scene with their challenges and opportunities.

Noticeables, this is the "opportunities" in a scene. We often forget as GMs to sprinkle the world with lively bits, and then we lapse into "and combat devolved into stale back 'n forths swinging." You stock the scene with chandeliers and their rope tie, with sparkly earrings on a dresser, with a loose boulder on a ledge, with a six-fingered gloved hand... These are the freebies readily seen by most PCs.

Distance, sets the opportunity for either the party or the encounter (which can include sheer phenomena). This is the risk cost for the party's throttle setting; caution rewards in one way, thrill-seeker 'rewards' in another. Managing distance through demeanor has huge ramifications for strategic play, and further really shuts down 'teleporting gestalt' style play. Distance rewards splitting up to multitask, but also brings risk when there is danger. It makes the game about being in a time and a space matter over PC sheet widgets.

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It seems like a silly thing to offer, but I found the acronym helped me (and other GMs sorta stuck with a frozen party) go back through descriptions and see if I gave all I could to the PCs' senses. It also keeps you on task from getting lost in embellishing lush environs with ever more purple prose, a nasty habit that can sneak up on you. It is a game, so players need more than "tumescent scabbards whose quivering susserous enthralls the martial soul..." Keep things on task and leave the frustrated novelization to NaNoWriMo.

I think that, if you want them  to look up from their sheet, play a game where there is not much on the sheet. Or just don't call for as many rolls?

Quote from: cranebump;918884I think that, if you want them  to look up from their sheet, play a game where there is not much on the sheet. Or just don't call for as many rolls?

Well, it still is a game, and part of that involves tasks that matter, be it from pressures or just quality check (degree of success). So even if the game system is light, and most inconsequential tasks are handwaved, you'll still get to this moment where a decision must matter. So describe the scene thoroughly for audience's mind's eye, yet make the description short & sweet, then a better informed decision can be made. If it hits the sweet spot the audience feels emboldened to interact creatively off-sheet with the world, and the GM feels in sync with economical yet descriptive flow.

And that's a performance modulation, where you get to know your audience. We all think our descriptions are perfect, but we forget that others cannot read our imagination. Thus in practice sometimes players stall out onto the sheet from lack of where else to turn. This way you stretch that performance muscle to have players reconnect to GM trust as provider of all PC senses, and learn to improve providing that 'sensory' feedback.

Quote from: Headless;918824You just running the one game?  

Yeah.  My primary hobby is miniature wargaming, so I just have the two or three RPG sessions a month.  They tend to go from 6 pm to 1 am though.

QuoteYou mentioned you thought the "behind the screen" parts were what was speeding up play.  

I wonder if your games would slow right down again if you gave the players back their charcter sheets.

I think I'd have disappointed players who would be looking for more fiddly bits to play with using the game mechanics rather than concentrating on describing what they do.  I think the system behind the screen has allowed the players to learn how to make decisions based on the description I give, but the actual system time being reduced is probably more to do with just how light the game rules are.  The point of the referee in this instance is to produce results and describe them, so a system that does any more than that is superfluous.  I don't need a system that is enjoyable for the players to use during the game.  The system is for me, not them, in this case.

QuoteAlso, you have custom multiple custom built magic users playing?  That was a deal breaker for my Amber campagin, I told new players they could do anything and they were all parilized so the game never started.  

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I mean that each character's magical ability is built based on how they describe things when their character is created.  For example, a character that is a lunar priestess and thus has different spells based on the phase of the moon at the time.  So they started with 4 spells (new moon, waxing, full, waning) which were things like darkness, bless, beastform, & deflect and all the time they have access to a spell to close wounds.

QuoteSounds like you found a system for a new inexperienced player to describe a magic user useing natural language.    That sounds useful.  Can it be taught?

Sadly it's not a free form type magic system.  It's just a conversation at character creation.

"I want my wizard to shoot fire from his eyes and fly!"
"What powers his magic?  How did he get his power?"
"He made a pact with a dark being when he was initiated into his order."
"Flying is a bit much for a relatively new wizard, so what do you think about being able to levitate and move slowly about for now and maybe he'll develop more speed or control as time goes by?  The fire thing though, no problem."
"Cool!"

Then I scribble down something like Levitation (self only) 1 SP per 10 minutes.  Walking speed, can move horizontally and vertically.  and Fiery eye beams - 100 ft range - 1d6 plus chance to catch things on fire, 1 SP per shot.

Quote from: cranebump;918779I've never met a player who didn't like to or want to roll his or her own dice, so this seems weird to me. Even more foreign now that I'm having players make all the dice rolls (I haven't rolled a dice in-game in months).

They all roll their d20s.  I roll their d6s + modifiers for damage (a two handed sword is d6+4 while a knife is d6-1, that sort of thing) and all the other rolls I might need on a dice rolling app.

Quote from: Opaopajr;918843I applaud you. This is an exercise for the GM's creativity and communication, as it is a liberation for the players to "look up from their sheet."

My mantra when it comes to RPGs has always been to make sure that players can make meaningful decisions.  I've found that when decisions are not based on system concerns, they can be a lot more meaningful and powerful.

QuoteI'm gonna offer you a descriptive acronym in the form of a hip hop rapper's name, just so you can feed relevance to players and they don't feel like they're trying to "guess what you're imagining." You don't need to use all, but when stuck it helps remind the GM "have I given everything the PCs would immediately recognize?"

L. L. WAND

Location. Lighting. Weather. Access. Noticeables. Distance.

I wrote it in sharpie on the top page of my notes for next session.

QuoteLighting, again sounds basic, but you are all senses to your players' PCs. It can be broadly extended to visibility, so dominant flora can obscure things just as much as day/night cycles. Be fast and pertinent, but do emphasize their relevance.

Lighting restrictions are my favorite thing for D&D type games.  It's so nice to have a set radius for light, only describe what they see and vague descriptions of anything they might only partially make out.  I have had a bit of wilderness adventuring going on, so I do need to pay more attention to mentioning under brush and the nature of the terrain with regards to line of sight.

Quote from: cranebump;918884I think that, if you want them  to look up from their sheet, play a game where there is not much on the sheet. Or just don't call for as many rolls?

I'd recommend anyone run and play in at least one session where your sheet has no game stats on it at all and all you know about the system is to roll a d20 and that high is better than low.  It's different than just having a lighter system.  It isn't so much about correcting problems in play, but maximizing opportunity to act based on description.

QuoteThus in practice sometimes players stall out onto the sheet from lack of where else to turn. This way you stretch that performance muscle to have players reconnect to GM trust as provider of all PC senses, and learn to improve providing that 'sensory' feedback.

We also have had a decade or two of versions of D&D where players were given complete access to the system.   This was obviously for commercial reasons as players could then buy more options books for their characters (or even online subscriptions that aggregated them).  Add in miniatures where the position of everything is spelled out on battle maps and there might be a good number of players and referees out there that haven't exercised those muscles in quite some time.

Quote from: Opaopajr;918843I'm gonna offer you a descriptive acronym in the form of a hip hop rapper's name, just so you can feed relevance to players and they don't feel like they're trying to "guess what you're imagining." You don't need to use all, but when stuck it helps remind the GM "have I given everything the PCs would immediately recognize?"

L. L. WAND

That is helpful as a reminder. I think I will print this out before the next play session.

It's silly, but it's useful.

Like presenting anything, it's easy to have things well-organized in your mind, but did you remember to communicate that as thoroughly as you thought? Sort of like a refresher checklist. Hope it helps!

Quote from: Opaopajr;919423It's silly, but it's useful.

Like presenting anything, it's easy to have things well-organized in your mind, but did you remember to communicate that as thoroughly as you thought? Sort of like a refresher checklist. Hope it helps!

I printed it and set it on top of my notes. I'll try to remember to use it tomorrow night and post anything interesting after. Feel free to remind me next week if it seems I forgot.

Just an update.  This game is still going.  8 players and another 10 or so who have heard about the game that are on a waiting list.  It really is true that when the players don't have to master a complex system in order to play, more people are interested.

Still doing d20 rolls by the players.  High is good.  Sometimes I roll myself and it's basically me interpreting the opposed rolls with general modifiers.  No saving throws unless the player describes what they are doing to save themselves.  Character death every 3 or 4 sessions on average.  Character creation takes 2 minutes. They just describe their character and I write down a few important things like how they stand out and apply that to a normal dungeoneer profile I have.  No one ever really stops being a normal person just because they are experienced.

So much happens.  As there's no system based decisions we can easily get through three times the amount of material that I'm used to playing something like Dungeon Crawl Classics, Call of Cthulhu or whatever.  I'm basically running a system behind the screen version of Swords & Wizardry with opposed rolls more than target numbers, so I imagine a similarly light game might be nearly as fast even played in the normal fashion.

Still reminding myself about LL WAND every session and after every break.