TheRPGSite

Look I am old school as they come, but it is about time Mr. Mentzer was put out to pasture. He has a really poor temperament and is sort of not a nice guyany more, particularly when it comes to interacting with women. Luke Gygax just made the announcement - https://garycon.com/blog/2019/02/18/harbinger-unheeded/?fbclid=IwAR0n55y-UB_0qaz1GY5jIGT766K5nKpXEZqx2fsmjrHsUYSSHujLorv6-bg

What did he do this time to get him banned from the con?

Beyond the weird stuff with Jessica Price [who is a former colleague of mine] he's been the epitome of what happens when men grow old and useless. His blackmail bullshit on the Dragonsfoot forum and the fall-out from his Kickstarter along was enough to give alot of people pause. His entire team abandoned him for Empyrea but I am sure that was just the straw that broke the camels back. His Facebook reads like a giant dumpster fire and has scrubbed many of his old posts where former colleagues and friends have told him to relax https://www.facebook.com/frank.mentzer

He is also firmly anti OSR but that is mostly a personal quibble that pales in comparison to his actions above.

Quote from: Grognard101;1075612Look I am old school as they come, but it is about time Mr. Mentzer was put out to pasture. He has a really poor temperament and is sort of not a nice guyany more, particularly when it comes to interacting with women. Luke Gygax just made the announcement - https://garycon.com/blog/2019/02/18/harbinger-unheeded/?fbclid=IwAR0n55y-UB_0qaz1GY5jIGT766K5nKpXEZqx2fsmjrHsUYSSHujLorv6-bg

Many people believe his red box rule set is one of the best versions in the history of D&D.  He may very well be a total ass, but his name will live on for a long time.  I'm very curious about the crew of old grognards he hangs with.  I bet they can tell some stories....

Red box still one of my favorite versions of D&D but damn if the man isnt a not-so-good human being.

Quote from: Grognard101;1075618Red box still one of my favorite versions of D&D but damn if the man isnt a not-so-good human being.

Greetings!

I've read Frank's exchanges with Price. Price is an SJW nutjob. Having said that, Mentzer seems to also be socially retarded. Why is a man in his 60's for God's sake even involving himself in stupid conversations on Facebook and Twitter with women half his age? Why is he acting like a jackass to other people? I just do not understand why this guy, an old school game developer, senior gaming statesman, assumed to be married--why does he fail to enjoy a pleasant, gracious time in dignified semi-retirement? It's like Mentzer feels some obsessive need to vault himself into the public square, eager to court drama and controversy at every turn.

I just don't understand some of these people who, heretofore, have built up a great reputation and legacy, and yet, seem all too eager to piss all over it and have so much of what they have spent decades developing, erode and vanish virtually overnight. I can only imagine what his wife and family must be saying to him. Wow, you know?

It's still sad to see him declared persona non grata at such an event as prestigious as GaryCon. How embarassing, you know?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I've said elsewhere why I have problems with Mentzer.  Well, now he'll reap what he's sown.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1075620I've said elsewhere why I have problems with Mentzer.  Well, now he'll reap what he's sown.

Greetings!

Hey Dungeon! What kind of problems? I'm curious what problems you have with Mentzer. I haven't followed Mentzer scandals or drama closely, so I'm in the dark about him.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Grognard101;1075612Look I am old school as they come, but it is about time Mr. Mentzer was put out to pasture. He has a really poor temperament and is sort of not a nice guyany more, particularly when it comes to interacting with women. Luke Gygax just made the announcement - https://garycon.com/blog/2019/02/18/harbinger-unheeded/?fbclid=IwAR0n55y-UB_0qaz1GY5jIGT766K5nKpXEZqx2fsmjrHsUYSSHujLorv6-bg

D&D Democrats will still worship him though. Short-term memories.

I don't think Mentzer is married; could be wrong. I would have thought Price would have mentioned it if he was.

I... I think Mentzer has been a massive jerk, but still he should not have been un-personed. I felt strongly enough to post my views to Garycon's Facebook, so I expect to be torn to shreds by the SJWs active there. :\

Frank's pissed off a ton of people, a lot more than just Price.  However, Luke used language like "toxic" and "safe space" to feed the SJWs even if that wasn't the main reason.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1075635Frank's pissed off a ton of people, a lot more than just Price.  

His behaviour on Dragonsfoot was far worse, certainly. He deserved the ban he got there.

Quote from: Grognard101;1075612Look I am old school as they come, but it is about time Mr. Mentzer was put out to pasture. He has a really poor temperament and is sort of not a nice guyany more, particularly when it comes to interacting with women. Luke Gygax just made the announcement - https://garycon.com/blog/2019/02/18/harbinger-unheeded/?fbclid=IwAR0n55y-UB_0qaz1GY5jIGT766K5nKpXEZqx2fsmjrHsUYSSHujLorv6-bg

From the statement:

we must ensure that everyone feels welcome, safe, and believes that they are a valued member of our community regardless of their gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, or what edition that they play

This makes it sounds as if Mentzer was harrassing people on the basis of their gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, or what edition that they play - which is false, libellous, and really bad IMO. He has been a big jerk/bully to people completely irrespective of any of those factors!

Why does almost every niche of this industry bow down and give in to the special snowflakes?  They must buy a lot of RPG products?  If not, then it doesn't make ANY sense at all.

Just as the Zak Smith/Daniel Fox saga, all of this seems like literal soap opera-level to me. Why should anyone care what any of these people do in their private lives unless you happen to know them closely?

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1075647Just as the Zak Smith/Daniel Fox saga, all of this seems like literal soap opera-level to me. Why should anyone care what any of these people do in their private lives unless you happen to know them closely?

Garycon is not 'private lives'??

Sure, so the news is that Mentzer got banned from Garycon over his personal conduct with others. That's the gist of it, duly taken note of.
But then we dive into detail:

QuoteJessica Price

Quoteblackmail bullshit on the Dragonsfoot forum

QuoteHis Facebook reads like a giant dumpster fire and has scrubbed many of his old posts where former colleagues and friends have told him to relax https://www.facebook.com/frank.mentzer

QuoteHe may very well be a total ass

QuoteI've read Frank's exchanges with Price. Price is an SJW nutjob. Having said that, Mentzer seems to also be socially retarded. Why is a man in his 60's for God's sake even involving himself in stupid conversations on Facebook and Twitter with women half his age?

And that's where it becomes soap opera to me. "He said she did this, she said that he's that."
It's the 2010s and somehow it seems like I am assumed to have to care what any other person out there in the same hobby as mine does in their private lives and if I don't, then I guess I am an enabler or some such nonsense. No, I'm not. I'm not an enabler if I don't give a damn if Zak Smith abused his girl-friends (since I am completely removed from the situation). Get this: I wouldn't even be one if I was to begin buying his products (which I have no intention of doing). I'm interested in games and in talking about games and whether you're killing puppies in your neighborhood is no concern of mine. Other than the usual reporting evidence of crime to authorities if I was to become aware of any, of course.

So, bottom line: sure, it's good to know if someone has a certain reputation so that you can keep an eye on it if you ever were to meet them. Sure, Garycon uninviting the dude is news-worthy. But is the rest really relevant?

They uninvited him?
:rolleyes:oh no... that's terrible...

Mentzer may be a senile old asshat but at one point he made one of the most groundbreaking versions of D&D ever, a game that had a profound impact on the hobby.

This isn't like Zak S. and his mediocre OSR products or like Black Hat Matt and his predatory communist propaganda game Beast: The Primordial (the game so woke it even made RPG.net uncomfortable)

Mentzer made the Red Box set and the worst crimes you can accuse him of (to anyone's knowledge) are that he's an asshole on the internet and he awkwardly hit on Jessica Price like an idiot.

Black Hat Matt is a literal communist who not only advocates threats of violence against anyone he disagrees with, he also is a rapist and several of his victims were minors at the time.

Frank Mentzer is deemed persona non grata and people are going all Damnatio Memoriae on him (and WOTC will probably remove BECMI from DTRPG at this rate) while the only thing that happened to Black Hat Matt is that he was banned from RPG.net (which isn't exactly hard to accomplish) and that was it.

DTRPG is still selling Beast: The Primordial and while Onyx Path officially fired him, a lot of the Onyx Path woke-meisters are still on speaking terms with him and Beast is still being promoted on their forums.

If these SJW hipsters and other punk rock commie scum weren't such hypocrites, they'd Damnatio Memoriae Black Hat Matt and send Beast: The Primordial down the memory hole where it belongs.

Frank Mentzer's version of Basic D&D is a legendary game that introduced a whole generation into the hobby back in the 1980's.

Black Hat Matt's Beast: The Primordial is largely hated by non-SJW's (even some SJW's find it awful) and is often included on the same "Worst RPG's Ever" lists as FATAL, MYFAROG, Wraethu, and D&D 4E.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075652Black Hat Matt's Beast: The Primordial is largely hated by non-SJW's (even some SJW's find it awful) and is often included on the same "Worst RPG's Ever" lists as FATAL, MYFAROG, Wraethu, and D&D 4E.

*ouch* Sammy that was a mean hit on 4e! :D

Anyway I agree with your sentiment. Mentzer's attempt at bullying EOTB over on Dragonsfoot was pretty appalling; his awkward hitting on Price was just silly, though his views on sexual harrassment were unwise to say the least. I don't think I like him much. But he has done nothing to deserve this treatment from Luke Gygax & Garycon. The guy is an industry legend who is probably a bit senile, as you say. He is not some kind of sexual predator.

Quote from: S'mon;1075631I... I think Mentzer has been a massive jerk, but still he should not have been un-personed. I felt strongly enough to post my views to Garycon's Facebook, so I expect to be torn to shreds by the SJWs active there. :\

Hrrrm? Something else happened, something that you are not hearing about. I have known Luke for awhile now, and he would stand by Frank, especially in consideration of Frank's relationship with Luke's father. I'm certain it pained him greatly to have to make this decision, especially just a couple of weeks before the show this year. I would put good money on any wager that says that Frank tried to to step on someone else, or was lured into doing something that would once again harm the show, and this was brought to Luke's attention.

I'm pretty much in the camp of I just want to sit around and play some games with my friends, and a few guests that show up to sit in at my table. Personally, I don't want a bunch of people name-calling, fighting, being disagreeable, dragging in their broken personal relationships, and just being anti-social working their way into my gaming environment and poisoning the fun that we have. I'm over all the people on the internet that are doing this as well and making our fun and games, ...well, ...not so fun.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1075658I would put good money on any wager that says that Frank tried to to step on someone else, or was lured into doing something that would once again harm the show, and this was brought to Luke's attention.

Well there didn't seem any indication of that in Luke's statement, so it seems a bit unfair to speculate.

Quote from: S'mon;1075659Well there didn't seem any indication of that in Luke's statement, so it seems a bit unfair to speculate.

Well, what you call my speculation is based on my personal knowledge of Luke, and the facts are these; Luke enjoys gaming very much, he is an active duty military officer, and a gentleman, as well as a good family man. I'm pretty sure about every year GaryCon has been a show that Luke has stopped by Frank's place for some gaming and good times. For many years Frank has had an open house where him and his wife host gamers for an evening of open D&D gaming. To see a rift open between these old friends is painful, and not without some specific cause, other than some vague allegations...  Also, the fact that they are not speaking about this openly indicates their mutual desire to not harm the show any further. What do you hope to achieve in pursuing this matter further?

Quote from: GameDaddy;1075660What do you hope to achieve in pursuing this matter further?

I would like to see fewer specious un-personings in the RPG game industry. I would like to see a clear bright line between (a) jerkish behaviour and (b) serious allegations of criminal activity. I would like to see the two treated very differently.

Quote from: S'mon;1075661I would like to see fewer specious un-personings in the RPG game industry. I would like to see a clear bright line between (a) jerkish behaviour and (b) serious allegations of criminal activity. I would like to see the two treated very differently.

Well, I'm just here for gaming, not to sort out jerks from criminals and the criminals from jerks, ...except perhaps to keep them both from spoiling the fun to be had at my gaming table.

Cool.  Garycon got woke.

Glad my plans to attend this year fell through.

Quote from: S'mon;1075661I would like to see fewer specious un-personings in the RPG game industry. I would like to see a clear bright line between (a) jerkish behaviour and (b) serious allegations of criminal activity. I would like to see the two treated very differently.

If anything, criminal behaviour is easy to deal with, since it's usually pretty clear-cut. Harassment (jerkish behaviour) can easily be enough to deter people from coming / coming back, without it being criminal behaviour. Some guy gets drunk starts leering at the ladies - it's not a crime, but why should the convention defend that person over the people that are understandably not wanting to be in the same room as that guy?

Quote from: CRKrueger;1075635Frank's pissed off a ton of people, a lot more than just Price.  However, Luke used language like "toxic" and "safe space" to feed the SJWs even if that wasn't the main reason.

He caved to the SJW mob like too many companies do. Once you start using that kind of language one is just trying to be woke and virtue signal. If Luke would have been smarter he would have used Frank bad behavior at Dragonsfoot as the only reason.

Quote from: Motorskills;1075665Some guy gets drunk starts leering at the ladies - it's not a crime, but why should the convention defend that person over the people that are understandably not wanting to be in the same room as that guy?

Yeah, but Frank Mentzer didn't even do that.

The most uncomfortable experience I've had in 30 years of gaming was at Garycon and had nothing to do with Frank.
Having a stripper on the boardroom table, bdsm punishments for rolling 1s or 2s, and a plethora of other stuff.

Quote from: Mizzle;1075669The most uncomfortable experience I've had in 30 years of gaming was at Garycon and had nothing to do with Frank.
Having a stripper on the boardroom table, bdsm punishments for rolling 1s or 2s, and a plethora of other stuff.

Seriously? Well I guess they are really keeping the Spirit of Gygax alive, then! :eek:

Meh. Because I'm an adult, I realised it was not representational and moved on...

Quote from: S'mon;1075668Yeah, but Frank Mentzer didn't even do that.

Let's not let facts get in the way!

Quote from: S'mon;1075670Seriously? Well I guess they are really keeping the Spirit of Gygax alive, then! :eek:

Greetings!

LOL! Bring it on, Woot!:)

You know, S'mon, when I was in my unit, me and my crew of crazy Marines, well, we were in a foreign country, at a club. The local women were very welcoming to a group of handsome young US Marines. There was lots of loud music, and plenty of good cigars being smoked. Bottles of Tequila were poured left and right, and women leaped about us, dancing on the tables, right before our eyes. While some women danced on the table, other gorgeous women graciously sat in our laps, one, two, or three such gorgeous women for every Marine.

Ah. Just a little snapshot from heaven.:) Yes, my friend. Heaven really does exist!:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

But was that an official game at a convention, booked thru the booking system?

Quote from: S'mon;1075654*ouch* Sammy that was a mean hit on 4e! :D

Anyway I agree with your sentiment. Mentzer's attempt at bullying EOTB over on Dragonsfoot was pretty appalling; his awkward hitting on Price was just silly, though his views on sexual harrassment were unwise to say the least. I don't think I like him much. But he has done nothing to deserve this treatment from Luke Gygax & Garycon. The guy is an industry legend who is probably a bit senile, as you say. He is not some kind of sexual predator.

Quote from: SHARK;1075701Greetings!

LOL! Bring it on, Woot!:)

You know, S'mon, when I was in my unit, me and my crew of crazy Marines, well, we were in a foreign country, at a club. The local women were very welcoming to a group of handsome young US Marines. There was lots of loud music, and plenty of good cigars being smoked. Bottles of Tequila were poured left and right, and women leaped about us, dancing on the tables, right before our eyes. While some women danced on the table, other gorgeous women graciously sat in our laps, one, two, or three such gorgeous women for every Marine.

Ah. Just a little snapshot from heaven.:) Yes, my friend. Heaven really does exist!:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You mean you weren't offended and triggered?  Haha!!!

Quote from: S'mon;1075631I don't think Mentzer is married; could be wrong. I would have thought Price would have mentioned it if he was.

I... I think Mentzer has been a massive jerk, but still he should not have been un-personed. I felt strongly enough to post my views to Garycon's Facebook, so I expect to be torn to shreds by the SJWs active there. :\

Wheres Gronan to tell us all this SJW stuff is not really real and never ever effects cons or real life gaming? :rolleyes:

Quote from: kythri;1075664Cool.  Garycon got woke.

Glad my plans to attend this year fell through.

It is not very surprising when you think about it. There was that Contessa incident a few weeks ago.

Quote from: S'mon;1075661I would like to see fewer specious un-personings in the RPG game industry. I would like to see a clear bright line between (a) jerkish behaviour and (b) serious allegations of criminal activity. I would like to see the two treated very differently.

Quote from: MotorskillsSome guy gets drunk starts leering at the ladies - it's not a crime, but why should the convention defend that person over the people that are understandably not wanting to be in the same room as that guy?

Quote from: S'mon;1075668Yeah, but Frank Mentzer didn't even do that.

On the general issue - I think S'mon's comment about criminal activity is off base. Someone doesn't need to be a criminal in order to be disinvited from being a special guest at a convention. If someone acts like a huge jerk, it's totally reasonable for them to stop getting invited to social events like cons.

I agree that Mentzer didn't do drunk leering, but what he did do was blatantly threaten to destroy people's careers in gaming just for disagreeing with him (both Price and EOTB).

Quote from: Mizzle;1075669The most uncomfortable experience I've had in 30 years of gaming was at Garycon and had nothing to do with Frank.
Having a stripper on the boardroom table, bdsm punishments for rolling 1s or 2s, and a plethora of other stuff.

Ooooooo.. Somehow I missed that, do tell. What game was this for? For the record last year and the previous year I worked GM services in the evening Thursday through Saturday bringing snacks for the folks running games, and I was in every board room both on the ground floor, and upstairs several times during the evening, and don't remember seeing any of that, or anything like that.

Quote from: jhkim;1075723he did do was blatantly threaten to destroy people's careers in gaming just for disagreeing with him (both Price and EOTB).

To clarify, in the very small chance this idea would end up being picked up somehow, I don't have a career in gaming and would never want one; as I consider the ability to tell anyone in gaming to go fuck themselves to be more valuable than any dozens of gaming dollars.  I would never depend on a gaming revenue stream, to the point where I would feel it better to behave a certain way that preserves it.

I don't really have any other comment on this, except to say that even when I was Frank's target du jour, being in his direct presence was the opposite of threatening.  Frank is the type whose threat disappears when he's in your physical vicinity.  To keep him farther than arms reach is when the threat begins.

Quote from: EOTB;1075727To clarify, in the very small chance this idea would end up being picked up somehow, I don't have a career in gaming and would never want one; as I consider the ability to tell anyone in gaming to go fuck themselves to be more valuable than any dozens of gaming dollars.  I would never depend on a gaming revenue stream, to the point where I would feel it better to behave a certain way that preserves it.

I don't really have any other comment on this, except to say that even when I was Frank's target du jour, being in his direct presence was the opposite of threatening.  Frank is the type whose threat disappears when he's in your physical vicinity.  To keep him farther than arms reach is when the threat begins.

Thanks for the input, EOTB. Still, his message was over-the-top in threatening language. Do you want to comment about how do you feel about him being removed as Guest of Honor from GaryCon?

To my mind, if I had received a message like that from someone, I suspect I'd be uncomfortable being around them in person - and would appreciate GaryCon's move. But I don't know the people or the community in this case.

We've been given no real information, so there's no reasoned comments to make.  Other than perhaps the likely withholding of information without any true 3rd party visible would point to an internal matter.

In my situation, nearly every single person commenting had zero clue.  So I won't make the same mistake.

As a generality, I'd say that when a narcissist is receiving more supply than they normally do, they're typically charming, happy, cuddly people who leave you feeling wonderful, not in danger.  Frank at cons is probably the safest he is ever going to be.  Those who know him better will decide if that's safe enough.

But when everyone was commenting on my situation about how wonderful Frank was personally to them, primarily at conventions, I didn't doubt them at all.  In fact, bad convention behavior would have been a piece of Frank's personality puzzle that didn't fit, rather than one that confirmed my suspicions.

I have met a few artists who were like that too. Really nice at cons. But once they got out of sight they Jekyll/Hyde into some of the worst people. And a few who were the opposite. Really unpleasant at a con. Which cost them commissions. But pretty nice once out of the public.

Quote from: S'mon;1075640...

This makes it sounds as if Mentzer was harrassing people on the basis of their gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, or what edition that they play - which is false, libellous, and really bad IMO. ...

That is clearly a generic statement about how they want to run the con, not implicating FM specifically.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075652... while the only thing that happened to Black Hat Matt is that he was banned from RPG.net (which isn't exactly hard to accomplish) and that was it.

...

Not exactly - http://theonyxpath.com/about-matt-mcfarland/

Quote from: jhkim;1075723I agree that Mentzer didn't do drunk leering, but what he did do was blatantly threaten to destroy people's careers in gaming just for disagreeing with him (both Price and EOTB).

For the record I was never suggesting that Mentzer was guilty of that, just pushing back on the nonsense that people should only be barred from events when their misbehaviour reaches the level of actual criminality.

Mentzer may be D&D's own hornier version of Grandpa Simpson, but unless I've missed something there's nothing he did that comes even close to making him somehow dangerous. The posts I've seen of his PM to Price (the one where he says "if I was 30 years younger and single, etc") are just pathetic old-man flirting, and ridiculously embarrassing to him, and later posts where he shows levels of ridiculous entitlement (even for someone who could legitimately claim some entitlement as one of the Fathers of the Hobby) are likewise embarrassing to be sure.

But I would think that the Zak S scandal would actually serve to show up just how utterly SHALLOW the claims of victimhood of people like Price really are. Grandpa Simpson flirted at her in a PM, OMIGOD that's just as bad as 10 years of systematic abuse that Mandy suffered at Zak's hands!! We have to Unperson Mentzer!!

This is insane.

Now, from what I understand (and correct me if I'm wrong), Garycon isn't really like some other situations (WoTC, for example, being a corporation owned by a massive megacorporation). It's owned and run by the Gygax family, right?

So maybe something could be done about this in terms of people who have personal connections to Luke Gygax having a talk with him and pointing out how much of an exaggeration this decision is, and how he let himself be hornswaggled by the SJWs, many of whom are people who DESPISE his father, despise his father's game, and want nothing less than for Garycon not to exist, at the expense of the actual clients of Garycon, many of whom feel alienated by this choice which seems to be made purely to collaborate with a gang of Stalinists.

Unfortunately now something as simple as that IS enough to get someone banned or worse.

Quote from: Grognard101;1075612Luke Gygax just made the announcement -

Mentzer is an idiot. But the day will come when someone accuses Luke Gygax. This is the nature of such a movement: everyone is guilty in the end.

I guess he could start MentzerCon?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1075783Mentzer is an idiot. But the day will come when someone accuses Luke Gygax. This is the nature of such a movement: everyone is guilty in the end.

"They got to you, too."
"They got to me a long time ago, Winston."

Quote from: RPGPundit;1075773Mentzer may be D&D's own hornier version of Grandpa Simpson, but unless I've missed something there's nothing he did that comes even close to making him somehow dangerous. The posts I've seen of his PM to Price (the one where he says "if I was 30 years younger and single, etc") are just pathetic old-man flirting, and ridiculously embarrassing to him, and later posts where he shows levels of ridiculous entitlement (even for someone who could legitimately claim some entitlement as one of the Fathers of the Hobby) are likewise embarrassing to be sure.

What's the "crime" though is him threatening to ruin people/ban them from the industry.  While obviously it was complete bluster, since Mentzer hasn't been relevant to gaming in 30 years and doubtful he was ever in a position of much power, you really shouldn't go around and threaten people like that.

Quote from: JeremyR;1075795What's the "crime" though is him threatening to ruin people/ban them from the industry.  While obviously it was complete bluster, since Mentzer hasn't been relevant to gaming in 30 years and doubtful he was ever in a position of much power, you really shouldn't go around and threaten people like that.

Appropriate sanctions for his 'crimes' of being a massive jerk in PMs:

1. Steve ban him from Dragonsfoot. As happened.
2. Price block him from PMing her. No idea.

Quote from: S'mon;1075796Appropriate sanctions for his 'crimes' of being a massive jerk in PMs:

1. Steve ban him from Dragonsfoot. As happened.
2. Price block him from PMing her. No idea.

Greetings!

Precisely, S'mon.:) In regards to Mentzer, why must there be *further* sanctions or "punishment"--beyond this? He acted jerkishly at Dragonsfoot, and with Price. Great. So, they ban or block him. Mentzer must be censured throughout the land, at other websites, publishers, and game conventions...why?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1075798Greetings!

Precisely, S'mon.:) In regards to Mentzer, why must there be *further* sanctions or "punishment"--beyond this? He acted jerkishly at Dragonsfoot, and with Price. Great. So, they ban or block him. Mentzer must be censured throughout the land, at other websites, publishers, and game conventions...why?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Because for the SJW crowd, it's never enough.

I just don't even understand why these conventions continue to have any guests of honor.  Nobody is going to cons because of those guests, and they only seem to cause trouble these days. If the Academy Awards can handle a show with no host, a game convention can handle a convention with no special guest.

Quote from: SHARK;1075798Greetings!

Precisely, S'mon.:) In regards to Mentzer, why must there be *further* sanctions or "punishment"--beyond this? He acted jerkishly at Dragonsfoot, and with Price. Great. So, they ban or block him. Mentzer must be censured throughout the land, at other websites, publishers, and game conventions...why?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Because being part of a (internet) lynch mob feels good and it feels righteous.

Quote from: S'mon;1075796Steve ban him from Dragonsfoot.

Yeah, they're kind of a sensitive bunch, almost as bad as those guys on Citizens of the Imperium. What's wrong with just letting everyone say, "Frankie old chum, you're being a cocksmock. Now shut the fuck up and roll the dice."

Frank never got over the fact that beyond his involvement with Gary, nobody really cares about his opinions on RPGs.

Quote from: Mistwell;1075800I just don't even understand why these conventions continue to have any guests of honor.  Nobody is going to cons because of those guests, and they only seem to cause trouble these days. If the Academy Awards can handle a show with no host, a game convention can handle a convention with no special guest.

Gaming should not be compared to Hollywood because Hollywood has nothing to do with gaming, except they have always tried to kill it. Feel free to go to any convention without any special guests.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1075813Because being part of a (internet) lynch mob feels good and it feels righteous.

Hmmm no. There was something else. Something new.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1075814Yeah, they're kind of a sensitive bunch, almost as bad as those guys on Citizens of the Imperium. What's wrong with just letting everyone say, "Frankie old chum, you're being a cocksmock. Now shut the fuck up and roll the dice."

I think because it was sent as a PM not a public rant, and it included an actual threat - it was pretty nasty. Whereas for his open statements on DF attacking* the site I'd probably agree. But Steve didn't ban him lightly.

*And threatening! He threatened the terrible penalty of naming a troll village in his Kickstarter setting after them! :D

We will see if the Academy Awards can get viewers without a host. My bet is audience numbers drop below last year, even with Black Panther nominated.

As for game cons, they don't NEED special guests, but special guests draw in attendees.

When I worked marketing in LA Cons, we definitely noted that special guests increased attendance. Not massive numbers, but definitely those people who enjoyed getting books signed and listening to panels talk.  

Personally, I felt the best guest of honor programs were "Play with the Creator" events. Those events were almost always packed tables with great feedback.

I suspect "special guests" are most important for mid-sized cons/regional events as they convince people to travel/book hotels.

Quote from: Razor 007;1075786I guess he could start MentzerCon?

At this point, there's enough UnPersons to fill a Special Guests list for a BadWrongCon!!

And I bet it would make money.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1075783Mentzer is an idiot. But the day will come when someone accuses Luke Gygax. This is the nature of such a movement: everyone is guilty in the end.

100% agree.

Mentzer's behavior has been idiotic and he deserved to be called out, but this witch hunt bullshit has got to stop.

And the SJW clock is ticking on Luke Gygax. Like Mearls, he won't be able to doubleplus virtue dance forever.

Quote from: EOTB;1075727as I consider the ability to tell anyone in gaming to go fuck themselves to be more valuable than any dozens of gaming dollars.

100% agree.

I'd argue very few jobs are worth surrendering your honest voice.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1075814What's wrong with just letting everyone say, "Frankie old chum, you're being a cocksmock. Now shut the fuck up and roll the dice."

Exactly. That's the alpha and the omega of what was needed to be done, but we now live in American the Dickless.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1075825Mentzer's behavior has been idiotic and he deserved to be called out, but this witch hunt bullshit has got to stop.

Until theirs a huge push back against SJWs and especially vigilante style justice by court of public opinion it will not. We have people who to be part of the cool kids club lose any and all self-respect and throw friends or family under the bus and for what so they can join the cool kids club. Mentzer actions were just stupid and lacked any social survival skills whatsoever.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1075825And the SJW clock is ticking on Luke Gygax. Like Mearls, he won't be able to doubleplus virtue dance forever.

Get woke go broke and he is next. They are not safe. I would not be surprised if Luke does not receive demands and he better do it to either condemn his fathers and/or his rpg. For whatever SJW reason they can find.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1075825At this point, there's enough UnPersons to fill a Special Guests list for a BadWrongCon!!

And I bet it would make money.

No joke, I would do everything I could to go to a BadWrongCon for RPG's.

Hmmm...maybe we should get Venger, Pundit, Grim, and maybe a few others to get this to happen.

I will volunteer as the Master of Ceremonies. Pundit would be the main guest of honor, of course.

Of course, I'd host it in the city known as the "Star City" and the "Goth Capital of the South", and that city is Roanoke, Virginia!

I've always thought in D&D that humans were capable of far more evil than any monster. This treatment of Mentzer shows just how bad the so called community can be when they put their mind to it. Vile.

Great material though. Are my players ever going to get it if they make it back to Neverwinter.

Quote from: mightybrain;1075934I've always thought in D&D that humans were capable of far more evil than any monster. This treatment of Mentzer shows just how bad the so called community can be when they put their mind to it. Vile.

It gets worse - http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?657277-What-the-heck-is-going-on-with-the-professional-RPG-industry-in-regards-to-Zak-S&p=7566424&viewfull=1#post7566424

Sorry for cross-forum drama, but apparently ENW moderation is ok with some dumbfuck calling Mentzer "rapey". :mad:

I hadn't realized ENworld had gone full-RPG.net.

That thread is a laugh-riot, though.  Someone is proposing that the ENnies strip Zak of his awards so that he can't "capitalize" on them and use his awards for future employment.

As if anyone outside of a couple of Internet forums give a rat's ass about the participation trophies known as ENnie Awards...

Hell - I'd bet hard cash that Zak is more widely known than those bullshit awards.

Quote from: jhkim;1075723On the general issue - I think S'mon's comment about criminal activity is off base. Someone doesn't need to be a criminal in order to be disinvited from being a special guest at a convention. If someone acts like a huge jerk, it's totally reasonable for them to stop getting invited to social events like cons.

I agree that Mentzer didn't do drunk leering, but what he did do was blatantly threaten to destroy people's careers in gaming just for disagreeing with him (both Price and EOTB).

You keep trying to peddle that, John, but in Price's case, conveniently, that one portion of his correspondence there is ZERO PROOF for, even though every other aspect is meticulously detailed, as you would expect from a professional victim.

Quote from: jhkimOn the general issue - I think S'mon's comment about criminal activity is off base. Someone doesn't need to be a criminal in order to be disinvited from being a special guest at a convention. If someone acts like a huge jerk, it's totally reasonable for them to stop getting invited to social events like cons.

I agree that Mentzer didn't do drunk leering, but what he did do was blatantly threaten to destroy people's careers in gaming just for disagreeing with him (both Price and EOTB).

Quote from: CRKrueger;1075972You keep trying to peddle that, John, but in Price's case, conveniently, that one portion of his correspondence there is ZERO PROOF for, even though every other aspect is meticulously detailed, as you would expect from a professional victim.

I agree that there was no screen capture of the threat in question, but there wasn't screen capture of nearly all of the exchange. At least in the Twitter feed I saw from Price, there were only two screen captures of Facebook PM exchanges - covering only four messages from Mentzer. Nearly all of the back-and-forth during posts and comments was only described, not captured. So yeah, this part relies on witness testimony - like most allegations.

And really, screen capture isn't proof. It's easy to fake, like a lot of evidence. Witness testimony is crucial to any judgement.

Quote from: jhkim;1075985I agree that there was no screen capture of the threat in question, but there wasn't screen capture of nearly all of the exchange. At least in the Twitter feed I saw from Price, there were only two screen captures of Facebook PM exchanges - covering only four messages from Mentzer. Nearly all of the back-and-forth during posts and comments was only described, not captured. So yeah, this part relies on witness testimony - like most allegations.

And really, screen capture isn't proof. It's easy to fake, like a lot of evidence. Witness testimony is crucial to any judgement.

Well we know what Price is like, and that she timed her revelation of year-old PMs for maximum damage to Mentzer. We also know what Mentzer is like, thanks to the Dragonsfoot debacle. So we can make an educated assessment that he likely said something obnoxious and that she put the worst possible spin on it.

Quote from: S'mon;1075988Well we know what Price is like, and that she timed her revelation of year-old PMs for maximum damage to Mentzer. We also know what Mentzer is like, thanks to the Dragonsfoot debacle. So we can make an educated assessment that he likely said something obnoxious and that she put the worst possible spin on it.

Greetings!

LOL! Such wonderful, verbal surgery, S'mon! :)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1075990Greetings!
LOL! Such wonderful, verbal surgery, S'mon! :)

I'm at my best when I've just had my fourth coffee of the morning. :D

Quote from: S'mon;1075988Well we know what Price is like, and that she timed her revelation of year-old PMs for maximum damage to Mentzer. We also know what Mentzer is like, thanks to the Dragonsfoot debacle. So we can make an educated assessment that he likely said something obnoxious and that she put the worst possible spin on it.

I'd further posit that since we know what Price is like, we know she's an unreliable, dishonest witness, and we shouldn't give anything she says any credibility any longer.

Anyone citing statements by Price as "evidence" should be roundly mocked.

Luke Gygax gets to make the decision about who is an 'honored guest' and who is not an honored guest.  He doesn't owe anyone an explanation of the specific allegations that were made or that he witnessed.  He likes Mentzer.  For whatever reason, he felt that honoring Mentzer at this time sent the wrong message.  

If you think Mentzer should be an honored guest somewhere, you should set up a Con like that.  Maybe he'll be an asshole to you, too, and you'll feel like you made a mistake.  Or not.  But ultimately, the people that attend the Con need to have fun.  They're the people that come back year after year, and if they're not having fun, they won't.  And if they don't, there won't be a Con.  If you think Mentzer is being treated unfairly, don't go.  If you think the Con will be better because he's not there, go.  

But ultimately Con organizers have to take steps to make sure that as many guests as possible have fun.  That's the whole point.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076022Luke Gygax gets to make the decision about who is an 'honored guest' and who is not an honored guest.  He doesn't owe anyone an explanation of the specific allegations that were made or that he witnessed.  He likes Mentzer.  For whatever reason, he felt that honoring Mentzer at this time sent the wrong message.  

If you think Mentzer should be an honored guest somewhere, you should set up a Con like that.  Maybe he'll be an asshole to you, too, and you'll feel like you made a mistake.  Or not.  But ultimately, the people that attend the Con need to have fun.  They're the people that come back year after year, and if they're not having fun, they won't.  And if they don't, there won't be a Con.  If you think Mentzer is being treated unfairly, don't go.  If you think the Con will be better because he's not there, go.  

But ultimately Con organizers have to take steps to make sure that as many guests as possible have fun.  That's the whole point.

Frank Mentzer may be a senile asshole who probably has come down with the Alzheimer's, but that does not make him a predator, despite what Neo-Bolsheviks like Jessica Price and Daniel Fox may say.

That being said, Mentzer is still a senile old asshat and if Luke Gygax doesn't want to invite him to GaryCon, he does have that right. I'm not contesting that.

What I fear is that the Neo-Bolsheviks at places like RPG.net and Onyx Path Forums will use Mentzer's idiocy as an excuse to unperson him and his works (including BECMI D&D, one of the most influential and successful RPG's of its era) now that they already did it to Zak S.

Zak Sabbath is a rapist and a pretentious punk who made some mediocre no-name gaming products.

Frank Mentzer is just a senile Boomer asshat who says and does dumb shit but also made a very influential and popular RPG back before his dementia started to kick in.

There is a world of difference between Zak and Mentzer.

Not having Mentzer as a guest at GaryCon because he's a senile asshole? Understandable. Luke Gygax is being within reason on that one.

Deciding to erase Mentzer and his work from history? Heinous. RPG.net, Daniel Fox, and Jessica Price are just being authoritarian Neo-Bolsheviks on that one.

Also, I think Sailor Moon has some words for you, as well as Jessica Price, Stacy D., Daniel Fox, Olivia Hill, Holden Shearer, Black Hat Matt, and all the fuckers at RPG.net and Onyx Path Forums...

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The guys at North Texas RPG Con have been in touch with Luke, it seems that there is more to it than just the incident(s) with Price, bolding mine.

Quote from: Michael BadolatoFor those interested, we did ask Frank back again to NTRPG con this year, but he declined due to health reasons.

Doug and I back since the beginning have been adamant about the "no politics" rule at our con, and the fact that people of all gaming interests can game here without issue.

The news about Zak Smith and Frank have generated several posts that have come perilously close to something we don't want, which is real life drama injected into our gaming con. Agree with this or not, we believe people come to gaming conventions to game...and the same with this site, which is about promoting gaming and this convention. While real life concerns often demand we address them in other places, the issue with Frank especially is something between him and Garycon/Luke.

I did talk with Luke yesterday and whether I agree fully with him or not, the issue with Frank was a result of many actions, some we are not privy to, not the Price issue in particular. We haven't had the same issues with Frank so I cannot speak for Luke or anyone else about the decisions they made.

Quote from: Motorskills;1076029The guys at North Texas RPG Con have been in touch with Luke, it seems that there is more to it than just the incident(s) with Price, bolding mine.

I'm not opposed to booting Mentzer from the con if needed.

It's obvious that Frank Mentzer is a senile out-of-touch elderly asshat who probably has the Alzheimer's and isn't quite all there anymore.

Just don't unperson him or his work completely. Thankfully, Luke Gygax doesn't want to do that.

The same cannot be said of the Marxist-Leninist/Anarcho-Communist punk rock scumbags at RPG.net who have the ability to put pressure on WOTC into removing BECMI D&D and any other Mentzer product from DTRPG.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076027Frank Mentzer may be a senile asshole who probably has come down with the Alzheimer's, but that does not make him a predator, despite what Neo-Bolsheviks like Jessica Price and Daniel Fox may say.

'Not a predator' is not a sufficient standard to earn a place as a guest of honor.  If it were, I would be the guest of honor everywhere.  'Predator' should probably be a sufficient standard to lose the status of a guest of honor.  'Asshole' is also usually enough to get you uninvited places.  

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076027What I fear is that the Neo-Bolsheviks at places like RPG.net and Onyx Path Forums will use Mentzer's idiocy as an excuse to unperson him and his works (including BECMI D&D, one of the most influential and successful RPG's of its era) now that they already did it to Zak S.

Then address that specifically and stop with the slippery slope.  You can even phrase it as a positive argument - even if a creator is a terrible person in all kinds of ways, they should still receive credit for their work.  I've already done it several times on these forums recently in relation to Zak S.  

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076027Deciding to erase Mentzer and his work from history? Heinous. RPG.net, Daniel Fox, and Jessica Price are just being authoritarian Neo-Bolsheviks on that one.

Who's calling for this?  Who EVEN COULD call for this?  Like, how do you think that will work?  And if you think that's worth fighting against, go to where those people are talking.  Why bother preaching to the choir?  The only reason to do that is that you like the sound of your own voice more than you care about your stated beliefs.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076031The same cannot be said of the Marxist-Leninist/Anarcho-Communist punk rock scumbags at RPG.net who have the ability to put pressure on WOTC into removing BECMI D&D and any other Mentzer product from DTRPG.

  I wouldn't worry about that; the Rules Cyclopedia is still the #1 WotC product at DTRPG.

  However, checking on that did reveal a bit of historical trivia. WotC's been putting old Polyhedrons on DTRPG, and one of them includes an editorial by Mentzer on the D&D controversies of the early 80s. You can read the whole thing in the free preview at https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/265506/Polyhedron-Newszine-V5-5-Issue-26 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/265506/Polyhedron-Newszine-V5-5-Issue-26).

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076032'Not a predator' is not a sufficient standard to earn a place as a guest of honor.  If it were, I would be the guest of honor everywhere.  'Predator' should probably be a sufficient standard to lose the status of a guest of honor.  'Asshole' is also usually enough to get you uninvited places.  

 

Then address that specifically and stop with the slippery slope.  You can even phrase it as a positive argument - even if a creator is a terrible person in all kinds of ways, they should still receive credit for their work.  I've already done it several times on these forums recently in relation to Zak S.  



Who's calling for this?  Who EVEN COULD call for this?  Like, how do you think that will work?  And if you think that's worth fighting against, go to where those people are talking.  Why bother preaching to the choir?  The only reason to do that is that you like the sound of your own voice more than you care about your stated beliefs.

Actually I would take the fight to them, but RPG.net is an authoritarian shithole that perma-bans anyone who even steps out of line with their brand of punk rock communist thought in the slightest.

And as for Olivia Hill and Black Hat Matt, both have a loyal following of Neo-Communists who will dogpile you and shut out any form of opposition, even if it is polite civil disagreement.

Personally, I think the Japanese government should revoke Olivia Hill's legal residency status (since he didn't do anything and is only piggybacking off of his wife's work visa) and ship him off to Portland.

Then if the government actually does have the balls to enact the Second March To The Sea, then that disgusting racist autogynephile commie scumbag can be either shot or detained by the soldiers of the Grand Army of the Republic!

Olivia Hill (also known as David A. Hill) is a scumbag who pretends to be transgender so he can just deflect any criticism of his odious behavior and vile character as "transphobia" (which is an insult to actual transgender people)

Hill is a disgusting sexist autogynephile who is both outwardly misandrist but also inwardly misogynist as despite claiming to be a "listen and believe" feminist, he has defended known pedophile and rapist Matt "Black Hat Matt" MacFarland solely because they share the same social and political beliefs and harassed several women who were abused by Black Hat Matt.

David "Olivia" Hill is a literal communist who has engaged in apologism for Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Trotsky. He is a North Korea sympathizer, and has engaged in systematic doxxing, harassment, and violent threats against innocent people, even fellow leftists solely because they work for a company he personally does not like.

Despite being an American citizen legally living in Japan on his wife's work visa, Hill has made a lot of Anti-American and Anti-Japanese statements and has expressed virulent racism against Whites, Jews, and Japanese.

David "Olivia" Hill is a disgusting piece of shit and a vile excuse for a human being. If there was any one individual that could be the poster boy for a Second March To The Sea, it would be him.

COMMIE PUNKS FUCK OFF!

THE UNION FOREVER! HURRAH BOYS! HURRAH!

So your idea is that the United States army marches on the US West Coast because there's someone you don't like...IN JAPAN?  

So, like, Snowman writes like a 4th grader and your knowledge of geography is worse than a 1st grader's.  I guess you win the stupid contest.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076040So your idea is that the United States army marches on the US West Coast because there's someone you don't like...IN JAPAN?  

So, like, Snowman writes like a 4th grader and your knowledge of geography is worse than a 1st grader's.  I guess you win the stupid contest.

You didn't read the part where I said "deport him to America"

Also, David "Olivia" Hill lives in Japan at the moment, but Black Hat Matt currently lives in America.

And Black Hat Matt is the worse of the two.

Looks like you're the stupid one. You seem to be functionally illiterate.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076046You seem to be functionally illiterate.

No doubt it is deliberate. Constantly shifting semantics are essential to the general obfuscation of reality that is the basis of the narrative. Not sure why anyone even tries to converse with these people.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075857No joke, I would do everything I could to go to a BadWrongCon for RPG's.

Hmmm...maybe we should get Venger, Pundit, Grim, and maybe a few others to get this to happen.

I'd work to attend a real gaming convention like this one. You know, one about ... gaming. No joke.

Quote from: Zalman;1076056Not sure why anyone even tries to converse with these people.

Because we're not censorious, close-minded fucks like other website's forum members and staff?

Quote from: Zalman;1076056No doubt it is deliberate. Constantly shifting semantics are essential to the general obfuscation of reality that is the basis of the narrative. Not sure why anyone even tries to converse with these people.

What people?  People who disagree with you?  

Since Doc Sammy talked about his march to the sea in yesterday in the post quoted below, you can see that originally there was no requirement that any specific individual be included as the target.  I'd also point out that 'really should' would indicate a move from 'just kidding' to 'now I'm serious, or at least moving in that direction'.  

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075938The more WOTC keeps bowing down to the SJW's and their agenda of censorship and punk rock communism, possibly compromising the integrity of D&D 5E in the process, the more I think our government really should enact a second March To The Sea.

Only this new March To The Sea will be in the West Coast instead of the South, the military will be targeting Antifa instead of the Confederate Army, seizing control of universities and Silicon Valley instead of plantations and railroads, and burning down Portland instead of Atlanta.

Hurrah! Hurrah! We'll bring the jubilee!
Hurrah! Hurrah! So expression can be free!
We'll drive the Antifa commies back into the sea!
While we are marching to Portland!

Here's the thing - you don't need to talk to me.  I'm not your boss and I'm not your mother and I'm not going to tell the other kids on the school yard that you're a mean bully.  But just because you don't have to talk to me doesn't mean you shouldn't.  I'm going to make a positive argument for the things that I believe.  You can feel free to ignore them, but if you choose not to rebut them, other people will see those arguments and they may be swayed.  I'm not worried about labels or being categorized as something that is disliked around here (like an SJW or a Communist or Anti-Fa, or whatever) - those labels cease to mean anything if you apply them universally to people who disagree with you.  

Zak S is a relatively major figure in gaming circles (small though they may be), as is Pundit.  The abuse of women is a real problem beyond gaming circles, but because of that, it also intersects with gaming circles.  Acknowledging that there COULD BE a problem shouldn't be controversial.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1076063What people?  People who disagree with you?  

Since Doc Sammy talked about his march to the sea in yesterday in the post quoted below, you can see that originally there was no requirement that any specific individual be included as the target.  I'd also point out that 'really should' would indicate a move from 'just kidding' to 'now I'm serious, or at least moving in that direction'.  



Here's the thing - you don't need to talk to me.  I'm not your boss and I'm not your mother and I'm not going to tell the other kids on the school yard that you're a mean bully.  But just because you don't have to talk to me doesn't mean you shouldn't.  I'm going to make a positive argument for the things that I believe.  You can feel free to ignore them, but if you choose not to rebut them, other people will see those arguments and they may be swayed.  I'm not worried about labels or being categorized as something that is disliked around here (like an SJW or a Communist or Anti-Fa, or whatever) - those labels cease to mean anything if you apply them universally to people who disagree with you.  

Zak S is a relatively major figure in gaming circles (small though they may be), as is Pundit.  The abuse of women is a real problem beyond gaming circles, but because of that, it also intersects with gaming circles.  Acknowledging that there COULD BE a problem shouldn't be controversial.

I hate to use the same meme twice in one day, but....

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Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076027Zak Sabbath ... made some mediocre no-name gaming products...

Frank Mentzer ...made a very influential and popular RPG...

There is a world of difference between Zak and Mentzer.

You appear to be advocating for the Kobe Bryant, Roman Polanski, and Michael Vick defense. IE if they are very good at their profession and popular, they deserve more forgiveness than if they are mediocre at their profession and less popular.*

*Of note: I think Zak is talented at RPG writing and I quite liked Vornheim.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076068I hate to use the same meme twice in one day, but....

but you're just not creative enough to think of a different one?

Quote from: Mistwell;1076087You appear to be advocating for the Kobe Bryant, Roman Polanski, and Michael Vick defense. IE if they are very good at their profession and popular, they deserve more forgiveness than if they are mediocre at their profession and less popular.*

*Of note: I think Zak is talented at RPG writing and I quite liked Vornheim.



but you're just not creative enough to think of a different one?

I'm not saying we should let Mentzer be a guest at GaryCon, what I am saying is WOTC should not remove BECMI D&D solely because Mentzer himself is an ass.

Same goes for Cosby's comedy albums or Polanski's films. And Mentzer is nowhere near as heinous as those two examples.

Go back to Portland, pinko!

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076090I'm not saying we should let Mentzer be a guest at GaryCon, what I am saying is WOTC should not remove BECMI D&D solely because Mentzer himself is an ass.

Same goes for Cosby's comedy albums or Polanski's films. And Mentzer is nowhere near as heinous as those two examples.

I agree. Still waiting for why you think their popularity was an important marker for their differences.

QuoteGo back to Portland, pinko!

Oh you think I am on the left? Do tell.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/tWTHctXXVBjXy/giphy.gif)

Greetings!

Yeah, Mistwell certainly is not a Pinko. Granted, he is a lawyer, which there are many, many liberal lawyers. There are, however, some good conservative lawyers. Mistwell has always been solidly on the right hand of things. Certainly not an SJW!

Good to see you, Mistwell!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I just rolled up a character named Mentzer.

He has high Int, but low Wis.....

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1076027Frank Mentzer...made a very influential and popular RPG...

Eh, I wouldn't go that far. The 1981 Basic and Expert sets already existed. The rules in the revised 1983 versions were almost identical. His biggest changes were in the Basic set, where he reorganized the books into a DM reference and a Players book with that choose-your-own-adventure introduction to D&D thing (Aleena and Bargle and all that). And there were some changes to the "scale" to stretch the levels out to the 36 level top end.

In the later sets, he introduced more stuff that is uniquely "his," like the Weapon Mastery rules and the Immortals rules stuff. It's mostly material that I ignore as either detrimental to the game (IMO) or simply not to my taste.

Frankly, I prefer the '81 Basic and Expert sets over the '83 Basic and Expert sets. I find the organization of the '81 sets to be better for actual long term use/play (that choose your own adventure thing is just a waste after you've been introduced to the game. It would've been better as a insert, not as part of the rulebook). I also like the level scale of the 81 sets better. They're more suited to the kind of level range that I actually see in D&D games. Lastly, I prefer the art of the '81 sets, although many might disagree with me on that one.

It is a bit ironic that the best Basic in Moldvay '81 (once you know how to play), but the best Expert is Mentzer '83. Mentzer's Expert is the only one to be a single book, all the rest of BECMI suffers rather from padding. When I ran a several-year BECM campaign recently it was definitely the heart of the campaign, and pretty well-worn by the end!

As far as art goes, I find it just depends what kind of mood I want. I used BECM because my son, who was only about 6 at the time, pointed to my Larry Elmore art book and said that was the kind of game he wanted for his first D&D campaign. I enjoyed embracing the High Fantasy tropes - his PC started off as an MU-4 riding a white dragon, duelling an evil red dragonrider over the skies of Alasiya and returning to marry the princess of Karameikos. :) The rejected choice of Frazetta art we played later - Wilderlands & now Primeval Thule. :)

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1076125In the later sets, he introduced more stuff that is uniquely "his," like the Weapon Mastery rules and the Immortals rules stuff. It's mostly material that I ignore as either detrimental to the game (IMO) or simply not to my taste.

It's slightly unfair that you mention two of his weaker contributions and not the IMO-excellent Dominion and War Machine/mass battle rules in the companion set, which I tend to use in most of the versions of D&D I run.

I definitely prefer Moldvay and Holmes over Mentzer for BD&D, but in actual play, its not a big deal.

Quote from: Zalman;1076059I'd work to attend a real gaming convention like this one. You know, one about ... gaming. No joke.

Fortunately, most regional conventions and small cons are about gaming. It's the national cons (GenCon and Origins) that are virtue signalling.

Of course, a con deep in SJW country is also probably going to be a shitshow. GaryCon seems to want on the Virtue Train and that choo choo goes to Go Woke Go Broke Town.

And I'd argue small cons are FAR better for actual gaming than national cons.

As long as grognards are still alive and well, Mentzer can't be erased from the history of the game.

My D&D library doesn't include any of the B/X branch of the family tree, other than a good clone of OD&D.  My library's focus is OD&D, to 1E, forward.  But I'm familiar with the history of the B/X products.  Mentzer was a big deal, and has a legacy there, period.

Quote from: S'mon;1076149It's slightly unfair that you mention two of his weaker contributions and not the IMO-excellent Dominion and War Machine/mass battle rules in the companion set, which I tend to use in most of the versions of D&D I run.

I think the war machine rules are fine, for what they are. (That is, I don't actively dislike them like I do the weapons mastery and immortals rules.) I used them a few times, a long time ago, but I found that if I'm going to do any mass combat in a D&D campaign, I like using minis (or counters) and actual tabletop warfare rules of one sort or another. I've used Chainmail for this, and also Field of Glory. The war machine rules are more abstract. I imagine that works well for many people. I just like the wargaming opportunity that mass combat provides, so I don't want to exclude it by getting too abstract.

Quote from: Razor 007;1076177As long as grognards are still alive and well, Mentzer can't be erased from the history of the game.

I don't think this was directed at my comments, but just to be clear, I'm certainly not proposing that Mentzer be erased from the history of the game.

QuoteMy D&D library doesn't include any of the B/X branch of the family tree, other than a good clone of OD&D.  My library's focus is OD&D, to 1E, forward.  But I'm familiar with the history of the B/X products.

I've owned and have played all the TSR editions, at one point or another (although I'd quit buying by the time TSR got around to releasing what people refer to as the "2.5" books, so I don't own those). I don't play B/X (or BECMI) these days. (I wouldn't turn down a game, I just prefer some of the other editions). These days I either run 1e AD&D (when I want a traditional D&D game with the classic tropes/etc), or I run my house-ruled original D&D game (starting with the little brown books and cherry picking/adding house rules to suit my taste and the campaign).

QuoteMentzer was a big deal, and has a legacy there, period.

Sure. He edited a successful release of D&D. And he edited and finished Gygax's Temple of Elemental Evil, which is also noteworthy, historically. And he was instrumental in organizing the RPGA.

Quote from: S'mon;1076149It's slightly unfair that you mention two of his weaker contributions and not the IMO-excellent Dominion and War Machine/mass battle rules in the companion set, which I tend to use in most of the versions of D&D I run.

They weren't his contributions.  They were Doug Niles' and Garry Spiegle's.  Frank deserves credit for war machine about as much as Gygax deserves credit for Oriental Adventures over Zeb Cook.  He certainly doesn't deserve the same sort of credit as his authentic work, like the choose-your-own-adventure portion.  

QuoteA shout-out (one more time):

ouat, I was a good project director. I knew exactly what I wanted, and described it conceptually in great detail. I picked 2 guys, Doug Niles and Garry Spiegle.  

I wanted a number-crunching system to handle battles. I didn't care how math-heavy it got, but simpler was better, and adding/subtracting was better than dividing/multiplying. It had to account for the usual factors in such battles, and troops -- just every monster in the entire game system (!).

The tricky parts: It had to accommodate any scale (50, 500, 500000). It had to include a way for the DMs and players to select a level of involvement (story focus). And it had to include the PC influence (huge, at Companion levels).

They delivered. That was War Machine (which begat Siege Machine and Sea Machine).

Thanks Doug, Garry. Your outstanding work is remembered.

F

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1421502#p1421502

Quote from: EOTB;1076203They weren't his contributions.  They were Doug Niles' and Garry Spiegle's.  Frank deserves credit for war machine about as much as Gygax deserves credit for Oriental Adventures over Zeb Cook.  He certainly doesn't deserve the same sort of credit as his authentic work, like the choose-your-own-adventure portion.  




https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1421502#p1421502

OK, cool.

Quote from: S'mon;1076148As far as art goes, I find it just depends what kind of mood I want. I used BECM because my son, who was only about 6 at the time, pointed to my Larry Elmore art book and said that was the kind of game he wanted for his first D&D campaign.

Your son has outstanding taste.

The cover from the BECMI Basic set pretty much defines Dungeons and Dragons for me.

My first exposure to DnD was through the Mentzer Red box so to be honest I would probably have to see him eating a baby to change my opinion of him.

I am still hopeful that we will be able to get a Kickstarter of Worlds of Empyrea at some stage before shipping gets too expensive.

Quote from: EOTB;1075742As a generality, I'd say that when a narcissist is receiving more supply than they normally do, they're typically charming, happy, cuddly people who leave you feeling wonderful, not in danger.  Frank at cons is probably the safest he is ever going to be.  Those who know him better will decide if that's safe enough.

But when everyone was commenting on my situation about how wonderful Frank was personally to them, primarily at conventions, I didn't doubt them at all.  In fact, bad convention behavior would have been a piece of Frank's personality puzzle that didn't fit, rather than one that confirmed my suspicions.

Quote from: Omega;1075745I have met a few artists who were like that too. Really nice at cons. But once they got out of sight they Jekyll/Hyde into some of the worst people. And a few who were the opposite. Really unpleasant at a con. Which cost them commissions. But pretty nice once out of the public.

This is why we should never treat real life and online life as the same thing, as many in the Zak threads on #Reddit were arguing for, perhaps in an attempt to draw some correlation between his online behavior and what he's now accused of. But people are complicated, and these sorts of seemingly meaningful correlations are incredibly dangerous because they're the very foundation of all the bigotry everyone seems to have a problem with.

When I heard about this I got a copy of BECMI and decided to run a game of it with my wife and daughters. This is going to be the edition of D&D that they will play just like I did back in the day.

Quote from: Blink_Dog;1076468When I heard about this I got a copy of BECMI and decided to run a game of it with my wife and daughters. This is going to be the edition of D&D that they will play just like I did back in the day.

Good choice! It was my son (Bill, 11)'s first D&D too, when he was 6-8, and the lessons in Mentzer BECM set him up great to be a good player for life.

Quote from: S'mon;1076469Good choice! It was my son (Bill, 11)'s first D&D too, when he was 6-8, and the lessons in Mentzer BECM set him up great to be a good player for life.

Agreed. I remember it being the game that gave me the greatest enjoyment to least anguish ratio of any RPG that I have played. I don't remember too many rules arguments or nitpicking.

Frank responds:
https://www.facebook.com/frank.mentzer/posts/2166010183478721

Quote from: mightybrain;1077041Frank responds:
https://www.facebook.com/frank.mentzer/posts/2166010183478721

In 2015, I had a security problem (unauthorized use of my desktop computer), the only one in 10 years. But Dragonsfoot simply closed my account and never responded to my emails. They never handled the matter properly or fairly.

I did not write or send the nasty private message being quoted publicly. The recipient joined Dragonsfoot moderators Silvey, Marshall, and Gonnerman (the latter two having written OSRIC and BFRP, respectively) to make their accusations public at another website (Knights & Knaves Alehouse, now a locked NSFW thread). Their tales have been widely circulated in place of the facts.

Ironically if he had just said "sorry" instead of "My account was hacked" or now "Someone else used my PC", I think he'd be forgiven. Dragonsfoot is hardly a haven of SJWs out to destroy Cis White Men. It also brings the credibility of his account of his interaction with Price into question.

Quote from: mightybrain;1077041Frank responds:
https://www.facebook.com/frank.mentzer/posts/2166010183478721

Yeah, I remember that stuff. He's lying, of course...the admins pretty much proved it was the same IP as his usual system, so some nefarious anti-Mentzer fan had to not only hack his Dragonsfoot account, but also his personal machine to send those message. The real story is probably something like, "Old man gets drunk and sends some messages he regrets. The End."

EDIT: I mean about the messageboard threats. I'm convinced the nonsense with that SJW reactionary are true.

Unfortunate as it casts doubt on the rest of what he says... but I didn't make the connection between Price and her later behaviors.

Quote from: Brad;1077050Yeah, I remember that stuff. He's lying, of course...the admins pretty much proved it was the same IP as his usual system, so some nefarious anti-Mentzer fan had to not only hack his Dragonsfoot account, but also his personal machine to send those message. The real story is probably something like, "Old man gets drunk and sends some messages he regrets. The End."

EDIT: I mean about the messageboard threats. I'm convinced the nonsense with that SJW reactionary are true.

Yeah, his story about "I was hacked" changed to "I had a house guest that I refuse to dox" in the comments, when confronted by Paul Stuart Tucker. I find it amazing that anyone actually buys that explanation. The initial exchange goes:

QuotePaul Stuart Tucker In no particular order
Dragonsfoot investigated and did not substantiate your claim of being 'hacked'. It was also consistent with other messages you've said, contained information that only someone in your position would know and people can read the PM you sent, other insulting PMs you sent and more information regarding why you were banned from Dragonsfoot here:

http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14851

You've misrepresented your exchanges with Price above
Price's tweets about you came after you'd already posted about relaunching the kickstarter and its funding had collapsed.
Here's your post from the 16th of October claiming you were delaying the relaunch that you'd already announced

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/extsr/frank-mentzers-empyrea-fantasy-setting-for-10-rpg/posts/2016905

Here's the funding tracker for the kickstarter showing the complete collapse in backers and funding before Price said anything:

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/extsr/frank-mentzers-empyrea-fantasy-setting-for-10-rpg/

So two days before those tweets, it had already gone negative in funding and backers withdrawing from the project.
There's a lot more out there, but really that all discredits your claim, as it was discredited at the time when you did the 'it wasn't me' original defence.

QuoteFrank Mentzer  I fully concur that the social media negativity make realistic assessment of success bleak, removing all chance of success. :) , You think we were already doomed, that the people I paid to run the KS had already blown it. We were all still striving for success, and none of the guest stars had yet arrived on the public PR scene.

QuoteFrank Mentzer  Others maintain that since the message was sent from my computer, it must have been me personally. It was a house guest, who I refuse to Dox. Examine the dozens of selfies on the internet of people at my desk, using or next to that exact computer. Convict me of being lax in security, and hang me in absentia on other charges.

Quote from: mightybrain;1077041Frank responds:
https://www.facebook.com/frank.mentzer/posts/2166010183478721

Having seen someone using someones else computer and account, his story seems very plausible to me.

Quote from: jhkim;1077064Yeah, his story about "I was hacked" changed to "I had a house guest that I refuse to dox" in the comments, when confronted by Paul Stuart Tucker. I find it amazing that anyone actually buys that explanation. The initial exchange goes:

Cult of personality is a real thing. People don't like having their childhood idols destroyed, and are willing to buy whatever flimsy excuse that keeps them perfect. Mentzer Red Box was my first rpg, and pretty much still in my Top 3. When I met Mentzer at NTRPG Con a few years back, it was really cool and I'll admit I had some celebrity shock. But I'm also not an idiot; if Clint Eastwood (my favorite actor and director, bar none) murdered someone and it was on video, I'd say, yeah, I guess he's a murderer. I surely wouldn't believe some horseshit about fabricated videos and body doubles or whatever, as I'm sure SOME would be suckered into.

From those posts, it's not hard to connect the dots: Mentzer's Kickstarter was failing, he didn't know how to deal with a negative campaign against him, and he lashed out. So, yeah, harm and foul sure, but don't fucking lie about it. Everyone can be a dick every so often; if he had fessed up and apologized, I bet Dragonsfoot wouldn't have banned him. As an aside, I had my DF account deleted because of too many autistic fucktards were posting incessantly and it was rather annoying. I check out the forums every once in a while and lo, the same idiots who annoyed me before using the same tired old arguments. why Mentzer was banned for bad behavior is beyond me, as there are PLENTY of people on DF who are arguably worse.

I don't know about Dragon's Foot or what posts Frank Mentzer was responding to there, but I don't think that 'someone responded from my computer' is very convincing.  While that type of thing COULD happen, the only people that should be able to access your computer are people you trust.  If I was trying to play a prank and sent a message, I'd have come forward immediately and said how sorry I was for making trouble for my friend.  Keep in mind  that I work for a company that requires you to lock your computer; if you don't, as a prank people will start an e-mail to the CEO (but of course won't send it).  If someone that I trusted violated that trust and didn't admit to it, I think I'd be willing to accept the consequences - claiming that it was someone else but then refusing to name them means letting the buck stop with me.  

I can't see why someone else WOULD have sent a PM like that.  It doesn't look like much of a joke; it doesn't look like a 'protective friend'.  

I think admitting that you were angry and weren't thinking clearly and you wish you could apologize and take it back would go farther.  Depending on how much other stuff there is, I think I could accept the community banning me if they didn't feel that my apology was sufficiently sincere.  Nobody owes you a platform.

Apply Occam's razor to the possibilities:

• Frank got annoyed at EOTB and sent an ill-considered and threatening PM that mirrored the same kind of sentiments that he had posted (and has admitted to posting) publicly, but upped the hostility. Now he regrets it, and is annoyed that his "private communication" ever became public, but he doesn't want to admit to anything, so he's fallen back on "I was hacked" or "Someone else used my computer" or whatever else to throw doubt on the situation.
• Frank was hacked (pretty much debunked as completely implausible in light of the server logs/activity/IPs/etc., already)
• A guest of Frank's used Frank's computer and decided to use Frank's DF account to send an ill-considered and threatening PM to another gamer. A PM that mirrored the same kind of sentiments that Frank had previously posted publicly. This person skillfully mirrored not only Frank's sentiments, but even idiosyncrasies of grammar (e.g., capitalization) and phrasing. Despite the fallout from his guest treating Frank so poorly by pretending to be him, Frank valiantly preserves his guest's anonymity.

Which of these seems most likely to be true?

Personally, I think Frank sent the PM. I think he should've owned up to it, said he got angry and did something stupid, apologized, and asked for forgiveness. I can respect that. I've done and said stupid stuff I regretted, later. I can understand that. Given the information made public (e.g, the content of the messages, the public posts, the server log info), claiming to be hacked (and now claiming a known person used his computer but not saying who that might be) fails to impress.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1077086Occam's razor.

• Frank got annoyed at EOTB and sent an ill-considered and threatening PM that mirrored the same kind of sentiments that he had posted (and has admitted to posting) publicly, but upped the hostility. Now he regrets it, and is annoyed that his "private communication" ever became public, but he doesn't want to admit to anything, so he's fallen back on "I was hacked" or "Someone else used my computer" or whatever else to throw doubt on the situation.
• Frank was hacked (pretty much debunked as completely implausible in light of the server logs/activity/IPs/etc., already)
• A guest of Frank's used Frank's computer and decided to use Frank's account to send an ill-considered and threatening PM to another gamer that mirrored the same kind of sentiments that Frank had previously posted publicly. This person skillfully mirrored not only Frank's sentiments, but even idiosyncrasies of grammar (e.g., capitalization) and phrasing. Despite the fallout from his guest treating Frank so poorly by pretending to be him, Frank valiantly preserves his guest's anonymity.

Which of these seems most likely to be true?

Personally, I think Frank sent the PM. I think he should've owned up to it, said he got angry and did something stupid, apologized, and asked for forgiveness. I can respect that. I've done and said stupid stuff I regretted, later. I can understand that. Given the information made public (e.g, the content of the messages, the public posts, the server log info), claiming to be hacked (and now claiming a known person used his computer but not saying who that might be) fails to impress.

Yeah, I think this is exactly right. The threatening PM to EOTB was either Mentzer or a master forger, it sounded exactly like him with extra ladles of hostility & pomposity. I don't think there's any reasonable doubt. It's more likely that Zak S is the wholly innocent victim of a gynocentric conspiracy than that Frank M didn't send that PM.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1077086Apply Occam's razor to the possibilities:

• Frank got annoyed at EOTB and sent an ill-considered and threatening PM that mirrored the same kind of sentiments that he had posted (and has admitted to posting) publicly, but upped the hostility. Now he regrets it, and is annoyed that his "private communication" ever became public, but he doesn't want to admit to anything, so he's fallen back on "I was hacked" or "Someone else used my computer" or whatever else to throw doubt on the situation.
• Frank was hacked (pretty much debunked as completely implausible in light of the server logs/activity/IPs/etc., already)
• A guest of Frank's used Frank's computer and decided to use Frank's DF account to send an ill-considered and threatening PM to another gamer. A PM that mirrored the same kind of sentiments that Frank had previously posted publicly. This person skillfully mirrored not only Frank's sentiments, but even idiosyncrasies of grammar (e.g., capitalization) and phrasing. Despite the fallout from his guest treating Frank so poorly by pretending to be him, Frank valiantly preserves his guest's anonymity.

Which of these seems most likely to be true?

Personally, I think Frank sent the PM. I think he should've owned up to it, said he got angry and did something stupid, apologized, and asked for forgiveness. I can respect that. I've done and said stupid stuff I regretted, later. I can understand that. Given the information made public (e.g, the content of the messages, the public posts, the server log info), claiming to be hacked (and now claiming a known person used his computer but not saying who that might be) fails to impress.

Greetings!

Excellent, Philo. I was just thinking of Occam's Razor as well. I think that your option #1 is the only logical choice.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

With or without Mentzer, Dragonsfoot tends to maximise the drama in any situation. Moderation for civility always ends up that way. You don't stop a pot from boiling over by putting a lid on it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1077107With or without Mentzer, Dragonsfoot tends to maximise the drama in any situation. Moderation for civility always ends up that way. You don't stop a pot from boiling over by putting a lid on it.

Interesting point. My biggest problem with DF were the threads that were derailed by ideologues who insisted it was their way or the highway from a rules standpoint. Like it never crossed their mind someone could arbitrate the game differently AND STILL HAVE FUN. I got a week ban or something for daring to insinuate someone was a fucktard for insisting I was wrong about some insignificant detail of the rules. That's when I quit. So, yeah, your comments hit home.

Here goes my yearly post on the RPG Site. So sad that it can't be about a friendlier topic.

So, I met Frank once, in the early 2010s, at a small convention in Europe. Because I was already involved with the management of a few community websites back then, because most of the people I met there were also well-known members of the oldschool community, because the con was fairly small, and because we frankly hit it off pretty well, I got to hang out with Frank on several occasions over these three or four days.

My impression of him in person couldn't have been more positive: He was laid back, patient, classy, and educated. The way you imagine a friendly older gentleman to be like. If at all, the one thing about Frank that could be said to not be entirely positive was that he had at least the same fun, if not more, to talk about non-nerdy topics as he had about talking about D&D. To me, that was pretty great, because it made him "a person" to me, not an ultimately interchangeable RPG dictionary.


Frank was in the process of founding his "Eldritch Enterprises" (I think that was the name) back then, a small company that was supposed to publish his and other TSR-era writers' work on an "indie" basis. If you've never heard of that company, then it's because the project, essentially, was a failure: The company released some 15-something PDF modules, yes - but none of them were particularly noteworthy to larger audiences. Also, the lack of marketing and the company's limited financial capability to provide state-of-the-art illustrations, maps, and layout design contributed to it basically going in and out of the industry without anyone taking notice. That's the worst way for an entrepreneurial endeavor to go down - not as a failure, but as a footnote.

The reason I am mentioning this is not to shame Frank even more, but because it will highlight something to the public that I think is being critically overlooked, in the middle this shameful series of events:

Nobody I talked to about Eldritch Enterprises, online and offline, was surprised that the company quickly went out of business - because it generally will take you five minutes of talking to Frank to figure out that he is not an entrepreneur fit for the modern internet-based published industry. He simply is not. He is not, in the sense that I myself shouldn't aspire to become a Formula One race car driver, or in the sense that your ten-year-old son shouldn't perform clinical surgery on you: It might look easy, and it might be fun at first; but it will end very badly.

That's not a snide against Frank,though, not at all. Just let it sink in: Whatever his background in game design and other business ventures, he lacks the skill and the education to run a successful gaming company according to 21st-century business standards. And everybody fucking knew.

There is something to be said to make the aforementioned "friendly older gentleman" the CEO of your company, or to take his money knowing full-well what to expect. Let's say it, for a change: It's irresponsible and and unethical, and it should be severely punished, so we all can make sure that the remaining elders of our hobby, be it Frank, or RJK, or anybody else, are, at the very least, left alone.


...But of course nobody says that.

Instead, somebody had the not-so-brilliant idea to have Frank do the viral marketing for "Empyrea", and send him back to DF. (A community that he had theatrically left two or three years earlier over some completely avoidable melodrama.) - Now, now, maybe Frank made this bad decision by himself, maybe he talked to nobody else before he posted his weird and indefensible tirades on DF. Maybe that's how it went.
- Or maybe the gentlemen who were actually in charge of business and marketing - you can look up their names here (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/extsr/frank-mentzers-empyrea-fantasy-setting-for-10-rpg?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=empyrea) - could have been so diligent as to do what they were paid for: To put his name in Google, for starters! And, consequently devise a marketing strategy that didn't attract controversy.

Again, these guys were supposedly doing this for actual money, somehow, and it's not like the RPG crowdfunding scene would have been "undiscovered country" by 2017: They should have controlled the viral marketing, not Frank. Frank, ideally, should have been invisible during the entire production process, by any professional standards. - But they didn't do that. Why?!


The same thing, now, two years later: Frank's recent statements on Facebook, and a hole dug just deep enough that he'll never make it out of it again.

If he has any friends left in this world, who the hell advised him to write this by himself?! - Pay a lawyer, pay a publicist; it's still cheaper than a month of unforced internet drama. Because it takes no time to question the appropriateness of Luke Gygax' public disinvitation, as it takes no time outing Jessica Price as a questionable character of, at this point, memetic proportions. - Unless, of course, you write your statement on your laptop, on the table in your kitchen, blinded by your own indignation.

...But, of course, apparently nobody said that, either.


So, what are we left with? - One of the elders of our hobby disintegrates before our eyes.

I am not to going to engage in the usual, convenient whataboutism, and ask whether Frank is really paying the fee for Bill Webb, Zak S, and others.
I am not going to deny that Frank has acted stupidly, that he has acted like a fucking idiot, even.

- But I think we all should ask why apparently nobody cared to save him from all those unforced errors.
A community needs to take care of its icons, and the oldschool community has clearly failed Frank.

Quote from: Rafael;1077152A community needs to take care of its icons, and the oldschool community has clearly failed Frank.

I don't think the "oldschool community" as a whole has a duty to do more than give him a fair shake. Which he got from Dragonsfoot mods - more than fair I'd say. And I think most of us have been pretty charitable to Frank overall - there's definitely a "more in sorrow" vibe. Even EOTB who was directly targeted by him doesn't seem to bear him much animus. We just wish he would own up and apologise for being a jerk, rather than this computer hacked/unauthorised access malarkey. However I do agree the people (supposedly) in charge of 'Business' for the Empyrea project may well have let him down.

IMO Empyrea always looked wildly over ambitious, a disaster waiting to happen. It may have been for the best it got shut down early. I worry this was basically Frank's foolishness being exploited by people he was paying to help him.

Quote from: S'mon;1077154I don't think the "oldschool community" as a whole has a duty to do more than give him a fair shake. Which he got from Dragonsfoot mods - more than fair I'd say. And I think most of us have been pretty charitable to Frank overall - there's definitely a "more in sorrow" vibe. Even EOTB who was directly targeted by him doesn't seem to bear him much animus. We just wish he would own up and apologise for being a jerk, rather than this computer hacked/unauthorised access malarkey.

Absolutely. Let's not misunderstand one another: There is no way to excuse Frank's behavior in '17. It defies imagination that he could be so careless and stupid, both from a private and from a business perspective.

I have been an outspoken critic of DF's way of moderation in the past; I was one of the people who stopped posting there after Frank left the first time, back in '13, and I still think I was right about doing so, then. However, the admin squad did nothing wrong there when they handled the situation in '17, and EOTB's comments didn't seem out of line to me either, especially in reference to "Castle Zagyg". In fact, behind the scenes, this spurned some overdue reconciliation between many of us who fancy themselves "shepherds of the hobby": We might disagree on some things from time to time, but this wasn't one of those occasions.

I also agree that Frank might have been lucky the community didn't take this even more to heart: After all, he was at GaryCon in '18, and, until he himself retired from them as well, he kept a considerable audience in other online fora than on DF.

The problem was that this happened in the first place - from the doomed KS to the online drama. The whole "Empyrea" project should never ever have gone public the way it did, and with the general tone that it did. But that's not Frank's responsibility alone; that the responsibility of the people who handled the practical side of the project for him, and did a miserable job.

QuoteIMO Empyrea always looked wildly over ambitious, a disaster waiting to happen. It may have been for the best it got shut down early. I worry this was basically Frank's foolishness being exploited by people he was paying to help him.

Precisely. But what does this tell us? - No market research was done, no marketing strategy was devised, no goals, no timetable, no realistic vision for the project was formed. I am simply not buying the narrative that Frank, a retired baker, really was so foolhardy that it would border on severe schizophrenia, and overruled all more sensible suggestions by the actual industry professionals that were supposed to advice him. Again, using Ockham's razor, the only valid conclusion seems to be that those people probably simply didn't care to do their job.

I missed the drama, back then, but I didn't miss the fallout: People were not angry with Frank; people were confused, for the most part. Because it - again - simply defies imagination that somebody could bring a project that might have been a safe sale to this point of FUBAR.

Quote from: Rafael;1077162Again, using Ockham's razor, the only valid conclusion seems to be that those people probably simply didn't care to do their job.

My suspicion would be that they took his money and justified it as "Oh, he's an experienced Industry Professional, he knows what he's doing." This is pretty easy to do - I can certainly recall times I've allowed my boss to screw things up and not tried to stop him/her, thinking "Oh, s/he surely must know better than me!" - even though I had a strong gut feeling things were not going to go well.

Quote from: S'mon;1077163My suspicion would be that they took his money and justified it as "Oh, he's an experienced Industry Professional, he knows what he's doing." This is pretty easy to do - I can certainly recall times I've allowed my boss to screw things up and not tried to stop him/her, thinking "Oh, s/he surely must know better than me!" - even though I had a strong gut feeling things were not going to go well.

I get where you're coming from, but I don't think this diminishes the amount of professional negligence that was committed here:

Chris Wiese, former vice prez of GAMA.
Kevin Wilson - not the one of "Spycraft" fame, but a prolific blogger who runs a "leadership consulting business", among other things.
Mike Myler, EnWorld contributor, podcaster, blogger, and project manager for a number of bigger and smaller indie publishing projects.

And all three of those, with their stellar backgrounds, are going to tell us that they had no idea what they were getting into? That they had no pulse on the weaknesses, and on the threats to this particular project - back when everyone else could tell that it would be doomed from the start?


Naah.

I have no personal beef with those guys; I don't know them. But this needs to be called out: Frank suggests that he payed them. I want to see what he was billed for.

Quote from: Rafael;1077168I get where you're coming from, but I don't think this diminishes the amount of professional negligence that was committed here:

Chris Wiese, former vice prez of GAMA.
Kevin Wilson - not the one of "Spycraft" fame, but a prolific blogger who runs a "leadership consulting business", among other things.
Mike Myler, EnWorld contributor, podcaster, blogger, and project manager for a number of bigger and smaller indie publishing projects.

And all three of those, with their stellar backgrounds, are going to tell us that they had no idea what they were getting into? That they had no pulse on the weaknesses, and on the threats to this particular project - back when everyone else could tell that it would be doomed from the start?


Naah.

I have no personal beef with those guys; I don't know them. But this needs to be called out: Frank suggests that he payed them. I want to see what he was billed for.

I expect you are probably right. Of course they may have just been names on a page. There were an awful lot of famous names listed in the Empyrea Kickstarter.

That's a theoretical possibility as well, of course. But then, why should Frank lie about the two no-name bloggers, at least? Why has none of the allegedly affected spoken out on this until now?

"Empyrea" is essentially Frank's "life's work" as a game designer, and the setting is well known to already exist in writing; it's not like he would have had any difficulty publishing it under other circumstances. As a reviewer said somewhere else, if the Kickstarter had been set up differently, this had the potential of being a genre success. - The campaign itself didn't go particularly badly, either; just not even near the vicinity of what Frank wanted to bring in. ...Which again begs the question of who the hell advised him to try and make 250k in advances for a product whose production costs would lie between 15 and 20k.

Of course, if we postulate that Frank might simply be a nutcase, we can relegate just about everything to his supposed poor judgment. But, again, why would that be appropriate? Despite his beef with Dragonsfoot, Frank was a universally respected, even "beloved" member of the oldschool community until the events of 2017.

Quote from: Rafael;1077173Which again begs the question of who the hell advised him to try and make 250k in advances for a product whose production costs would lie between 15 and 20k.

Of course, if we postulate that Frank might simply be a nutcase, we can relegate just about everything to his supposed poor judgment.

I'm not sure he needs to be a literal nutcase to make this error. He may have seen how much Monte Cook raked in (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/montecookgames/numenera-a-new-roleplaying-game-from-monte-cook) and decided he wanted in on those sweet sweet KS megabucks!

Quote from: S'mon;1077154I don't think the "oldschool community" as a whole has a duty to do more than give him a fair shake.

Ostracism for a bit of private ranting (with provocation) is a fair shake? This isn't a community, it's The Hunger Games.

Quote from: mightybrain;1077179Ostracism for a bit of private ranting (with provocation) is a fair shake? This isn't a community, it's The Hunger Games.

He sent EOTB a threatening and very unpleasant PM on Dragonsfoot.

EOTB can be annoying. I understand Mentzer being annoyed. I have myself been annoyed by EOTB. I hold no brief for EOTB. What Mentzer did was more than sufficient to warrant a forum ban.

Again, this is where everybody has to agree - Frank did not act smartly in the way he behaved on DF. However, the error lies in him going there, in the first place. With the turbulent backstory he had with that community at that point already, having "ragequit" DF on an earlier occasion - how come this wasn't handled by Myler, or anyone else actually employed for marketing purposes?

If Frank hadn't posted in that thread, no problem at all. A bit of minor internet banter, and a lot of pretty legit criticism, but no world-shattering drama.

Quote from: SHARK;1075619Greetings!

I've read Frank's exchanges with Price. Price is an SJW nutjob. Having said that, Mentzer seems to also be socially retarded. Why is a man in his 60's for God's sake even involving himself in stupid conversations on Facebook and Twitter with women half his age? Why is he acting like a jackass to other people? I just do not understand why this guy, an old school game developer, senior gaming statesman, assumed to be married--why does he fail to enjoy a pleasant, gracious time in dignified semi-retirement? It's like Mentzer feels some obsessive need to vault himself into the public square, eager to court drama and controversy at every turn.

I just don't understand some of these people who, heretofore, have built up a great reputation and legacy, and yet, seem all too eager to piss all over it and have so much of what they have spent decades developing, erode and vanish virtually overnight. I can only imagine what his wife and family must be saying to him. Wow, you know?

It's still sad to see him declared persona non grata at such an event as prestigious as GaryCon. How embarassing, you know?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

He did say he is married: https://www.facebook.com/frank.mentzer/posts/2166010183478721

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1077083I don't know about Dragon's Foot or what posts Frank Mentzer was responding to there, but I don't think that 'someone responded from my computer' is very convincing.  While that type of thing COULD happen, the only people that should be able to access your computer are people you trust.

Just last month over on BGG we had a designer mysteriously vanish in mid design, and he deleted his account and all posts.
Just recent he returned and claims that this was done from his work computer by a spiteful co-worker.

Quote from: Rafael;1077152- But I think we all should ask why apparently nobody cared to save him from all those unforced errors.
A community needs to take care of its icons, and the oldschool community has clearly failed Frank.

Seen this before. The reason is simple. Yet not. Assuming the person sis not just sally fourth on their own accord.

Someone did not know and greenlighted it.
Or did know, at least a little, but thought the person had changed.
Or did or did not know and said person was the only one willing to take charge.
Or it was that persons aegis in the first place and others are usually reluctant to derail a dream.
It is even possible someone tried and failed. (I know how hard this one is from personal experience.)

As for Mentzer and all this. It is weird. Mentzer acts the internet bully and gets demonized. Jackson does it, and gets a pat on the back for his good deeds.

Quote from: Rafael;1077162Absolutely. Let's not misunderstand one another: There is no way to excuse Frank's behavior in '17. It defies imagination that he could be so careless and stupid, both from a private and from a business perspective.

Youd be surprised how many publishers misbehave, and more oft than not get away with it even. I suspect some do because they believe that their fanbase is more fanatic than fan and so whatever they do. They will be supported, defended. And some are unfortunately right.

Maybee Mentzer thought the same? I doubt it. I think he just posted without thinking at all of the possible rammifications. Its way too common a thing on and offline.

Quote from: Rafael;1077173...Which again begs the question of who the hell advised him to try and make 250k in advances for a product whose production costs would lie between 15 and 20k.

That one is easy, and its a fallacy that pops up fairly often.

Production costs say 15k?
What about art fees? Shipping fees? Royalties? Is that all bundled into that 15k?
Even if it is. All this means is that at that point your product broke even at best. Lost money at worst. You have to set the cost per unit to more than the cost to produce. It used to be this was so as there was funds for the next product and paying advertising, office space, etc. Theres alot of hidden cots the average joe and even supposedly educated designers keep overlooking.

All that said. Theres a point past which things get over-ambitious and you undermine your chances. Here is where they should have known better. But I have seen even pros screw this up. Usually because even with research some factors just never occurred to them. Or as was noted above. They looked at someone elses project and did not look at any deeper than the surface details.

So who knows what the thought process went into the KS. But from experience I'd guess that they really just did not think it through all the way. Or as

Quote from: Rafael;1077182If Frank hadn't posted in that thread, no problem at all. A bit of minor internet banter, and a lot of pretty legit criticism, but no world-shattering drama.

That is the perplexing thing of it all. Why did he go back there of all places? That would be like Pundit getting on RPGnet to promote his latest book. Its just begging something to go wrong. Or very wrong.

Quote from: Omega;1077260As for Mentzer and all this. It is weird. Mentzer acts the internet bully and gets demonized. Jackson does it, and gets a pat on the back for his good deeds.

Who is Jackson?

Quote from: Rafael;1077168I get where you're coming from, but I don't think this diminishes the amount of professional negligence that was committed here:

Chris Wiese, former vice prez of GAMA.
Kevin Wilson - not the one of "Spycraft" fame, but a prolific blogger who runs a "leadership consulting business", among other things.
Mike Myler, EnWorld contributor, podcaster, blogger, and project manager for a number of bigger and smaller indie publishing projects.

And all three of those, with their stellar backgrounds, are going to tell us that they had no idea what they were getting into? That they had no pulse on the weaknesses, and on the threats to this particular project - back when everyone else could tell that it would be doomed from the start?


Naah.

I have no personal beef with those guys; I don't know them. But this needs to be called out: Frank suggests that he payed them. I want to see what he was billed for.

Myler, at least, publicly commented about his involvement in the Kickstarter (this was back when it was tanking). Go here: https://mikemyler.com/many-hats/ and scroll down to "Crowdfunding."

He says

Quote from: Mike MylerAll of my campaign settings are the result of crowdfunded projects and I'm 6/7 (thank you awesome backers!!!) There was one hiccup that people are probably going to be curious about–I am (despite requests from before launch and afterwards) credited as "Crowdfunding Engineer" for the Empyrea Kickstarter. This is not accurate. It would be unseemly for me to speak on it at length but I will share this small snippet of my contract (https://mikemylerdotcom1.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/loxley-contract-capture.jpg) because its intent was clear: I knew that decisions beyond my power to control or influence had fatally flawed the project, with such a high level of confidence that I demanded an amendment to my contract specifically detailing the primary element I knew was the biggest problem. I sent my resignation letter the morning of October 17th and wish them the very best of luck.

Quote from: Rafael;1077152Frank was in the process of founding his "Eldritch Enterprises" (I think that was the name) back then, a small company that was supposed to publish his and other TSR-era writers' work on an "indie" basis. If you've never heard of that company, then it's because the project, essentially, was a failure: The company released some 15-something PDF modules, yes - but none of them were particularly noteworthy to larger audiences. Also, the lack of marketing and the company's limited financial capability to provide state-of-the-art illustrations, maps, and layout design contributed to it basically going in and out of the industry without anyone taking notice. That's the worst way for an entrepreneurial endeavor to go down - not as a failure, but as a footnote.

I actually think a large part of what doomed Eldritch Enterprise to obscurity was actually Jim Ward's (who was the other main member) ultimate failure with his previous company, Fast Forward Entertainment. Basically they churned out a lot of shoddy d20 products with even lower production values than Eldritch Ent. stuff, but he got clobbered by WOTC because he had no idea how to use the OGL and used stuff from from the 3e books, not the SRD. They had to pulp a lot of their books and thus went out of business.

Because of this, none of the Eldritch Ent. products used a OGL based system, just a generic system that was confusing.  So basically, they had no market for their products. OSR fans didn't like it because it wasn't OSR. 5e or Pathfinder fans didn't like it because it wasn't 5e or Pathfinder.

Wasnt DragonElves the TCG from him as well? That one never even got to print I believe. Though I still have the rulebook flyer they were giving out at Gencon in the late 90s.

Addendum: Yep, found my old data entry on it.

QuoteDragonElves was a short lived foray into developing an E-card game by Fast Forward Enterprises in 2000. This was an unusual design in that players could design and customize their cards and then print out the decks themselves.

 Timothy B. Brown, Lester Smith, James M. Ward. 2000.

Assiming its the same Ward and the same Fast Forward.

Quote from: S'mon;1077180What Mentzer did was more than sufficient to warrant a forum ban.

We're not talking about being banned from the arse end of the Internet. I doubt even Frank cares about that. We're talking about being portrayed as public enemy number one in role playing games. And for what is a very weak sauce and totally impotent threat, if you can even call it that. This guy is like 70 years old, retired, on benefits, and medication and needs a mobility scooter to get about. He's no threat to anyone.

Just so we know what we're talking about here, here's an example of Frank in action. Trigger warning: the following footage may contain "toxic aggression detrimental to the safe space we as a gaming community strive for."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APPxO-SJVK8

Obviously this was years ago. He must've gotten a lot more dangerous since then. Right?

Quote from: mightybrain;1077350Were not talking about being banned from the arse end of the Internet. I doubt even Frank cares about that. We're talking about being portrayed as public enemy number one in role playing games.

I agree it's completely inappropriate the way Mentzer has been treated, by the SJW inquisition and by GaryCon. I felt strongly enough about it to complain to Luke Gygax on Facebook under my real name.

QuoteSo who knows what the thought process went into the KS. But from experience I'd guess that they really just did not think it through all the way.

Bingo. And here is where I call BS: A retired baker and, at the end of the day, a hobby gamer, hires a team of respected industry professionals. And they help him deliver THIS.

Quote from: Omega;1077267That is the perplexing thing of it all. Why did he go back there of all places? That would be like Pundit getting on RPGnet to promote his latest book. Its just begging something to go wrong. Or very wrong.

Yeah, but that's also the reason why you talk this kind of stuff through beforehand. I don't want to sell Frank as stupider than he is; but if we postulate that my earlier assessment of him is true - that you immediately notice how he is a fish out of the water when it comes to modern publishing - then it's his partners' or employees' professional duty of care to point that out.

This is connected to something else you mentioned:

Quote from: Omega;1077263Production costs say 15k?

For a PDF-/POD-release, that should be a reasonable sum. - If you, the writer, don't want to get paid for your own hours, that is. In Frank's case, I know for sure that at least part of "Empyrea" already existed in writing in '11: I know so because he showed me, and because he even gave two or three pages of the manuscript - which he also used to run an adventure - to me as a memento. Maybe it's not "print-worthy", as it is, but with a year of solid editing and other preparations, he could have released this one without any difficulty, and within a reasonable budget.

- Again, possessing that sort of information, and yet to encourage him to do the KS the way he did -  if that isn't a severe case of professional negligence by his team, I don't know what might qualify as such.

Like, maybe it was really the case that Frank was warned, and that he decided to do everything the other way, even so. - But looking at how many different topics were done badly, that seems unlikely: Even if Frank's online behavior was something his team couldn't directly moderate, the execution of the crowdfunding campaign was something these people were supposed to actively influence.

Sure, one might now argue that it wasn't their specific responsibility to tell Frank to chill out and to curb his enthusiasm, that he was the "project owner", and all: But that not how you're supposed to work as part of a team, and not how you are supposed to manage this project, specifically. Again, the retired baker recruits you to help him realize his dream project: Don't you ever get to the point where you sit him down for even the most basic SWOT briefing?!

It might even be true that these guys weren't "specifically" negligent. Just "generally" so.

Quote from: Rafael;1077355Sure, one might now argue that it wasn't their specific responsibility to tell Frank to chill out and to curb his enthusiasm, that he was the "project owner", and all: But that not how you're supposed to work as part of a team

The thing is, I'm not sure there ever actually was a team, as opposed to a bunch of names on a page. I haven't really seen any sign of anyone but Mentzer ever actually doing anything on Empyrea. It may not have been much more than him emailing people and asking to use their name.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1077276Myler, at least, publicly commented about his involvement in the Kickstarter (this was back when it was tanking). Go here: https://mikemyler.com/many-hats/ and scroll down to "Crowdfunding."

Thank you for this link! - That's pretty interesting. Now, I don't want to hang Mr Myler on poor wording, but - so he had a contract, yes? A contract that evidently involved topics related to the job described by Frank on the KS page? - Well, it would be nice to hear what he actually thinks his job is supposed to have been about, then. (- Sorry for the irony; it's not directed at you, for sure.)

Quote from: JeremyR;1077327I actually think a large part of what doomed Eldritch Enterprise to obscurity was actually Jim Ward's (who was the other main member) ultimate failure with his previous company, Fast Forward Entertainment.

Interesting as well. Thank you. - Without the relative thatricality that accompanies my other posts here, I really have to wonder who advises those guys: Particularly many members of the oldschool "D&D family" seem to have suffered from really amateurish approaches to the business. What happened there, and how could one try to fight it?

I mean, obviously, we're talking about the same niche of the industry where Castle Zagyg, Dwimmermount, Gygax Mag, CSIO, and the Hobby Shop Dungeon happened: It's not like many of the "heads" of the scene appear to to be particularly competent: I don't say this to provoke; I say this because it contextualizes how the industry generally deals with failure.  

Quote from: mightybrain;1077350We're talking about being portrayed as public enemy number one in role playing games. And for what is a very weak sauce and totally impotent threat, if you can even call it that. This guy is like 70 years old, retired, on benefits, and medication and needs a mobility scooter to get about. He's no threat to anyone.

Yeah, but this wasn't the Dragonsfoot community. This was done by other members of the RPG scene, I think mostly on RPGNet.

Quote from: S'mon;1077351I felt strongly enough about it to complain to Luke Gygax on Facebook under my real name.

That's cool. I wanted to do the same thing, but then decided to write my rant here, instead, if only because it likely will have a bigger audience. We need to change this!

Quote from: S'mon;1077357The thing is, I'm not sure there ever actually was a team, as opposed to a bunch of names on a page. I haven't really seen any sign of anyone but Mentzer ever actually doing anything on Empyrea. It may not have been much more than him emailing people and asking to use their name.

Absolutely, that's a possibility: Especially with many of the writers named, I suspect that was the case. - Then again, this can be proven beyond a doubt. Frank claims to have paid people. For what, why, what specific sums?  - Especially the three names I've named: That's not the design team, that's the product management section. Those guys were either clearly in, or they were out. Especially if they had already signed contracts, as Myler disclosed.

I'm going to repeat this once more for the sake of sanity and reason...

Frank Mentzer is senile and probably an asshole, but I doubt he's a predatory threat on the level of Zak S.

If GaryCon wants to ban him to avoid any further backlash from the Neo-Bolsheviks and other punk rock leftists, they have that right. I think it's a little excessive (it'd be more reasonable to just not have him be a guest speaker and maybe have a nurse or someone skilled with geriatric care to chaperone him) but it's not entirely ridiculous like what GenCon did to Hambly on behalf of Commissar Anita.

Of course, Frank Mentzer may be abrasive and probably suffering from the Alzheimer's, so not the best choice for GaryCon guest books.

But if I were GaryCon staff, I would've simultaneously preemptively banned Stacey D and her crew in the exact same motion that banned Mentzer. Just to show that they don't play favorites and they don't fuck around.

I think that discounts the purported claim that there are other reasons that Gygax isn't sharing, and I don't think he should.  If he knew a reason that Mentzer should not be included, and he publicly broadcasts it, he can further damage his friend's reputation and career.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1077554I think that discounts the purported claim that there are other reasons that Gygax isn't sharing, and I don't think he should.  If he knew a reason that Mentzer should not be included, and he publicly broadcasts it, he can further damage his friend's reputation and career.

I disagree. Again, I'm usually not at all about "whataboutism" - except that in this case, context is needed: Bill Webb notoriously assaulted a woman at PaizoCon 2017. He wasn't disinvited, or disavowed, or whatever - he was allowed to withdraw on his own conditions.

Why wasn't Frank allowed to do the same? The allegations of misconduct against him seem laughable compared to what Webb allegedly did. And if the blunder with "Empyrea" is still at the core of the decision to ban him from GaryCon - well, not to be a dick, but if I was Luke, I would perhaps be a bit chill about that. - Being that he is primarily associated with the "Gygax Mag" disaster, and, by proxy, with "Castle Zagyg", and with "The Marmoreal Tomb".

This is a terrible PR move, because it makes things look as if Luke was operating a double standard: Bill is still in the biz, so he gets a free pass. Frank will never work in the industry again, so he gets used as a pawn sacrifice to distract the SWJ crowd. To ban him in '19, after inviting him in '18, and to give no specifics other than vaguely referring to the allegations made against Frank in '17 is literally the stupidest thing Luke could do. - Just let the old warrior quietly ride into the sunrise. You can make up a reason why he won't be able to attend from now on. The only reason this is now a big deal is because the way it was done, labeling Frank as a "harbinger", is, simply, not smart.


- I cannot but wonder what PR agent fees are in Michigan. After the proverbial "gygaxing" ("to gygaxe" = "getting rid of your creative team in a product's post-production stage") we now probably have "the mentzering" ("to mentzer so." = "to fire so. for an offense that you consider immaterial in others"). :(

That could have been done smoother, and that could have been done better.

Quote from: Rafael;1077672I disagree. Again, I'm usually not at all about "whataboutism" - except that in this case, context is needed: Bill Webb notoriously assaulted a woman at PaizoCon 2017.

Is that a reference to the security staffer he supposedly injured? He's not accused of 'assaulting' the target of his affections AFAICR.

Quote from: Rafael;1077672I disagree. Again, I'm usually not at all about "whataboutism" - except that in this case, context is needed: Bill Webb notoriously assaulted a woman at PaizoCon 2017. He wasn't disinvited, or disavowed, or whatever - he was allowed to withdraw on his own conditions.

Why wasn't Frank allowed to do the same? The allegations of misconduct against him seem laughable compared to what Webb allegedly did. And if the blunder with "Empyrea" is still at the core of the decision to ban him from GaryCon - well, not to be a dick, but if I was Luke, I would perhaps be a bit chill about that. - Being that he is primarily associated with the "Gygax Mag" disaster, and, by proxy, with "Castle Zagyg", and with "The Marmoreal Tomb".

This is a terrible PR move, because it makes things look as if Luke was operating a double standard: Bill is still in the biz, so he gets a free pass. Frank will never work in the industry again, so he gets used as a pawn sacrifice to distract the SWJ crowd. To ban him in '19, after inviting him in '18, and to give no specifics other than vaguely referring to the allegations made against Frank in '17 is literally the stupidest thing Luke could do. - Just let the old warrior quietly ride into the sunrise. You can make up a reason why he won't be able to attend from now on. The only reason this is now a big deal is because the way it was done, labeling Frank as a "harbinger", is, simply, not smart.


- I cannot but wonder what PR agent fees are in Michigan. After the proverbial "gygaxing" ("to gygaxe" = "getting rid of your creative team in a product's post-production stage") we now probably have "the mentzering" ("to mentzer so." = "to fire so. for an offense that you consider immaterial in others"). :(

That could have been done smoother, and that could have been done better.

You missing the key element where Luke made it clear that there was more to his decision than has been made public.

Quote from: Motorskills;1077692You missing the key element where Luke made it clear that there was more to his decision than has been made public.

He did not make it clear. I read what he said and he did not say that.

I think this was addressed:

Quote from: Motorskills;1076029The guys at North Texas RPG Con have been in touch with Luke, it seems that there is more to it than just the incident(s) with Price, bolding mine.

Quote from: Originally Posted by Michael Badolato...
I did talk with Luke yesterday and whether I agree fully with him or not, the issue with Frank was a result of many actions, some we are not privy to, not the Price issue in particular. We haven't had the same issues with Frank so I cannot speak for Luke or anyone else about the decisions they made.

Quote from: S'mon;1077677Is that a reference to the security staffer he supposedly injured? He's not accused of 'assaulting' the target of his affections AFAICR.

The security staffer was a different person (GAMA president at GenCon apparently injured a security guard when he got huffy and tried to push past the human roadblock keeping him from using a particular entrance).

The claims of Bill Webb injuriously assaulting someone are whole-cloth invented by fucktard Robert Brookes, who claims he witnessed it, and later got amplified by non-witnesses such as Price - nevermind that there's absolutely no corroboration of it, just his statement.

Quote from: S'mon;1077677Is that a reference to the security staffer he supposedly injured? He's not accused of 'assaulting' the target of his affections AFAICR.

Sorry, maybe that's a language problem on my side. So "assaulting" implies injury? - The version that I remember from '17 - before #MeToo came in - was that Webb allegedly attacked one woman, then also attacked a second one that wanted to defend the first, and, making a third really bad judgment call, also tried to punch things out with the people that jumped in to separate them. The records of how the fight ended were differing, but there was a consensus that there had been a fight.

Quote from: Motorskills;1077692You missing the key element where Luke made it clear that there was more to his decision than has been made public.

What S'mon said. Luke didn't write that.

I have been pointed to Luke and Benoist Poire going on social media and trying to make excuses after the noticeable backlash, and them justifying Luke's statement by citing events behind the scenes as "the real reason" for their behavior towards Frank. - Which, again, begs the question: Why release a public statement in the first place, if you're not willing to discuss the topic?! Luke put the topic on the map for us when he just as easily could have handled this in private. - According to Frank, Luke even called him before posting the announcement. Why not just call Frank, leave things there, and spare yourselves any further public scrutiny?

- Let me take a step back, here, and say that this doesn't even need to make sense to me. But shouldn't it at least make sense to Luke? What about this announcement has made his own position better in any way?

Quote from: Rafael;1077708Sorry, maybe that's a language problem on my side. So "assaulting" implies injury? - The version that I remember from '17 - before #MeToo came in - was that Webb allegedly attacked one woman, then also attacked a second one that wanted to defend the first, and, making a third really bad judgment call, also tried to punch things out with the people that jumped in to separate them. The records of how the fight ended were differing, but there was a consensus that there had been a fight.?

That didn't happen.  The only "consensus" was between idiots like Brookes, Price and Frasier (the latter two who weren't even present for the incident (they were at the venue, yes), and hijacked it to push their own narrative.

Quote from: kythri;1077714That didn't happen.  The only "consensus" was between idiots like Brookes, Price and Frasier (the latter two who weren't even present for the incident (they were at the venue, yes), and hijacked it to push their own narrative.

Sorry, I didn't read your earlier answers had already kind of rendered my own last post partly obsolete.

So, what did happen, then? Is there an "official" version, through, whatever, the filling of a police report, or through formal statements from all afflicted parties?

Quote from: Rafael;1077719So, what did happen, then? Is there an "official" version, through, whatever, the filling of a police report, or through formal statements from all afflicted parties?

There really isn't.  The most official statement, I link below.  No police report was file, as Hensley didn't want the police called.

Lisa Stevens (Paizo CEO) made a statement that didn't provide much, if any, details:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uoph?Open-Letter-From-Paizo-CEO-Lisa-Stevens

BJ Hensley made a statement as well (in that same thread), but one that contradicted earlier private communications she had with FGG staff that got leaked.

Neither of those statements says anything about any kind of physical assault.  In fact, Hensley's own words are:

Quote from: HensleyThe offensive behavior I dealt with from this person was very inappropriate, unwanted, and frankly a bit scary.

One would think that if one had been assaulted, such a statement would have been a little less limp than "offensive behavior".

Quote from: kythri;1077722There really isn't.  The most official statement, I link below.  No police report was file, as Hensley didn't want the police called.

Lisa Stevens (Paizo CEO) made a statement that didn't provide much, if any, details:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uoph?Open-Letter-From-Paizo-CEO-Lisa-Stevens

BJ Hensley made a statement as well (in that same thread), but one that contradicted earlier private communications she had with FGG staff that got leaked.

Neither of those statements says anything about any kind of physical assault.

There is also an official ENWorld that cites both the Paizo statement and a statement from Frog God Games, and reached out to Webb for comment - and he directed them to the Frog God Games post.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4613-Harassment-At-PaizoCon-2017

There it says:

QuoteAllegations of improper behavior at the 2017 PaizoCon by Frog God Games CEO Bill Webb were brought to life by Pathfinder content creator Robert Brookes. Brookes was attending PaizoCon and has written for Paizo and Legendary Games, among others. In an incident involving alcohol, Webb allegedly sexually harassed another guest at the convention and when a staffer attempted to intervene and injury occurred with the staffer.

So there is an alleged injury to a staffer (not Hensley) - but the extent of it and how it happened is left very unclear. I don't think it's a major part of the case, but I mention it because that might be how Rafael got that impression.

If Brookes' claims were true (i.e. a Paizo staffer was injured), it most certainly would have been called out by Stevens in her statement.

Brookes is full of shit.

Quote from: Rafael;1077672Frank will never work in the industry again, so he gets used as a pawn sacrifice to distract the SWJ crowd. To ban him in '19, after inviting him in '18, and to give no specifics other than vaguely referring to the allegations made against Frank in '17 is literally the stupidest thing Luke could do.

To clarify, Frank wasn't banned, he was uninvited as guest of honour. Luke says he was still welcome to attend; which makes a mockery of his own words about "toxic aggression" by the way.

The whole thing stinks. I've never attended a Gary Con or met Luke. Now I have no interest in either.

Quote from: jhkim;1077064Yeah, his story about "I was hacked" changed to "I had a house guest that I refuse to dox" in the comments, when confronted by Paul Stuart Tucker. I find it amazing that anyone actually buys that explanation.

Wait, are we talking about Frank or Zak?

Quote from: Rafael;1077708Why release a public statement in the first place, if you're not willing to discuss the topic?!

That's a really good question, considering most organizations are smart enough to do these things privately. I wonder what they hoped to achieve or why they felt it was necessary.

Quote from: kythri;1077714The only "consensus" was between idiots like Brookes, Price and Frasier (the latter two who weren't even present for the incident (they were at the venue, yes), and hijacked it to push their own narrative.

Actually it's increasingly likely that Price and Frasier were in fact the two women Hensley called 'traumatizing'.

Quote from: jhkimYeah, his story about "I was hacked" changed to "I had a house guest that I refuse to dox" in the comments, when confronted by Paul Stuart Tucker. I find it amazing that anyone actually buys that explanation.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1077753Wait, are we talking about Frank or Zak?

That was about Frank Mentzer. He posted a defense on his Facebook page, but was then confronted about it by Paul Tucker and amended his story.

Quote from: mightybrain;1077041Frank responds:
https://www.facebook.com/frank.mentzer/posts/2166010183478721

I think the initial FB message was edited now to remove a reference to being hacked. Sadly, I did not screenshot the original message.

Quote from: jhkim;1077757Sadly, I did not screenshot the original message.

The message was captured on Tenkar's Tavern, apparently 2 hrs after posting:
https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2019/02/frank-mentzer-shares-on-facebook-truth.html

And it says the same, "unauthorized use of my desktop computer."

Quote from: mightybrain;1077762The message was captured on Tenkar's Tavern, apparently 2 hrs after posting:
https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2019/02/frank-mentzer-shares-on-facebook-truth.html

And it says the same, "unauthorized use of my desktop computer."

Fair enough. I may have misremembered about the phrasing (or he edited it within the first two hours). Regardless of that, though - having an unnamed house guest write messages in your name to frame you - still seems like a stretch to me. Others in the Tenkar's Tavern felt similarly, like this comment:

QuoteTheShadowKnowsFebruary 28, 2019 at 8:17 PM

As I pointed out when this first came up a little over a year ago, Mentzer is demonstrably lying about the PM he sent EotB.

In the obnoxious "Prince" post on DF, which he concedes making, Mentzer refers to EotB as "Bote". A search of Dragonsfoot doesn't reveal any other instance where he does so. The PM also refers to EotB as "Bote", which would make sense if the "hacker" were trying to frame Mentzer - except that, according to the time stamps, the PM was sent BEFORE the public post.

Since Mentzer also claimed (on a Tenkar's Tavern thread) that he hadn't seen the PM until EotB posted it publicly, and since it belies credulity that he and the "hacker" would just happen to use the exact same odd term coincidentally at almost the same time, I don't see any other possibility except: Mentzer wrote both. And then lied about it for over a year.

While I think it is Improbable (not Impossible, but highly unlikely) Frank Mentzer got hacked, and his apparent actions likely deserved his banishment, his FB message does have one point people are ignoring.

Frank was already banned from DF, and that could have ended it.  However, this happened.

QuoteThe recipient joined Dragonsfoot moderators...to make their accusations public at another website (Knights & Knaves Alehouse, now a locked NSFW thread). Their tales have been widely circulated...

Regardless of the truth of this, does anybody find the fact that this was done a poor reflection on the mods for both sites.  The issue was already dealt with, but EOTB decided to "out" what was handled privately.  I think this was an escalation that didn't need to happen, and I was disappointed that the mods on both sites did nothing...they could have immediately taken down the post and disciplined the poster.  If I was a mod and that happened, I probably would have banned EOTB from Dragonsfoot for escalating the situation elsewhere.  The big issue to me was the same mods on DF were also on KKA, and that leads to concerns about favoritism.  Do I think that there was a planned conspiracy--no.  Do I think there was some favoritism towards a prolific poster?  Yes.  It's good that they didn't show favoritism towards a high profile named creator, but I feel they could have similarly not shown favoritism towards a prolific poster on the forums.  (I think it's a conflict of interest to have forum moderators do the same role on multiple forums).

But in any event, I truly doubt the Empyrea/DF issue had anything to do with the GaryCon announcement.  Message board drama like that doesn't really affect things--I suspect its the other issues.  (The only thing that outted post does is show a form of harrasment that makes it an easier target for the other critics).

Quote from: mightybrain;1077746To clarify, Frank wasn't banned, he was uninvited as guest of honour. Luke says he was still welcome to attend; which makes a mockery of his own words about "toxic aggression" by the way.

One thing to keep in mind regarding Luke Gygax and GaryCon.  Luke is definitely aiming the con at the more mainstream gaming audience.  GaryCon was never solely for the grognards.  If you look at the activity, GaryCon has been courting bigger players like Paizo and WoTC guests.  He's also working on Hollywood connections, such as mentions on The Big Bang Theory, auctions in Hollywood, film projects, etc.  Luke Gygax is really good at PR.  It keeps getting bigger each year and I suspect he sees it in the same way as GenCon was--a convention that just keeps growing each year.  

As such, he is probably concerned about the current climate and probably has to keep abreast of this considering other larger conventions have taken this seriously.  Even if Frank is innocent of the issues Price accused him of, I think this is probably a defensive move to prevent protests and negative PR.  He's not banning Frank, just making sure he's not a "special status" person which a lot of the more aggressive liberal factions can and will target as "normalizing harassment".  While that may be unfortunate, I think he's trying to look at the bigger picture here--or at least what is best for the convention itself.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1077753Actually it's increasingly likely that Price and Frasier were in fact the two women Hensley called 'traumatizing'.

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that Price and Frasier are the "girl gaggle" referenced in the since-retracted conversation Hensley had with FGG staff.  It's disappointing that Hensley caved to their pressure.

Quote from: JRT;1077775As such, he is probably concerned about the current climate and probably has to keep abreast of this considering other larger conventions have taken this seriously.  Even if Frank is innocent of the issues Price accused him of, I think this is probably a defensive move to prevent protests and negative PR.

Well, here's some great PR from a past GaryCon:

http://archive.is/BYyNG

If we're going to kowtow to the shitheel leftists protesting Mentzer's behavior, then why don't we just go all-in?

It will be hilariously ironic when Luke gets "disinvited" from GaryCon next for "toxic behavior" as all the poor frightened women come out of the woodwork to tell their tales of woe at his savage hands.

Quote from: JRT;1077775Regardless of the truth of this, does anybody find the fact that this was done a poor reflection on the mods for both sites.  The issue was already dealt with, but EOTB decided to "out" what was handled privately.  I think this was an escalation that didn't need to happen, and I was disappointed that the mods on both sites did nothing...they could have immediately taken down the post and disciplined the poster.  If I was a mod and that happened, I probably would have banned EOTB from Dragonsfoot for escalating the situation elsewhere.  The big issue to me was the same mods on DF were also on KKA, and that leads to concerns about favoritism.  Do I think that there was a planned conspiracy--no.  Do I think there was some favoritism towards a prolific poster?  Yes.  It's good that they didn't show favoritism towards a high profile named creator, but I feel they could have similarly not shown favoritism towards a prolific poster on the forums.  (I think it's a conflict of interest to have forum moderators do the same role on multiple forums).

I've largely stayed out of Frank's dredging this issue up again; I still do so plan; I will address this point very briefly with some facts for everyone to contrast with the above, which to make clear I find perversely wrong.

But first, I consider you a particularly slimy person.  Sycophancy isn't sufficient in my opinion to describe your most salient feature.  I don't say this to ad hominem you. I say this so the reader will be certain to extract any ounce of bias in the following:

1. I didn't "out the PM" when sent to me originally

2. No one "outed the PM" when DF acknowledged the reality that something must be wrong to remove someone, but was otherwise very, very courteous to Frank in their explanation, and in fact led suspicion away from something like a PM driving events.

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1874820#p1874820

3. In the face of that courtesy, and yawning silence from everyone else involved, Frank decided to imply that the philosophical differences leading to his departure were commercial; that DF's focus was somehow involved in casting him out over selling something other than RPG fundamentalism.  

https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2017/09/frank-mentzer-follows-up-with.html

Instead of wishing "everyone seek each other out where they are at and best of luck" (paraphrased), that instead DF should be scorned.

Quote"I say again, ignore (or scorn) those who are intolerant and trolling us with their sacramental sentiments about "One True Game" and Why Your Game Sucks. (You have opinions, great. So stop dissing others when they express theirs. Learn tact.)

Go ahead, rag on me or words or websites. We all need to vent.

Quote from comments

4. To the reader - would you do the above to someone that had handled the event as DF did?

5. Yes, I released the PM after this.  If Frank wanted to talk what happened, let him talk about what happened.  

6. Note: he can't stop talking about it.  I've never mentioned it since.  I didn't mention it now.

7.  Please also note:  I'm fine with anyone reading this believing Frank didn't send that PM.  I'm not asking you to revise your opinion if Frank makes you happy.  The entire dredging is bizarre from a normal perspective.

It allways appalls me just how often designers and publishers self sabotage themselves and steal defeat from the jaws of victory.

Quote from: jhkim;1077728So there is an alleged injury to a staffer (not Hensley) - but the extent of it and how it happened is left very unclear. I don't think it's a major part of the case, but I mention it because that might be how Rafael got that impression.

Not meant as a copout, but just FTR, I really don't remember: There was a lot of buzz back when the news hit the web, but I didn't follow it all too closely, back then, as I don't follow Bill Webb/FGG outside of this, either. I've talked about the incident with others IRL on numerous occasions, though, so there might have been a good dose of orally traded sensationalism to it, as well. - You know, you get told a tale of a person you don't know punching somebody else you don't know, you tend to accept it - which I reckon is not cool.

Quote from: kythri;1077740Brookes is full of shit.

Let's not even go there. Accusations live and die by proof. If Brookes, Price etc. really maliciously exaggerated their version of events

Quote from: JRT;1077775While I think it is Improbable (not Impossible, but highly unlikely) Frank Mentzer got hacked, and his apparent actions likely deserved his banishment, his FB message does have one point people are ignoring.

Let's be clear about this: Frank saying that he didn't write this has about the same validity to it as it would have if I said that an insidious co-worker installed that suspicious "DragonQuest" app on my company phone. That he keeps insisting on this, and modifying the narrative as the context is evolving, is stupid beyond comprehension.

QuoteI think it's a conflict of interest to have forum moderators do the same role on multiple forums.

I am not a mod at DF, but I'm one of the guys who are running the Comeback Inn, and one of the guys who are running OD&D'74. - While this is a little bit OT, I'd like to say that this, under most circumstances, is actually an asset, and not a problem: Most of us who are now involved as mods and admins kind of "grew up together" in  oldschool online community. This is important because in the case there is some serious beef going on, you know whom to talk to. - Obviously, networking of this kind can have its negative sides, as well, but mostly, it has created an atmosphere of trust, and an atmosphere where controversial issues can be talked about with a high degree of personal confidence: In EOTB's case, for example, the fact that most of the people who run the different oldschool communities know him as a quality poster has certainly taken the edge off the accusations that Frank made against him.

QuoteOne thing to keep in mind regarding Luke Gygax and GaryCon.  ...While that may be unfortunate, I think he's trying to look at the bigger picture here--or at least what is best for the convention itself.

Yeah, but then, this recent statement is a mistake: If it's looking that he's pilling on Frank because Mentzer is a convenient pawn sacrifice here, people are not going to take him seriously. - I don't have any beef with Luke, otherwise, so it isn't meant as a sting when I say that the future of GaryCon not going to be determined by how he manages social issues: It is going to be determined by whether he and his associates finally deliver on the number of overdue projects that they've been helming. If "The Hobby Shop Dungeon" becomes another "Castle Zagyg", the Gygax brothers are over. This is why it's so baffling to me that they don't manage this situation in a way that doesn't invite other distractions for them. - Again, one week of internet drama, or one discrete phone call to Frank - one of these leaves you more time to handle more essential things.

Quote from: Rafael;1077827Yeah, but then, this recent statement is a mistake: If it's looking that he's pilling on Frank because Mentzer is a convenient pawn sacrifice here, people are not going to take him seriously. - I don't have any beef with Luke, otherwise, so it isn't meant as a sting when I say that the future of GaryCon not going to be determined by how he manages social issues: It is going to be determined by whether he and his associates finally deliver on the number of overdue projects that they've been helming. If "The Hobby Shop Dungeon" becomes another "Castle Zagyg", the Gygax brothers are over. This is why it's so baffling to me that they don't manage this situation in a way that doesn't invite other distractions for them. - Again, one week of internet drama, or one discrete phone call to Frank - one of these leaves you more time to handle more essential things.

You are making one incorrect assumption--that Luke and Ernie are currently in business together.

Luke owns and runs GaryCon.  I don't know how much the other Gygax's are involved in that outside of being guests, but Luke is in the business of running the con and no other Gygax is listed as a staff member.  That's his major creative effort.  To my knowledge he's not producing any gaming product.  The Convention is very successful and is unlikely to be affected by any publishing endeavors.  That's why he's probably more concerned about the publicity of his guests, etc.

Ernie and his partner Benoist are the ones doing the Hobby Shop Dungeon.  That is becoming a fiasco and backers are getting upset, but Luke Gygax has nothing to do with that project at all.  If that one fails, it will be a black mark on Ernie Gygax and people are not going to trust him if it fails, but it's not going to affect GaryCon's reputation.

Quote from: EOTB;1077809the reader - would you do the above to someone that had handled the event as DF did?

5. Yes, I released the PM after this.  If Frank wanted to talk what happened, let him talk about what happened.  

6. Note: he can't stop talking about it.  I've never mentioned it since.  I didn't mention it now.

7.  Please also note:  I'm fine with anyone reading this believing Frank didn't send that PM.  I'm not asking you to revise your opinion if Frank makes you happy.  The entire dredging is bizarre from a normal perspective.

This. I didn't know that you posted on this site, actually. - But, yeah, this is it: This PM happened in a general context of inappropriate conversations between a content seller and the interested community. Regardless of the PM, in particular, Frank had no business getting into these sort of conversations with you, or with others. Simply, he didn't.

I think it was actually a good thing that this blew over the way it did, because it changed the discourse: Frank wasn't the first content creator, by far,, who tried to bully fans to defend questionable business strategies. It was a good move that the community resisted that. - How the situation developed from there, especially with this forced and poorly believable allegation of sexual harassment, is another matter. The best thing Frank could do now is to shut the fuck up, though. That he doesn't do that, bad. He can still bounce back from this, if he doesn't make the PM issue his hill to die on.

Quote from: JRT;1077829You are making one incorrect assumption--that Luke and Ernie are currently in business together.

Sorry, I have these windows open in my browser while I am doing other stuff; I am not intentionally overlooking posts, or trying to be all over the thread. - Let me rephrase, perhaps: The Gygax name as a brand has been suffering tremendously; the last thing Luke needs now is a PR disaster of these proportions. I am aware that he is not directly involved with the "The Marmoreal Tomb".
 Is a clean distinction possible, though, if he's involved with the promotion of the product?

Like, understand me well - I am happy that GaryCon is aeound, and I am happy about the work they're doing. I'm just, frankly, puzzled at the amount of drama that is created without any need. Again, there is a version of this story where Luke calls Frank, and asks, "you got to sit this one out". And Frank simply says, "alright".

How popular of a guest is Frank Mentzer?

AKA, have any of you attended GaryCon or other con where Frank was present? Was he popular with attendees? Was he popular with other special guests? AKA, did he run big events or well attended panels?

I ask because I'm trying to look at this idiotic shitfest from an "Old School Con" marketing perspective. If GaryCon wants to be focused on "Gary's games and Gary's old crew", then I wonder how much Frank has value as "Gary's Old Crew" for drawing attendees.

Of course, it sounds like GaryCon was an Old School Con when it began, but has since transitioned into a General Gaming Con so perhaps "Gary's Old Crew" aren't a necessary (or even desired) element.

Maybe SJW human garbage are a key demographic of GaryCon attendees and Luke is just taking care of his actual customers? AKA, maybe Luke is just following the money and protecting his dollars.  

I don't know the GaryCon demographic as I've never attended, but answers to most questions in life can be solved by following the money.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1077902How popular of a guest is Frank Mentzer?

AKA, have any of you attended GaryCon or other con where Frank was present? Was he popular with attendees? Was he popular with other special guests? AKA, did he run big events or well attended panels?

I ask because I'm trying to look at this idiotic shitfest from an "Old School Con" marketing perspective. If GaryCon wants to be focused on "Gary's games and Gary's old crew", then I wonder how much Frank has value as "Gary's Old Crew" for drawing attendees.

Of course, it sounds like GaryCon was an Old School Con when it began, but has since transitioned into a General Gaming Con so perhaps "Gary's Old Crew" aren't a necessary (or even desired) element.

Maybe SJW human garbage are a key demographic of GaryCon attendees and Luke is just taking care of his actual customers? AKA, maybe Luke is just following the money and protecting his dollars.  

I don't know the GaryCon demographic as I've never attended, but answers to most questions in life can be solved by following the money.

I went to NTRPGCon what, six times maybe..? when he was a guest. I'd say quite a few people went specifically to play in his games or hang out with him. No extensive comment on Garycon as I've been once (last year), but I'm of the opinion he was fairly popular there, too.

I didn't see many, if any SJWs past year, but who the fuck knows...I ran a Mutant Crawl Classics game and played some D&D and never got the impression anyone was of that ilk.

Brad, what was your impression of NTRPGCon vs. GaryCon?

Quote from: JRT;1077829Ernie and his partner Benoist are the ones doing the Hobby Shop Dungeon.  That is becoming a fiasco and backers are getting upset, but Luke Gygax has nothing to do with that project at all.  If that one fails, it will be a black mark on Ernie Gygax and people are not going to trust him if it fails, but it's not going to affect GaryCon's reputation.

This is The RPGPundit's total lack of surprise.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1077902How popular of a guest is Frank Mentzer?

AKA, have any of you attended GaryCon or other con where Frank was present? Was he popular with attendees? Was he popular with other special guests? AKA, did he run big events or well attended panels?

I ask because I'm trying to look at this idiotic shitfest from an "Old School Con" marketing perspective. If GaryCon wants to be focused on "Gary's games and Gary's old crew", then I wonder how much Frank has value as "Gary's Old Crew" for drawing attendees.

Of course, it sounds like GaryCon was an Old School Con when it began, but has since transitioned into a General Gaming Con so perhaps "Gary's Old Crew" aren't a necessary (or even desired) element.

Maybe SJW human garbage are a key demographic of GaryCon attendees and Luke is just taking care of his actual customers? AKA, maybe Luke is just following the money and protecting his dollars.  

I don't know the GaryCon demographic as I've never attended, but answers to most questions in life can be solved by following the money.

Not quite what you asked, but Frank's marketing value mostly lies in the fact that, outside of the US, he is a megastar compared to other figures from the days of yore: AD&D only saw a very limited release in Europe (and in Asia, IIRC), and the version that people here have been playing if they were born in the 80s is usually Mentzer D&D, either through the boxes, or through the Rules Cyclopedia (like myself). - So, his name value, and the weight of his word is not to be underestimated.

My impression (never having attended) is that Gary Con was initially for friends and family to celebrate the man's life. As it has gotten bigger they want to attract a wider audience. And I think Gary would have wanted everyone to be welcome. The problem comes when that larger audience start applying purity tests to attendees. Tests which, applied fairly and without bias, would reject everyone including the hosts themselves.

I don't know how much influence Frank still has. Obviously not much given these events. But from all accounts that I have heard, he and Deb are the nicest people in the hobby; and they really didn't deserve this.

GaryCon wants to grow beyond old school.  Honor it perhaps, but the model seems to "normal con that reserves space for older games/styles".

NTRPG is only about the old ways, and doesn't care to attract everyone

If I had to budget for only one, it would be Texas.  But GC is still good.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1077945Brad, what was your impression of NTRPGCon vs. GaryCon?

Quote from: EOTB;1078040GaryCon wants to grow beyond old school.  Honor it perhaps, but the model seems to "normal con that reserves space for older games/styles".

NTRPG is only about the old ways, and doesn't care to attract everyone

If I had to budget for only one, it would be Texas.  But GC is still good.

EOTB echos my views; NT is a small con that hasn't expanded on purpose. It's small because it gives greater access to the special guests. My buddy likes Garycon and is a special guest this year (he lives in WI so it's an easy drive for him), but even he said it's just morphing into what is essentially Gencon-light. For a "small con", Garycon sure did feel pretty large.

I'll probably go to Gamehole con once next year maybe to check it out, but if I attend any other cons in the future (debatable at the rate I'm going) it'll basically be NT and that's it.

EDIT: This reminds me to ask him to pick up some gaming crap for me...

Quote from: Brad;1078072It's small because it gives greater access to the special guests.

It's a heck of an Old School/OSR guest list too:

Quote from: NTRPGKelley Allen, Chris Clark, David "Zeb" Cook, Darlene, Jeff Dee, Jeff Easley, Larry Elmore, Alyssa Faden,  Matt Finch, Alex Gygax, Ernie Gygax, Allen Hammack, Alex Kammer, Timothy Kask, Doug Kovacs, David "Diesel" LaForce, Jeff Leason,  Manda "Talzhemir", Steve Marsh, Erol Otus, Steve Perrin, Jon Peterson, Stefan Pokorny, Merle Rasmussen, Dr. Scott Robinson, Elizabeth Stewart, Dr. Dennis Sustare, Jim Wampler, Bill Webb, Steven Winter

I saw someone say on MeWe that there were like nearly three times more D&D 5e Adventurer's League or whatever it's called games than all the old-edition D&D games put together this year.

Is that true?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1078954I saw someone say on MeWe that there were like nearly three times more D&D 5e Adventurer's League or whatever it's called games than all the old-edition D&D games put together this year.

I'm a big 5e fan, and my experience of players coming in via Critical Role has been very positive, but Organised Play is truly a Blight Upon the Land!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1078954I saw someone say on MeWe that there were like nearly three times more D&D 5e Adventurer's League or whatever it's called games than all the old-edition D&D games put together this year.

Is that true?

Adventurer's League. Kinda what the RPGA used to be. Except without the problems the RPGA eventually developed.

As for their being more AL games than older editions being played. Where? At GaryCon? Seems an exaggeration or they were counting non AL 5e sessions in there? All indicators were that GC hosted more non-5e games.

GenCon on the other hand I'd expect there to be alot of AL stuff either company hosted or AL member hosted.

Quote from: S'mon;1078963I'm a big 5e fan, and my experience of players coming in via Critical Role has been very positive, but Organised Play is truly a Blight Upon the Land!

How so?

I just nabbed a copy of the latest packet and had a quick clance over it and seems pretty ok so far. Nothing leaps out as bad in chargen except for one little thing.
Can use the PHB+1 other book for chargen
Array or Point Buy for stats. Array being the one from the PHB. 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
Choose a background. AL adds some sort of renown system to your PCs background. Not sure what that is yet.
Alignment can be any non-evil one unless you are in the Lords Alliance or Zentarim factions. Being in a Faction is optional.
Equip the character.

Levelling is interesting. No EXP. You accumulate points for adventuring. At a guess at milestone points in modules.
Also garner points that can be used to purchase special items.

Overall it reads remarkably similar to how Dragon Storm's Stormrider Guild worked.

The one bit of quirk noted was that  Blessing of Corellon was brought up in the list of the variants race options a PC can take. I do not think this was an "agenda" thing. But it is bemusing to see it listed.

Quote from: Omega;1078967How so?

It pushes out proper D&D!!

Quote from: S'mon;1078971It pushes out proper D&D!!

Again. How so? From all I have seen so far its running much like the RPGA used to when they had the "Living" series of organized play going. Ravens Bluff, Living Jungle, Living Seattle and so on?

Quote from: Omega;1078972Again. How so? From all I have seen so far its running much like the RPGA used to when they had the "Living" series of organized play going. Ravens Bluff, Living Jungle, Living Seattle and so on?

I didn't say the RPGA didn't push out Proper D&D. Depends on popularity. Any kind of no-continuity PC-centric Org Play system is a degraded form IMO. It's relatively harmless if it doesn't get too popular.

Quote from: Omega;1078972Again. How so? From all I have seen so far its running much like the RPGA used to when they had the "Living" series of organized play going. Ravens Bluff, Living Jungle, Living Seattle and so on?

Because in order to be fair to all participants the designers have to homogenize campaigns and settings. Encounters has to be balanced and treasure awards appropriate for the difficulty and level.

A home campaign in contrast can flows more naturally with life of the setting of a campaign. My campaign can feature a stingy treasure distribution that comprised of mundane valuable items where your campaign can feature a rich treasure distribution that mostly comprised of various magical items.

Both make sense in terms of our respective settings. While organized play has to set on a single standard that pleases the average player ranging from Seattle Washington to Miami Florida.

In addition the choices of character creations likewise must be balanced. A Fighter can be different and specialized can't be more efficient over the course of a organized play campaign compared to a wizard. And vice versa. This also distorts the design of adventures as they have to design to allow for all the character creation options to shine. Which usually includes everything in the core book.

To any of this otherwise would result in a unfair outcome for a segment of those involved in organized play.

These issues are not limited to organized play for tabletop roleplaying. They also effect MMORPGS and LARPS that are part of national organizations. Something I experienced when I own a NERO boffer LARP chapter from 1999 to 2003. As a favor I will run organized play events at my local game store and when I first did this it was very similar to some of the things I had while managing events for my LARP chapter.

The upside to all this is the sense of community one develops through participating. Knowing that you are part of a larger whole grappling with the current campaign season. That you can go to a convention or another event and take your character and items with you.

Most of the people who are heavily involved in organized play are not there because they couldn't cut it in a home campaign. Because they become part of the local organized play group and develop friendships with those involved.

Quote from: S'mon;1078974It's relatively harmless if it doesn't get too popular.

Sorry but that a pipe dream, the shared community experience and tracking of items and experience is quite addictive. What needs to be done to make sure that game companies keep their organized play material and considerations out of their core books. And hold them to that.

A major issue with D&D 3.5 and D&D 4e was that both were designed with organized play considerations within the core rule book. D&D 4e moreso.

Quote from: estar;1078997Most of the people who are heavily involved in organized play are not there because they couldn't cut it in a home campaign. Because they become part of the local organized play group and develop friendships with those involved.

This has been my experience with the Starfinder Society (Paizo's version of organized play) My brother and I, our personal groups are rather unreliable, but the society is pretty good at getting people in seats. The price you pay, as you said, is that the gaming is more regimented and standardized.

Quote from: estar;1078998Sorry but that a pipe dream, the shared community experience and tracking of items and experience is quite addictive. What needs to be done to make sure that game companies keep their organized play material and considerations out of their core books. And hold them to that.

A major issue with D&D 3.5 and D&D 4e was that both were designed with organized play considerations within the core rule book. D&D 4e moreso.

   I'm one of the few people on this forum who appreciates 4E, and even I have to concede this. :) But I'm not sure that's ever going to change now--WotC has a history of successful Organized Play that goes back to before they even acquired D&D.

Quote from: estar;1078998Sorry but that a pipe dream, the shared community experience and tracking of items and experience is quite addictive. What needs to be done to make sure that game companies keep their organized play material and considerations out of their core books. And hold them to that.

A major issue with D&D 3.5 and D&D 4e was that both were designed with organized play considerations within the core rule book. D&D 4e moreso.

From working with Dragon Storm I can attest to that. Players loved it. Until the people running the Guild progressively ruined it.

So far it seems like its been the other way around for 5e and its organized play. They just recently adapted into AL elements from the books instead. And not sure, but far as I ever saw way back, little from Ravens Bluff ever seemed to actually make it outside of the RPGA. Same for Living Jungle. If any of that ever made it to published books I never saw it. For now at least the AL seems mostly open ended with the ongoing events from modules being there to play in. But from reading the packet seems you are free to adventure in other stuff within certain limits.

With AL the one thing I have not yet pinned down is if you can run prior modules and still garner points. Like for example hosting Tyranny of Dragons first before rolling into the current event which I believe is Dragon Heist?

I found this little gem in the comments on Frank's Facebook:

QuoteI looked at the Garycon website forums and noted that the "Other" forum is described as "Politics, sports, and how to pick up chicks."
That told me enough about them.
"Cast out the mote in one's own eye..."

and then:

QuoteWow...I read the the thread...they apologize for the title of the forum containing the word Chicks...insisted that it was a left over from the previous forums....so now the scrubbed the apology for not acting until Frank pointed it out.... A non apology for an apology

As I said, if they applied their Draconian rules fairly, they'd ban themselves.

The situation seems to continue on social media. What shall I say? - I am glad that I wrote what I wrote here a month ago.

This is not about principles. This is about Frank being treated very unfairly, from all we know so far. Let's take care that this is corrected.

I don't think anything should change.  

He doesn't have a right to be a guest of honor.  Garycon parted ways with him; that's their right.  

From everything I've seen on this thread, there are plenty of reasons to disinvite him.

Mind you that the way GaryCon generally handles their guests is not on trial here: That they're making a bad argument while removing one specific guest is.

So, their plan for taking the high road was to call Frank out in public by branding him as a "harbinger", and then spend, what, two months on social media bitching about how that callout was totally misunderstood, supposedly out of context, and ? - Again, not much to say here, other than that the self-appointed leaders of the OSR should behave in a more professional fashion.

If Frank is a harasser, as they claim - in ways that transgress what his original accuser has stated -, they are empowering him by their own stupidity.

If Frank is not, and they are accusing him in the court of public opinion based on false claims or based on hearsay, they are undermining their own authority and interests in a way that is remarkable.

In any case, not my battle to fight. Hard to watch, though, as a general fan of the hobby. For ten years, whenever my mates and I talked about visiting the states, it was all about GaryCon. Not any more, now.

So now that the dust has settled. What was the result? Some were crowing that GC had an even bigger attendance this year as if removing Frank was the reason.

Wouldn't it be just reasonable to assume that the dust up caused enough coverage that more people knew GC existed? (As in why would they leap directly to the conclusion that the removal was the reason instead of just getting talked about more in any context increased awareness.)

The people that were bitching about Bill Webb or Frank Mentzer being at a convention were not people that were every seriously considering attending these conventions in the first place, so, no, I don't believe that any of these cons benefited from increased attendance due to those actions.

I mean, seriously - does anyone truly believe that fuckwits like Stacy Dellofano or Jessica Price would attend GaryCon, Gamehole Con or NTRPGcon?

Bill Webb still went to GaryCon, and Frank Mentzer wasn't banned from GaryCon, he just wasn't a "special guest" - he could have attended if he desired.  I'm quite sure that if he had decided to attend, it would have had no effect, positive or negative, on other's attendance at the con.

Quote from: kythri;1081697The people that were bitching about Bill Webb or Frank Mentzer being at a convention were not people that were every seriously considering attending these conventions in the first place, so, no, I don't believe that any of these cons benefited from increased attendance due to those actions.

I mean, seriously - does anyone truly believe that fuckwits like Stacy Dellofano or Jessica Price would attend GaryCon, Gamehole Con or NTRPGcon?

Bill Webb still went to GaryCon, and Frank Mentzer wasn't banned from GaryCon, he just wasn't a "special guest" - he could have attended if he desired.  I'm quite sure that if he had decided to attend, it would have had no effect, positive or negative, on other's attendance at the con.

Attendance was up this year at GaryCon, we set a new record. We had more than 2,500 registered attendees by the time I showed up on Thursday Afternoon, and these counts didn't include the Friday and Saturday drop-ins that just show up and purchase badges at the show. That reminds me, I need to finish my Sunday report and then post links for all four of my GaryCon Blog reports. Monday Morning seems good to wrap up for this, and I'll post links for my conventions reports here in the morning! Blog reports for the first three days are already up on the website linked below, if you want a look-see...

Oh, don't get me wrong - I'm not saying you didn't have record attendance.

I'm saying the SJW outrage over Mentzer and Webb didn't contribute to that.  I don't believe for a second that any of the perpetually-outraged ever considered going to your con before the incidents, and I don't believe that the attempted appeasement of these assholes by your con convinced these people to attend, where they wouldn't have otherwise.

Yeah, the idea that attendance to an OSR convention was due to the censoring of well-known OSR people is ridiculous.

From reports, Garycon is not an OSR convention, but a convention with a large OSR element.  

GameDaddy, was this year's increase in attendance among the OSR side or the 5e/PF OrgPlay side?

I also don't really see how Frank Mentzer has anything to do with the OSR. The handful of products Eldritch Entertainment produced were statted system neutrally.  And most of Frog God's output are simply either 5e (the new stuff they put out) or 3e products (the stuff they regurgitate every few years), re-statted for S&W, often badly. The only genuine OSR product they've produced is The Black Monastery, and even that was originally produced back in the day, not commissioned as a modern day OSR product.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1082941From reports, Garycon is not an OSR convention, but a convention with a large OSR element.  

GameDaddy, was this year's increase in attendance among the OSR side or the 5e/PF OrgPlay side?

Both... Last years attendance was just over 1,700, and we hit 2,500 before Friday! this year. 5e and Pathfinder both sold out all of their organized play events. On Friday and Saturday for 5e, Their was only one open table in the 5e room, and same deal for Pathfinder events except there was no tables open where dedicated Paizo folk were running games. There were plenty of off grid 5e and PF games as well. There are a lot of peopel now at GaryCon that simply get together with their favorite gaming buddies every year and run games in their private suites. Both Stefano Pokorny and Joe Manganiello took huge suites and were running games all weekend long. With Stefano, I think he only moves out after Monday morning when the LGCC staff come to clean out his room. I know his game was running on Sunday night, because I brought event guests in that had become disoriented, and his beautiful Dwarven Forge tebletop game was in full swing late Sunday right before I departed. Pretty sure he did those big Minis Kickstarters just so he would have enough money so that he could game in style at all the shows he goes to.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083037There are a lot of peopel now at GaryCon that simply get together with their favorite gaming buddies every year and run games in their private suites.

That sounds like the most appealing element, for me. I don't care about 5e or Pathfinder (FWIW, personally, I don't think of them as being "OSR" games), but I'm all for getting together with buddies and playing original D&D or 1e AD&D or Chainmail or Field of Glory, et cetera.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083037There are a lot of peopel now at GaryCon that simply get together with their favorite gaming buddies every year and run games in their private suites

Yeah, I've been attending Gary Con since 2011 and it's always been the case that people run private, off-grid games. Back at the original location, when the convention was much, much smaller and not commercialized (no Pathfinder Society, no Adventurers League, for example), these games mainly happened in the common areas (restaurant, bar). I really miss those days. Now, at the new location, with big crowds (mainly driven by "organized" play) creating noisy, jam-packed space with very limited open gaming tables, these off-grid games have migrated into the suites (and some games that would have been on-grid before are now run off-grid there because of the crowding and noise). My group of friends alone typically has 2-3 suites where we run invite only, off-grid games.

In his latest vlog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXt1lK9l2ws) Tim Kask says that Wizards of the Coast was the motivating force behind Frank's removal as Guest of Honor. Which backs up what many suggested earlier; despite Luke's denial here  (https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2019/02/luke-gygax-follows-up-on-frank-mentzers.html) that anyone 'strong-armed' him. I think Luke, Tim, Frank, and even Wizards of the Coast themselves have fallen victim to the wave of relational aggression sweeping the hobby recently. They probably don't even realise what's happening or the part they are playing in it. Which is a common feature of relational aggression. You are 'strong-armed' in a relational aggression sense when someone threatens to cut ties with you if you don't do what they want. This is exactly what the Wizards did to Luke.

Tim's oblivious stance is particularly sad to see given that he's most likely the next target; along with Len Lakofka. I remember reading an article where he, Gary Gygax, and Len Lakofka were depicted as hung in effigy (https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1200/1*D5PAWCot12JG5MMmY80q4g.jpeg); Lakofka is expecting to be Guest of Honor next year.

Also it was sad to see the pile-on on Frank from all corners of the hobby. I saw many instances of people dis-regarding their own in-person experience at Frank's games or his house because someone they've never met or even heard of made an (almost certainly wildly exaggerated if not totally unfounded) accusation against him.

Quote from: mightybrain;1083249In his latest vlog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXt1lK9l2ws) Tim Kask says that Wizards of the Coast was the motivating force behind Frank's removal as Guest of Honor.

Is there evidence?

It would not surprise me as WotC is a shitbag company full of shitbags, but that's a big statement to drop, especially as it would make Luke look like a clown.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1083306Is there evidence?

It would not surprise me as WotC is a shitbag company full of shitbags, but that's a big statement to drop, especially as it would make Luke look like a clown.

This. No offense to user "mightybrain", but Tim Kask is not a reliable source of information - and that's putting things mildly.

It's normal that WotC or Hasbro are handing out "code of conduct"-like documents to their affiliates and sponsored bodies. It's also very possible that WotC got tired of the ongoing drama that came with third-party D&D publishers behaving extremely unprofessionally, as has evidently happened, and advised their affiliates to distance themselves from people who are considered problematic or controversial. Which is certainly not "friendly", but somewhat understandable given that not all the drama of the last few years was completely neglectable.

Now, Mr Kask having to offer deeper insights onto the matter is what I evidently doubt:

First, because he is likely only citing second- or third-hand information; in other words, he is gossiping. Or is he REALLY in a position where he gets personally handed internal memos from GaryCon, from Hasbro's affiliate program, or, well, from anyone?

Second, because this is more of the same self-congratulatory baloney that we've all become accustomed to hear from the old TSR/1e/Lake Geneva clique:



It's not that they are apparently absolutely insufferable to work with, and that they can get nothing done on their own. It's CONSPIRACEE! Always.

Frank makes an ass of himself on DF - somebody must have hacked his computer.

Kask gets stepped over for guest-of-honor duties - it's not he has said so much utterly disgusting shit over the years that noone in their right mind will have him in any sort of representative position. It's that the invisible devil-claw of Hasbro pushed him out! Because, by default, that makes him important!


I'm not writing this out of spite, or to mock Kask after I defended Frank with so much fervor. But this utter nonsense isn't helping anybody; the question is, how we get everybody back to the same gaming table, and leave all the crazytalk behind?

Quote from: Rafael;1083323I'm not writing this out of spite, or to mock Kask after I defended Frank with so much fervor. But this utter nonsense isn't helping anybody; the question is, how we get everybody back to the same gaming table, and leave all the crazytalk behind?

We all sit around and play friendly and fun games together, like we did when we were young. This is what we wanted and what we did this year at GaryCon, and even so, some SJW folks with torches and pitchforks went after Steve Jackson, who privately supports the LGBT community, doing a lot more for them, supporting their equal rights under the constitution, and making opportunities available to, and for them. The ignorant SJW know about none of this though.

Quote from: Rafael;1083323Now, Mr Kask having to offer deeper insights onto the matter is what I evidently doubt:

First, because he is likely only citing second- or third-hand information; in other words, he is gossiping. Or is he REALLY in a position where he gets personally handed internal memos from GaryCon, from Hasbro's affiliate program, or, well, from anyone?

He might have personal connections to people in a position to know. Yes, he's possibly gossiping...or not. You and I don't have any deeper info either, so if he's gossiping, we're likely doing the same.

Quote from: Rafael;1083323Second, because this is more of the same self-congratulatory baloney that we've all become accustomed to hear from the old TSR/1e/Lake Geneva clique:

It's not that they are apparently absolutely insufferable to work with, and that they can get nothing done on their own. It's CONSPIRACEE! Always.

Frank makes an ass of himself on DF - somebody must have hacked his computer.

Kask gets stepped over for guest-of-honor duties - it's not he has said so much utterly disgusting shit over the years that noone in their right mind will have him in any sort of representative position. It's that the invisible devil-claw of Hasbro pushed him out! Because, by default, that makes him important!

I'd say the "clique" has plenty of reasons to self-congratulate. I don't know if you noticed, but they did take part in inventing the hobby.

Is it elegant? Not really, but I can hardly fault them for being proud of what they helped Gygax achieve.

Now, as relating to their more recent achievements, or lack thereof, I concur. They seem to be out of touch with modern production methods and schedules, and can't seem to deliver on promises. They probably would do better allowing themselves to be remembered as they once were instead of tarnishing their former reputation.

Quote from: Rafael;1083323I'm not writing this out of spite, or to mock Kask after I defended Frank with so much fervor. But this utter nonsense isn't helping anybody; the question is, how we get everybody back to the same gaming table, and leave all the crazytalk behind?

Oh, I can clearly see from your previous statements you didn't intend to mock Kask or anyone else. After all, who in their right mind would confuse language like that with a steady drip of venom? /s

With respect to the matter of coming back to our senses, I guess things will get worse before they get better. At a certain point in the hopefully not-too-distant future, something will break the spell and we will be released from the Geas.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083340We all sit around and play friendly and fun games together, like we did when we were young.

This.

Now, as to the SJW thing - was there another incident, a manifestation, whatever, or is it just the usual "young adults furiously twittering"? - As to Bill Webb's role in the industry, I don't know enough about the case to form a clear opinion. In his place, if there is any truth to the accusations against him, I would probably do a lot of penance. - That said, if there is any truth to the accusations against him, this is a police case, and not a social media case. If alleged witnesses and victims can speak on Twitter, then they can speak in court.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1083430They probably would do better allowing themselves to be remembered as they once were instead of tarnishing their former reputation.

I don't think you and I are in disagreement on this matter. I'm not getting myself involved in this debate because I would be generally critical of the people we mentioned; it's because I think that the community needs to remain open to them despite the events of the last ten years.

QuoteOh, I can clearly see from your previous statements you didn't intend to mock Kask or anyone else. After all, who in their right mind would confuse language like that with a steady drip of venom? /s

...But we need to call out them on the most obvious bullshit. Tim Kask, who is single-handedly responsible for the whole St Paul group quitting our part of the web through the disrespectful and damaging comments he made in the wake of Dave Arneson's illness and death in 2007/2008, is out there again, telling tall tales and playing the role of the divider. That's not cool.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1083430With respect to the matter of coming back to our senses, I guess things will get worse before they get better. At a certain point in the hopefully not-too-distant future, something will break the spell and we will be released from the Geas.

...Because, as you say, this makes things worse. We need a sense of unity in our community if we want to be more than "wardens in a museum", ten years from now. The tragedy of stuff like the Mentzer meltdown, or of similar incidents is that they excerpt (English?) us from further positive contributions that those people might still be able to make. - And as things are looking now, with Mentzer, Kask and others more or less openly disavowing GaryCon, and Gail Gygax displaying on Facebook how she's apparently having world's longest-lasting stroke it doesn't look like we're on our way to win those possible contributions back, any time soon.

So, what would be sorely needed would be to take the edge of this entire topic - and, to return to the original topic of this thread, that's why I consider Luke's behavior towards Mentzer so profoundly damaging. It drives people apart that under normal circumstances shouldn't be competing with one another.

Quote from: Rafael;1083323But this utter nonsense isn't helping anybody; the question is, how we get everybody back to the same gaming table, and leave all the crazytalk behind?

We all need to snort some killer nyborg!

[video=youtube;sj8W5LhvMtQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj8W5LhvMtQ[/youtube]

Quote from: Rafael;1083497We need a sense of unity in our community if we want to be more than "wardens in a museum", ten years from now.

I'm cool with Wardens in the Museum.

10 years is a long time. Who knows what will be left our hobby by then? Or what form most play will take?

However, there will always be a small audience who want to try "old games" and be open to enjoying them for what they are.

Quote from: Rafael;1083497I don't think you and I are in disagreement on this matter. I'm not getting myself involved in this debate because I would be generally critical of the people we mentioned; it's because I think that the community needs to remain open to them despite the events of the last ten years.

Yes, I do believe we agree on this.

Quote from: Rafael;1083497...But we need to call out them on the most obvious bullshit. Tim Kask, who is single-handedly responsible for the whole St Paul group quitting our part of the web through the disrespectful and damaging comments he made in the wake of Dave Arneson's illness and death in 2007/2008, is out there again, telling tall tales and playing the role of the divider. That's not cool.

As far as I can tell, Kask seems to have a very strong dislike of Arneson because of a perceived attempt to inflate Arneson's importance in the creation of D&D. Kask has repeatedly said he thinks Arneson had great ideas, and did a great deal towards developing the brainstorming part of the design process, but had little to no ability to actually produce material to be published. I think this stems from the fact that Kask was the editor, and therefore handled all the rough material that was handed to him with the instructions to "make this printable and sellable", which colored his perceptions indelibly.

Now, if he was right on that or not is debatable, and probably not something that can be completely decided either way.

As for his behavior, I completely agree, it was uncalled for, specially given the circumstances (Arneson passing). I'm generally of the opinion that disparaging someone right after their death is a douche move, and you should remain quiet until enough time has passed to allow for people to absorb the impact (that is, if you have such strong feelings that you really want to say something bad about the person). Regarding the situation as it's developing now, I think everyone is out of their depth. Nobody was really prepared for this cultural wave that hit us in the last half-decade or so, and people react with their gut most of the time. That's why responses to accusations run the gamut from abject surrender to defiant confrontation. I think that's one of the reasons why people are putting their feet in their proverbial mouths so frequently.

Quote from: Rafael;1083497...Because, as you say, this makes things worse. We need a sense of unity in our community if we want to be more than "wardens in a museum", ten years from now. The tragedy of stuff like the Mentzer meltdown, or of similar incidents is that they excerpt (English?) us from further positive contributions that those people might still be able to make. - And as things are looking now, with Mentzer, Kask and others more or less openly disavowing GaryCon, and Gail Gygax displaying on Facebook how she's apparently having world's longest-lasting stroke it doesn't look like we're on our way to win those possible contributions back, any time soon.

So, what would be sorely needed would be to take the edge of this entire topic - and, to return to the original topic of this thread, that's why I consider Luke's behavior towards Mentzer so profoundly damaging. It drives people apart that under normal circumstances shouldn't be competing with one another.

As I said above, people don't know how to properly react. Nobody even knows what proper means anymore. Like S'Mon said in another thread, Webb drunkenly hit on someone, but that's hardly Weinstein-level stuff. Should the punishment be the same? Some people certainly seem to think so, and are campaigning to make it happen.

Quote from: Rafael;1083497with Mentzer, Kask and others more or less openly disavowing GaryCon

I think you've misunderstood something somewhere. Neither Frank nor Tim have disavowed GaryCon. Frank has played the victim card and pointed his finger at the "suits" by which I assume he means Wizards of the Coast. Tim on the other hand has sided with Luke, GaryCon, and Wizards of the Coast which he sees as part of cleaning up the hobby.

Tim has also flagellated himself over his own role in being an "inadvertent gatekeeper." It's true, he has shot his mouth of at times. But as for being a gatekeeper I think his role pales into insignificance next to the 'you shall not pass' edicts from Wizards of the Coast.

Quote from: mightybrain;1083805I think you've misunderstood something somewhere. Neither Frank nor Tim have disavowed GaryCon. Frank has played the victim card and pointed his finger at the "suits" by which I assume he means Wizards of the Coast. Tim on the other hand has sided with Luke, GaryCon, and Wizards of the Coast which he sees as part of cleaning up the hobby.

I am glad if I'm wrong about this, because this is not what I want. My impression was that people were pretty miffed, though.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1083529As I said above, people don't know how to properly react. Nobody even knows what proper means anymore. Like S'Mon said in another thread, Webb drunkenly hit on someone, but that's hardly Weinstein-level stuff. Should the punishment be the same? Some people certainly seem to think so, and are campaigning to make it happen.

As noted in the other thread, I've (re-) introduced my own, charming self on RPGNet in the meantime. Still can't really say anything about the incident itself, but, holy crap, if that is the usual behavior for some people to show in cases like this, then the community has a serious problem. Kids and psychos taking over a topic that, well, shouldn't be for kids and psycho to take over, bad. Very bad, really.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1083503We all need to snort some killer nyborg!

...Is probably best. :cool:

Seriously, though, I hope that oldschool D&D has another generation to go. People continue drift towards it. I hope it can keep that energy, despite all the gonzo sideshow drama. :)

This was posted on Frank's Facebook page. Apparently he has made a complaint to his bureau of consumer protection and Luke has responded. It seems this feud goes way deeper than has been publicly posted until now.

Quote5/10/2019
Luke Gygax
Good Omen Productions, LLC
3157 W. Barry Rd
Lake Geneva, WI 53147

Ms. Kathi Ashmore
Bureau of Consumer Protection
2811 Agriculture Dr
Madison, WI 53708-8911

Dear Ms. Ashmore,

I am responding to the complaint you addressed to Good Omen Productions from Frank Mentzer (File 93796) dated May 7, 2019. Mr. Mentzer has misrepresented the facts of the matter and I will explain and document the situation for you in this letter. Allow me to explain a little about what the company does. The company operates an annual memorial convention held in honor of Gary Gygax, my father and the creator of the game Dungeons and Dragons. Mr. Mentzer was a longtime friend of my father's and worked for him in the early 1980's. Mr. Mentzer was invited as a Guest to Gary Con for the past several years out of respect for his friendship with my father and his contributions to the industry in the early 1980s.

First of all I want to acknowledge the factual portions of what Mr. Mentzer stated. We never had a contract nor promise of any payment to him. He was invited to attend Gary Con as a Guest and to run some tabletop games. There was no offer or promise of any payment. He paid the company no money, nor did we offer or promise any payment to him. Mr. Mentzer was one of approximately sixty Guests initially invited to Gary Con 2019, and he was scheduled to run 5 or 6 events, table top game sessions, out of the over 1600 scheduled events. Events are run by attendees and Guests alike during the convention. So he was not in a unique position nor did his attendance represent a significant part of the activities at the convention.

It was determined that Mr. Mentzer was not a suitable Guest during the latter part of 2018. I attempted to talk to him by phone, as we have known one another for many years, to inform him of the decision to remove him as a Guest. The issue began after several people including other Guests, attendees and vendors expressed concern over Mr. Mentzer being invited as a Guest at Gary Con 2019. I investigated their concerns and it was determined that his actions where not a good representation of the convention as they were in violation of our published policies. There were three main pieces of information that led to this determination; Mr. Mentzer's online interactions with a fellow industry professional named Jessica Price (Exhibit A), Mr. Mentzer's online interactions with a forum member on Dragonsfoot Forum (Exhibit B) and my conversation with my sister, who is also a member of the company, where she reported to me that Mr. Mentzer had told her in a public setting at a previous Gary Con "to get out of here, you are making me horny." My sister was with her son at the time and felt insulted, but out of respect for Mr. Mentzer, my father's longtime friend, and a desire not to escalate the situation, she didn't report it when it happened. These kind of actions don't represent our company and are against the company's policies (Exhibit C). Two of these items are searchable on the internet by searching "Frank Mentzer misconduct". The last item was personally conveyed to me and isn't a matter of public information.

I was finally able to contact Mr. Mentzer by phone in February after repeated attempts, and informed him that he would not be listed as a Guest. I did however express to him clearly that he was able to attend the convention and he was not banned. This offer was made out of respect to his personal friendship with my father and the years of acquaintanceship with the family. Further the convention would offer him a complimentary badge, shared lodging, and allow him to run games as planned. During that phone call, Mr. Mentzer spoke to me harshly, told me that he would not attend and hung up the phone on me. He sent a text to me following the call that mischaracterized the situation and accused me of chasing big bucks. I replied to him expressing that he was welcome to attend and that this was not a personal attack on him (Exhibit D).

Mr. Mentzer emailed me the next day stating that I had declared war and joined his enemies. He threatened to make false statements publicly to discredit my family and the company. He also made some connection to a private party that he was holding at his residence. The email seemed out of context and was very concerning to me. I asked him to cease communications with me (Exhibit E). It was after these actions from Mr. Mentzer that I decided to make a public statement about removing him as a Guest. I didn't want a false narrative to be circulated. I posted a statement on our website saying Frank was no longer a Guest at Gary Con due to his actions that are not in alignment with our policies (Exhibit F).

Mr. Mentzer continued to contact me indirectly by using the customer service email for Gary Con (Exhibit G) and having mutual friends call me. I did agree to hear what Mr. Mentzer wanted to say. He sent me an email that once again seemed out of context and not based in reality. He claimed that I had attacked him and was considered a traitor publicly. Further he demanded that I apologize to him, admit I am wrong and reinstate him as a Guest amongst other things (Exhibit H). I didn't respond to him. He continued to contact me by email for the months demanding that I fix this problem. When I didn't respond Mr. Mentzer stated he would contact the company and state oversight agencies about my worldwide libels (Exhibit I). Mr. Mentzer contacted the Lake Geneva Chamber of Commerce and Walworth County Administrator to complain that I had engaged in a bad transaction and made false statements about him. I contacted the Walworth County Administrator by phone to discuss the situation. Mr. Bretl stated that this wasn't under his purview and that he wouldn't take any action.
Mr. Mentzer has no grounds for his complaint. I have provided the information to you in order to keep the company's reputation protected.

I have no desire to communicate with Mr. Mentzer as a member of the company nor on a private person. His actions and consistent emails are a harassment, and his attempts to damage the business appear to be founded in some personal grudge. For those reasons I am not copying Mr. Mentzer in my response. Thank you for your time in this matter.

Respectfully Submitted,
Luke Gygax
Member
Good Omen Productions, LLC

Quote from: mightybrain;1090631This was posted on Frank's Facebook page. Apparently he has made a complaint to his bureau of consumer protection and Luke has responded. It seems this feud goes way deeper than has been publicly posted until now.

LOfuckinL

Seriously, is Mentzer just another old coot who thinks he's a real celebrity instead of a well-known guy within an extremely small community? At least Kuntz had the decency to stop going to conventions once it became apparent his time was done; old Frank doesn't seem to realize that ship has sailed. Sad as hell, I really enjoyed talking to the guy.

I can see how Frank felt betrayed when someone used Jessica Price as their star witness against him.  If you stab someone in the back then you dont get to act like the victim when they get angry at you.

What a clusterfuck.

I guess it's not the 1970s any more and those Austin Powers lines are inadvisable.

Quote from: Shasarak;1090649I can see how Frank felt betrayed when someone used Jessica Price as their star witness against him.

Er, I think it was actually Luke's sister that probably was the straw that broke the camel's back

Quote from: JeremyR;1090669Er, I think it was actually Luke's sister that probably was the straw that broke the camel's back

Certainly sounds that way!

Quote from: mightybrain;1090631This was posted on Frank's Facebook page. Apparently he has made a complaint to his bureau of consumer protection and Luke has responded...

Told ya so. The guests that are removed are removed for cause, and their actions either damage the hobby, or the convention itself. I didn't see Luke solely caving in to SJW pressure when making a decision regarding guests of honor for GaryCon, and stand by my earlier comments regarding this.

It is my opinion that people should just be pleasant to each other, get along, and share their appreciation of RPGs, and other tabletop games. We can all really do without all the rest of the drama.

Except where was Luke's sob story about his sister previously?

Nothing more than the sister story was needed in the first place. Few gamers would defend Mentzer for creeping on a Gygaxian.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1091450Except where was Luke's sob story about his sister previously?

Nothing more than the sister story was needed in the first place. Few gamers would defend Mentzer for creeping on a Gygaxian.

Do you mean this Gygaxian?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3495[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Spinachcat;1091450Except where was Luke's sob story about his sister previously?

It shouldn't have been necessary.  He didn't owe us an explanation.

Quote from: Shasarak;1091454Do you mean this Gygaxian?

Are you saying that creeping on her is okay?  Because I don't think so.  Not if she looked like that today, and not if she looked like that 42 years ago.

...And to Frank's defense I go, AGAIN. - Nah, not really. Luke isn't quite behaving like the secretary of gentlemanly affairs, but Frank needs to stop using Facebook to publish his own statements. If this is serious, go get an attorney. If it's not, then stop with the mudslinging.

Now, as to the letter to the... Chamber of Commerce? - Frank certainly doesn't look good, here: Him writing rambling emails and making statements that might suggest that he is suffering from some sort of bipolar disorder, not news per themselves, at this point.

But Luke and GaryCon, oh, what a PR disaster: First, because both the DF as well as the Jessica Price situation are quite debatable; second, because the sister-ex-machina story, however true, reads like an attempt at a backdoor justification. Even if it's understandable how he might not have wanted to involve her back when the first "Harbinger Unheeded" statement dropped, and how he possibly might have wanted not to hurt Frank's already damaged situation - this had to be in the first statement. Because the way it's looking now, he comes off as somebody who is, quite simply, not in control.

Nothing good will come from this, at this point. What a sad statement about the hobby, in itself.

Quote from: Rafael;1091546Because the way it's looking now, he comes off as somebody who is, quite simply, not in control.

That won't matter one iota to the woke.

The woman in those pictures deserves to receive the very same attention that was directly sought by that advertising.

To complain about such a thing; would be like fishing, and complaining about actually catching fish.

Quote from: Razor 007;1091689The woman in those pictures deserves to receive the very same attention that was directly sought by that advertising.

That attention would be people buying RPG manuals, right?

Quote from: Razor 007;1091689The woman in those pictures deserves to receive the very same attention that was directly sought by that advertising.

To complain about such a thing; would be like fishing, and complaining about actually catching fish.

Amazing how many alt light, edge lord nationalists are in our hobby. Paul Rein Hagen is a NAZI and the dunces turn out in full force to defend him. To the bozo writing about someone being an actual communist my bet it, they can't even define what a communist is, or Communism. Frank got booted because of Frank. Stop making excuses for a douche. Unless you too are a douche, then march on.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099381Amazing how many alt light, edge lord nationalists are in our hobby. Paul Rein Hagen is a NAZI and the dunces turn out in full force to defend him. To the bozo writing about someone being an actual communist my bet it, they can't even define what a communist is, or Communism. Frank got booted because of Frank. Stop making excuses for a douche. Unless you too are a douche, then march on.

Obvious troll is obvious.

Frank Metzer may be a senile elderly dickhead, but you're a pathetic troll who's shrieking at invisible Nazis.

I've never even heard of Paul Rein Hagen. I've heard of Mark Rein Hagen, and he's not a Nazi in any sense of the word. He's a left-leaning pacifist.

Just because Mark Rein Hagen is opposed to Antifa and their brute punk thuggery, does not mean he's a Nazi.

You do know that you can hate both Nazis and Antifa, right?

Lemme guess, you're also an Anarcho-Communist, right?

Sorry, but anyone who is communist or anarchist has no right to be calling other people edgelords. Don't throw stones in glass houses, bro.

Go back to Onyx Path Forums or RPG.net.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099381Amazing how many alt light, edge lord nationalists are in our hobby. Paul Rein Hagen is a NAZI and the dunces turn out in full force to defend him. To the bozo writing about someone being an actual communist my bet it, they can't even define what a communist is, or Communism. Frank got booted because of Frank. Stop making excuses for a douche. Unless you too are a douche, then march on.

Are you referring to Mark Rein Hagen? The creator of Vampire?

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099381Amazing how many alt light, edge lord nationalists are in our hobby. Paul Rein Hagen is a NAZI and the dunces turn out in full force to defend him.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099381Posts: 1

*get-a-load of this guy cam appears*

Quote from: Razor 007;1091689The woman in those pictures deserves to receive the very same attention that was directly sought by that advertising.

To complain about such a thing; would be like fishing, and complaining about actually catching fish.

Jesus Christ. And people wonder why this place has a reputation as a den of bitter middle-aged troglodytes. Woman poses for sexy picture 40 years ago to sell books and now she has no right to complain whenever a guy sleazes on her. SJWs are annoying as fuck, but this sort of retrograde shit proves they might have a point when it comes to the misogynist losers in this hobby.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099381Amazing how many alt light, edge lord nationalists are in our hobby.

Welcome aboard TooBoCoup!

As for nationalists, everybody should be a nationalist, or move to another country they prefer. Everyone should love their country and want its leaders to put their country's interests first and foremost. Those who don't love own their country need to LEGALLY immigrate to where they prefer to live.  

And if you think Mark Rein*Hagen is a Naughty Nootzi, you're gonna LOVE hanging with us!!! Buckle up kiddo!

But seriously, welcome to theRPGsite and remember we're a FREE SPEECH FORUM. It does NOT matter if any of us agree with each other, all that matters is we support and defend everyone to voice their opinion.

Also, please start a thread about your favorite RPG!

Quote from: Haffrung;1099411Jesus Christ.

You rang?

Razor 007's post isn't half as cringey as those whackass "sexy poses to sell RPG books" ads using Gary's own daughter.

Creepy!!! "Hey dad, can I get half-naked for all your fans?" "Sure baby doll, as your parent that sounds like a fine idea!" [cue bong rip sound F/X]

But models shouldn't be demeaned because of their work. That's not okay.

As for our Mos Eisley reputation, fuck the SJWs. We're a free speech forum and that burns them to the core.

As a free speech forum, there will ALWAYS be speech that not everyone agrees with. That's the point.

Quote from: Haffrung;1099411Jesus Christ. And people wonder why this place has a reputation as a den of bitter middle-aged troglodytes. Woman poses for sexy picture 40 years ago to sell books and now she has no right to complain whenever a guy sleazes on her. SJWs are annoying as fuck, but this sort of retrograde shit proves they might have a point when it comes to the misogynist losers in this hobby.

You know, you're actually right about that on this one.

We should not give the whiny punks at RPG.net and Onyx Path Forums any ammunition to use against us.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099381Amazing how many alt light, edge lord nationalists are in our hobby. Paul Rein Hagen is a NAZI and the dunces turn out in full force to defend him. To the bozo writing about someone being an actual communist my bet it, they can't even define what a communist is, or Communism. Frank got booted because of Frank. Stop making excuses for a douche. Unless you too are a douche, then march on.

That sounds exactly like the kind of thing that an ctl left douche communist would say.

Pfft, march on.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099414We should not give the whiny punks at RPG.net and Onyx Path Forums any ammunition to use against us.

We do not kneel to their anti-free speech ideology...that's all the "ammunition" they'll ever need.

SJWs can never be appeased, so there's no reason to change our behavior for their "approval."

If YOU have a problem with someone's post, it's on YOU to take them to task.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1099416If YOU have a problem with someone's post, it's on YOU to take them to task.

B-but wait, isn't that what the mods are for?
:confused:

Quote from: Haffrung;1099411Jesus Christ. And people wonder why this place has a reputation as a den of bitter middle-aged troglodytes. Woman poses for sexy picture 40 years ago to sell books and now she has no right to complain whenever a guy sleazes on her. SJWs are annoying as fuck, but this sort of retrograde shit proves they might have a point when it comes to the misogynist losers in this hobby.

A woman in a sexy costume got attention!* It's truly Handmaid's Tale come to life.

*Actually, for a 70's magazine ad, I think it was pretty tame and forgettable, but for the sake of argument...

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1099421A woman in a sexy costume got attention!* It's truly Handmaid's Tale come to life.

*Actually, for a 70's magazine ad, I think it was pretty tame and forgettable, but for the sake of argument...

Yeah, it's only scandalous by modern neo-puritan standards. It's more like "Hey, why not wear a vaguely futuristic (by 1970s ideals) costume for a photoshoot about a futuristic game"

It's like how the original series of Star Trek gets attacked now because women on it wore mini-skirts. But back then, even grandmothers wore mini-skirts. Because they wanted to.

Quote from: JeremyR;1099433Yeah, it's only scandalous by modern neo-puritan standards. It's more like "Hey, why not wear a vaguely futuristic (by 1970s ideals) costume for a photoshoot about a futuristic game"

It's like how the original series of Star Trek gets attacked now because women on it wore mini-skirts. But back then, even grandmothers wore mini-skirts. Because they wanted to.

Don't even get me started on Kate "my career is going nowhere so I'm going to suddenly become woke so I can try to be relevant" Mulgrew and her attacks on the original series. Most actresses loved wearing the outfits as they were very comfortable as well as liberating for a women of the time. We won't bring that up as it goes against the narrative. And we all know if it does that it does not exist.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099397Obvious troll is obvious.

Frank Metzer may be a senile elderly dickhead, but you're a pathetic troll who's shrieking at invisible Nazis.

I've never even heard of Paul Rein Hagen. I've heard of Mark Rein Hagen, and he's not a Nazi in any sense of the word. He's a left-leaning pacifist.

Just because Mark Rein Hagen is opposed to Antifa and their brute punk thuggery, does not mean he's a Nazi.

You do know that you can hate both Nazis and Antifa, right?

Lemme guess, you're also an Anarcho-Communist, right?

Sorry, but anyone who is communist or anarchist has no right to be calling other people edgelords. Don't throw stones in glass houses, bro.

Go back to Onyx Path Forums or RPG.net.

Relax Princess. No need to get this excited. Calling someone a troll is the shorthand of the imbecile. Thank you for self identifying, but it was clear already .

Quote from: Spinachcat;1099412Welcome aboard TooBoCoup!

As for nationalists, everybody should be a nationalist, or move to another country they prefer. Everyone should love their country and want its leaders to put their country's interests first and foremost. Those who don't love own their country need to LEGALLY immigrate to where they prefer to live.  

And if you think Mark Rein*Hagen is a Naughty Nootzi, you're gonna LOVE hanging with us!!! Buckle up kiddo!

But seriously, welcome to theRPGsite and remember we're a FREE SPEECH FORUM. It does NOT matter if any of us agree with each other, all that matters is we support and defend everyone to voice their opinion.

Also, please start a thread about your favorite RPG!

Paul Riegel-Green. My oopsie!

Rein Hagen is just a garden variety douche bag.

Nationalism is the refuge of the simple minded. A country is an abstract entity without independent agency. There is no United States or any other place, they are legal fictions.

I had no idea this forum even existed till it came up in a search. Thank you for the welcome!

I'll be happy to start a thread on 1e

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099474Relax Princess. No need to get this excited. Calling someone a troll is the shorthand of the imbecile. Thank you for self identifying, but it was clear already .

Thank you for also self identifying as a control left social regressive. Only interested in hearing and listening from those only interest in promoting a narrative.

If I or others don't  promote or engage the narrative we are trolls. This place is not run not full of posters interested in promoting echo chambers. If you want that feel free to peruse the rpg.net and onyx path forums.

But back to Frank. He really has no one, not Price, not the guy he threatened, not Dragonsfoot and not Luke blame for his troubles. Simply put, he was not staying in his lane. There really is no excuse. What I notice about the manly men of the alt light is that they are all super macho tough men until they see a picture of a few dead American soldiers. Then they cry foul. So it's really just some things that they are tough guys about.

Quote from: sureshot;1099479Thank you for also self identifying as a control left social regressive. Only interested in hearing and listening from those only interest in promoting a narrative.

If I or others don't  promote or engage the narrative we are trolls. This place is not run not full of posters interested in promoting echo chambers. If you want that feel free to peruse the rpg.net and onyx path forums.

lol what are you babbling about my virtue signaling friend?

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099478Paul Riegel-Green. My oopsie!

Who is this person?

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099481But back to Frank. He really has no one, not Price, not the guy he threatened, not Dragonsfoot and not Luke blame for his troubles. Simply put, he was not staying in his lane. There really is no excuse. What I notice about the manly men of the alt light is that they are all super macho tough men until they see a picture of a few dead American soldiers. Then they cry foul. So it's really just some things that they are tough guys about.

Frank Mentzer is a Manly Man of the Alt Light?!

When I think 'Manly Man of the Alt Light' I think

(https://www.marathi.tv/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/caolan-robertson-images.jpg)

The ineffably manly Caolan Robertson. Not an elderly left-wing ex-D&D designer who I'm surre has never heard of the 'Alt Lite'.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099478Nationalism is the refuge of the simple minded. A country is an abstract entity without independent agency. There is no United States or any other place, they are legal fictions.

Is this George Soros' alt..?

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099474Relax Princess. No need to get this excited. Calling someone a troll is the shorthand of the imbecile. Thank you for self identifying, but it was clear already .

If anyone is an imbecile, it's you. You're such a pretentious tryhard.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099482lol what are you babbling about my virtue signaling friend?

Says the poster whose first post was not only virtue signalling at it's finest. While also spouting stereotypical  SJW nonsense. Now you want to pretend to be clueless. Go go ahead. Your just making yourself look dumb as fuck and not fooling anyone. I suppose next you will be saying we are all Nazi, Fascist, Misogynists or whatever hip and cool SJW buzzwords you can call those who have a difference of opinion other than your own. Also cut the bullshit about accidentally find this site. Unless you wrote rpg site and Pundit on Google Search again your not fooling anyone here.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099478Paul Riegel-Green. My oopsie!
Nationalism is the refuge of the simple minded. A country is an abstract entity without independent agency. There is no United States or any other place, they are legal fictions.

Anarcho-Communist fucktard confirmed.

Go the fuck back to RPGnet and Onyx Path Forums.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099489Anarcho-Communist fucktard confirmed.

Go the fuck back to RPGnet and Onyx Path Forums.

Unfortunately in schools they are taught only the positive aspects of Communism by their professors and not the negative aspects. While also going out of their way to not even bother to trying research it on their won. When they do and the negative elements of Communism go to light they get ignored as it goes against the narrative of Communism being the perfect form of government. Anarchists make me laugh as they have no concept of how anarchy truly works. To them it is being able to do what they want whenever they want. They fail to realize that the person to the right and left of them can do the same thing. If society does fall to anarchy with both a collapse of government and law. An armed mob of fellow anarchists can attack them and take whatever they want. Again they pretend not to see that as it goes against the narrative.

Quote from: sureshot;1099490Unfortunately in schools they are taught only the positive aspects of Communism by their professors and not the negative aspects. While also going out of their way to not even bother to trying research it on their won. When they do and the negative elements of Communism go to light they get ignored as it goes against the narrative of Communism being the perfect form of government. Anarchists make me laugh as they have no concept of how anarchy truly works. To them it is being able to do what they want whenever they want. They fail to realize that the person to the right and left of them can do the same thing. If society does fall to anarchy with both a collapse of government and law. An armed mob of fellow anarchists can attack them and take whatever they want. Again they pretend not to see that as it goes against the narrative.

But an anarcho-Communist only has half of that to worry about - because there is no person to their left.

Quote from: sureshot;1099490Unfortunately in schools they are taught only the positive aspects of Communism by their professors and not the negative aspects. While also going out of their way to not even bother to trying research it on their won. When they do and the negative elements of Communism go to light they get ignored as it goes against the narrative of Communism being the perfect form of government. Anarchists make me laugh as they have no concept of how anarchy truly works. To them it is being able to do what they want whenever they want. They fail to realize that the person to the right and left of them can do the same thing. If society does fall to anarchy with both a collapse of government and law. An armed mob of fellow anarchists can attack them and take whatever they want. Again they pretend not to see that as it goes against the narrative.

This is sad, but true.

Anarchism is bullshit and Communism is bullshit and I wish more of my fellow Millennials realized that

Is anyone still talking about GaryCon or has this thread (like far too many) just drifted into the knee-jerk name calling, sound bite spouting that beter belongs in Pundit's Forum?

Quote from: sureshot;1099488Says the poster whose first post was not only virtue signalling at it's finest. While also spouting stereotypical  SJW nonsense. Now you want to pretend to be clueless. Go go ahead. Your just making yourself look dumb as fuck and not fooling anyone. I suppose next you will be saying we are all Nazi, Fascist, Misogynists or whatever hip and cool SJW buzzwords you can call those who have a difference of opinion other than your own. Also cut the bullshit about accidentally find this site. Unless you wrote rpg site and Pundit on Google Search again your not fooling anyone here.

Lol ok neck beard. Good luck on your very long trip to the Middle, Dunce.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099495This is sad, but true.

Anarchism is bullshit and Communism is bullshit and I wish more of my fellow Millennials realized that

As an educator I can 100% promise you that we will destroy your world. We teach your children not only to wipe their asses with every value you hold dear, but to despise you for lying to them and wallowing in ignorance. There is not a drop of exaggeration in this.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099500As an educator I can 100% promise you that we will destroy your world. We teach your children not only to wipe their asses with every value you hold dear, but to despise you for lying to them and wallowing in ignorance. There is not a drop of exaggeration in this.

This made me laugh.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099489Anarcho-Communist fucktard confirmed.

Go the fuck back to RPGnet and Onyx Path Forums.

Make me Bitch. Here or in person, I will always eat your lunch. Got it Virgin?

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099500As an educator I can 100% promise you that we will destroy your world. We teach your children not only to wipe their asses with every value you hold dear, but to despise you for lying to them and wallowing in ignorance. There is not a drop of exaggeration in this.

This has to be a joke. For Christ's sake, this post reads like some Antifa-themed copypasta.

The fact that this guy signed up recently and every single post he's made has been inflammatory and overly political low-quality bait is enough evidence to suggest he's a pathetic troll who has nothing better to do than go to a random gaming forum and act like some Antifa Internet Tough Guy.

Seriously, your posts read like some strawman caricature of the far left.

If you're going to troll those "evil gamer neckbeards" maybe you should try harder next time, you petulant moron.

We know all the tricks. Your posts are some amateur hour trolling.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099499Lol ok neck beard. Good luck on your very long trip to the Middle, Dunce.

Lol, what is this danger-haired punk going on about? You sound like a raving lunatic.

If you're not going to make actual contributions to the conversation or actually talk about gaming, then just walk away or go back to RPG.net, Onyx Path Forums, ResetEra, or whatever internet cesspit you crawled out of.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099502Make me Bitch. Here or in person, I will always eat your lunch. Got it Virgin?

If anyone's a virgin, it's you buddy. Unlike you, I actually have a life outside of the internet and I have gotten laid before.

You're acting like some edgy fourteen year-old who just discovered punk rock.

I admit, I LOL'd at the "I will always eat your lunch" line.

You do realize that I've graduated from high school, right? Threatening to take my lunch money isn't going to work on me.

Quote from: Bren;1099496Is anyone still talking about GaryCon or has this thread (like far too many) just drifted into the knee-jerk name calling, sound bite spouting that beter belongs in Pundit's Forum?

Well I asked a week or three ago now if anything new had developed over it. Seems not? This thread would have drifted off into fallow-land by now.

Quote from: Bren;1099496Is anyone still talking about GaryCon or has this thread (like far too many) just drifted into the knee-jerk name calling, sound bite spouting that beter belongs in Pundit's Forum?

No, we got a troll who schleped in to play Zebra.

Quote from: Brad;1099501This made me laugh.

Trust me, not as hard as me and my fellow professors laugh!!

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099509Trust me, not as hard as me and my fellow professors laugh!!

If you want to be a professor, you're going to have to graduate from middle school first.

Even the criminally low standards for being a Gender Studies professor requires something more substantial than an Eighth Grade education.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099509Trust me, not as hard as me and my fellow professors laugh!!

Sure, pal.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099381Paul Rein Hagen is a NAZI and the dunces turn out in full force to defend him.

...who?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1099413those whackass "sexy poses to sell RPG books" ads using Gary's own daughter.

...what?

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099478Paul Riegel-Green. My oopsie!

...who?

Quote from: RandyB;1099492But an anarcho-Communist only has half of that to worry about - because there is no person to their left.

Which means survival depends on being more left than everyone else.

Suddenly certain things have come into horrible focus.

Shark driving a shark mecha!

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/62/b2/0262b25a39e1b5b7a392166b0c76ccd7.jpg)

I just wanted a flimsy excuse to post that pic.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099512If you want to be a professor, you're going to have to graduate from middle school first.

Even the criminally low standards for being a Gender Studies professor requires something more substantial than an Eighth Grade education.

Why would you want to know if I'm in middle school? Are you trying to groom me for sex?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1099518Shark driving a shark mecha!

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/62/b2/0262b25a39e1b5b7a392166b0c76ccd7.jpg)

I just wanted a flimsy excuse to post that pic.

Ok, that's pretty cool!

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1099518Shark driving a shark mecha!

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/62/b2/0262b25a39e1b5b7a392166b0c76ccd7.jpg)

I just wanted a flimsy excuse to post that pic.

That's the best thing I've seen in this thread. Where it's that pic from?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099504If anyone's a virgin, it's you buddy. Unlike you, I actually have a life outside of the internet and I have gotten laid before.

You're acting like some edgy fourteen year-old who just discovered punk rock.

I admit, I LOL'd at the "I will always eat your lunch" line.

You do realize that I've graduated from high school, right? Threatening to take my lunch money isn't going to work on me.

Trust me Virgin, when a woman finally lets you touch a real breast you'll forget all this edge lord drivel.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099503This has to be a joke. For Christ's sake, this post reads like some Antifa-themed copypasta.

The fact that this guy signed up recently and every single post he's made has been inflammatory and overly political low-quality bait is enough evidence to suggest he's a pathetic troll who has nothing better to do than go to a random gaming forum and act like some Antifa Internet Tough Guy.

Seriously, your posts read like some strawman caricature of the far left.

If you're going to troll those "evil gamer neckbeards" maybe you should try harder next time, you petulant moron.

We know all the tricks. Your posts are some amateur hour trolling.



Lol, what is this danger-haired punk going on about? You sound like a raving lunatic.

If you're not going to make actual contributions to the conversation or actually talk about gaming, then just walk away or go back to RPG.net, Onyx Path Forums, ResetEra, or whatever internet cesspit you crawled out of.

You are a half baked abortion. Nothing more.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1099516...who?



...what?



...who?



Which means survival depends on being more left than everyone else.

Suddenly certain things have come into horrible focus.

We? Um? Wha!

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099522Trust me Virgin, when a woman finally lets you touch a real breast you'll forget all this edge lord drivel.

If anyone's an edgelord, it's you pal.

Also, you seem fixated on the idea of me being a virgin (which I'm not, BTW) and it's coming across like you're heavily projecting your own failures and insecurities onto me.

Look, I'm sorry that no woman wants to fuck you. But that's not my fault nor anyone else on this forum, pal.

Maybe if you did something more productive with your life besides LARP as a professor and spew edgy nonsense on a role-playing game forum, you could actually find a date who is actually within your league (besides your right hand)

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099519Why would you want to know if I'm in middle school? Are you trying to groom me for sex?

Sorry, but I'm not interested in that type of stuff.

I'm thinking you are in middle school because you're spamming random ad hominem attacks at strangers on the internet and most of those insults are really juvenile and pathetic.

Bro, do you even play role-playing games?

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099523You are a half baked abortion. Nothing more.

Meh, I've been called worse things by better people.

Try harder.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1099521That's the best thing I've seen in this thread. Where it's that pic from?

I was googling random crap, and it popped up in my search. Probably looking for mecha pictures.

Alright, I think this thread has played out a long time ago.

Nobody should engage with the Anarcho-Communist "professor" who keeps shitting up the thread with low-quality bait and juvenile insults that wouldn't be out of place in the voice chat in a Call of Duty game. He stopped being amusing a while ago.

I reported him to Pundit and maybe he can take care of things.

Until then, don't feed the trolls.

Agreed and seconded with Doc Sammy.

Don't feed the trolls. As well I'm not getting paid to be a mental healthcare specialist for the so called "educator" and his fellow lunatics. Well guess I made the list for liking money and for being a capitalist.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099530Until then, don't feed the trolls.

That seems a bit hypocritical, or at least 'do what I say, not what I do'.  When you start by engaging the trolls and then you beg the moderators to make them stop, you look like you got butt hurt.  It would have looked much more mature to simply ignore him from the beginning.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099530Alright, I think this thread has played out a long time ago.

Nobody should engage with the Anarcho-Communist "professor" who keeps shitting up the thread with low-quality bait and juvenile insults that wouldn't be out of place in the voice chat in a Call of Duty game. He stopped being amusing a while ago.

I reported him to Pundit and maybe he can take care of things.

Until then, don't feed the trolls.

You rolled around in the shit with him and now you're saying he's the only one that stinks? If you don't want others to feed the trolls, start by being a better example.

...but what about Frank?

...and gaming?    ...and the memory of Gygax?

I don't care whether or not any of you are virgins.

What about gaming? ......And gaming conventions?
....and being fair and all that stuff?


- Ed C.

(...and just what the hell is an 'edge lord'?)

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1099536That seems a bit hypocritical, or at least 'do what I say, not what I do'.  When you start by engaging the trolls and then you beg the moderators to make them stop, you look like you got butt hurt.  It would have looked much more mature to simply ignore him from the beginning.

Sammy's not one to pass on some tasty bait.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1099545Sammy's not one to pass on some tasty bait.

Especially when it is offered by such a master baiter.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1099537You rolled around in the shit with him and now you're saying he's the only one that stinks? If you don't want others to feed the trolls, start by being a better example.

Eh, what can I say? It seemed fun to mess with him but I quickly realized it was a mistake.

After I realized he was a one-note troll, I figured I'd inform Pundit.

Why? Well, it's more than a matter of a troll stopped being entertaining but rather who the troll might be.

I think this guy is yet another sock puppet account of Daniel Fox, who has threatened Pundit directly.

That's why I reported him to Pundit. Even if he's not Fox, he's still an obvious troll that Pundit does not want to deal with.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1099536That seems a bit hypocritical, or at least 'do what I say, not what I do'.  When you start by engaging the trolls and then you beg the moderators to make them stop, you look like you got butt hurt.  It would have looked much more mature to simply ignore him from the beginning.

It seems hypocritical from an outside perspective now that I think about it and I admit I should have never taken the bait.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099500As an educator I can 100% promise you that we will destroy your world. We teach your children not only to wipe their asses with every value you hold dear, but to despise you for lying to them and wallowing in ignorance. There is not a drop of exaggeration in this.

....
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3743[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1099518Shark driving a shark mecha!

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/62/b2/0262b25a39e1b5b7a392166b0c76ccd7.jpg)

I just wanted a flimsy excuse to post that pic.

I just want you to know that it took less than a second before "Baby Shark" started playing in my head.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1099518Shark driving a shark mecha!

I just wanted a flimsy excuse to post that pic.

It was worth it just for the shark mecha.

Quote from: jeff37923;1099554I just want you to know that it took less than a second before "Baby Shark" started playing in my head.

Bastard, now its in my head too!

Quote from: Koltar;1099543...but what about Frank?

...and gaming?    ...and the memory of Gygax?

I don't care whether or not any of you are virgins.

What about gaming? ......And gaming conventions?
....and being fair and all that stuff?


- Ed C.

(...and just what the hell is an 'edge lord'?)

I think being fair has been progressively thrown out the window in favour of so called Social Justice. Which is anything but social or just.

Edgelord: So-called fans who seem to love to either angst or be as offensive as possible. Sometimes both. Sometimes just trolls in disguise.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1099545Sammy's not one to pass on some tasty bait.

Troll to troll combat.

On a more reasonable note, I think it's time to shut down and lock this thread.

Aside from blatant trolls and me being too dumb and impulsive to resist engaging them, this whole discussion seems to be old news and a moot point. GaryCon is over for the year and I think the Frank Mentzer controversies have already played out in full by now.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099527Meh, I've been called worse things by better people.

Try harder.

Man do I own you! Between your bleeding asshole and your vagina youre going to need two tampons this month,

Quote from: Omega;1099569Troll to troll combat.

Yeah...but Sammy is OUR troll and we love him.  Just imagine how boring it would be if he wasn't here! :D

...and wouldn't that be properly referred to as 'Troll on Troll action'? :p

After the 24 page shit show of alt light circle jerking and pseudo intellectual drivel by a small group of light weights its amazing that Samantha has the unmitigated gall to accuse anyone of being a troll. A label btw so cliche that it really just means, "Someone wrote something on the internet that I disagree with but am too stupid to refute so I will not try to shut them down with what I think is a panacea to all things that irritate me." And lets be frank, my commentary REALLY irritated Samantha and her sisters here. Glad to know I so got under your skin young lady...

Apparently Frank is still looking to cause trouble as he deals with his irrelevance. When Paul postd his "Happy 88, this is for you in the know." And faced the backlashed he asked for, Frank tried to admonish people for calling him out. What the Conservaturds dont get is that you are an already shrinking minority. Frank got ostracized because he was an unrepentant ass. And because he is a sexual harraser, general harasser and all around jackass I would expect him not to return to GaryCon 2020. We win!

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099580On a more reasonable note, I think...

No you dont.

Hmm, does anyone else find it funny that an avowed leftist is referring to me with a feminine name and is making a lot of misogynistic comments about me?

I find this irony hilarious. Also, did he just assume my gender? :D

He does realize that I'm LGBT and is probably higher up on the Progressive Stack than he is?

This guy is a pseudo-intellectual of epic proportions and he can't even SJW properly.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099596Hmm, does anyone else find it funny that an avowed leftist is referring to me with a feminine name and is making a lot of misogynistic comments about me?

I find this irony hilarious. Also, did he just assume my gender? :D

He does realize that I'm LGBT and is probably higher up on the Progressive Stack than he is?

This guy is a pseudo-intellectual of epic proportions and he can't even SJW properly.

Calm down Samantha....

Speaking of Frank Mentzer, do any of you guys have any cool gaming table stories about BECMI D&D?

Mentzer may be a senile geezer who needs a nurse to wrangle him at the conventions, but he was a fine game developer dammit!

This is now a Basic D&D general discussion thread. Enjoy!

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099600Speaking of Frank Mentzer, do any of you guys have any cool gaming table stories about BECMI D&D?

Mentzer may be a senile geezer who needs a nurse to wrangle him at the conventions, but he was a fine game developer dammit!

This is now a Basic D&D general discussion thread. Enjoy!

You left the high road long ago young lady....

Andy Ngo is a sniveling bitch like you. Play nazi games, win Nazi prizes!

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099478Paul Riegel-Green. My oopsie!

Who is Paul Riegel-Green? Is he a game designer? I've never heard the name.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099478Rein Hagen is just a garden variety douche bag.

I'm not a big WoD fan, but Rein*Hagen's work in our hobby is far more than garden variety.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099478Nationalism is the refuge of the simple minded. A country is an abstract entity without independent agency. There is no United States or any other place, they are legal fictions.

True in the abstract, but that's how the real world works.

You will live in some place. You should like the place where you live and want your place to thrive, and if you don't, you should move to some other place that you would like better. That's the core of healthy nationalism.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099489Go the fuck back to RPGnet and Onyx Path Forums.

PLEASE stop doing this.

TooBoCoup is 1000% welcome to be member and post whatever opinions he/she would like to post.

We don't have to agree with each other, but telling anyone their speech isn't welcome on a forum specifically founded to be a FREE SPEECH forum is utter bullshit.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099500As an educator I can 100% promise you that we will destroy your world. We teach your children not only to wipe their asses with every value you hold dear, but to despise you for lying to them and wallowing in ignorance. There is not a drop of exaggeration in this.

And this is why home-schooling is becoming popular with the middle and upper middle classes.

It used to be the religious extremists who were the only home schoolers, but more and more I'm hearing from educated and successful parents who are joining really interesting education collectives to avoid the public school indoctrination.

Quote from: Brad;1099501This made me laugh.

It shouldn't. These are the people who own academia. I'm an ex-special education teacher and I assure you that this attitude is COMMON, especially at the university level in Education graduate programs. TooBoCoup isn't joking.

Quote from: Bren;1099496Is anyone still talking about GaryCon or has this thread (like far too many) just drifted into the knee-jerk name calling, sound bite spouting that beter belongs in Pundit's Forum?

If you have to ask...

Quote from: Koltar;1099543(...and just what the hell is an 'edge lord'?)

A totally OP 3.5 prestige class?

Quote from: Shasarak;1099557It was worth it just for the shark mecha.

We must thank Frank!!

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099601Andy Ngo is a sniveling bitch like you. Play nazi games, win Nazi prizes!

I hope everyone's paying attention.

The Left's hatred of journalist Andy Ngo should be a wake-up call. It is truly amazing how a "person of color" and "LGBT" individual suddenly loses their humanity in the eyes of the Left if they dare to deviate from the script.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1099607Who is Paul Riegel-Green? Is he a game designer? I've never heard the name.


He's an edge lord douche and sub par human who the other edge lords and sub par people love to flock to.




I'm not a big WoD fan, but Rein*Hagen's work in our hobby is far more than garden variety.


That's a matter of opinion I suppose.




True in the abstract, but that's how the real world works.

You will live in some place. You should like the place where you live and want your place to thrive, and if you don't, you should move to some other place that you would like better. That's the core of healthy nationalism.

There is no healthy core of nationalism. Tribalism of any stripe is not good and nationalism is among the worst. Being happy about ones community is not the same. Funny enough, there seem to be many nationalists who stockpile weapons in order to murder their fellow citizens who disagree with them. That level of cognitive dissonance is quite remarkable.




PLEASE stop doing this.

TooBoCoup is 1000% welcome to be member and post whatever opinions he/she would like to post.

We don't have to agree with each other, but telling anyone their speech isn't welcome on a forum specifically founded to be a FREE SPEECH forum is utter bullshit.

Thank you. Sincerely appreciated. Apparently not everyone subscribes to this notion or got the memo. People like Samantha was a safe space so their itty bitty feelings don't get hurt.




And this is why home-schooling is becoming popular with the middle and upper middle classes.

It used to be the religious extremists who were the only home schoolers, but more and more I'm hearing from educated and successful parents who are joining really interesting education collectives to avoid the public school indoctrination.

A bit to unpack here. No one is indoctrinating anyone. Our role as educators is to educate, and that means to push back on the damage done by ignorant parents who have been brainwashing their children. I work in higher ed and do my job with great joy.



It shouldn't. These are the people who own academia. I'm an ex-special education teacher and I assure you that this attitude is COMMON, especially at the university level in Education graduate programs. TooBoCoup isn't joking.


I am definitely not joking. Higher ed is where the children of right wing extenuate welcomed to a new and wider world.




If you have to ask...




A totally OP 3.5 prestige class?

Very little prestige there




We must thank Frank!!




I hope everyone's paying attention.

The Left's hatred of journalist Andy Ngo should be a wake-up call. It is truly amazing how a "person of color" and "LGBT" individual suddenly loses their humanity in the eyes of the Left if they dare to deviate from the script.

Play Nazi games win Nazi prizes. Dox  people, lie and hide behind some superficial identity traits then put yourself in arms length of your victims earns a punch. At the least. Many Nazis were homosexual. Many Nazis were people if color. None of those things stopped them from Turing on both or earning a spot on the scaffolds.

Answers embedded above.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099596Hmm, does anyone else find it funny that an avowed leftist is referring to me with a feminine name and is making a lot of misogynistic comments about me?

I find this irony hilarious. Also, did he just assume my gender? :D

He does realize that I'm LGBT and is probably higher up on the Progressive Stack than he is?

This guy is a pseudo-intellectual of epic proportions and he can't even SJW properly.

Ignorant is as Ignorant does.

Though I like how SJW act like they are somehow the majority when if anything they are a minority that were given and still too much power by the media and companies.

Funny how some Leftists and SJWs want women to be treated with respect and given their due just as long as they listen and do what they are told.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1099607The Left's hatred of journalist Andy Ngo should be a wake-up call. It is truly amazing how a "person of color" and "LGBT" individual suddenly loses their humanity in the eyes of the Left if they dare to deviate from the script.

Which is why they are no better than the people they claim to fight against if not worse. Andy NGO is non-white and gay yet not woke enough for the SJWS so he loses his protection and his humanity apparently. The irony is the so called progressive are acting like regressive if not even worse. Shut up and do as your told, don't think or question or we are going to punch you in the face. We don't care if your non-white gay or trans. Then again their is pushback against that and it will get only worse for them. Though if it is one of the card carrying SJW who were attacked they would be crying foul and murder from the rooftops. Fucking bunch of irrelevant hypocrites is what they are imo.  

Quote from: Spinachcat;1099607LEASE stop doing this.

TooBoCoup is 1000% welcome to be member and post whatever opinions he/she would like to post.

We don't have to agree with each other, but telling anyone their speech isn't welcome on a forum specifically founded to be a FREE SPEECH forum is utter bullshit.

True yet we can ignore and call out the obvious Troll. While ignoring said troll the worst one can do is not pay them attention. Why through ignorance they were and still are irrelevant.

Quote from: sureshot;1099622Ignorant is as Ignorant does.

Though I like how SJW act like they are somehow the majority when if anything they are a minority that were given and still too much power by the media and companies.

Funny how some Leftist want women to be treated with respect and given their due just as long as they listen and do what they are told.

You're just fucking with us now. No one is as stupid as you come off...

Quote from: Spinachcat;1099607It shouldn't. These are the people who own academia. I'm an ex-special education teacher and I assure you that this attitude is COMMON, especially at the university level in Education graduate programs. TooBoCoup isn't joking.

Those morons are allowed to have whatever attitude they want, it's not going to affect me whatsoever. I'm in academia myself and encounter this bullshit all the time, and I know just how little power they truly wield. My wife is actually a professor in Education, in charge of a Masters program, and there are a lot more of the silent majority than you'd think. The vocal assholes like this clown think they're running crap, but the reality is they're accomplishing nothing and too fucking stupid to realize it.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099613Answers embedded above.

Bad form.

It's not difficult to add an end quote tag and respond to one piece, then add a new start quote tag to answer the other.  

It makes it more difficult to read your responses and it appears to credit them to someone else.

Quote from: Brad;1099630Those morons are allowed to have whatever attitude they want, it's not going to affect me whatsoever. I'm in academia myself and encounter this bullshit all the time, and I know just how little power they truly wield. My wife is actually a professor in Education, in charge of a Masters program, and there are a lot more of the silent majority than you'd think. The vocal assholes like this clown think they're running crap, but the reality is they're accomplishing nothing and too fucking stupid to realize it.

Sure you are Sonny, keep telling yourself that. And since you're the other Virgin here your 'wife' ie your left hand is as much an academic as I am an astronaut. Your works is being dismantled in front of you you Limp Dick and there ain't jack shit you can do about it.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099633Sure you are Sonny, keep telling yourself that. And since you're the other Virgin here your 'wife' ie your left hand is as much an academic as I am an astronaut. Your works is being dismantled in front of you you Limp Dick and there ain't jack shit you can do about it.

Let's be real here, does anybody actually care what this guy thinks?

If you think an openly gay Vietnamese-American is a Neo-Nazi and you talk like a fourteen-year old brat on Call of Duty while claiming to be a professor, your opinion is worth jack shit.

You have the right to express your opinion though, just as I have the right to call you an idiot for it.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I'm definitely getting some major incel vibes from TooBoCoup.

He's apparently very misogynistic despite being an avowed left-winger and thinks that calling someone a virgin is the most hurtful insult in the book.

Maybe he's one of those creepy male feminist hipster types who claim to be for gender equality but really just want to prey on women?

Or he's just some idiotic troll wanting attention. Or maybe he's both an idiot troll and a retarded Antifa punk?

I mean, nothing says that being an internet troll and being a commie chud are mutually exclusive.

You know, I haven't heard from Daniel Fox or David "Olivia" Hill in a while...

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099634Let's be real here, does anybody actually care what this guy thinks?

I don't, but I have no problem with him saying it. He really has the same rights to post as anyone else, and I have the same rights to put him on Ignore as anyone else. Doc, have you ever considered just using Ignore rather than jumping in headfirst and rolling around in the shit?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1099635I don't, but I have no problem with him saying it. He really has the same rights to post as anyone else, and I have the same rights to put him on Ignore as anyone else. Doc, have you ever considered just using Ignore rather than jumping in headfirst and rolling around in the shit?

I agree with you that he can say whatever he wants, but I do find his stupidity amusing and the urge to call him out on his dumb bullshit is very tempting.

Maybe I should put him on my ignore list since he's pretty much a one-note troll at this point.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's at home right now listening to punk rock and watching Marvel Cinematic Universe drivel while jacking off.

Whether or not he's whacking it to people giving him attention or if he's lusting over Captain Marvel is anyone's guess...



On an entirely unrelated note, does anybody here like listening to rock & roll?

Real rock music, not that whiny punk and alternative garbage.

[video=youtube;fJ1VPgFKQNc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ1VPgFKQNc[/youtube]

This is now a classic rock and old-school D&D appreciation thread.

We shall now resume our regularly scheduled programming of actually talking about RPG's.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1099635I don't, but I have no problem with him saying it. He really has the same rights to post as anyone else, and I have the same rights to put him on Ignore as anyone else.

Doesn't that mean that people can also express their opinion that troll boy should be banned? Anyone can put Sammy on Ignore as well.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1099639Doesn't that mean that people can also express their opinion that troll boy should be banned? Anyone can put Sammy on Ignore as well.

Sure.  Everyone can call for 'unpersoning' people they don't like.  It just tends not to be a popular sentiment here, regardless of which side of the aisle you're on.  I find it amusing that I keep hearing people on the right explaining that it is only people on the left who do that, and that's why their own hateful speech needs to be tolerated, but coming from the other side it's immediately clear that a defense of free speech is only a charade to demand a platform.  

What, exactly, is his bannable offense?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1099640Sure.  Everyone can call for 'unpersoning' people they don't like.  It just tends not to be a popular sentiment here, regardless of which side of the aisle you're on.  I find it amusing that I keep hearing people on the right explaining that it is only people on the left who do that, and that's why their own hateful speech needs to be tolerated, but coming from the other side it's immediately clear that a defense of free speech is only a charade to demand a platform.  

What, exactly, is his bannable offense?

I don't believe in unpersoning or banning this guy from the entire site just because he wants to troll us.

But if Pundit were to step in and lock the thread, I would not shed a tear. The actual topic of conversation is old news and played out.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099634Let's be real here, does anybody actually care what this guy thinks?

If you think an openly gay Vietnamese-American is a Neo-Nazi and you talk like a fourteen-year old brat on Call of Duty while claiming to be a professor, your opinion is worth jack shit.

You have the right to express your opinion though, just as I have the right to call you an idiot for it.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I'm definitely getting some major incel vibes from TooBoCoup.

He's apparently very misogynistic despite being an avowed left-winger and thinks that calling someone a virgin is the most hurtful insult in the book.

Maybe he's one of those creepy male feminist hipster types who claim to be for gender equality but really just want to prey on women?

Or he's just some idiotic troll wanting attention. Or maybe he's both an idiot troll and a retarded Antifa punk?

I mean, nothing says that being an internet troll and being a commie chud are mutually exclusive.

You know, I haven't heard from Daniel Fox or David "Olivia" Hill in a while...

Put your tampon back in young lady

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1099640I find it amusing that I keep hearing people on the right explaining that it is only people on the left who do that,

I find both sides can fall into hypocracy. When the rubber hits the road, principles are tough to stick to. I think that's the point.

Quoteand that's why their own hateful speech needs to be tolerated, but coming from the other side it's immediately clear that a defense of free speech is only a charade to demand a platform.  

What do you mean by hate speech?

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099481What I notice about the manly men of the alt light is that they are all super macho tough men until they see a picture of a few dead American soldiers. Then they cry foul. So it's really just some things that they are tough guys about.

What the hell are you talking about?  You have issues son.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099645Put your tampon back in young lady

You never left Junior high it seems.

Do you have any actual thoughts about Mr Mentzer or gaming?

- Ed C.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1099640their own hateful speech

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1099646What do you mean by hate speech?

hate·ful
 
adjective
arousing, deserving of, or filled with hatred.
"hateful letters of abuse that had come unsigned"
INFORMAL
very unpleasant.
"I don't have to stay in this hateful place"
synonyms:   detestable, horrible, horrid, unpleasant, awful, nasty, disagreeable, despicable, objectionable, insufferable, revolting, rotten, loathsome, abhorrent, abominable, damnable, execrable, odious, repugnant, repellent, repulsive, disgusting, distasteful, obnoxious, offensive, foul, vile, heinous; informal ghastly; informalbeastly, godawful, yucky; vulgar slangshitty; archaicloathly, disgustful
"that hateful arrogant old woman"

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1099518Shark driving a shark mecha!

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/62/b2/0262b25a39e1b5b7a392166b0c76ccd7.jpg)

I just wanted a flimsy excuse to post that pic.

How did you get a pic of SHARK (https://www.therpgsite.com/member.php?206-SHARK) at work?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1099640Sure.  Everyone can call for 'unpersoning' people they don't like.  It just tends not to be a popular sentiment here, regardless of which side of the aisle you're on.  I find it amusing that I keep hearing people on the right explaining that it is only people on the left who do that, and that's why their own hateful speech needs to be tolerated, but coming from the other side it's immediately clear that a defense of free speech is only a charade to demand a platform.  

What, exactly, is his bannable offense?

Closest I would guess would be:

Quote from: The Rules"While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW)."

That said, I don't want him banned.  I just wish he'd actually start contributing something useful to the site.  You know, post about gaming instead of tossing internet tough-guy insults at Doc.  The entirety of his brief time here has been shit-posting in a thread that hadn't been touched in 2 months.  If he wants to waste time shooting fish in a barrel that's fine but I'd rather he start a thread and tell me why game X sucks or something.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1099639Doesn't that mean that people can also express their opinion that troll boy should be banned? Anyone can put Sammy on Ignore as well.

Sure, but banning someone impacts the other person's ability to express themself while putting someone on Ignore only impacts yourself. It's the difference between putting noise-cancelling headphones on your own ears vs forcefully gagging someone when you don't like what they are saying. Sure, there might be an impulse for the latter, but the former doesn't step on anyone's expression (especially since, with Ignore, these are effectively invisible headphones so the other can keep screeching away at you while you blissfully go on not hearing their nonsense).

And yes, anyone can Ignore Sammy too. I admit I have been tempted to do so, but he occasionally posts some things I find interesting.

Quote from: rgalex;1099657Closest I would guess would be: disrupting topics without contributing to them

Quote from: rgalex;1099657The entirety of his brief time here has been shit-posting in a thread that hadn't been touched in 2 months.

If you consider the topic to have been dead, I don't think he can also be accused of disrupting the conversation.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1099661Sure, but banning someone impacts the other person's ability to express themself while putting someone on Ignore only impacts yourself. It's the difference between putting noise-cancelling headphones on your own ears vs forcefully gagging someone when you don't like what they are saying. Sure, there might be an impulse for the latter, but the former doesn't step on anyone's expression (especially since, with Ignore, these are effectively invisible headphones so the other can keep screeching away at you while you blissfully go on not hearing their nonsense).

And yes, anyone can Ignore Sammy too. I admit I have been tempted to do so, but he occasionally posts some things I find interesting.

Pretty much what this guy said.

And HappyDaze, I do apologize for my past indiscretions. I do want to post more interesting things and be more of an actually productive poster.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1099631Bad form.

It's not difficult to add an end quote tag and respond to one piece, then add a new start quote tag to answer the other.  

It makes it more difficult to read your responses and it appears to credit them to someone else.

Agreed, but I wasnt sure how to do it otherwise. Cheers for the tip!

Quote from: Koltar;1099653You never left Junior high it seems.

Do you have any actual thoughts about Mr Mentzer or gaming?

- Ed C.

I do but not to an obvious asshole. If you had asked in a different manner then perhaps I do.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099634Let's be real here, does anybody actually care what this guy thinks?

If you think an openly gay Vietnamese-American is a Neo-Nazi and you talk like a fourteen-year old brat on Call of Duty while claiming to be a professor, your opinion is worth jack shit.

You have the right to express your opinion though, just as I have the right to call you an idiot for it.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I'm definitely getting some major incel vibes from TooBoCoup.

He's apparently very misogynistic despite being an avowed left-winger and thinks that calling someone a virgin is the most hurtful insult in the book.

Maybe he's one of those creepy male feminist hipster types who claim to be for gender equality but really just want to prey on women?

Or he's just some idiotic troll wanting attention. Or maybe he's both an idiot troll and a retarded Antifa punk?

I mean, nothing says that being an internet troll and being a commie chud are mutually exclusive.

You know, I haven't heard from Daniel Fox or David "Olivia" Hill in a while...

Clearly you care very much or you wouldnt spend so much time and butt hurt trying to report me to the hall monitor, ban me, outclass me, projecting your own obvious shortcomings on me, etc. i know the truth hurts which is why you have such an outsized reaction compared to the other alt right ladies here.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1099640Sure.  Everyone can call for 'unpersoning' people they don't like.  It just tends not to be a popular sentiment here, regardless of which side of the aisle you're on.  I find it amusing that I keep hearing people on the right explaining that it is only people on the left who do that, and that's why their own hateful speech needs to be tolerated, but coming from the other side it's immediately clear that a defense of free speech is only a charade to demand a platform.  

What, exactly, is his bannable offense?

This^

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099669Fap Fap Fap Fap

Grown-ups are trying to have an actual conversation here. If you want to fantasize about being a professor while masturbating to pictures of Brie Larson, do it in your bedroom.

And for God's sake, close the goddamn door this time!

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099667Agreed, but I wasnt sure how to do it otherwise. Cheers for the tip!

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099668I do but not to an obvious asshole. If you had asked in a different manner then perhaps I do.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099669Clearly you care very much or you wouldnt spend so much time and butt hurt trying to report me to the hall monitor, ban me, outclass me, projecting your own obvious shortcomings on me, etc. i know the truth hurts which is why you have such an outsized reaction compared to the other alt right ladies here.

Quote from: TooBoCoup;1099670This^

To the right of the 'reply with quote' button there is another button that looks like a quote with the plus sign (+).  This is 'multi-quote'.  You can click on multiple responses that you wish you respond to and they'll all be included in your response.  Each time you select one, a check will appear next to the post.  When you've selected all of the ones you wish to respond to, you can click 'reply with quote' and they'll all appear in your response (as yours do here).

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099672Grown-ups are trying to have an actual conversation here. If you want to fantasize about being a professor while masturbating to pictures of Brie Larson, do it in your bedroom.

And for God's sake, close the goddamn door!

I thought you were going to avoid taking the bait?  Restating someone's position as a direct quote (ie, fap fap fap fap) is uncalled for and beneath even you.

(Sorry for the double post; Doc Sammy responded while I was writing my other response).

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1099676I thought you were going to avoid taking the bait?  Restating someone's position as a direct quote (ie, fap fap fap fap) is uncalled for and beneath even you.

(Sorry for the double post; Doc Sammy responded while I was writing my other response).

Hey, at this point I think we should take the bait and fight fire with fire.

It's obvious by now he has no interest in being an actual productive poster on this forum. If he's gonna try to post his low quality bait, I say let's have fun with it and fuck with him back.

Either he will get frustrated and fuck off, or Pundit will step in and lock this now irrelevant and meaningless thread

If there was a possibility he may have had interest in being an actual forum member, I would have slacked off for good earlier.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099677Hey, at this point I think we should take the bait and fight fire with fire.

Since it worked so well the first time.  :)  

If you think someone is a troll, your best response is to simply ignore them.  What do you win if you 'win'?  

If you don't think the person is a troll, and you think they're subject to well-formulated arguments, why resort to ad hominem attacks?

I think TooBoCoup's attacks were at least somewhat amusing.  Stylistically, they are not like anything else I've seen on this site.  Specifically, 'relax Princess' got a chuckle from me.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1099678Since it worked so well the first time.  :)  

If you think someone is a troll, your best response is to simply ignore them.  What do you win if you 'win'?  

If you don't think the person is a troll, and you think they're subject to well-formulated arguments, why resort to ad hominem attacks?

I think TooBoCoup's attacks were at least somewhat amusing.  Stylistically, they are not like anything else I've seen on this site.  Specifically, 'relax Princess' got a chuckle from me.

Fair point, the Princess retort was mildly amusing given my Sailor Moon avatar.

Alright, I'll take my leave from this thread and either TooBoCoup will tire himself out and get bored, or Pundit will step in. Either way, I don't want to be around when Pundit steps into this zombie of a thread, so I'm outta here!

Someone PM me if this thread ever gets back on topic. Otherwise Im ignoring this ongoing de-rail.

Quote from: Brad;1099630I'm in academia myself and encounter this bullshit all the time, and I know just how little power they truly wield. My wife is actually a professor in Education, in charge of a Masters program, and there are a lot more of the silent majority than you'd think.

The problem with the Silent Majority is everyone believes they are on their side.

As the Silent Majority makes no pushback, what's the effective real world difference between silent disagreement and silent acceptance?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1099634You have the right to express your opinion though, just as I have the right to call you an idiot for it.

EXACTLY!!!

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1099639Doesn't that mean that people can also express their opinion that troll boy should be banned? Anyone can put Sammy on Ignore as well.

I am loathe to say some opinions should not be expressed, but banning shouldn't be a thing on a free speech forum unless the poster is significantly breaking forum rules.

If being a douchenozzle who posts off-topic comments becomes a bannable offense, then I better be one of the first targets.

Quote from: Koltar;1099653You never left Junior high it seems.

I'd argue the majority of adults haven't matured past high school.

Everyone stop posting off-topic political posts on this thread.

Doc Sammy and TooBoCoup, this is your only warning: post off-topic on any thread in the main forum and you'll be banned.