I also don't really see how Frank Mentzer has anything to do with the OSR. The handful of products Eldritch Entertainment produced were statted system neutrally.  And most of Frog God's output are simply either 5e (the new stuff they put out) or 3e products (the stuff they regurgitate every few years), re-statted for S&W, often badly. The only genuine OSR product they've produced is The Black Monastery, and even that was originally produced back in the day, not commissioned as a modern day OSR product.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1082941From reports, Garycon is not an OSR convention, but a convention with a large OSR element.  

GameDaddy, was this year's increase in attendance among the OSR side or the 5e/PF OrgPlay side?

Both... Last years attendance was just over 1,700, and we hit 2,500 before Friday! this year. 5e and Pathfinder both sold out all of their organized play events. On Friday and Saturday for 5e, Their was only one open table in the 5e room, and same deal for Pathfinder events except there was no tables open where dedicated Paizo folk were running games. There were plenty of off grid 5e and PF games as well. There are a lot of peopel now at GaryCon that simply get together with their favorite gaming buddies every year and run games in their private suites. Both Stefano Pokorny and Joe Manganiello took huge suites and were running games all weekend long. With Stefano, I think he only moves out after Monday morning when the LGCC staff come to clean out his room. I know his game was running on Sunday night, because I brought event guests in that had become disoriented, and his beautiful Dwarven Forge tebletop game was in full swing late Sunday right before I departed. Pretty sure he did those big Minis Kickstarters just so he would have enough money so that he could game in style at all the shows he goes to.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083037There are a lot of peopel now at GaryCon that simply get together with their favorite gaming buddies every year and run games in their private suites.

That sounds like the most appealing element, for me. I don't care about 5e or Pathfinder (FWIW, personally, I don't think of them as being "OSR" games), but I'm all for getting together with buddies and playing original D&D or 1e AD&D or Chainmail or Field of Glory, et cetera.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083037There are a lot of peopel now at GaryCon that simply get together with their favorite gaming buddies every year and run games in their private suites

Yeah, I've been attending Gary Con since 2011 and it's always been the case that people run private, off-grid games. Back at the original location, when the convention was much, much smaller and not commercialized (no Pathfinder Society, no Adventurers League, for example), these games mainly happened in the common areas (restaurant, bar). I really miss those days. Now, at the new location, with big crowds (mainly driven by "organized" play) creating noisy, jam-packed space with very limited open gaming tables, these off-grid games have migrated into the suites (and some games that would have been on-grid before are now run off-grid there because of the crowding and noise). My group of friends alone typically has 2-3 suites where we run invite only, off-grid games.

In his latest vlog Tim Kask says that Wizards of the Coast was the motivating force behind Frank's removal as Guest of Honor. Which backs up what many suggested earlier; despite Luke's denial here that anyone 'strong-armed' him. I think Luke, Tim, Frank, and even Wizards of the Coast themselves have fallen victim to the wave of relational aggression sweeping the hobby recently. They probably don't even realise what's happening or the part they are playing in it. Which is a common feature of relational aggression. You are 'strong-armed' in a relational aggression sense when someone threatens to cut ties with you if you don't do what they want. This is exactly what the Wizards did to Luke.

Tim's oblivious stance is particularly sad to see given that he's most likely the next target; along with Len Lakofka. I remember reading an article where he, Gary Gygax, and Len Lakofka were depicted as hung in effigy; Lakofka is expecting to be Guest of Honor next year.

Also it was sad to see the pile-on on Frank from all corners of the hobby. I saw many instances of people dis-regarding their own in-person experience at Frank's games or his house because someone they've never met or even heard of made an (almost certainly wildly exaggerated if not totally unfounded) accusation against him.

Quote from: mightybrain;1083249In his latest vlog Tim Kask says that Wizards of the Coast was the motivating force behind Frank's removal as Guest of Honor.

Is there evidence?

It would not surprise me as WotC is a shitbag company full of shitbags, but that's a big statement to drop, especially as it would make Luke look like a clown.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1083306Is there evidence?

It would not surprise me as WotC is a shitbag company full of shitbags, but that's a big statement to drop, especially as it would make Luke look like a clown.

This. No offense to user "mightybrain", but Tim Kask is not a reliable source of information - and that's putting things mildly.

It's normal that WotC or Hasbro are handing out "code of conduct"-like documents to their affiliates and sponsored bodies. It's also very possible that WotC got tired of the ongoing drama that came with third-party D&D publishers behaving extremely unprofessionally, as has evidently happened, and advised their affiliates to distance themselves from people who are considered problematic or controversial. Which is certainly not "friendly", but somewhat understandable given that not all the drama of the last few years was completely neglectable.

Now, Mr Kask having to offer deeper insights onto the matter is what I evidently doubt:

First, because he is likely only citing second- or third-hand information; in other words, he is gossiping. Or is he REALLY in a position where he gets personally handed internal memos from GaryCon, from Hasbro's affiliate program, or, well, from anyone?

Second, because this is more of the same self-congratulatory baloney that we've all become accustomed to hear from the old TSR/1e/Lake Geneva clique:



It's not that they are apparently absolutely insufferable to work with, and that they can get nothing done on their own. It's CONSPIRACEE! Always.

Frank makes an ass of himself on DF - somebody must have hacked his computer.

Kask gets stepped over for guest-of-honor duties - it's not he has said so much utterly disgusting shit over the years that noone in their right mind will have him in any sort of representative position. It's that the invisible devil-claw of Hasbro pushed him out! Because, by default, that makes him important!


I'm not writing this out of spite, or to mock Kask after I defended Frank with so much fervor. But this utter nonsense isn't helping anybody; the question is, how we get everybody back to the same gaming table, and leave all the crazytalk behind?

Quote from: Rafael;1083323I'm not writing this out of spite, or to mock Kask after I defended Frank with so much fervor. But this utter nonsense isn't helping anybody; the question is, how we get everybody back to the same gaming table, and leave all the crazytalk behind?

We all sit around and play friendly and fun games together, like we did when we were young. This is what we wanted and what we did this year at GaryCon, and even so, some SJW folks with torches and pitchforks went after Steve Jackson, who privately supports the LGBT community, doing a lot more for them, supporting their equal rights under the constitution, and making opportunities available to, and for them. The ignorant SJW know about none of this though.

Quote from: Rafael;1083323Now, Mr Kask having to offer deeper insights onto the matter is what I evidently doubt:

First, because he is likely only citing second- or third-hand information; in other words, he is gossiping. Or is he REALLY in a position where he gets personally handed internal memos from GaryCon, from Hasbro's affiliate program, or, well, from anyone?

He might have personal connections to people in a position to know. Yes, he's possibly gossiping...or not. You and I don't have any deeper info either, so if he's gossiping, we're likely doing the same.

Quote from: Rafael;1083323Second, because this is more of the same self-congratulatory baloney that we've all become accustomed to hear from the old TSR/1e/Lake Geneva clique:

It's not that they are apparently absolutely insufferable to work with, and that they can get nothing done on their own. It's CONSPIRACEE! Always.

Frank makes an ass of himself on DF - somebody must have hacked his computer.

Kask gets stepped over for guest-of-honor duties - it's not he has said so much utterly disgusting shit over the years that noone in their right mind will have him in any sort of representative position. It's that the invisible devil-claw of Hasbro pushed him out! Because, by default, that makes him important!

I'd say the "clique" has plenty of reasons to self-congratulate. I don't know if you noticed, but they did take part in inventing the hobby.

Is it elegant? Not really, but I can hardly fault them for being proud of what they helped Gygax achieve.

Now, as relating to their more recent achievements, or lack thereof, I concur. They seem to be out of touch with modern production methods and schedules, and can't seem to deliver on promises. They probably would do better allowing themselves to be remembered as they once were instead of tarnishing their former reputation.

Quote from: Rafael;1083323I'm not writing this out of spite, or to mock Kask after I defended Frank with so much fervor. But this utter nonsense isn't helping anybody; the question is, how we get everybody back to the same gaming table, and leave all the crazytalk behind?

Oh, I can clearly see from your previous statements you didn't intend to mock Kask or anyone else. After all, who in their right mind would confuse language like that with a steady drip of venom? /s

With respect to the matter of coming back to our senses, I guess things will get worse before they get better. At a certain point in the hopefully not-too-distant future, something will break the spell and we will be released from the Geas.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083340We all sit around and play friendly and fun games together, like we did when we were young.

This.

Now, as to the SJW thing - was there another incident, a manifestation, whatever, or is it just the usual "young adults furiously twittering"? - As to Bill Webb's role in the industry, I don't know enough about the case to form a clear opinion. In his place, if there is any truth to the accusations against him, I would probably do a lot of penance. - That said, if there is any truth to the accusations against him, this is a police case, and not a social media case. If alleged witnesses and victims can speak on Twitter, then they can speak in court.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1083430They probably would do better allowing themselves to be remembered as they once were instead of tarnishing their former reputation.

I don't think you and I are in disagreement on this matter. I'm not getting myself involved in this debate because I would be generally critical of the people we mentioned; it's because I think that the community needs to remain open to them despite the events of the last ten years.

QuoteOh, I can clearly see from your previous statements you didn't intend to mock Kask or anyone else. After all, who in their right mind would confuse language like that with a steady drip of venom? /s

...But we need to call out them on the most obvious bullshit. Tim Kask, who is single-handedly responsible for the whole St Paul group quitting our part of the web through the disrespectful and damaging comments he made in the wake of Dave Arneson's illness and death in 2007/2008, is out there again, telling tall tales and playing the role of the divider. That's not cool.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1083430With respect to the matter of coming back to our senses, I guess things will get worse before they get better. At a certain point in the hopefully not-too-distant future, something will break the spell and we will be released from the Geas.

...Because, as you say, this makes things worse. We need a sense of unity in our community if we want to be more than "wardens in a museum", ten years from now. The tragedy of stuff like the Mentzer meltdown, or of similar incidents is that they excerpt (English?) us from further positive contributions that those people might still be able to make. - And as things are looking now, with Mentzer, Kask and others more or less openly disavowing GaryCon, and Gail Gygax displaying on Facebook how she's apparently having world's longest-lasting stroke it doesn't look like we're on our way to win those possible contributions back, any time soon.

So, what would be sorely needed would be to take the edge of this entire topic - and, to return to the original topic of this thread, that's why I consider Luke's behavior towards Mentzer so profoundly damaging. It drives people apart that under normal circumstances shouldn't be competing with one another.

Quote from: Rafael;1083323But this utter nonsense isn't helping anybody; the question is, how we get everybody back to the same gaming table, and leave all the crazytalk behind?

We all need to snort some killer nyborg!

[video=youtube;sj8W5LhvMtQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj8W5LhvMtQ[/youtube]

Quote from: Rafael;1083497We need a sense of unity in our community if we want to be more than "wardens in a museum", ten years from now.

I'm cool with Wardens in the Museum.

10 years is a long time. Who knows what will be left our hobby by then? Or what form most play will take?

However, there will always be a small audience who want to try "old games" and be open to enjoying them for what they are.

Quote from: Rafael;1083497I don't think you and I are in disagreement on this matter. I'm not getting myself involved in this debate because I would be generally critical of the people we mentioned; it's because I think that the community needs to remain open to them despite the events of the last ten years.

Yes, I do believe we agree on this.

Quote from: Rafael;1083497...But we need to call out them on the most obvious bullshit. Tim Kask, who is single-handedly responsible for the whole St Paul group quitting our part of the web through the disrespectful and damaging comments he made in the wake of Dave Arneson's illness and death in 2007/2008, is out there again, telling tall tales and playing the role of the divider. That's not cool.

As far as I can tell, Kask seems to have a very strong dislike of Arneson because of a perceived attempt to inflate Arneson's importance in the creation of D&D. Kask has repeatedly said he thinks Arneson had great ideas, and did a great deal towards developing the brainstorming part of the design process, but had little to no ability to actually produce material to be published. I think this stems from the fact that Kask was the editor, and therefore handled all the rough material that was handed to him with the instructions to "make this printable and sellable", which colored his perceptions indelibly.

Now, if he was right on that or not is debatable, and probably not something that can be completely decided either way.

As for his behavior, I completely agree, it was uncalled for, specially given the circumstances (Arneson passing). I'm generally of the opinion that disparaging someone right after their death is a douche move, and you should remain quiet until enough time has passed to allow for people to absorb the impact (that is, if you have such strong feelings that you really want to say something bad about the person). Regarding the situation as it's developing now, I think everyone is out of their depth. Nobody was really prepared for this cultural wave that hit us in the last half-decade or so, and people react with their gut most of the time. That's why responses to accusations run the gamut from abject surrender to defiant confrontation. I think that's one of the reasons why people are putting their feet in their proverbial mouths so frequently.

Quote from: Rafael;1083497...Because, as you say, this makes things worse. We need a sense of unity in our community if we want to be more than "wardens in a museum", ten years from now. The tragedy of stuff like the Mentzer meltdown, or of similar incidents is that they excerpt (English?) us from further positive contributions that those people might still be able to make. - And as things are looking now, with Mentzer, Kask and others more or less openly disavowing GaryCon, and Gail Gygax displaying on Facebook how she's apparently having world's longest-lasting stroke it doesn't look like we're on our way to win those possible contributions back, any time soon.

So, what would be sorely needed would be to take the edge of this entire topic - and, to return to the original topic of this thread, that's why I consider Luke's behavior towards Mentzer so profoundly damaging. It drives people apart that under normal circumstances shouldn't be competing with one another.

As I said above, people don't know how to properly react. Nobody even knows what proper means anymore. Like S'Mon said in another thread, Webb drunkenly hit on someone, but that's hardly Weinstein-level stuff. Should the punishment be the same? Some people certainly seem to think so, and are campaigning to make it happen.

Quote from: Rafael;1083497with Mentzer, Kask and others more or less openly disavowing GaryCon

I think you've misunderstood something somewhere. Neither Frank nor Tim have disavowed GaryCon. Frank has played the victim card and pointed his finger at the "suits" by which I assume he means Wizards of the Coast. Tim on the other hand has sided with Luke, GaryCon, and Wizards of the Coast which he sees as part of cleaning up the hobby.

Tim has also flagellated himself over his own role in being an "inadvertent gatekeeper." It's true, he has shot his mouth of at times. But as for being a gatekeeper I think his role pales into insignificance next to the 'you shall not pass' edicts from Wizards of the Coast.

Quote from: mightybrain;1083805I think you've misunderstood something somewhere. Neither Frank nor Tim have disavowed GaryCon. Frank has played the victim card and pointed his finger at the "suits" by which I assume he means Wizards of the Coast. Tim on the other hand has sided with Luke, GaryCon, and Wizards of the Coast which he sees as part of cleaning up the hobby.

I am glad if I'm wrong about this, because this is not what I want. My impression was that people were pretty miffed, though.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1083529As I said above, people don't know how to properly react. Nobody even knows what proper means anymore. Like S'Mon said in another thread, Webb drunkenly hit on someone, but that's hardly Weinstein-level stuff. Should the punishment be the same? Some people certainly seem to think so, and are campaigning to make it happen.

As noted in the other thread, I've (re-) introduced my own, charming self on RPGNet in the meantime. Still can't really say anything about the incident itself, but, holy crap, if that is the usual behavior for some people to show in cases like this, then the community has a serious problem. Kids and psychos taking over a topic that, well, shouldn't be for kids and psycho to take over, bad. Very bad, really.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1083503We all need to snort some killer nyborg!

...Is probably best. :cool:

Seriously, though, I hope that oldschool D&D has another generation to go. People continue drift towards it. I hope it can keep that energy, despite all the gonzo sideshow drama.

This was posted on Frank's Facebook page. Apparently he has made a complaint to his bureau of consumer protection and Luke has responded. It seems this feud goes way deeper than has been publicly posted until now.

Quote5/10/2019
Luke Gygax
Good Omen Productions, LLC
3157 W. Barry Rd
Lake Geneva, WI 53147

Ms. Kathi Ashmore
Bureau of Consumer Protection
2811 Agriculture Dr
Madison, WI 53708-8911

Dear Ms. Ashmore,

I am responding to the complaint you addressed to Good Omen Productions from Frank Mentzer (File 93796) dated May 7, 2019. Mr. Mentzer has misrepresented the facts of the matter and I will explain and document the situation for you in this letter. Allow me to explain a little about what the company does. The company operates an annual memorial convention held in honor of Gary Gygax, my father and the creator of the game Dungeons and Dragons. Mr. Mentzer was a longtime friend of my father's and worked for him in the early 1980's. Mr. Mentzer was invited as a Guest to Gary Con for the past several years out of respect for his friendship with my father and his contributions to the industry in the early 1980s.

First of all I want to acknowledge the factual portions of what Mr. Mentzer stated. We never had a contract nor promise of any payment to him. He was invited to attend Gary Con as a Guest and to run some tabletop games. There was no offer or promise of any payment. He paid the company no money, nor did we offer or promise any payment to him. Mr. Mentzer was one of approximately sixty Guests initially invited to Gary Con 2019, and he was scheduled to run 5 or 6 events, table top game sessions, out of the over 1600 scheduled events. Events are run by attendees and Guests alike during the convention. So he was not in a unique position nor did his attendance represent a significant part of the activities at the convention.

It was determined that Mr. Mentzer was not a suitable Guest during the latter part of 2018. I attempted to talk to him by phone, as we have known one another for many years, to inform him of the decision to remove him as a Guest. The issue began after several people including other Guests, attendees and vendors expressed concern over Mr. Mentzer being invited as a Guest at Gary Con 2019. I investigated their concerns and it was determined that his actions where not a good representation of the convention as they were in violation of our published policies. There were three main pieces of information that led to this determination; Mr. Mentzer's online interactions with a fellow industry professional named Jessica Price (Exhibit A), Mr. Mentzer's online interactions with a forum member on Dragonsfoot Forum (Exhibit B) and my conversation with my sister, who is also a member of the company, where she reported to me that Mr. Mentzer had told her in a public setting at a previous Gary Con "to get out of here, you are making me horny." My sister was with her son at the time and felt insulted, but out of respect for Mr. Mentzer, my father's longtime friend, and a desire not to escalate the situation, she didn't report it when it happened. These kind of actions don't represent our company and are against the company's policies (Exhibit C). Two of these items are searchable on the internet by searching "Frank Mentzer misconduct". The last item was personally conveyed to me and isn't a matter of public information.

I was finally able to contact Mr. Mentzer by phone in February after repeated attempts, and informed him that he would not be listed as a Guest. I did however express to him clearly that he was able to attend the convention and he was not banned. This offer was made out of respect to his personal friendship with my father and the years of acquaintanceship with the family. Further the convention would offer him a complimentary badge, shared lodging, and allow him to run games as planned. During that phone call, Mr. Mentzer spoke to me harshly, told me that he would not attend and hung up the phone on me. He sent a text to me following the call that mischaracterized the situation and accused me of chasing big bucks. I replied to him expressing that he was welcome to attend and that this was not a personal attack on him (Exhibit D).

Mr. Mentzer emailed me the next day stating that I had declared war and joined his enemies. He threatened to make false statements publicly to discredit my family and the company. He also made some connection to a private party that he was holding at his residence. The email seemed out of context and was very concerning to me. I asked him to cease communications with me (Exhibit E). It was after these actions from Mr. Mentzer that I decided to make a public statement about removing him as a Guest. I didn't want a false narrative to be circulated. I posted a statement on our website saying Frank was no longer a Guest at Gary Con due to his actions that are not in alignment with our policies (Exhibit F).

Mr. Mentzer continued to contact me indirectly by using the customer service email for Gary Con (Exhibit G) and having mutual friends call me. I did agree to hear what Mr. Mentzer wanted to say. He sent me an email that once again seemed out of context and not based in reality. He claimed that I had attacked him and was considered a traitor publicly. Further he demanded that I apologize to him, admit I am wrong and reinstate him as a Guest amongst other things (Exhibit H). I didn't respond to him. He continued to contact me by email for the months demanding that I fix this problem. When I didn't respond Mr. Mentzer stated he would contact the company and state oversight agencies about my worldwide libels (Exhibit I). Mr. Mentzer contacted the Lake Geneva Chamber of Commerce and Walworth County Administrator to complain that I had engaged in a bad transaction and made false statements about him. I contacted the Walworth County Administrator by phone to discuss the situation. Mr. Bretl stated that this wasn't under his purview and that he wouldn't take any action.
Mr. Mentzer has no grounds for his complaint. I have provided the information to you in order to keep the company's reputation protected.

I have no desire to communicate with Mr. Mentzer as a member of the company nor on a private person. His actions and consistent emails are a harassment, and his attempts to damage the business appear to be founded in some personal grudge. For those reasons I am not copying Mr. Mentzer in my response. Thank you for your time in this matter.

Respectfully Submitted,
Luke Gygax
Member
Good Omen Productions, LLC