Quote from: jhkimYeah, his story about "I was hacked" changed to "I had a house guest that I refuse to dox" in the comments, when confronted by Paul Stuart Tucker. I find it amazing that anyone actually buys that explanation.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1077753Wait, are we talking about Frank or Zak?

That was about Frank Mentzer. He posted a defense on his Facebook page, but was then confronted about it by Paul Tucker and amended his story.

Quote from: mightybrain;1077041Frank responds:
https://www.facebook.com/frank.mentzer/posts/2166010183478721

I think the initial FB message was edited now to remove a reference to being hacked. Sadly, I did not screenshot the original message.

Quote from: jhkim;1077757Sadly, I did not screenshot the original message.

The message was captured on Tenkar's Tavern, apparently 2 hrs after posting:
https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2019/02/frank-mentzer-shares-on-facebook-truth.html

And it says the same, "unauthorized use of my desktop computer."

Quote from: mightybrain;1077762The message was captured on Tenkar's Tavern, apparently 2 hrs after posting:
https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2019/02/frank-mentzer-shares-on-facebook-truth.html

And it says the same, "unauthorized use of my desktop computer."

Fair enough. I may have misremembered about the phrasing (or he edited it within the first two hours). Regardless of that, though - having an unnamed house guest write messages in your name to frame you - still seems like a stretch to me. Others in the Tenkar's Tavern felt similarly, like this comment:

QuoteTheShadowKnowsFebruary 28, 2019 at 8:17 PM

As I pointed out when this first came up a little over a year ago, Mentzer is demonstrably lying about the PM he sent EotB.

In the obnoxious "Prince" post on DF, which he concedes making, Mentzer refers to EotB as "Bote". A search of Dragonsfoot doesn't reveal any other instance where he does so. The PM also refers to EotB as "Bote", which would make sense if the "hacker" were trying to frame Mentzer - except that, according to the time stamps, the PM was sent BEFORE the public post.

Since Mentzer also claimed (on a Tenkar's Tavern thread) that he hadn't seen the PM until EotB posted it publicly, and since it belies credulity that he and the "hacker" would just happen to use the exact same odd term coincidentally at almost the same time, I don't see any other possibility except: Mentzer wrote both. And then lied about it for over a year.

While I think it is Improbable (not Impossible, but highly unlikely) Frank Mentzer got hacked, and his apparent actions likely deserved his banishment, his FB message does have one point people are ignoring.

Frank was already banned from DF, and that could have ended it.  However, this happened.

QuoteThe recipient joined Dragonsfoot moderators...to make their accusations public at another website (Knights & Knaves Alehouse, now a locked NSFW thread). Their tales have been widely circulated...

Regardless of the truth of this, does anybody find the fact that this was done a poor reflection on the mods for both sites.  The issue was already dealt with, but EOTB decided to "out" what was handled privately.  I think this was an escalation that didn't need to happen, and I was disappointed that the mods on both sites did nothing...they could have immediately taken down the post and disciplined the poster.  If I was a mod and that happened, I probably would have banned EOTB from Dragonsfoot for escalating the situation elsewhere.  The big issue to me was the same mods on DF were also on KKA, and that leads to concerns about favoritism.  Do I think that there was a planned conspiracy--no.  Do I think there was some favoritism towards a prolific poster?  Yes.  It's good that they didn't show favoritism towards a high profile named creator, but I feel they could have similarly not shown favoritism towards a prolific poster on the forums.  (I think it's a conflict of interest to have forum moderators do the same role on multiple forums).

But in any event, I truly doubt the Empyrea/DF issue had anything to do with the GaryCon announcement.  Message board drama like that doesn't really affect things--I suspect its the other issues.  (The only thing that outted post does is show a form of harrasment that makes it an easier target for the other critics).

Quote from: mightybrain;1077746To clarify, Frank wasn't banned, he was uninvited as guest of honour. Luke says he was still welcome to attend; which makes a mockery of his own words about "toxic aggression" by the way.

One thing to keep in mind regarding Luke Gygax and GaryCon.  Luke is definitely aiming the con at the more mainstream gaming audience.  GaryCon was never solely for the grognards.  If you look at the activity, GaryCon has been courting bigger players like Paizo and WoTC guests.  He's also working on Hollywood connections, such as mentions on The Big Bang Theory, auctions in Hollywood, film projects, etc.  Luke Gygax is really good at PR.  It keeps getting bigger each year and I suspect he sees it in the same way as GenCon was--a convention that just keeps growing each year.  

As such, he is probably concerned about the current climate and probably has to keep abreast of this considering other larger conventions have taken this seriously.  Even if Frank is innocent of the issues Price accused him of, I think this is probably a defensive move to prevent protests and negative PR.  He's not banning Frank, just making sure he's not a "special status" person which a lot of the more aggressive liberal factions can and will target as "normalizing harassment".  While that may be unfortunate, I think he's trying to look at the bigger picture here--or at least what is best for the convention itself.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1077753Actually it's increasingly likely that Price and Frasier were in fact the two women Hensley called 'traumatizing'.

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that Price and Frasier are the "girl gaggle" referenced in the since-retracted conversation Hensley had with FGG staff.  It's disappointing that Hensley caved to their pressure.

Quote from: JRT;1077775As such, he is probably concerned about the current climate and probably has to keep abreast of this considering other larger conventions have taken this seriously.  Even if Frank is innocent of the issues Price accused him of, I think this is probably a defensive move to prevent protests and negative PR.

Well, here's some great PR from a past GaryCon:

http://archive.is/BYyNG

If we're going to kowtow to the shitheel leftists protesting Mentzer's behavior, then why don't we just go all-in?

It will be hilariously ironic when Luke gets "disinvited" from GaryCon next for "toxic behavior" as all the poor frightened women come out of the woodwork to tell their tales of woe at his savage hands.

Quote from: JRT;1077775Regardless of the truth of this, does anybody find the fact that this was done a poor reflection on the mods for both sites.  The issue was already dealt with, but EOTB decided to "out" what was handled privately.  I think this was an escalation that didn't need to happen, and I was disappointed that the mods on both sites did nothing...they could have immediately taken down the post and disciplined the poster.  If I was a mod and that happened, I probably would have banned EOTB from Dragonsfoot for escalating the situation elsewhere.  The big issue to me was the same mods on DF were also on KKA, and that leads to concerns about favoritism.  Do I think that there was a planned conspiracy--no.  Do I think there was some favoritism towards a prolific poster?  Yes.  It's good that they didn't show favoritism towards a high profile named creator, but I feel they could have similarly not shown favoritism towards a prolific poster on the forums.  (I think it's a conflict of interest to have forum moderators do the same role on multiple forums).

I've largely stayed out of Frank's dredging this issue up again; I still do so plan; I will address this point very briefly with some facts for everyone to contrast with the above, which to make clear I find perversely wrong.

But first, I consider you a particularly slimy person.  Sycophancy isn't sufficient in my opinion to describe your most salient feature.  I don't say this to ad hominem you. I say this so the reader will be certain to extract any ounce of bias in the following:

1. I didn't "out the PM" when sent to me originally

2. No one "outed the PM" when DF acknowledged the reality that something must be wrong to remove someone, but was otherwise very, very courteous to Frank in their explanation, and in fact led suspicion away from something like a PM driving events.

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1874820#p1874820

3. In the face of that courtesy, and yawning silence from everyone else involved, Frank decided to imply that the philosophical differences leading to his departure were commercial; that DF's focus was somehow involved in casting him out over selling something other than RPG fundamentalism.  

https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2017/09/frank-mentzer-follows-up-with.html

Instead of wishing "everyone seek each other out where they are at and best of luck" (paraphrased), that instead DF should be scorned.

Quote"I say again, ignore (or scorn) those who are intolerant and trolling us with their sacramental sentiments about "One True Game" and Why Your Game Sucks. (You have opinions, great. So stop dissing others when they express theirs. Learn tact.)

Go ahead, rag on me or words or websites. We all need to vent.

Quote from comments

4. To the reader - would you do the above to someone that had handled the event as DF did?

5. Yes, I released the PM after this.  If Frank wanted to talk what happened, let him talk about what happened.  

6. Note: he can't stop talking about it.  I've never mentioned it since.  I didn't mention it now.

7.  Please also note:  I'm fine with anyone reading this believing Frank didn't send that PM.  I'm not asking you to revise your opinion if Frank makes you happy.  The entire dredging is bizarre from a normal perspective.

It allways appalls me just how often designers and publishers self sabotage themselves and steal defeat from the jaws of victory.

Quote from: jhkim;1077728So there is an alleged injury to a staffer (not Hensley) - but the extent of it and how it happened is left very unclear. I don't think it's a major part of the case, but I mention it because that might be how Rafael got that impression.

Not meant as a copout, but just FTR, I really don't remember: There was a lot of buzz back when the news hit the web, but I didn't follow it all too closely, back then, as I don't follow Bill Webb/FGG outside of this, either. I've talked about the incident with others IRL on numerous occasions, though, so there might have been a good dose of orally traded sensationalism to it, as well. - You know, you get told a tale of a person you don't know punching somebody else you don't know, you tend to accept it - which I reckon is not cool.

Quote from: kythri;1077740Brookes is full of shit.

Let's not even go there. Accusations live and die by proof. If Brookes, Price etc. really maliciously exaggerated their version of events

Quote from: JRT;1077775While I think it is Improbable (not Impossible, but highly unlikely) Frank Mentzer got hacked, and his apparent actions likely deserved his banishment, his FB message does have one point people are ignoring.

Let's be clear about this: Frank saying that he didn't write this has about the same validity to it as it would have if I said that an insidious co-worker installed that suspicious "DragonQuest" app on my company phone. That he keeps insisting on this, and modifying the narrative as the context is evolving, is stupid beyond comprehension.

QuoteI think it's a conflict of interest to have forum moderators do the same role on multiple forums.

I am not a mod at DF, but I'm one of the guys who are running the Comeback Inn, and one of the guys who are running OD&D'74. - While this is a little bit OT, I'd like to say that this, under most circumstances, is actually an asset, and not a problem: Most of us who are now involved as mods and admins kind of "grew up together" in  oldschool online community. This is important because in the case there is some serious beef going on, you know whom to talk to. - Obviously, networking of this kind can have its negative sides, as well, but mostly, it has created an atmosphere of trust, and an atmosphere where controversial issues can be talked about with a high degree of personal confidence: In EOTB's case, for example, the fact that most of the people who run the different oldschool communities know him as a quality poster has certainly taken the edge off the accusations that Frank made against him.

QuoteOne thing to keep in mind regarding Luke Gygax and GaryCon.  ...While that may be unfortunate, I think he's trying to look at the bigger picture here--or at least what is best for the convention itself.

Yeah, but then, this recent statement is a mistake: If it's looking that he's pilling on Frank because Mentzer is a convenient pawn sacrifice here, people are not going to take him seriously. - I don't have any beef with Luke, otherwise, so it isn't meant as a sting when I say that the future of GaryCon not going to be determined by how he manages social issues: It is going to be determined by whether he and his associates finally deliver on the number of overdue projects that they've been helming. If "The Hobby Shop Dungeon" becomes another "Castle Zagyg", the Gygax brothers are over. This is why it's so baffling to me that they don't manage this situation in a way that doesn't invite other distractions for them. - Again, one week of internet drama, or one discrete phone call to Frank - one of these leaves you more time to handle more essential things.

Quote from: Rafael;1077827Yeah, but then, this recent statement is a mistake: If it's looking that he's pilling on Frank because Mentzer is a convenient pawn sacrifice here, people are not going to take him seriously. - I don't have any beef with Luke, otherwise, so it isn't meant as a sting when I say that the future of GaryCon not going to be determined by how he manages social issues: It is going to be determined by whether he and his associates finally deliver on the number of overdue projects that they've been helming. If "The Hobby Shop Dungeon" becomes another "Castle Zagyg", the Gygax brothers are over. This is why it's so baffling to me that they don't manage this situation in a way that doesn't invite other distractions for them. - Again, one week of internet drama, or one discrete phone call to Frank - one of these leaves you more time to handle more essential things.

You are making one incorrect assumption--that Luke and Ernie are currently in business together.

Luke owns and runs GaryCon.  I don't know how much the other Gygax's are involved in that outside of being guests, but Luke is in the business of running the con and no other Gygax is listed as a staff member.  That's his major creative effort.  To my knowledge he's not producing any gaming product.  The Convention is very successful and is unlikely to be affected by any publishing endeavors.  That's why he's probably more concerned about the publicity of his guests, etc.

Ernie and his partner Benoist are the ones doing the Hobby Shop Dungeon.  That is becoming a fiasco and backers are getting upset, but Luke Gygax has nothing to do with that project at all.  If that one fails, it will be a black mark on Ernie Gygax and people are not going to trust him if it fails, but it's not going to affect GaryCon's reputation.

Quote from: EOTB;1077809the reader - would you do the above to someone that had handled the event as DF did?

5. Yes, I released the PM after this.  If Frank wanted to talk what happened, let him talk about what happened.  

6. Note: he can't stop talking about it.  I've never mentioned it since.  I didn't mention it now.

7.  Please also note:  I'm fine with anyone reading this believing Frank didn't send that PM.  I'm not asking you to revise your opinion if Frank makes you happy.  The entire dredging is bizarre from a normal perspective.

This. I didn't know that you posted on this site, actually. - But, yeah, this is it: This PM happened in a general context of inappropriate conversations between a content seller and the interested community. Regardless of the PM, in particular, Frank had no business getting into these sort of conversations with you, or with others. Simply, he didn't.

I think it was actually a good thing that this blew over the way it did, because it changed the discourse: Frank wasn't the first content creator, by far,, who tried to bully fans to defend questionable business strategies. It was a good move that the community resisted that. - How the situation developed from there, especially with this forced and poorly believable allegation of sexual harassment, is another matter. The best thing Frank could do now is to shut the fuck up, though. That he doesn't do that, bad. He can still bounce back from this, if he doesn't make the PM issue his hill to die on.

Quote from: JRT;1077829You are making one incorrect assumption--that Luke and Ernie are currently in business together.

Sorry, I have these windows open in my browser while I am doing other stuff; I am not intentionally overlooking posts, or trying to be all over the thread. - Let me rephrase, perhaps: The Gygax name as a brand has been suffering tremendously; the last thing Luke needs now is a PR disaster of these proportions. I am aware that he is not directly involved with the "The Marmoreal Tomb".
 Is a clean distinction possible, though, if he's involved with the promotion of the product?

Like, understand me well - I am happy that GaryCon is aeound, and I am happy about the work they're doing. I'm just, frankly, puzzled at the amount of drama that is created without any need. Again, there is a version of this story where Luke calls Frank, and asks, "you got to sit this one out". And Frank simply says, "alright".

How popular of a guest is Frank Mentzer?

AKA, have any of you attended GaryCon or other con where Frank was present? Was he popular with attendees? Was he popular with other special guests? AKA, did he run big events or well attended panels?

I ask because I'm trying to look at this idiotic shitfest from an "Old School Con" marketing perspective. If GaryCon wants to be focused on "Gary's games and Gary's old crew", then I wonder how much Frank has value as "Gary's Old Crew" for drawing attendees.

Of course, it sounds like GaryCon was an Old School Con when it began, but has since transitioned into a General Gaming Con so perhaps "Gary's Old Crew" aren't a necessary (or even desired) element.

Maybe SJW human garbage are a key demographic of GaryCon attendees and Luke is just taking care of his actual customers? AKA, maybe Luke is just following the money and protecting his dollars.  

I don't know the GaryCon demographic as I've never attended, but answers to most questions in life can be solved by following the money.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1077902How popular of a guest is Frank Mentzer?

AKA, have any of you attended GaryCon or other con where Frank was present? Was he popular with attendees? Was he popular with other special guests? AKA, did he run big events or well attended panels?

I ask because I'm trying to look at this idiotic shitfest from an "Old School Con" marketing perspective. If GaryCon wants to be focused on "Gary's games and Gary's old crew", then I wonder how much Frank has value as "Gary's Old Crew" for drawing attendees.

Of course, it sounds like GaryCon was an Old School Con when it began, but has since transitioned into a General Gaming Con so perhaps "Gary's Old Crew" aren't a necessary (or even desired) element.

Maybe SJW human garbage are a key demographic of GaryCon attendees and Luke is just taking care of his actual customers? AKA, maybe Luke is just following the money and protecting his dollars.  

I don't know the GaryCon demographic as I've never attended, but answers to most questions in life can be solved by following the money.

I went to NTRPGCon what, six times maybe..? when he was a guest. I'd say quite a few people went specifically to play in his games or hang out with him. No extensive comment on Garycon as I've been once (last year), but I'm of the opinion he was fairly popular there, too.

I didn't see many, if any SJWs past year, but who the fuck knows...I ran a Mutant Crawl Classics game and played some D&D and never got the impression anyone was of that ilk.