I think that discounts the purported claim that there are other reasons that Gygax isn't sharing, and I don't think he should.  If he knew a reason that Mentzer should not be included, and he publicly broadcasts it, he can further damage his friend's reputation and career.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1077554I think that discounts the purported claim that there are other reasons that Gygax isn't sharing, and I don't think he should.  If he knew a reason that Mentzer should not be included, and he publicly broadcasts it, he can further damage his friend's reputation and career.

I disagree. Again, I'm usually not at all about "whataboutism" - except that in this case, context is needed: Bill Webb notoriously assaulted a woman at PaizoCon 2017. He wasn't disinvited, or disavowed, or whatever - he was allowed to withdraw on his own conditions.

Why wasn't Frank allowed to do the same? The allegations of misconduct against him seem laughable compared to what Webb allegedly did. And if the blunder with "Empyrea" is still at the core of the decision to ban him from GaryCon - well, not to be a dick, but if I was Luke, I would perhaps be a bit chill about that. - Being that he is primarily associated with the "Gygax Mag" disaster, and, by proxy, with "Castle Zagyg", and with "The Marmoreal Tomb".

This is a terrible PR move, because it makes things look as if Luke was operating a double standard: Bill is still in the biz, so he gets a free pass. Frank will never work in the industry again, so he gets used as a pawn sacrifice to distract the SWJ crowd. To ban him in '19, after inviting him in '18, and to give no specifics other than vaguely referring to the allegations made against Frank in '17 is literally the stupidest thing Luke could do. - Just let the old warrior quietly ride into the sunrise. You can make up a reason why he won't be able to attend from now on. The only reason this is now a big deal is because the way it was done, labeling Frank as a "harbinger", is, simply, not smart.


- I cannot but wonder what PR agent fees are in Michigan. After the proverbial "gygaxing" ("to gygaxe" = "getting rid of your creative team in a product's post-production stage") we now probably have "the mentzering" ("to mentzer so." = "to fire so. for an offense that you consider immaterial in others").

That could have been done smoother, and that could have been done better.

Quote from: Rafael;1077672I disagree. Again, I'm usually not at all about "whataboutism" - except that in this case, context is needed: Bill Webb notoriously assaulted a woman at PaizoCon 2017.

Is that a reference to the security staffer he supposedly injured? He's not accused of 'assaulting' the target of his affections AFAICR.

Quote from: Rafael;1077672I disagree. Again, I'm usually not at all about "whataboutism" - except that in this case, context is needed: Bill Webb notoriously assaulted a woman at PaizoCon 2017. He wasn't disinvited, or disavowed, or whatever - he was allowed to withdraw on his own conditions.

Why wasn't Frank allowed to do the same? The allegations of misconduct against him seem laughable compared to what Webb allegedly did. And if the blunder with "Empyrea" is still at the core of the decision to ban him from GaryCon - well, not to be a dick, but if I was Luke, I would perhaps be a bit chill about that. - Being that he is primarily associated with the "Gygax Mag" disaster, and, by proxy, with "Castle Zagyg", and with "The Marmoreal Tomb".

This is a terrible PR move, because it makes things look as if Luke was operating a double standard: Bill is still in the biz, so he gets a free pass. Frank will never work in the industry again, so he gets used as a pawn sacrifice to distract the SWJ crowd. To ban him in '19, after inviting him in '18, and to give no specifics other than vaguely referring to the allegations made against Frank in '17 is literally the stupidest thing Luke could do. - Just let the old warrior quietly ride into the sunrise. You can make up a reason why he won't be able to attend from now on. The only reason this is now a big deal is because the way it was done, labeling Frank as a "harbinger", is, simply, not smart.


- I cannot but wonder what PR agent fees are in Michigan. After the proverbial "gygaxing" ("to gygaxe" = "getting rid of your creative team in a product's post-production stage") we now probably have "the mentzering" ("to mentzer so." = "to fire so. for an offense that you consider immaterial in others").

That could have been done smoother, and that could have been done better.

You missing the key element where Luke made it clear that there was more to his decision than has been made public.

Quote from: Motorskills;1077692You missing the key element where Luke made it clear that there was more to his decision than has been made public.

He did not make it clear. I read what he said and he did not say that.

I think this was addressed:

Quote from: Motorskills;1076029The guys at North Texas RPG Con have been in touch with Luke, it seems that there is more to it than just the incident(s) with Price, bolding mine.

Quote from: Originally Posted by Michael Badolato...
I did talk with Luke yesterday and whether I agree fully with him or not, the issue with Frank was a result of many actions, some we are not privy to, not the Price issue in particular. We haven't had the same issues with Frank so I cannot speak for Luke or anyone else about the decisions they made.

Quote from: S'mon;1077677Is that a reference to the security staffer he supposedly injured? He's not accused of 'assaulting' the target of his affections AFAICR.

The security staffer was a different person (GAMA president at GenCon apparently injured a security guard when he got huffy and tried to push past the human roadblock keeping him from using a particular entrance).

The claims of Bill Webb injuriously assaulting someone are whole-cloth invented by fucktard Robert Brookes, who claims he witnessed it, and later got amplified by non-witnesses such as Price - nevermind that there's absolutely no corroboration of it, just his statement.

Quote from: S'mon;1077677Is that a reference to the security staffer he supposedly injured? He's not accused of 'assaulting' the target of his affections AFAICR.

Sorry, maybe that's a language problem on my side. So "assaulting" implies injury? - The version that I remember from '17 - before #MeToo came in - was that Webb allegedly attacked one woman, then also attacked a second one that wanted to defend the first, and, making a third really bad judgment call, also tried to punch things out with the people that jumped in to separate them. The records of how the fight ended were differing, but there was a consensus that there had been a fight.

Quote from: Motorskills;1077692You missing the key element where Luke made it clear that there was more to his decision than has been made public.

What S'mon said. Luke didn't write that.

I have been pointed to Luke and Benoist Poire going on social media and trying to make excuses after the noticeable backlash, and them justifying Luke's statement by citing events behind the scenes as "the real reason" for their behavior towards Frank. - Which, again, begs the question: Why release a public statement in the first place, if you're not willing to discuss the topic?! Luke put the topic on the map for us when he just as easily could have handled this in private. - According to Frank, Luke even called him before posting the announcement. Why not just call Frank, leave things there, and spare yourselves any further public scrutiny?

- Let me take a step back, here, and say that this doesn't even need to make sense to me. But shouldn't it at least make sense to Luke? What about this announcement has made his own position better in any way?

Quote from: Rafael;1077708Sorry, maybe that's a language problem on my side. So "assaulting" implies injury? - The version that I remember from '17 - before #MeToo came in - was that Webb allegedly attacked one woman, then also attacked a second one that wanted to defend the first, and, making a third really bad judgment call, also tried to punch things out with the people that jumped in to separate them. The records of how the fight ended were differing, but there was a consensus that there had been a fight.?

That didn't happen.  The only "consensus" was between idiots like Brookes, Price and Frasier (the latter two who weren't even present for the incident (they were at the venue, yes), and hijacked it to push their own narrative.

Quote from: kythri;1077714That didn't happen.  The only "consensus" was between idiots like Brookes, Price and Frasier (the latter two who weren't even present for the incident (they were at the venue, yes), and hijacked it to push their own narrative.

Sorry, I didn't read your earlier answers had already kind of rendered my own last post partly obsolete.

So, what did happen, then? Is there an "official" version, through, whatever, the filling of a police report, or through formal statements from all afflicted parties?

Quote from: Rafael;1077719So, what did happen, then? Is there an "official" version, through, whatever, the filling of a police report, or through formal statements from all afflicted parties?

There really isn't.  The most official statement, I link below.  No police report was file, as Hensley didn't want the police called.

Lisa Stevens (Paizo CEO) made a statement that didn't provide much, if any, details:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uoph?Open-Letter-From-Paizo-CEO-Lisa-Stevens

BJ Hensley made a statement as well (in that same thread), but one that contradicted earlier private communications she had with FGG staff that got leaked.

Neither of those statements says anything about any kind of physical assault.  In fact, Hensley's own words are:

Quote from: HensleyThe offensive behavior I dealt with from this person was very inappropriate, unwanted, and frankly a bit scary.

One would think that if one had been assaulted, such a statement would have been a little less limp than "offensive behavior".

Quote from: kythri;1077722There really isn't.  The most official statement, I link below.  No police report was file, as Hensley didn't want the police called.

Lisa Stevens (Paizo CEO) made a statement that didn't provide much, if any, details:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uoph?Open-Letter-From-Paizo-CEO-Lisa-Stevens

BJ Hensley made a statement as well (in that same thread), but one that contradicted earlier private communications she had with FGG staff that got leaked.

Neither of those statements says anything about any kind of physical assault.

There is also an official ENWorld that cites both the Paizo statement and a statement from Frog God Games, and reached out to Webb for comment - and he directed them to the Frog God Games post.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4613-Harassment-At-PaizoCon-2017

There it says:

QuoteAllegations of improper behavior at the 2017 PaizoCon by Frog God Games CEO Bill Webb were brought to life by Pathfinder content creator Robert Brookes. Brookes was attending PaizoCon and has written for Paizo and Legendary Games, among others. In an incident involving alcohol, Webb allegedly sexually harassed another guest at the convention and when a staffer attempted to intervene and injury occurred with the staffer.

So there is an alleged injury to a staffer (not Hensley) - but the extent of it and how it happened is left very unclear. I don't think it's a major part of the case, but I mention it because that might be how Rafael got that impression.

If Brookes' claims were true (i.e. a Paizo staffer was injured), it most certainly would have been called out by Stevens in her statement.

Brookes is full of shit.

Quote from: Rafael;1077672Frank will never work in the industry again, so he gets used as a pawn sacrifice to distract the SWJ crowd. To ban him in '19, after inviting him in '18, and to give no specifics other than vaguely referring to the allegations made against Frank in '17 is literally the stupidest thing Luke could do.

To clarify, Frank wasn't banned, he was uninvited as guest of honour. Luke says he was still welcome to attend; which makes a mockery of his own words about "toxic aggression" by the way.

The whole thing stinks. I've never attended a Gary Con or met Luke. Now I have no interest in either.

Quote from: jhkim;1077064Yeah, his story about "I was hacked" changed to "I had a house guest that I refuse to dox" in the comments, when confronted by Paul Stuart Tucker. I find it amazing that anyone actually buys that explanation.

Wait, are we talking about Frank or Zak?

Quote from: Rafael;1077708Why release a public statement in the first place, if you're not willing to discuss the topic?!

That's a really good question, considering most organizations are smart enough to do these things privately. I wonder what they hoped to achieve or why they felt it was necessary.

Quote from: kythri;1077714The only "consensus" was between idiots like Brookes, Price and Frasier (the latter two who weren't even present for the incident (they were at the venue, yes), and hijacked it to push their own narrative.

Actually it's increasingly likely that Price and Frasier were in fact the two women Hensley called 'traumatizing'.