Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1075647Just as the Zak Smith/Daniel Fox saga, all of this seems like literal soap opera-level to me. Why should anyone care what any of these people do in their private lives unless you happen to know them closely?

Garycon is not 'private lives'??

Sure, so the news is that Mentzer got banned from Garycon over his personal conduct with others. That's the gist of it, duly taken note of.
But then we dive into detail:

QuoteJessica Price

Quoteblackmail bullshit on the Dragonsfoot forum

QuoteHis Facebook reads like a giant dumpster fire and has scrubbed many of his old posts where former colleagues and friends have told him to relax https://www.facebook.com/frank.mentzer

QuoteHe may very well be a total ass

QuoteI've read Frank's exchanges with Price. Price is an SJW nutjob. Having said that, Mentzer seems to also be socially retarded. Why is a man in his 60's for God's sake even involving himself in stupid conversations on Facebook and Twitter with women half his age?

And that's where it becomes soap opera to me. "He said she did this, she said that he's that."
It's the 2010s and somehow it seems like I am assumed to have to care what any other person out there in the same hobby as mine does in their private lives and if I don't, then I guess I am an enabler or some such nonsense. No, I'm not. I'm not an enabler if I don't give a damn if Zak Smith abused his girl-friends (since I am completely removed from the situation). Get this: I wouldn't even be one if I was to begin buying his products (which I have no intention of doing). I'm interested in games and in talking about games and whether you're killing puppies in your neighborhood is no concern of mine. Other than the usual reporting evidence of crime to authorities if I was to become aware of any, of course.

So, bottom line: sure, it's good to know if someone has a certain reputation so that you can keep an eye on it if you ever were to meet them. Sure, Garycon uninviting the dude is news-worthy. But is the rest really relevant?

They uninvited him?
:rolleyes:oh no... that's terrible...

Mentzer may be a senile old asshat but at one point he made one of the most groundbreaking versions of D&D ever, a game that had a profound impact on the hobby.

This isn't like Zak S. and his mediocre OSR products or like Black Hat Matt and his predatory communist propaganda game Beast: The Primordial (the game so woke it even made RPG.net uncomfortable)

Mentzer made the Red Box set and the worst crimes you can accuse him of (to anyone's knowledge) are that he's an asshole on the internet and he awkwardly hit on Jessica Price like an idiot.

Black Hat Matt is a literal communist who not only advocates threats of violence against anyone he disagrees with, he also is a rapist and several of his victims were minors at the time.

Frank Mentzer is deemed persona non grata and people are going all Damnatio Memoriae on him (and WOTC will probably remove BECMI from DTRPG at this rate) while the only thing that happened to Black Hat Matt is that he was banned from RPG.net (which isn't exactly hard to accomplish) and that was it.

DTRPG is still selling Beast: The Primordial and while Onyx Path officially fired him, a lot of the Onyx Path woke-meisters are still on speaking terms with him and Beast is still being promoted on their forums.

If these SJW hipsters and other punk rock commie scum weren't such hypocrites, they'd Damnatio Memoriae Black Hat Matt and send Beast: The Primordial down the memory hole where it belongs.

Frank Mentzer's version of Basic D&D is a legendary game that introduced a whole generation into the hobby back in the 1980's.

Black Hat Matt's Beast: The Primordial is largely hated by non-SJW's (even some SJW's find it awful) and is often included on the same "Worst RPG's Ever" lists as FATAL, MYFAROG, Wraethu, and D&D 4E.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1075652Black Hat Matt's Beast: The Primordial is largely hated by non-SJW's (even some SJW's find it awful) and is often included on the same "Worst RPG's Ever" lists as FATAL, MYFAROG, Wraethu, and D&D 4E.

*ouch* Sammy that was a mean hit on 4e!

Anyway I agree with your sentiment. Mentzer's attempt at bullying EOTB over on Dragonsfoot was pretty appalling; his awkward hitting on Price was just silly, though his views on sexual harrassment were unwise to say the least. I don't think I like him much. But he has done nothing to deserve this treatment from Luke Gygax & Garycon. The guy is an industry legend who is probably a bit senile, as you say. He is not some kind of sexual predator.

Quote from: S'mon;1075631I... I think Mentzer has been a massive jerk, but still he should not have been un-personed. I felt strongly enough to post my views to Garycon's Facebook, so I expect to be torn to shreds by the SJWs active there. :\

Hrrrm? Something else happened, something that you are not hearing about. I have known Luke for awhile now, and he would stand by Frank, especially in consideration of Frank's relationship with Luke's father. I'm certain it pained him greatly to have to make this decision, especially just a couple of weeks before the show this year. I would put good money on any wager that says that Frank tried to to step on someone else, or was lured into doing something that would once again harm the show, and this was brought to Luke's attention.

I'm pretty much in the camp of I just want to sit around and play some games with my friends, and a few guests that show up to sit in at my table. Personally, I don't want a bunch of people name-calling, fighting, being disagreeable, dragging in their broken personal relationships, and just being anti-social working their way into my gaming environment and poisoning the fun that we have. I'm over all the people on the internet that are doing this as well and making our fun and games, ...well, ...not so fun.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1075658I would put good money on any wager that says that Frank tried to to step on someone else, or was lured into doing something that would once again harm the show, and this was brought to Luke's attention.

Well there didn't seem any indication of that in Luke's statement, so it seems a bit unfair to speculate.

Quote from: S'mon;1075659Well there didn't seem any indication of that in Luke's statement, so it seems a bit unfair to speculate.

Well, what you call my speculation is based on my personal knowledge of Luke, and the facts are these; Luke enjoys gaming very much, he is an active duty military officer, and a gentleman, as well as a good family man. I'm pretty sure about every year GaryCon has been a show that Luke has stopped by Frank's place for some gaming and good times. For many years Frank has had an open house where him and his wife host gamers for an evening of open D&D gaming. To see a rift open between these old friends is painful, and not without some specific cause, other than some vague allegations...  Also, the fact that they are not speaking about this openly indicates their mutual desire to not harm the show any further. What do you hope to achieve in pursuing this matter further?

Quote from: GameDaddy;1075660What do you hope to achieve in pursuing this matter further?

I would like to see fewer specious un-personings in the RPG game industry. I would like to see a clear bright line between (a) jerkish behaviour and (b) serious allegations of criminal activity. I would like to see the two treated very differently.

Quote from: S'mon;1075661I would like to see fewer specious un-personings in the RPG game industry. I would like to see a clear bright line between (a) jerkish behaviour and (b) serious allegations of criminal activity. I would like to see the two treated very differently.

Well, I'm just here for gaming, not to sort out jerks from criminals and the criminals from jerks, ...except perhaps to keep them both from spoiling the fun to be had at my gaming table.

Cool.  Garycon got woke.

Glad my plans to attend this year fell through.

Quote from: S'mon;1075661I would like to see fewer specious un-personings in the RPG game industry. I would like to see a clear bright line between (a) jerkish behaviour and (b) serious allegations of criminal activity. I would like to see the two treated very differently.

If anything, criminal behaviour is easy to deal with, since it's usually pretty clear-cut. Harassment (jerkish behaviour) can easily be enough to deter people from coming / coming back, without it being criminal behaviour. Some guy gets drunk starts leering at the ladies - it's not a crime, but why should the convention defend that person over the people that are understandably not wanting to be in the same room as that guy?

Quote from: CRKrueger;1075635Frank's pissed off a ton of people, a lot more than just Price.  However, Luke used language like "toxic" and "safe space" to feed the SJWs even if that wasn't the main reason.

He caved to the SJW mob like too many companies do. Once you start using that kind of language one is just trying to be woke and virtue signal. If Luke would have been smarter he would have used Frank bad behavior at Dragonsfoot as the only reason.

Quote from: Motorskills;1075665Some guy gets drunk starts leering at the ladies - it's not a crime, but why should the convention defend that person over the people that are understandably not wanting to be in the same room as that guy?

Yeah, but Frank Mentzer didn't even do that.

The most uncomfortable experience I've had in 30 years of gaming was at Garycon and had nothing to do with Frank.
Having a stripper on the boardroom table, bdsm punishments for rolling 1s or 2s, and a plethora of other stuff.