Quote from: Rafael;1077152- But I think we all should ask why apparently nobody cared to save him from all those unforced errors.
A community needs to take care of its icons, and the oldschool community has clearly failed Frank.

Seen this before. The reason is simple. Yet not. Assuming the person sis not just sally fourth on their own accord.

Someone did not know and greenlighted it.
Or did know, at least a little, but thought the person had changed.
Or did or did not know and said person was the only one willing to take charge.
Or it was that persons aegis in the first place and others are usually reluctant to derail a dream.
It is even possible someone tried and failed. (I know how hard this one is from personal experience.)

As for Mentzer and all this. It is weird. Mentzer acts the internet bully and gets demonized. Jackson does it, and gets a pat on the back for his good deeds.

Quote from: Rafael;1077162Absolutely. Let's not misunderstand one another: There is no way to excuse Frank's behavior in '17. It defies imagination that he could be so careless and stupid, both from a private and from a business perspective.

Youd be surprised how many publishers misbehave, and more oft than not get away with it even. I suspect some do because they believe that their fanbase is more fanatic than fan and so whatever they do. They will be supported, defended. And some are unfortunately right.

Maybee Mentzer thought the same? I doubt it. I think he just posted without thinking at all of the possible rammifications. Its way too common a thing on and offline.

Quote from: Rafael;1077173...Which again begs the question of who the hell advised him to try and make 250k in advances for a product whose production costs would lie between 15 and 20k.

That one is easy, and its a fallacy that pops up fairly often.

Production costs say 15k?
What about art fees? Shipping fees? Royalties? Is that all bundled into that 15k?
Even if it is. All this means is that at that point your product broke even at best. Lost money at worst. You have to set the cost per unit to more than the cost to produce. It used to be this was so as there was funds for the next product and paying advertising, office space, etc. Theres alot of hidden cots the average joe and even supposedly educated designers keep overlooking.

All that said. Theres a point past which things get over-ambitious and you undermine your chances. Here is where they should have known better. But I have seen even pros screw this up. Usually because even with research some factors just never occurred to them. Or as was noted above. They looked at someone elses project and did not look at any deeper than the surface details.

So who knows what the thought process went into the KS. But from experience I'd guess that they really just did not think it through all the way. Or as

Quote from: Rafael;1077182If Frank hadn't posted in that thread, no problem at all. A bit of minor internet banter, and a lot of pretty legit criticism, but no world-shattering drama.

That is the perplexing thing of it all. Why did he go back there of all places? That would be like Pundit getting on RPGnet to promote his latest book. Its just begging something to go wrong. Or very wrong.

Quote from: Omega;1077260As for Mentzer and all this. It is weird. Mentzer acts the internet bully and gets demonized. Jackson does it, and gets a pat on the back for his good deeds.

Who is Jackson?

Quote from: Rafael;1077168I get where you're coming from, but I don't think this diminishes the amount of professional negligence that was committed here:

Chris Wiese, former vice prez of GAMA.
Kevin Wilson - not the one of "Spycraft" fame, but a prolific blogger who runs a "leadership consulting business", among other things.
Mike Myler, EnWorld contributor, podcaster, blogger, and project manager for a number of bigger and smaller indie publishing projects.

And all three of those, with their stellar backgrounds, are going to tell us that they had no idea what they were getting into? That they had no pulse on the weaknesses, and on the threats to this particular project - back when everyone else could tell that it would be doomed from the start?


Naah.

I have no personal beef with those guys; I don't know them. But this needs to be called out: Frank suggests that he payed them. I want to see what he was billed for.

Myler, at least, publicly commented about his involvement in the Kickstarter (this was back when it was tanking). Go here: https://mikemyler.com/many-hats/ and scroll down to "Crowdfunding."

He says

Quote from: Mike MylerAll of my campaign settings are the result of crowdfunded projects and I'm 6/7 (thank you awesome backers!!!) There was one hiccup that people are probably going to be curious about–I am (despite requests from before launch and afterwards) credited as "Crowdfunding Engineer" for the Empyrea Kickstarter. This is not accurate. It would be unseemly for me to speak on it at length but I will share this small snippet of my contract because its intent was clear: I knew that decisions beyond my power to control or influence had fatally flawed the project, with such a high level of confidence that I demanded an amendment to my contract specifically detailing the primary element I knew was the biggest problem. I sent my resignation letter the morning of October 17th and wish them the very best of luck.

Quote from: Rafael;1077152Frank was in the process of founding his "Eldritch Enterprises" (I think that was the name) back then, a small company that was supposed to publish his and other TSR-era writers' work on an "indie" basis. If you've never heard of that company, then it's because the project, essentially, was a failure: The company released some 15-something PDF modules, yes - but none of them were particularly noteworthy to larger audiences. Also, the lack of marketing and the company's limited financial capability to provide state-of-the-art illustrations, maps, and layout design contributed to it basically going in and out of the industry without anyone taking notice. That's the worst way for an entrepreneurial endeavor to go down - not as a failure, but as a footnote.

I actually think a large part of what doomed Eldritch Enterprise to obscurity was actually Jim Ward's (who was the other main member) ultimate failure with his previous company, Fast Forward Entertainment. Basically they churned out a lot of shoddy d20 products with even lower production values than Eldritch Ent. stuff, but he got clobbered by WOTC because he had no idea how to use the OGL and used stuff from from the 3e books, not the SRD. They had to pulp a lot of their books and thus went out of business.

Because of this, none of the Eldritch Ent. products used a OGL based system, just a generic system that was confusing.  So basically, they had no market for their products. OSR fans didn't like it because it wasn't OSR. 5e or Pathfinder fans didn't like it because it wasn't 5e or Pathfinder.

Wasnt DragonElves the TCG from him as well? That one never even got to print I believe. Though I still have the rulebook flyer they were giving out at Gencon in the late 90s.

Addendum: Yep, found my old data entry on it.

QuoteDragonElves was a short lived foray into developing an E-card game by Fast Forward Enterprises in 2000. This was an unusual design in that players could design and customize their cards and then print out the decks themselves.

 Timothy B. Brown, Lester Smith, James M. Ward. 2000.

Assiming its the same Ward and the same Fast Forward.

Quote from: S'mon;1077180What Mentzer did was more than sufficient to warrant a forum ban.

We're not talking about being banned from the arse end of the Internet. I doubt even Frank cares about that. We're talking about being portrayed as public enemy number one in role playing games. And for what is a very weak sauce and totally impotent threat, if you can even call it that. This guy is like 70 years old, retired, on benefits, and medication and needs a mobility scooter to get about. He's no threat to anyone.

Just so we know what we're talking about here, here's an example of Frank in action. Trigger warning: the following footage may contain "toxic aggression detrimental to the safe space we as a gaming community strive for."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APPxO-SJVK8

Obviously this was years ago. He must've gotten a lot more dangerous since then. Right?

Quote from: mightybrain;1077350Were not talking about being banned from the arse end of the Internet. I doubt even Frank cares about that. We're talking about being portrayed as public enemy number one in role playing games.

I agree it's completely inappropriate the way Mentzer has been treated, by the SJW inquisition and by GaryCon. I felt strongly enough about it to complain to Luke Gygax on Facebook under my real name.

QuoteSo who knows what the thought process went into the KS. But from experience I'd guess that they really just did not think it through all the way.

Bingo. And here is where I call BS: A retired baker and, at the end of the day, a hobby gamer, hires a team of respected industry professionals. And they help him deliver THIS.

Quote from: Omega;1077267That is the perplexing thing of it all. Why did he go back there of all places? That would be like Pundit getting on RPGnet to promote his latest book. Its just begging something to go wrong. Or very wrong.

Yeah, but that's also the reason why you talk this kind of stuff through beforehand. I don't want to sell Frank as stupider than he is; but if we postulate that my earlier assessment of him is true - that you immediately notice how he is a fish out of the water when it comes to modern publishing - then it's his partners' or employees' professional duty of care to point that out.

This is connected to something else you mentioned:

Quote from: Omega;1077263Production costs say 15k?

For a PDF-/POD-release, that should be a reasonable sum. - If you, the writer, don't want to get paid for your own hours, that is. In Frank's case, I know for sure that at least part of "Empyrea" already existed in writing in '11: I know so because he showed me, and because he even gave two or three pages of the manuscript - which he also used to run an adventure - to me as a memento. Maybe it's not "print-worthy", as it is, but with a year of solid editing and other preparations, he could have released this one without any difficulty, and within a reasonable budget.

- Again, possessing that sort of information, and yet to encourage him to do the KS the way he did -  if that isn't a severe case of professional negligence by his team, I don't know what might qualify as such.

Like, maybe it was really the case that Frank was warned, and that he decided to do everything the other way, even so. - But looking at how many different topics were done badly, that seems unlikely: Even if Frank's online behavior was something his team couldn't directly moderate, the execution of the crowdfunding campaign was something these people were supposed to actively influence.

Sure, one might now argue that it wasn't their specific responsibility to tell Frank to chill out and to curb his enthusiasm, that he was the "project owner", and all: But that not how you're supposed to work as part of a team, and not how you are supposed to manage this project, specifically. Again, the retired baker recruits you to help him realize his dream project: Don't you ever get to the point where you sit him down for even the most basic SWOT briefing?!

It might even be true that these guys weren't "specifically" negligent. Just "generally" so.

Quote from: Rafael;1077355Sure, one might now argue that it wasn't their specific responsibility to tell Frank to chill out and to curb his enthusiasm, that he was the "project owner", and all: But that not how you're supposed to work as part of a team

The thing is, I'm not sure there ever actually was a team, as opposed to a bunch of names on a page. I haven't really seen any sign of anyone but Mentzer ever actually doing anything on Empyrea. It may not have been much more than him emailing people and asking to use their name.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1077276Myler, at least, publicly commented about his involvement in the Kickstarter (this was back when it was tanking). Go here: https://mikemyler.com/many-hats/ and scroll down to "Crowdfunding."

Thank you for this link! - That's pretty interesting. Now, I don't want to hang Mr Myler on poor wording, but - so he had a contract, yes? A contract that evidently involved topics related to the job described by Frank on the KS page? - Well, it would be nice to hear what he actually thinks his job is supposed to have been about, then. (- Sorry for the irony; it's not directed at you, for sure.)

Quote from: JeremyR;1077327I actually think a large part of what doomed Eldritch Enterprise to obscurity was actually Jim Ward's (who was the other main member) ultimate failure with his previous company, Fast Forward Entertainment.

Interesting as well. Thank you. - Without the relative thatricality that accompanies my other posts here, I really have to wonder who advises those guys: Particularly many members of the oldschool "D&D family" seem to have suffered from really amateurish approaches to the business. What happened there, and how could one try to fight it?

I mean, obviously, we're talking about the same niche of the industry where Castle Zagyg, Dwimmermount, Gygax Mag, CSIO, and the Hobby Shop Dungeon happened: It's not like many of the "heads" of the scene appear to to be particularly competent: I don't say this to provoke; I say this because it contextualizes how the industry generally deals with failure.  

Quote from: mightybrain;1077350We're talking about being portrayed as public enemy number one in role playing games. And for what is a very weak sauce and totally impotent threat, if you can even call it that. This guy is like 70 years old, retired, on benefits, and medication and needs a mobility scooter to get about. He's no threat to anyone.

Yeah, but this wasn't the Dragonsfoot community. This was done by other members of the RPG scene, I think mostly on RPGNet.

Quote from: S'mon;1077351I felt strongly enough about it to complain to Luke Gygax on Facebook under my real name.

That's cool. I wanted to do the same thing, but then decided to write my rant here, instead, if only because it likely will have a bigger audience. We need to change this!

Quote from: S'mon;1077357The thing is, I'm not sure there ever actually was a team, as opposed to a bunch of names on a page. I haven't really seen any sign of anyone but Mentzer ever actually doing anything on Empyrea. It may not have been much more than him emailing people and asking to use their name.

Absolutely, that's a possibility: Especially with many of the writers named, I suspect that was the case. - Then again, this can be proven beyond a doubt. Frank claims to have paid people. For what, why, what specific sums?  - Especially the three names I've named: That's not the design team, that's the product management section. Those guys were either clearly in, or they were out. Especially if they had already signed contracts, as Myler disclosed.

I'm going to repeat this once more for the sake of sanity and reason...

Frank Mentzer is senile and probably an asshole, but I doubt he's a predatory threat on the level of Zak S.

If GaryCon wants to ban him to avoid any further backlash from the Neo-Bolsheviks and other punk rock leftists, they have that right. I think it's a little excessive (it'd be more reasonable to just not have him be a guest speaker and maybe have a nurse or someone skilled with geriatric care to chaperone him) but it's not entirely ridiculous like what GenCon did to Hambly on behalf of Commissar Anita.

Of course, Frank Mentzer may be abrasive and probably suffering from the Alzheimer's, so not the best choice for GaryCon guest books.

But if I were GaryCon staff, I would've simultaneously preemptively banned Stacey D and her crew in the exact same motion that banned Mentzer. Just to show that they don't play favorites and they don't fuck around.