Col, if you haven't seen it, check out E6, a modification to D&D that is supposed to let PCs be heroic (by scaling down the rest of the world) but not superheroes. I think it was inspired by D&D: Calibrating your expectations, an article in the vein of Seligman's piece.

In a nutshell, you only advance to 6th level. After that, every 5,000xp you can take a feat, but gain no HD, skill points, etc (although you can still take Feats that give you those things). The author has a wiki with some suggested Feats that unlock certain pre-reqs and signature class abilities that would otherwise be unnatainable.

I've always liked low-level D&D, so these what ifs really get me pumped up to play the game.

So Colonel, any more thoughts about Gandalf & the Balrog?

No, I have to admit that I've had quite a bit on my plate lately. I'll have to let the tacticians here tackle the problem, if they're inclined to do so.

No problemo, I understand. I honestly don't think it's possible to stat up a 5th level wizard capable of rasslin' a Fiendish Fire Elemental with D&D.

Shoot, must've failed my Taunt check.

I know this won't serve as a good answer but maybe if something gets posted, other ideas will come.   Gandalf studied a number of spells which would only work in unique situitions.  If I remember my D&D, you could make a "narrow" spell which was powerful but limited ("For Ye Olde Balrog...")and get it lowered a level or two.  Gandalf just happened to have such a spell ready...could he read the future:raise:

Quote from: cr0mShoot, must've failed my Taunt check.

Actually, I agree with you. Well, I don't know if it's impossible, it's just very unlikely that a 5th level Wizard, regardless of edition, could accomplish such a feat. As he relates in the book, Gandalf fell with the Balrog, hewing him all the way down as they fell, then chased the beast all the way to the top of the mountain and laid the smack down on him there. Makes me tired just thinkin' about it.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonAs he relates in the book, Gandalf fell with the Balrog, hewing him all the way down as they fell, then chased the beast all the way to the top of the mountain and laid the smack down on him there.

Yeah right. Thing broke its neck in the fall. G only survived because he landed in a vat of bleach.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYeah right. Thing broke its neck in the fall. G only survived because he landed in a vat of bleach.

True. We only know what Gandalf said. He was careful not to push it too far and claim the Balrog begged for his life by offering fellatio or some such.

LOL, bleach.

It depends a lot on the style of the game. I could see shatter being allowed to destroy the bridge (50lbs of stone might be enough to crack the bridge and the Balrog's weight does the rest).

A Fly spell is sufficient for Gandalf to smack him all the way down--although you have to wonder why he didn't fly off of Orthanc then... maybe he didn't have it memorized?

What happens to a Balrog when he hits the water? The rules say water is an impassable barrier to a fire elemental, but are silent about immersion. Anyway, if you're the type of GM that just let Gandalf fight all the way down, you might also be the type who would suppress his "Burn" ability and ding the Balrog for some massive amount of damage... just enough for Gandalf to chase him down and smote all kinds of ruin on his ass.

Sounds awesome! Did I forget anything?

Quote from: cr0mWhat happens to a Balrog when he hits the water?

According to what Gandalf said, his fire was doused and he became slimy. He only burst into flame again once he and Gandalf came out on the peak of Zirak-zigil. How that translates into game terms, I don't know.

It's almost as if Tolkien didn't have a PHB handy.

Right, slimy. Well, as long as we're approximating a Balrog, it's not unreasonable to say "his fire is out for 4d6 rounds" and color it by saying he becomes slimy.

I draw your attention to:

The Battle of Gandalf vs. the Balrog

Now then.   Please.  Can we put away this nonsense about Gandalf being a measly rinky dinkiny 5th Level Magic User?   Please?  

He was 6th Level, you fools.  Clearly.

Cool little cut and paste job.

I think Gandalf was E6.