Actually what level was Jesus ?

He does some cure disease , create food and water, a raise dead, he can cast out spirits and do cure medium wounds lame legs and withered arms.
We don't see him do a lot of offensive magic though ..... maybe James had those bits left out to stop teh Romans killign all the Christians

Quote from: J Arcane;442808Cranky as in on crank?

No, cranky as in cranky.

QuoteHow the hell in any rational mind do you go from people debating Tolkien lore to "D&D players hate Tolkien"?

Through the awesome power of Syllogism.

Major premise: The 5th level Gandalf debate has been repeated so often, so vehemenently, and for such a long time; and some of the returning arguments are just so asinine; that any rational D&D fan would have left it behind long ago.

Minor premise: Some D&D fans have not left it behind long ago.

Conclusion: Some D&D fans are not rational.


At which point it's a guess as to why some* D&D fans are not rational, and I think my explanation is as good as any other I've seen so far. Not that anyone else has actual taken the time and trouble to offer one, mind you.

* Note my argument doesn't imply that all D&D fans are like this, so please don't try to put that word in my mouth like you did.

Or perhaps new people are perennially re-discovering an old argument.

Quote from: jibbajibba;442812Actually what level was Jesus ?

He does some cure disease , create food and water, a raise dead, he can cast out spirits and do cure medium wounds lame legs and withered arms.
We don't see him do a lot of offensive magic though ..... maybe James had those bits left out to stop teh Romans killign all the Christians

He's obviously a non-comabt style priest built from the 2e Complete Priests Handbook. What level is the Raise Dead Self spell?

Quote from: two_fishes;442814Or perhaps new people are perennially re-discovering an old argument.

... and don't really give much of a shit if it's not making much sense at all.

... and the same old asinine arguments.

EDIT: Damn, ninja'd.

Quote from: Premier;442817... and the same old asinine arguments.

Well some things are timeless.

It's not like it's something to get riled up about. I don't know, it's an inane subject of conversation like many others. Some people will like talking about it, others won't. I really don't know how it harms anybody, unless of course one starts to want to go on a huge theory about changing D&D to fit Tolkien. I don't think anybody in this thread ever said something like that, did they?

Quote from: jibbajibba;442812Actually what level was Jesus ?

He does some cure disease , create food and water, a raise dead, he can cast out spirits and do cure medium wounds lame legs and withered arms.
We don't see him do a lot of offensive magic though ..... maybe James had those bits left out to stop teh Romans killign all the Christians

He took at least one level of fighter, I seem to remember one story where he was quite handy with a whip (not exactly a cleric weapon, guess it depends on the edition).

Quote from: jibbajibba;442812Actually what level was Jesus ?

Actually Jesus is an easier stat-up than Gandalf, since so much of D&D's clerical magic is traditionally inspired by Biblical miracles. The cleric's focus on healing strikes me as very specifically Christian.

Quote from: Benoist;442816... and don't really give much of a shit if it's not making much sense at all.

I quite prefer it that way, really.

Quote from: Premier;442813Major premise: The 5th level Gandalf debate has been repeated so often, so vehemenently, and for such a long time; and some of the returning arguments are just so asinine; that any rational D&D fan would have left it behind long ago.

Calithena set the trap all the way back in 2007, and people still keep falling into it. You have to give props for that, and that doesn't even go into the staying power of Seligman's article. A blatant troll from 1977 (a year I wasn't even born yet), and it still keeps on going.

Quote from: Melan;442870Calithena set the trap all the way back in 2007, and people still keep falling into it. You have to give props for that, and that doesn't even go into the staying power of Seligman's article. A blatant troll from 1977 (a year I wasn't even born yet), and it still keeps on going.

I haven't even bothered with this thread.  I ran a Middle Earth game back in the early 80's, and I realized the problems (and solutions) back then.  I am only taking the time now as it relates to another conversation I am having.

This whole conversation is the ass-underside of Vreeg's First Rule.  
Vreeg's first Rule of Setting Design,
"Make sure the ruleset you are using matches the setting and game you want to play, because the setting and game WILL eventually match the system."

Playing Middle Earth as an RPG and D&D don't match.  Period.  It's actually a good illustration of this.  It's not that Gandalf is only 'X' level; it's that the language used to translate is totally innapropriate and unsuited.  

My only real WTF? moment in the OP and the other versions one reads is the monumental arrogance that exudes from the page.  The attitude that "we must shoehorn everything into D&D, and be amazed enough to write articles when it does not fit", when the proper response is, "Wow, this sure doesn't work together".  Or at least, " What houserules would we need to make this work at all?"

Quote from: Doom;442825He took at least one level of fighter, I seem to remember one story where he was quite handy with a whip (not exactly a cleric weapon, guess it depends on the edition).

really ? pretty sure I would remember that one .... good at being whipped that I can give you.

Quote from: Premier;442813rational D&D fan

I'm going to bag one of these right after I kill me a unicorn.