Quote from: Elfdart;442467I call bullshit on this. If Gandalf had anything as potent as a lightning bolt, fireball or even a couple of sleep spells, his party could have absolutely smoked the goblins in Moria instead of fighting the donnybrook they had in Balin's tomb.

If I were a Tolkien/Gandalf fanboy (and I'm not, thank goodness!) I'd prefer that Gandalf was just weak compared to other spellcasters in fiction. The idea that he was holding back because... well, because makes him seem like a douche nozzle.

I am a Tolkien/Gandalf fanboy, and I agree with this. There seems to be this weird assumption that because you're a demigod (or a demi-demigod, in the Maiar's case), then you ought to be able to make mountains explode, fly like superman and so on. The superhero/comics brand of a demigod, if you will. And that's something that I find puzzling, to be honest.

Personally, I'd stat Gandalf up as a high-level Bard variant. He has access to vast amounts of lore, leads and inspires others, fights in melee, and has magical powers.....though he doesn't display army-destroying artillery magic. That works for me.

Quote from: Elfdart;442467... If Gandalf had anything as potent as a lightning bolt, fireball or even a couple of sleep spells, his party could have absolutely smoked the goblins in Moria instead of fighting the donnybrook they had in Balin's tomb...

Well, in The Hobbit Gandalf does use a lightning bolt in his confrontation with the great goblin.  And when the party later is being chased by wargs, he uses something resembling 'fireballs' against them (enflamed pinecones, iirc; perhaps they're closer to fire 'magic missiles').

Magic in The Hobbit strikes me as more traditional or 'D&D-ish' than magic in LotR.

Gandalf is fucking full of excuses for not taking action or telling people what they need to know. He is also famous for tapping into every one else's weed stash.
Gandalf is an asshole.

Quote from: Akrasia;442555Well, in The Hobbit Gandalf does use a lightning bolt in his confrontation with the great goblin.  And when the party later is being chased by wargs, he uses something resembling 'fireballs' against them (enflamed pinecones, iirc; perhaps they're closer to fire 'magic missiles').

Magic in The Hobbit strikes me as more traditional or 'D&D-ish' than magic in LotR.

The pinecones sound like fire seeds -an absurdly high-level druid spell (absurd in that it's a 6th-level spell that is about as powerful as a 2nd-level spell: a whopping 2d8 in damage). Lightning bolt is still a 3rd-level spell and thus available to 5th-level magic-users.

What I find silly is the notion that Gandalf is way into double-digit levels in D&D terms. If that were the case, the goblins, trolls and even the Balrog should have been running away from him.

Imagine a wall of fire or cloudkill or any number of other 3rd to 5th-level spells being used against the orcs at Minas Tirith.

Quote from: Elfdart;442579Imagine a wall of fire or cloudkill or any number of other 3rd to 5th-level spells being used against the orcs at Minas Tirith.

Aah, cloudkill. If fireball is the nuke, cloudkill is the neutron bomb. I do have a couple of great memories of that spell...

Oh, for fuck's sake. Why is it that D&D nerds must always try to 'stat up' Gandalf & Co and then get into arguments over discrepancies? Wakey, wakey, people, The Lord of the Rings is not a fucking D&D novel! It doesn't map to the rules, not supposed to.

Why don't you all go and argue a bit about what level Dumbledore was, or Merlin, or Harry Dresden? They're all wizards, and they're all just as (not at all) meaningful to D&D as Gandalf.

Quote from: Premier;442597Oh, for fuck's sake. Why is it that D&D nerds must always try to 'stat up' Gandalf & Co and then get into arguments over discrepancies? Wakey, wakey, people, The Lord of the Rings is not a fucking D&D novel! It doesn't map to the rules, not supposed to.

Why don't you all go and argue a bit about what level Dumbledore was, or Merlin, or Harry Dresden? They're all wizards, and they're all just as (not at all) meaningful to D&D as Gandalf.

Maybe I will. I mean, Dragon Magazine used to publish stats for all kinds of fictional characters, as did D&DG. If you can list stats for Conan, Elric and others, why all the ass-hurt over Gandalf getting the same treatment?

What I find strange is people just assume Gandalf was a wizard in the same way characters in D&D were wizards (even though they were called magic-users).

Gandalf wasn't even human (or elf or dwarf or halfling for that matter). He had spell-like powers.

And I was always under the impression that spells in D&D were quite often imitations of powers present in 'monsters'.

Quote from: Elfdart;442612Maybe I will. I mean, Dragon Magazine used to publish stats for all kinds of fictional characters, as did D&DG. If you can list stats for Conan, Elric and others, why all the ass-hurt over Gandalf getting the same treatment?

Well, no one ever argues about how many magic user levels Conan had, and whether it was multi- or dual-classed, and how it could be multi if he was a human, do they? Just because, you know, he used magic in Beyond the Black River. And not a magic item, either - it was a right and proper casting.

So there you have something Conan canonically did and that cannot be possibly explained by D&D rules. But people are never arguing about that, it always must be Gandalf.

I've come to the conclusion that in fact it's some sort of subconscious malformed anti-Tolkien backlash because... hell, I don't know. Maybe because there was a time when Gary Gygax was extremely careful to distance himself from LotR and vocally claim the obvious falsehood that no, it was no inspiration at all. Then that message seeped into the consciousness of unreflecting D&D fanatics and got twisted into some sort of "Hurr, D&D Good, Tolkien Bad, hurr" sentiment. And one way of kicking LotR when you don't have the intellectual capacity to construct any actual criticism (or when there's no place for valid criticism in a given context) is to go and circlejerk about how "weak" it is. Because in the minds of socially outcast jock-harassed D&D nerds, being "weak" equates to some sort of all-encompassing existential inferiority, so let's claim LotR characters are weaker than our favourite characters Mr. Pyro the 16th level wizard and Gronk Dude the 15th level Barbarian, because that proves D&D is better and more mature than LotR. Hurr.

In other news, I'm feeling cranky this [strike]morning[/strike] afternoon.

Quote from: Premier;442637Well, no one ever argues about how many magic user levels Conan had, and whether it was multi- or dual-classed, and how it could be multi if he was a human, do they? Just because, you know, he used magic in Beyond the Black River. And not a magic item, either - it was a right and proper casting.

I remember quite a few people being up in arms over the stats assigned to Conan. Was he just a high-level fighter? a fighter/thief? The bickering was so constant that Gygax created the Barbarian class just so people could play Conan-like PCs.

QuoteSo there you have something Conan canonically did and that cannot be possibly explained by D&D rules. But people are never arguing about that, it always must be Gandalf.

Because people think of Conan as the ass-kicking, bad guy-slaying, babe-shagging, treasure stealing BAMF that he's made out to be in the novels, comic books and movies -not the guy who cast a spell in one book.

As far as Gandalf's stats are concerned, I wouldn't care were it not for some of the less intelligent fanboys insisting that he had to be 20-30th level in D&D terms. In D&D terms, his magic is roughly 5th-8th level with a rather limited spellbook, though he does appear to have some levels as a druid and a fighter, too. I don't consider this a flaw in the character or the story. Quite the opposite.

QuoteI've come to the conclusion that in fact it's some sort of subconscious malformed anti-Tolkien backlash because... hell, I don't know. Maybe because there was a time when Gary Gygax was extremely careful to distance himself from LotR and vocally claim the obvious falsehood that no, it was no inspiration at all.

Gygax never claimed it was no inspiration, just that it wasn't the main one and that he found LOTR a crashing bore.

QuoteThen that message seeped into the consciousness of unreflecting D&D fanatics and got twisted into some sort of "Hurr, D&D Good, Tolkien Bad, hurr" sentiment. And one way of kicking LotR when you don't have the intellectual capacity to construct any actual criticism (or when there's no place for valid criticism in a given context) is to go and circlejerk about how "weak" it is. Because in the minds of socially outcast jock-harassed D&D nerds, being "weak" equates to some sort of all-encompassing existential inferiority, so let's claim LotR characters are weaker than our favourite characters Mr. Pyro the 16th level wizard and Gronk Dude the 15th level Barbarian, because that proves D&D is better and more mature than LotR. Hurr.

That might be true for some, but not in my case. For starters, I was one of the jocks. Second, relative strength or weakness of a character means zilch as far as quality of story or quality of game is concerned. My favorite sorcerer in any movie or novel is still Ulric from Dragonslayer (played by Ralph Richardson). His magic (aside from some very limited divination and telekinesis) consisted of (a) having himself cremated and resurrected and (b) blowing himself up and in doing so, taking out a dragon. Overall, a mid-range spellcaster who used up all his power for two big-time spells.

Besides, most of my favorite game scenarios are for low to mid-level characters, where a few dozen goblins and a troll are a real threat.

QuoteIn other news, I'm feeling cranky this [strike]morning[/strike] afternoon.

Calm down; have some dip!

Funny how much nerd rage can be generated from an argument over how a fictional character in a book maps to a fictional game that has an entirely different setting and logical structures.

Oh and its obvious Gandalf is a 5th level Cleric with a ring of fire, a magic staff and the ability to use swords

but even more annoying how does superman turn back time in Superman 2 and wipe Lois Lane's memory. No where in his description in SC heroes does it list out those powers....

Quote from: jibbajibba;442710but even more annoying how does superman turn back time in Superman 2 and wipe Lois Lane's memory. No where in his description in SC heroes does it list out those powers....

It's doable in Icons
Icons pg 7:
Massive Cosmic Success
An effort of 15 or more is enough to achieve a massive success on a test of cosmic (10) difficulty; such a tremendous effort (which requires a decent combination of ability, luck, and determination to achieve at all) is worthy of special note. Essentially, any time you achieve a massive cosmic success, it can accomplish pretty much anything the Game Master is willing to allow: pushing the Earth out of orbit, causing time to flow backwards, pretty much anything you can convince the GM could possibly happen in the game. This depends heavily on the style of game the Game Master is running, and your own ability to make the whole thing sound like a lot of fun

Strictly speaking, in terms of Tolkien's world, Gandalf was actually some kind of angel.

In any case, I think we just have to accept at some point that D&D is not a great emulation for LoTR.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Aos;442578Gandalf is fucking full of excuses for not taking action or telling people what they need to know. He is also famous for tapping into every one else's weed stash.
Gandalf is an asshole.

Exactly.  His MO is all about avoiding actually doing anything himself, while getting other people to do it instead. Disappearing at the worst possible moments, then there's all the potential symbology in the Balrog thing, and so forth.

Gandalf is basically Jesus in a funny hat.  And part of that is knowing when to sling the miracles around.  

Quote from: Premier;442637In other news, I'm feeling cranky this [strike]morning[/strike] afternoon.

Cranky as in on crank?  Because that was some seriously crazy shit you just spouted there.  Maybe you should switch to mellower drugs.  How the hell in any rational mind do you go from people debating Tolkien lore to "D&D players hate Tolkien"?