Pelgrane Press just put up their list of GenCon seminars on their website, and this is their first event on Thursday afternoon:
"Thursday 1:00 PM – Gaming Saves the World
How do we translate our experiences as gamers into productive expression, activism & persuasion? Join us as we look at the map, hash out the tactics, & min-max our way out of the darkest timeline."
Is it just me, or does this sound like a bad idea? Political activism may be a good thing, but should we really try to instrumentalize the hobby as a tool for it? And what happens if someone uses their advice for the 'wrong' agenda? :)
Agree. Gaming is best seen as a relief from politics. I think we benefit from activities where people engage with people who don't necessarily share the same beliefs.
Quote from: Arminius;956189Agree. Gaming is best seen as a relief from politics. I think we benefit from activities where people engage with people who don't necessarily share the same beliefs.
The money quote is "min/max our way out of the darkest timeline". So either they mean...
1. Activist gaming to fix our gaming past based on the "dark side of the hobby" bullshit.
2. Activist gaming to fix the world Trump & Co. are going to create.
The first one is based on an idiotic view of gaming.
The second one is based on an idiotic view of how government works.
The only way these chuckleheads are going to get out of the Dystopia they see themselves living in is to get active in the real world, not the imaginary one at their tables, actually put some time in organizing with real people in the physical world, get everyone they know to register to vote and actually bother to show up on Election Day. Anything else is masturbation.
Only a ridiculously self-centered, selfish and privileged narcissist could think they could achieve political change through their entertainment and recreation choices.
*Sigh* I think I'll pass on fretting about this one. I'm tuckered out from rolling my eyes at this sort of thing on my side for more than two years now, and I'm biased in Pelgrane Press's favor anyway. Furthermore, last I checked Kenneth Hite politically leans 'sane right of center', so I don't think he's likely to sign off on anything truly noxious.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;956194*Sigh* I think I'll pass on fretting about this one. I'm tuckered out from rolling my eyes at this sort of thing on my side for more than two years now, and I'm biased in Pelgrane Press's favor anyway. Furthermore, last I checked Kenneth Hite politically leans 'sane right of center', so I don't think he's likely to sign off on anything truly noxious.
I like a lot of Pelgrane's stuff, and you've got a point about Hite. He may balance the fact that others with the company are more left-wing and/or ... fervent. (Tweet and Heinsoo were leaders in last fall's #gamers4her petition.)
Maybe it's that I'm a political outlier who's on the other side of where this kind of movement is likely to wind up, but it just feels like pumping gasoline into the fire.
Shouldn't this be in Pundit's forum?
Quote from: Voros;956200Shouldn't this be in Pundit's forum?
I went back and forth on it, but "industry gossip" goes here. If the mods want to move it, though, I won't complain.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;956186our way out of the darkest timeline."
"The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..."
Quote from: CRKrueger;956193The money quote is "min/max our way out of the darkest timeline".
It may be a tongue-in-cheek reference to the television series
Community (which I haven't watched, so I could be wrong).
QuoteThe only way these chuckleheads are going to get out of the Dystopia they see themselves living in is to get active in the real world, not the imaginary one at their tables, actually put some time in organizing with real people in the physical world, get everyone they know to register to vote and actually bother to show up on Election Day.
There's also contacting Representatives and Senators, and donating to political parties, campaigns, and advocacy groups.
QuoteOnly a ridiculously self-centered, selfish and privileged narcissist could think they could achieve political change through their entertainment and recreation choices.
I think you're unfairly overlooking the efficiency of having one's cake and eating it, too.
Quote from: CRKrueger;956193Only a ridiculously self-centered, selfish and privileged narcissist could think they could achieve political change through their entertainment and recreation choices.
STFU and drink your Pepsi.
:)
It sounds like a very bad idea indeed, but I'd like to know just what the hell they mean with it before I decide what to think. So far, all I'm getting from it is the standard ego-stroking "we're really good people and our nerdy obsessions are SUPER-RELEVANT!" thing that tends to float around all the time.
... admittedly, putting even more of that out there might qualify as a bad idea in and of itself. :p
I dont know, if people want to piss in the wind, and pat themselves on the back for it to compensate for millennial insecurities, leave em to it I say
Quote from: Tristram Evans;956225I dont know, if people want to piss in the wind, and pat themselves on the back for it to compensate for millennial insecurities, leave em to it I say
Problem is, the wind tends to spread the piss all over the place... :p
Or to step away from the disgusting metaphor, I would prefer to not run into this culture of smug piety whenever I want to read an interesting roleplaying discussion. But by now it seems to be so omnipresent that it's even odds that just when a discussion starts looking interesting, someone is going to turn up and start talking about how Problematic everything is, and then something I enjoyed will turn into something that annoys me. It's kind of like being halfway through a delicious piece of pie only to find in mid-bite that the other half has been sprinkled by...
... oh look, we somehow found our way back to the disgusting metaphor. :p *sighs*
Has it become a thing at GenCon, to be seen on panels that show off your PC street-cred? Kinda curious, but not enough to go look it up, what other 'stretch goals' the talks might be aiming at this year.
An alternative explanation for the seminar might be applying game theory and practices to activism ...
Which I believe is an approach already being used by Vox Day. :D
(Not a fan of VD's, but I can't help but appreciate the irony.)
Depends on who is doing what.
The US military and activist groups have been using simulation games for strategizing for decades. The idea of having gamers brainstorm might be semi-newish. Having gamers brainstorm, think and discuss the world's problems sounds like a mixed but overall good idea in general. Sure there will be a lot of BS, but I think gaming in general promotes problem solving, fresh creative approaches, thinking outside boxes, and so on, which is mostly good and needed.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;956186Pelgrane Press just put up their list of GenCon seminars on their website, and this is their first event on Thursday afternoon:
"Thursday 1:00 PM – Gaming Saves the World
How do we translate our experiences as gamers into productive expression, activism & persuasion? Join us as we look at the map, hash out the tactics, & min-max our way out of the darkest timeline."
I would rather eat a light bulb.
Quote from: Simlasa;956264Has it become a thing at GenCon, to be seen on panels that show off your PC street-cred? Kinda curious, but not enough to go look it up, what other 'stretch goals' the talks might be aiming at this year.
Gencon, Pax and other cons. Yes.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;956282I would rather eat a light bulb.
I laughed out loud for real. :)
I'm not sure what they expect to gain by such an event, but free speech and all that. Seems rather silly, but, hey, no one need show up.
Shrug. Mostly sounds boring.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;956186Pelgrane Press just put up their list of GenCon seminars on their website, and this is their first event on Thursday afternoon:
"Thursday 1:00 PM – Gaming Saves the World
How do we translate our experiences as gamers into productive expression, activism & persuasion? Join us as we look at the map, hash out the tactics, & min-max our way out of the darkest timeline."
Is it just me, or does this sound like a bad idea? Political activism may be a good thing, but should we really try to instrumentalize the hobby as a tool for it? And what happens if someone uses their advice for the 'wrong' agenda? :)
Radicalized Democrats love to control other people, both in games and in real life. The seminar fits perfect for their agenda. The point is, will Kenneth Hite be on the panel, and was it his idea?
Quote from: cranebump;956323I'm not sure what they expect to gain by such an event, but free speech and all that. Seems rather silly, but, hey, no one need show up.[b/]
This is the problem with the colonialheteronormativecapitalisticpatriarchy. Such seminars should be mandatory for participation in GenCon. /s (half slash s. The next step is making this stuff mandatory.)
Yeah, that's why the Dems lost the election, not nearly enough elfgaming going on.
If you think something's off with the world, go out and fight it. Vote, proselitize, write, protest. This is not a fucking game.
But as cranebump said, free speech and all.
I have screwed on my Devil's Advocate cock ring.
Thus, let me ask, is there any possibility we are misinterpreting what the seminar is about?
Could there be another rational interpretation?
And if not, is this kind of politicization and polarization at GenCon something new? Or the next step in a trend?
Since politics is now incredibly divisive, with people's faces turning beet-red at the drop of a hat, let's bring it into every aspect of recreation, especially when we gather with strangers for a bit of dice-rolling.
Quote from: Spinachcat;956361I have screwed on my Devil's Advocate cock ring.
Thus, let me ask, is there any possibility we are misinterpreting what the seminar is about?
Could there be another rational interpretation?
Oh, sure. If someone posts an update that's not about SJW nonsensery, then I'll happily retract my snark.
Quote from: Spinachcat;956361I have screwed on my Devil's Advocate cock ring.
Thus, let me ask, is there any possibility we are misinterpreting what the seminar is about?
Could there be another rational interpretation?
And if not, is this kind of politicization and polarization at GenCon something new? Or the next step in a trend?
It's possible sure. If it's something like..."Look, you're gamers, which means you're probably somewhat imaginative and fairly good at problem solving so go do that in real life and get off the goddamn internet and exert influence outside social media", then I guess that could be a good thing.
Not holding my breath.
Quote from: Baeraad;956230Or to step away from the disgusting metaphor, I would prefer to not run into this culture of smug piety whenever I want to read an interesting roleplaying discussion. But by now it seems to be so omnipresent that it's even odds that just when a discussion starts looking interesting, someone is going to turn up and start talking about how Problematic everything is, and then something I enjoyed will turn into something that annoys me.
I'm going to be another devil's advocate here. This is my personal experience only, so it might not be representative. However, I for one know of one RPG website (we all know the one) where smug piety and/or discussions of problematics or whatever routinely happen, one website (this one) where people routinely post references to said things in order to get mad about them, and a dozen or so sites where people mostly just talk RPGs (still a lot of hue and cry, but mostly of the 'no, my favorite system is better' variety). I really think this identity politics in RPGs (and/or resistance there-to) is really only omnipresent if one is actively seeking it.
Quote from: Gronan of SimmeryaShrug. Mostly sounds boring.
Pretty much.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;956413I'm going to be another devil's advocate here. This is my personal experience only, so it might not be representative. However, I for one know of one RPG website (we all know the one) where smug piety and/or discussions of problematics or whatever routinely happen, one website (this one) where people routinely post references to said things in order to get mad about them, and a dozen or so sites where people mostly just talk RPGs (still a lot of hue and cry, but mostly of the 'no, my favorite system is better' variety). I really think this identity politics in RPGs (and/or resistance there-to) is really only omnipresent if one is actively seeking it.
I would be most grateful for links to such apolitical sites. :)
But personally I can think of, hmm... five all-purpose (as in, not devoted solely to a specific game) RPG sites all in all, and four of them seem to be based on regular competitions about who can be the most righteously outraged that we don't live in the United Federation of Planets yet. (the fifth, as you noted, is based on regular competitions on who can be the most annoyed at the outrage. :p )
Quote from: Willie the Duck;956413I really think this identity politics in RPGs (and/or resistance there-to) is really only omnipresent if one is actively seeking it.
I wish that were so. I'd be happy as a clam if I could put all this activism nonsense behind me, and just talk about gaming. But it crept up and now it's fucking everywhere. If you're finding places on the internet where you can get away from this stuff, more power to you.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;956353This is the problem with the colonialheteronormativecapitalisticpatriarchy. Such seminars should be mandatory for participation in GenCon. /s (half slash s. The next step is making this stuff mandatory.)
So, you can't join the group until you attend the groupthink session?
Quote from: cranebump;956475So, you can't join the group until you attend the groupthink session?
Of course! We prefer to call it goodthink though.
Quote from: The Butcher;956359Yeah, that's why the Dems lost the election, not nearly enough elfgaming going on.
If you think something's off with the world, go out and fight it. Vote, proselitize, write, protest. This is not a fucking game.
But as cranebump said, free speech and all.
Maybe, though I think gerrymandering has a LOT to do with Republican success these days. You have states where 40-45%% of the population voted for a DEM, but then you'll have 12 of 16 districts with a 'pub. It's especially bad in Texas, where they carve up the minority vote. As for the Presidency, well, Electoral college, right?
Anyway, that stuff is neither here not there, because, as you said, "Elfgame!" It's just fruitless to politicize everything. You end up casting well-meaning folks as ogres, whether you intended to or not.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;956477Of course! We prefer to call it goodthink though.
Ha! Nice...:)
Quote from: Ratman_tf;956477Of course! We prefer to call it goodthink though.
Be extra careful once it's called doublethink. :(
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;956505Be extra careful once it's called doublethink. :(
Ratman does doublegoodthink...with a twist of lemon...
It's ironic they want to wear their ideology on their sleeve 24/7. We all have our views and beliefs. But guess what? We could all sit down, put away our self-righteousness, play our silly elfgame, and find out there's more to us than our political views, maybe leading us to find what we have in common.
I suppose, though, that that's not worthy of a panel discussion...
Quote from: cranebump;956514It's ironic they want to wear their ideology on their sleeve 24/7. We all have our views and beliefs. But guess what? We could all sit down, put away our self-righteousness, play our silly elfgame, and find out there's more to us than our political views, maybe leading us to find what we have in common.
I suppose, though, that that's not worthy of a panel discussion...
Brilliantly put, sir.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;956434...But it crept up and now it's fucking everywhere. If you're finding places on the internet where you can get away from this stuff, more power to you.
That's your problem right there, interact and game in 'meatspace' more and you'll find most of the drama and angst of the net notably absent.
Quote from: Voros;956558That's your problem right there, interact and game in 'meatspace' more and you'll find most of the drama and angst of the net notably absent.
Oh, the actual gaming isn't a problem, in my experience - once people sit down to play they tend to be able to put their personal crap aside, even online.
No, it's reading about and talking about gaming that's turned into a minefield. And since that's the sort of thing that I like to do as personal relaxation in my own time, blowing a ton of my limited time and energy to go somewhere and talk to people in person (even assuming that I could find somewhere to do that) isn't a valid substitute.
Quote from: Voros;956558That's your problem right there, interact and game in 'meatspace' more and you'll find most of the drama and angst of the net notably absent.
How much? I play X-Wing Miniatures competitively, and I have the occasional RPG session with friends.
Last time I played Dark Sun at my local gaming pub, the table next to us was chatting about polititcs. I had to intentionally tune them out in order to enjoy my game. I live in the Pacific Northwest, and while I will grant you that it's
usually not a problem, there is this kind of general tone underlying most of my interactions at work and in the public. Especially at work. I've had to stay silent as co-workers espounded about male privilige, colonialism and all the usual feminist activist type stuff.
It's mostly not a problem because I swallow my thoughts and keep them to myself. Not because it doesn't come up.
Quote from: Voros;956200Shouldn't this be in Pundit's forum?
I agree. All the political crap should go there.
The thing that bugs me about just about every one of these stunts is that it increasingly tends to not really be about equality. (And some of these jokers idea of equality is anything but.) It is about turning someone into a status trophy.
Quote from: Baeraad;956414I would be most grateful for links to such apolitical sites. :)
But personally I can think of, hmm... five all-purpose (as in, not devoted solely to a specific game) RPG sites all in all, and four of them seem to be based on regular competitions about who can be the most righteously outraged that we don't live in the United Federation of Planets yet. (the fifth, as you noted, is based on regular competitions on who can be the most annoyed at the outrage. :p )
Dragonsfoot is good. SJWs and anti-SJWs both get shut down. Occasionally they let clever SJWs who can posit a good frame (as to why their particular bit of SJWing is a legitimate topic) run on for a bit, but mostly they catch it fast.
Quote from: S'mon;956945Dragonsfoot is good. SJWs and anti-SJWs both get shut down. Occasionally they let clever SJWs who can posit a good frame (as to why their particular bit of SJWing is a legitimate topic) run on for a bit, but mostly they catch it fast.
Man, now that I think about it, you're dead on. I don't jump on DF as often as I used to, but in the time I did, I never caught a whiff of the political anywhere. It's pretty much what it says it is -- a site devoted to older systems (and their retroclones and such).
Quote from: cranebump;956985Man, now that I think about it, you're dead on. I don't jump on DF as often as I used to, but in the time I did, I never caught a whiff of the political anywhere. It's pretty much what it says it is -- a site devoted to older systems (and their retroclones and such).
Does it have much of a posting base for games besides D&D?
Quote from: Tristram Evans;956999Does it have much of a posting base for games besides D&D?
The 'Other Games' forum is fairly active and covers non-D&D as well as modern D&D - http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=20 - and I've NEVER seen any political/SJW stuff there. :)
Quote from: S'mon;957024The 'Other Games' forum is fairly active and covers non-D&D as well as modern D&D - http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=20 - and I've NEVER seen any political/SJW stuff there. :)
I'll check it out. I tried Circus Maximus for a bit, but it didn't take.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;956599Last time I played Dark Sun at my local gaming pub, the table next to us was chatting about polititcs. I had to intentionally tune them out in order to enjoy my game...
I live in the Pacific Northwest, and while I will grant you that it's usually not a problem, there is this kind of general tone underlying most of my interactions at work and in the public.
Wait, so you worry about what strangers in a table next to you in a pub jaw on about? No wonder you're in such a state of agitation.
And as for work, any self-respecting manager tells employees to keep conversations on religion, politics and sex out of the workplace. Of course you can't help what they may babble on about outside of your presence...
Quote from: S'mon;957024The 'Other Games' forum is fairly active and covers non-D&D as well as modern D&D - http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=20 - and I've NEVER seen any political/SJW stuff there. :)
Hmm, interesting. I'll check it out too.
Quote from: Voros;957031And as for work, any self-respecting manager tells employees to keep conversations on religion, politics and sex out of the workplace. Of course you can't help what they may babble on about outside of your presence...
Yes, we absolutely have that rule in my office. But if they actually wanted to enforce it, they'd need to fire about three quarters of the work force. :p
Enworld, while not usually a grand font of wisdom, is pretty apolitical (in the gaming forums, I have no idea about their general topic section). Giants in the Playground is pretty heavily skewed towards 3e and 5e D&D, so not much use to many here, but also has no clear political leanings. Among non-general and non-D&D sites, both Citizens of the Imperium (for Traveller) and the Hero System forums don't get into politics.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;957069Enworld, while not usually a grand font of wisdom, is pretty apolitical (in the gaming forums, I have no idea about their general topic section). Giants in the Playground is pretty heavily skewed towards 3e and 5e D&D, so not much use to many here, but also has no clear political leanings. Among non-general and non-D&D sites, both Citizens of the Imperium (for Traveller) and the Hero System forums don't get into politics.
Enw was apolitical, then they decided that stopping sjw feminist activism was "incredibly offensive to women". Weirdly they maintain the no-politics stance in other areas of sjw activity such as race.
But the density of sjw stuff is far less than rpg.net and unless they are running a "season of sexism" it can usually be avoided.
Quote from: Voros;957031Wait, so you worry about what strangers in a table next to you in a pub jaw on about? No wonder you're in such a state of agitation.
What do I have your permission to worry about then?
I personally have a no-politics and no controversial topics policy at my gaming table. I don't slap people in the face with it, I just try to steer table discussion towards the game when such topics do come up. I don't have control over other tables though. I wouldn't call it agitation. Mostly annoyance.
QuoteAnd as for work, any self-respecting manager tells employees to keep conversations on religion, politics and sex out of the workplace. Of course you can't help what they may babble on about outside of your presence...
And so we do for the most part. I'm not going to get into specifics, but there are times when we are at work, but the situation becomes less "formal" and that's when the topics usually come up. As I said before, so far it's mostly annoyance.
My point is, it's out there in "meatspace".
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;956186"Thursday 1:00 PM – Gaming Saves the World
How do we translate our experiences as gamers into productive expression, activism & persuasion? Join us as we look at the map, hash out the tactics, & min-max our way out of the darkest timeline."
Is it just me, or does this sound like a bad idea?
Sounds sarcastic to me.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;956282I would rather eat a light bulb.
Coincidentally enough the world record holder is a personal friend of mine.
And yes, you are right.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;957112What do I have your permission to worry about then?
My point is, it's out there in "meatspace".
A) Worrying about what strangers at another table as discussing is OTT, sorry for pointing out the obvious.
B) No kidding. It is just much less likely to be in-your-face, as rude and dogmatic as what you encounter on the net. Do you think the posters here would be as full of nerdragemacho if we were actually face-to-face?
Quote from: Willie the Duck;957069Giants in the Playground is pretty heavily skewed towards 3e and 5e D&D, so not much use to many here, but also has no clear political leanings.
Mmmmm, it's better than some places to be sure, but the frequency of Let's-All-Get-Outraged style thread topics isn't reassuring. And I don't trust the guy in charge since he became a born-again feminist. Look, it's like I said on the last page. You've gotten it through your head that treating "Woman" as one of a large number of possible character classes that you can apply humerous stereotypes to is not a great thing to do? You want to be more equal and inclusive now? That's great! That's awesome! Sure, you took your sweet time getting there, but still, good on you! Now, if you could just
stop lording it over those of us who had reached that point by the time we were twenty, that'd be great. Repentant sinners have no business setting themselves up as prophets preaching to the rest of us of how awful we are - yet invariably that seems to be what they do. :mad:
/rant
Quote from: Voros;957206Do you think the posters here would be as full of nerdragemacho if we were actually face-to-face?
Definitely not, but on the other hand, real life doesn't have a block function or the option of clicking on a different bookmark and disappearing from an annoying discussion instantly. And some people really
are barrels of nerdragemacho even when face to face - and they tend to be the ones with the loudest and most annoying voices, too! :p
Quote from: Voros;957206A) Worrying about what strangers at another table as discussing is OTT, sorry for pointing out the obvious.
B) No kidding. It is just much less likely to be in-your-face, as rude and dogmatic as what you encounter on the net. Do you think the posters here would be as full of nerdragemacho if we were actually face-to-face?
We probably wouldn't be, if in real life you do your "I'm too cool for whatever you want to talk about, even though I apparently want to talk about it too" act you shit all over every thread here where someone says something you don't like.
Some of the regulars here sure are a sensitive bunch of internet tough guys.
And in terms of shitting all over a thread because someone says something you don't like, talk about living in a glass house and throwing stones. How many of your posts are of the 'you don't know shit about RPGs!' variety. The torrent of negativity from the usual suspects on the simplest threads would be hilarious if it wasn't so tiresome and predictable.
Quote from: Baeraad;957214Mmmmm, it's better than some places to be sure, but the frequency of Let's-All-Get-Outraged style thread topics isn't reassuring...Now, if you could just stop lording it over those of us who had reached that point by the time we were twenty, that'd be great...
...And some people really are barrels of nerdragemacho even when face to face - and they tend to be the ones with the loudest and most annoying voices, too! :p
We have a few too many Let's-All-Get-Outraged style threads here, just with a different political bent, in fact I'd say the OP qualifies as exactly that. But at least most of it is kept in the Pundit's forum.
I very much agree on the second point regarding those who seem to have just discovered that sexism, misogyny, racism or classism exists as adults and assume that everyone else is as clueless as they use to be.
Thankfully I haven't encountered a nerdragemacho specimen as you describe in real life, I would wonder how they could get through life without being punched out.
Quote from: Baeraad;957214Mmmmm, it's better than some places to be sure, but the frequency of Let's-All-Get-Outraged style thread topics isn't reassuring. And I don't trust the guy in charge since he became a born-again feminist. Look, it's like I said on the last page. You've gotten it through your head that treating "Woman" as one of a large number of possible character classes that you can apply humerous stereotypes to is not a great thing to do? You want to be more equal and inclusive now? That's great! That's awesome! Sure, you took your sweet time getting there, but still, good on you! Now, if you could just stop lording it over those of us who had reached that point by the time we were twenty, that'd be great. Repentant sinners have no business setting themselves up as prophets preaching to the rest of us of how awful we are - yet invariably that seems to be what they do.
Generally speaking, an asshat is an asshat regardless of their philosophy or religion. In most cases any ethical concerns adopted by them are treated as just another weapon in their asshat arsenal.
Quote from: Baeraad;957214Mmmmm, it's better than some places to be sure, but the frequency of Let's-All-Get-Outraged style thread topics isn't reassuring. And I don't trust the guy in charge since he became a born-again feminist. Look, it's like I said on the last page. You've gotten it through your head that treating "Woman" as one of a large number of possible character classes that you can apply humerous stereotypes to is not a great thing to do? You want to be more equal and inclusive now? That's great! That's awesome! Sure, you took your sweet time getting there, but still, good on you! Now, if you could just stop lording it over those of us who had reached that point by the time we were twenty, that'd be great. Repentant sinners have no business setting themselves up as prophets preaching to the rest of us of how awful we are - yet invariably that seems to be what they do. :mad:
/rant
Here's the thing- I don't see the in-your-face. I've been on that site for years and was able to not even know that. It must be in the open topics or similar forum, right? I can go into the 3e or 5e (or others, although the volumes there are low) forum sections there and have a perfectly useful discussion about
playing D&D, which is all I'm there for. I do not care that others have differing political opinions than I. In fact I
hope that the people that I'm discussing D&D (and RPGs in general, but with GitP, it's pretty much just D&D) with have all the differing political opinions in the world, because that means that the game isn't just being played by half the potential people it could be for reasons that have nothing to do with the game. If I can go there, and post a question about how people handle encumbrance, or if others think slow, armored dwarves with axes are iconic or cliché, or whatever, then it has met my needs, regardless of the site owner's politics.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;957238Here's the thing- I don't see the in-your-face. I've been on that site for years and was able to not even know that. It must be in the open topics or similar forum, right? I can go into the 3e or 5e (or others, although the volumes there are low) forum sections there and have a perfectly useful discussion about playing D&D
I can pretty much do that in the RPGnet d20 forum. The occasional trap threads are pretty obvious. RPG General forum not so much - I got a ban for "insulting Vietnam War Veterans", I think it was. :D
Quote from: Voros;957231Some of the regulars here sure are a sensitive bunch of internet tough guys.
Says the guy who can't make an argument without letting everyone know how much actually posting to the topic, or even the forum itself is beneath him...as he keeps posting and posting for some reason. ;). Get banned somewhere, didya?
Quote from: Voros;957231if it wasn't so tiresome and predictable.
Like we've never seen "too good to post" posters before. :rolleyes: Every post
other people make is nerdrage, concern trolling, obsession, toughguy posturing, done in a fit of madness, etc... while every post you make, of course, is full of sneering disdain at having to stoop to post..yet you keep doing it...but it doesn't mean you're interested of course...
Talk about fucking internet cliches.
Quote from: Voros;957235Thankfully I haven't encountered a nerdragemacho specimen as you describe in real life, I would wonder how they could get through life without being punched out.
In the case of one particular coworker of mine (I swear, he's like a living blog!), it's solely because I am afraid of getting fired and/or arrested. :p
Quote from: Willie the Duck;957238Here's the thing- I don't see the in-your-face. I've been on that site for years and was able to not even know that.
Mmm. Well, perhaps I'm too quick to assume the worst - I haven't spent enough time there to really get a feel for the place.
Regarding the OP rather than politics in different forums -
I generally don't think that RPG material is effective at directly causing political change. I do think that RPGs can have positive real-world change - because the hobby is active and often encourages reading, learning, problem-solving, teamwork, and imagination. On the other hand, many politically-charged projects seem like preaching to the converted.
While that's my opinion, it's potentially worth discussing - if it's with people who are willing to actually discuss, and not simply spout their views without listening. There are those who feel that internal activity can serve to teach people, raise consciousness, or other political goals - and that could be for either conservative or liberal causes.
The post sounds on the tongue-in-cheek side to me. If they are willing to hear objections and other views, it could be OK - but it could also be filled with jerks and/or zealots.
Quote from: Simlasa;956264Has it become a thing at GenCon, to be seen on panels that show off your PC street-cred? Kinda curious, but not enough to go look it up, what other 'stretch goals' the talks might be aiming at this year.
Last year Gen Con made a big deal about the "diversity" of the Feature Presenters ("Now with 50% females!" "Look, Industry Insider of Color!"). Should be interesting if they keep that line of marketing for 2017.
Quote from: Voros;957206A) Worrying about what strangers at another table as discussing is OTT, sorry for pointing out the obvious.
Me frowning at someone else's table discussion is OTT? Okey.
QuoteB) No kidding. It is just much less likely to be in-your-face, as rude and dogmatic as what you encounter on the net. Do you think the posters here would be as full of nerdragemacho if we were actually face-to-face?
Depends on the poster.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;957237Generally speaking, an asshat is an asshat regardless of their philosophy or religion. In most cases any ethical concerns adopted by them are treated as just another weapon in their asshat arsenal.
Can't speak for others, but in my case what you see is what you get. At last GaryCon in my OD&D game somebody put on his character card "Name unpronounceable by humans" so I promptly dubbed him "Turd Bucket."
Quote from: CRKrueger;957255Every post other people make is nerdrage, concern trolling, obsession, toughguy posturing, done in a fit of madness, etc...
Damn...you covered every single one of basic impulses. Except beer.:-)
Quote from: jhkim;957271Regarding the OP rather than politics in different forums -
I generally don't think that RPG material is effective at directly causing political change. I do think that RPGs can have positive real-world change - because the hobby is active and often encourages reading, learning, problem-solving, teamwork, and imagination. On the other hand, many politically-charged projects seem like preaching to the converted.
This brings up the general effectiveness of any artform in creating political change. It is a tricky question and in general people I think overate it but it can't be completely dismissed either.
We probably all know the guy who is a punk rock lover of DK with far right views, listens to reggae or soul but is rabidly racist or a extreme but oft cited example those who worked in the death camps and went home to listen to Mozart and read Goethe. Or on the other political spectrum Lenin was a huge admirer of Tolstoy while he starved and murdered Russian peasants.
But then there's no denying the political impact of Birth of a Nation in helping revive the KKK and the tie between soul music and the civil rights movement.
One of the ironies of those who believe in using pop culture music to political ends is we've had 50 decades at least of 'progressive' popular music but that hasn't prevented Nixon or Reagan winning in a landslide. Too often the Left in the US obsess on the politics of pop culture and seem to leave the real world politics to the right.
Clearly these panels are preaching to the converted. Just as on Facebook and similar venues, you will encounter an unending stream of more or less progressive content served up to those who agree with these values, much of it outrage-bait, while the more right-leaning folks, who are perhaps just short of 50% of the US population, simply don't engage in as much of this.
So in social media, traditional media, pop culture, and now things like Gen Con panels, we have a form of capture by loud-talking left-leaners and a retreat by conservatives who mostly go silent or into ghettoes. This has been happening for decades. The result is great shock among progressives when the true numbers of non-believers is revealed, as in Brexit, Trump or even the plummeting sales of "diverse" Marvel comics.
Generally, the right doesn't make trouble, get violent etc, despite all the mischaracterisation. Will they one one day? In pop culture, thankfully right now there is still plenty of choice. If you want progressive comics, video or tabletop games you can have them, if you want traditional stuff not based on identity politics you've still got them.
Quote from: Voros;957316This brings up the general effectiveness of any artform in creating political change. It is a tricky question and in general people I think overate it but it can't be completely dismissed either.
The power of art is in its interpretation, and the message changes with the #Zeitgeist. And art targeted to the converted simply validates their views, not change them. Finally, ever notice how icons of real world rebels are used in any rebellion regardless of what they actually did or stood for? All they'll remember is that one stood against many...
The war is not fought with art, the war is fought over what art
means.
Quote from: The_Shadow;957328Clearly these panels are preaching to the converted. Just as on Facebook and similar venues, you will encounter an unending stream of more or less progressive content served up to those who agree with these values, much of it outrage-bait, while the more right-leaning folks, who are perhaps just short of 50% of the US population, simply don't engage in as much of this.
Based on the actual voting trends it seems actual the numbers are about 10% Neo-Puritan (aka the SJW's; offended at the notion that someone somewhere might actually be happy), 8-12% Deplorable (aka vocal Anti-SJW; number variable with where we are in the inevitable Neo-Puritan cycle of self-destruction) and 78-82% "Look Here's a Funny Cat Video/Porn" (aka the "Leave Us the Fuck Alone" crowd). The vast majority of the Deplorable crowd are just Funny Cat Video folks who got pestered enough by the Neo-Puritans to motivate them to retaliate. The biggest problem the Neo-Puritan crowd has is they literally do not understand how to stop pestering and so drive more and more of the FCV's into the Deplorable camp as their version of happiness is declared 'unacceptable' by the wet blanket brigade.
This will continue until enough Funny Cat Video types have been driven into the Deplorable camp to drive the Neo-Puritans back into their bubble-like enclaves. Then the Deplorables will go back to watching Funny Cat Videos (which is all they wanted to do in the first place) while the Neo-Puritans, remaining utterly convinced that they are the only ones who know how to properly run everyone else's lives, begin the process of finding new way to annoy the Funny Cat Video people all over again.
MODS!! Please damn this thread to Pungency!!I like Chris's voting thread breakdown, and I will discuss it when this thread leaves the main RPG forum.
I see some of what Voros (and others) are saying. We all (with myself first in line) should only start any potential political smelling thread in Pundit's forum and keep the Main Forum purely focused on arguing life and death emergencies in our all important elf pretending!
Quote from: Ratman_tf;957112What do I have your permission to worry about then?
Thank you for asking. I'm assigning you "Mercury in sushi."
I'm too addicted to sushi and sashimi to worry about it myself, but I'm told its really, really bad so I'm delegating it to you.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;957307At last GaryCon in my OD&D game somebody put on his character card "Name unpronounceable by humans" so I promptly dubbed him "Turd Bucket."
Put that in your book!!!
Quote from: Voros;957316This brings up the general effectiveness of any artform in creating political change.
Artforms have a great amount of sway to alter public opinion. For example, its impossible to underrate the effect of the film Philadelphia on galvanizing the public towards the cause of gay rights.
On the other hand, playing games of make believe is
not an artform.
Quote from: Spinachcat;957456MODS!! Please damn this thread to Pungency!!
(http://i.imgur.com/RZQOxc6.gif)
I second this motion, and I feel the same about the Green Ronin one, for the record.
Quote from: jhkimI do think that RPGs can have positive real-world change - because the hobby is active and often encourages reading, learning, problem-solving, teamwork, and imagination.
It also encourages things like 'dangerous' probing looks at the lessons of actual history and why societies work the way they do rather than the way we wish they would.
Quote from: The_Shadow;957328Clearly these panels are preaching to the converted. Just as on Facebook and similar venues, you will encounter an unending stream of more or less progressive content served up to those who agree with these values, much of it outrage-bait, while the more right-leaning folks, who are perhaps just short of 50% of the US population, simply don't engage in as much of this.
If you're seeing that in social media like Facebook that's because the people you follow are lefties, if you had more right wing friends that's what you'd be seeing. i.e. if you care that much get new friends.
What happened to the new mod anyway?
Quote from: S'mon;957253I can pretty much do that in the RPGnet d20 forum. The occasional trap threads are pretty obvious. RPG General forum not so much - I got a ban for "insulting Vietnam War Veterans", I think it was. :D
Reminds me of a warning or suspension I got - I pointed out that in the Vietnam War, 18,000 American male conscripts died, and no females. In my view, this should somewhat color ideas of the "evils of sexism" in the period, which was the matter under discussion. But the mod informed me that citing this fact amounted to calling for the deaths of women :D
Quote from: Warboss Squee;957484What happened to the new mod anyway?
Yeah seems like the inmates are running the asylum.
Quote from: The_Shadow;957500Reminds me of a warning or suspension I got - I pointed out that in the Vietnam War, 18,000 American male conscripts died, and no females. In my view, this should somewhat color ideas of the "evils of sexism" in the period, which was the matter under discussion. But the mod informed me that citing this fact amounted to calling for the deaths of women :D
RPGnet moderators are truly some of the loveliest, most charming people you could ever hope to meet.
Quote from: The_Shadow;957500Reminds me of a warning or suspension I got - I pointed out that in the Vietnam War, 18,000 American male conscripts died, and no females. In my view, this should somewhat color ideas of the "evils of sexism" in the period, which was the matter under discussion. But the mod informed me that citing this fact amounted to calling for the deaths of women :D
Link? I could use a chuckle.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;957600Link? I could use a chuckle.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?762283-Question-regarding-AD-amp-D-sexism&p=19239775#post19239775
Well, to be fair, this forum includes the topics of thr RPG Industry and Industry Gossip. As long as you have game designers preaching their Fundamentalist Left Religion through RPG products and how they run their company, it's going to be an awful close line between the act and the belief behind it.
Threads that deal with political statements or elements of politics DIRECTLY in the gaming hobby are allowed on the main forum, as long as they STAY ON TOPIC. I ask anyone who posts in them to STICK to talking about the subject at hand, and not veering off into discussions about gerrymandering or the larger political climate or abortion or trans-bathrooms or whatever.
That said, I think this thread has run its course, so I'm just going to close it. If someone felt there was more to say about the specific subject at hand, they're welcome to open a new thread, with the same rules I explained just now.