Quote from: Arduin;707539If you are sitting around trying to figure out meta info to point of making a game of it, you are talking about playing under a piss poor GM that can't hold your attention.  That is de facto..

Okay, I agree with your point, as my mini-game comment was meant as snark more than to paint a picture of players arduously consulting their abacus to determine the AC of an opponent.

Quote from: Rincewind1;707527Basically, Kai is one logical step away from claiming that reading Monster Manual and using that knowledge beforehand to plan your strategy in game isn't metagaming, and I've had that discussion before, thank you very much.

And yeah, GM hasn't a "right" to you as a player, neither you have an inborn "right" to be a player. And personally, if any player ever demands from me knowledge of mechanics in regard to the encounter, I'll execute my right as a person to tell him to take a hike.

Ayup.

Quite often the statistics of things will not be found in a monster manual. Just because a monster's stats are created by the DM doesn't mean they were created on the spot just to fuck over a player.

If a player demands to know where the stats for a particular critter comes from I will be happy to honestly report the location as being straight from my ass. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Bill;707541I thought this was worth a seperate response.

"I will not tolerate illusory bullshit of GMs shifting stats and cheating because it matches their "personal vision" (which has happened to me far too many times)"

So isn't that just a bad gm? Wouldn't that same bad gm still be an asshat even if he followed the rules?

I really don't see how a gm using raw rules makes him a gm you would want to play with.

Why not just leave the games of bad gms?

I'd actually ask a much bigger question, what is exactly "cheating by changing monster stats", as I've encountered a player who started calling bullshit on me because I gave a Bloodletter of Khorne wings, and everyone knows Daemons of Chaos are produced by Chinese factory workers, who make every single one the same as in the game's manual.

If a red dragon starts breathing acid, and your character knows jack & all about dragons, tough titties. Shouldn't been snooping around Monster Manual anyway. Again, this is trying to claim that OOC knowledge of mechanics in regard to encountered dangers is IC knowledge. There is IC knowledge of monsters, which can often be also expressed by mechanical language (and some GM do that, I don't, as I personally prefer that less mechanics talked, the more immersive the game feels), but OOC mechanical language isn't all expressed by IC language.

Quote from: FickleGM;707545Okay, I agree with your point, as my mini-game comment was meant as snark more than to paint a picture of players arduously consulting their abacus to determine the AC of an opponent.

Sure.   I mean if your 10th level fighter just hit it on 7. Are you REALLY trying to figure it out?  Unless the PC wouldn't have a good idea I tell it to the players for MY sake.  Less work for me.  But, there ARE times when it isn't appropriate for the players to know.  I sandbox so what you see is what you get.  I never change something behind the scenes to save or, screw the party...

The players can purchase all the rope they want on their own.  

Quote from: Rincewind1;707547I'd actually ask a much bigger question, what is exactly "cheating by changing monster stats", as I've encountered a player who started calling bullshit on me because I gave a Bloodletter of Khorne wings, and everyone knows Daemons of Chaos are produced by Chinese factory workers, who make every single one the same as in the game's manual.

If a red dragon starts breathing acid, and your character knows jack & all about dragons, tough titties. Shouldn't been snooping around Monster Manual anyway. Again, this is trying to claim that OOC knowledge of mechanics in regard to encountered dangers is IC knowledge. There is IC knowledge of monsters, which can often be also expressed by mechanical language (and some GM do that, I don't, as I personally prefer that less mechanics talked, the more immersive the game feels), but OOC mechanical language isn't all expressed by IC language.

Years ago with 1E dnd I would sometimes have a dragon use its piddly level low level spells to....

White Dragon! Quick! fireball it!    *fails*

See...the dragon cast shange self to fool enemies. Its really a red dragon.

Don't see the need to reveal the stats to the players in that situation.

Quote from: Benoist;707492You would make a sad face at my games. I don't always give you the monster's AC. I don't always give you the DC or probability to every single check you make. Sometimes you don't even know if you're supposed to roll high or low. And I make some rolls for you sometimes so you don't know something your character wouldn't.

This is the way I like it.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;707506And the GM has no "right" to have me as a player. GMs had best learn to work with their players, and I expect combat and powers transparency. Games have rules, and I expect GMs to uphold their end of the agreed upon contract. "Mother may I" is not gaming, because I will not tolerate illusory bullshit of GMs shifting stats and cheating because it matches their "personal vision" (which has happened to me far too many times.)

I have an absolute right to read all rulesbooks, and I *demand* that the rules be enforced. Fuedalism collapsed in the real world, and I don't tolerate variants of this at my gaming tables. I as a GM abide by this. That kind of narrativism is poison for trad style gaming.

Also, Mr GM, don't be an ass. Tell me what the damned monster's AC is, OK?

Having a different playstyle isn't "being an ass". IF everyone else is enjoying themselves and you're not be a grown up and find another game more to your liking.

Quote from: Nexus;707713Having a different playstyle isn't "being an ass". IF everyone else is enjoying themselves and you're not be a grown up and find another game more to your liking.

Gaming as a right, not a privilege!

Quote from: Rincewind1;707547I'd actually ask a much bigger question, what is exactly "cheating by changing monster stats", as I've encountered a player who started calling bullshit on me because I gave a Bloodletter of Khorne wings, and everyone knows Daemons of Chaos are produced by Chinese factory workers, who make every single one the same as in the game's manual.

Well, we all know about the notoriously staid consistency about Chaos. You obviously must be some deprotagonizing ass of a GM.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;707546Ayup.

Quite often the statistics of things will not be found in a monster manual. Just because a monster's stats are created by the DM doesn't mean they were created on the spot just to fuck over a player.

If a player demands to know where the stats for a particular critter comes from I will be happy to honestly report the location as being straight from my ass. :rolleyes:

Agreed I very very rarely use a monster from any manual. I usually make em up on the fly.

I might have a PC skill of 'monsterology' or similar that will give them details about ecology habitat, combat style even but it won't give then HD, AC, Damage per attack.

Usually about 2 or 3 rounds into combat I tell the PCs the AC of the target provided they have hit it. I might well never tell them the AC is they never hit it and I might well tell them stuff as though true that is really an illusion or whatever.

Quote from: Rincewind1;707547I'd actually ask a much bigger question, what is exactly "cheating by changing monster stats", as I've encountered a player who started calling bullshit on me because I gave a Bloodletter of Khorne wings, and everyone knows Daemons of Chaos are produced by Chinese factory workers, who make every single one the same as in the game's manual.

If a red dragon starts breathing acid, and your character knows jack & all about dragons, tough titties. Shouldn't been snooping around Monster Manual anyway. Again, this is trying to claim that OOC knowledge of mechanics in regard to encountered dangers is IC knowledge. There is IC knowledge of monsters, which can often be also expressed by mechanical language (and some GM do that, I don't, as I personally prefer that less mechanics talked, the more immersive the game feels), but OOC mechanical language isn't all expressed by IC language.

The books (depending on the edition) even give you guidelines for making the monsters more unique and unpredictable. Dragon had at least one article on it, possibly more.

Quote from: Benoist;707492You would make a sad face at my games. I don't always give you the monster's AC. I don't always give you the DC or probability to every single check you make. Sometimes you don't even know if you're supposed to roll high or low. And I make some rolls for you sometimes so you don't know something your character wouldn't.

Yeah, no kidding, and at mine too.  While I play GURPS, I don't tell you squat that's outside the range of your own senses and experience.  You can tell whether your shots are penetrating the enemy's armor if he's groaning with pain, looks incapacitated or spurts blood.  (Or not, if he has High Pain Threshold or is otherwise unusually stoic and tough.)  You want to metagame, do it at some other patsy's table.

Quote from: Opaopajr;707829Well, we all know about the notoriously staid consistency about Chaos.

That's the best part, ain't it? You'd think the clue is in the name, but noooooo...

Quote from: Rincewind1;707937That's the best part, ain't it? You'd think the clue is in the name, but noooooo...

You should know better than to present chaos in so disorderly a fashion.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;707506And the GM has no "right" to have me as a player. GMs had best learn to work with their players, and I expect combat and powers transparency. Games have rules, and I expect GMs to uphold their end of the agreed upon contract. "Mother may I" is not gaming, because I will not tolerate illusory bullshit of GMs shifting stats and cheating because it matches their "personal vision" (which has happened to me far too many times.)

OK, so you pretty much admit it's a case of "bad DMs touching you". I'm sorry you had sucky games, man. I don't have to do things any differently because you played with those assholes, though. I'm not an asshole, and I'm not an illusionist. You either trust me as DM, or you don't. If you don't, then we might as well not play. It's cool. I have no problem with that.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;707506I have an absolute right to read all rulesbooks, and I *demand* that the rules be enforced.

Sounds like you're compensating in response to your experiences playing with dick GMs by being a dick player yourself. Don't be a dick, man.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;707506Fuedalism collapsed in the real world, and I don't tolerate variants of this at my gaming tables. I as a GM abide by this. That kind of narrativism is poison for trad style gaming.

Feudalism? WTF? Really?

Dude, weren't you the guy who was like making comparisons to the effect of Old School being right wing and New School being left wing, in the political sense? And now that "feudalism" comparison? You need to let go of the crack pipe man. It's hurting your brain.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;707506Also, Mr GM, don't be an ass. Tell me what the damned monster's AC is, OK?

Not if your character woudn't be able to guess, no.