Quote from: Seanchai;454236You're not.

Seanchai

Then what is your point here:

QuoteIf all conditions pointing to crap could still result in a good game, shouldn't you be looking at all Edward's games, not just the ones you consider to be "regular" RPGs?

Because it looks like you're saying one should have to investigate all of Edwards's games in case there just happens to be a good one in the lot even if one doesn't generally hold his games in high regard.

Quote from: misterguignol;454240Then what is your point here:

I'll tell you. Being argumentative just because, specially when the Pundit is around.

Quote from: misterguignol;454224Wait, why are obligated to search out all instances of a thing we might possibly like?

I don't like jazz, generally speaking.  There might be a jazz record I like out there, somewhere.  Should I listen to every jazz album in existence to see if I can find it?

That's not even what seanchai is expecting here. He's demanding that you look at all the reggae albums too, in case one of them ends up sounding similar enough to jazz to be to your liking.

RPGPundit

Quote from: misterguignol;454240Because it looks like you're saying one should have to investigate all of Edwards's games in case there just happens to be a good one in the lot even if one doesn't generally hold his games in high regard.

If Edward releases a game, how would you know whether it's good or not unless gather some information about it?

Currently, as I understand it, Pundit doesn't bother to do this as Edwards doesn't write "regular RPGs." Thus they are relegated, without any investigation, into the pile labeled crap.

But as Pundit has said, sometimes what he has initially thought was crap as turned out not to be. Thus I'm suggesting that instead of labeling Edwards games "regular" or "story games" or "probable crap" or whatever from the outset and then skipping the investigation phase based on that label, Pundit should just find out about the game and then make a decision.

In other words, Pundit has said, "My preconceptions have failed weeding out crap," and I've responded, "Then don't use them."

Of course, realistically, all of this is moot. I asked, "Should people dislike a game for reasons not or only tangentially related to said game (i.e., the author, who produced it, its fans, et al.)?" And Pundit's actual answer was, "Yes, absolutely."

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;454264If Edward releases a game, how would you know whether it's good or not unless gather some information about it?

Past performance is a great indicator.  If I haven't like Johnny RPG's first ten games, I can feel pretty certain that I won't like his 11th game either without having to investigate it thoroughly.

I might be wrong about that 11th game, of course, but chances are...I'm not.

Quote from: misterguignol;454267Past performance is a great indicator.

It's certainly an indicator. This thread, your own comments, Pundit's comments, et al., belie that bit about "great," however.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;454269It's certainly an indicator. This thread, your own comments, Pundit's comments, et al., belie that bit about "great," however.

Seanchai

Prove it.  Show me concretely where my past experience has led me astray.

Quote from: Seanchai;454264If Edward releases a game, how would you know whether it's good or not unless gather some information about it?

-Seanchai

Um, if the past several games by the same author were not to a person's liking, then it is a pretty safe bet that this latest one would not be either.

Fuck, try using some common sense for once.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: misterguignol;454282Prove it. Show me concretely where my past experience has led me astray.

"I might be wrong about that 11th game, of course..." By your own admission, using the past as an indicator of the future isn't foolproof. How "great" can it be if it occasionally leads you astray?

But there are other issues with the idea as well. For example, as I said above, often we're not really dealing with attributes of the game at all in this situation. It's some presumption the person has made, such as "WoD uses a percentile system," that turns out to be untrue. Or attributes that are tangential at best, such as "The author is Swine."

And then there's the issue of sample size. The past can be used to indicate the future when the sample size is sufficient. Edwards has, essentially, two RPGs. How much can you really say - with any degree of reliability - about his proclivities based on two examples?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;454453"I might be wrong about that 11th game, of course..." By your own admission, using the past as an indicator of the future isn't foolproof. How "great" can it be if it occasionally leads you astray?

But there are other issues with the idea as well. For example, as I said above, often we're not really dealing with attributes of the game at all in this situation. It's some presumption the person has made, such as "WoD uses a percentile system," that turns out to be untrue. Or attributes that are tangential at best, such as "The author is Swine."

And then there's the issue of sample size. The past can be used to indicate the future when the sample size is sufficient. Edwards has, essentially, two RPGs. How much can you really say - with any degree of reliability - about his proclivities based on two examples?

Seanchai

Fuck, your point reaches past common sense and into absurdity.

How much of a person's income should be spent on buying games to find one's they like? By your assertion, all of a person's income should be spent on games - just in case they find that rose in a pile of shit they just bought. Damn past performance, it doesn't matter! Just waste your money!

Not that I condone PDF priating but it can be handy to try before you buy

Quote from: Seanchai;454453"I might be wrong about that 11th game, of course..." By your own admission, using the past as an indicator of the future isn't foolproof. How "great" can it be if it occasionally leads you astray?

Are you kidding me?  If past performance is right 9 times out of ten, it's right 90% of the time.  That seems pretty great to me.  

QuoteBut there are other issues with the idea as well. Or attributes that are tangential at best, such as "The author is Swine."

If someone tends not to enjoy storygames I don't see why they should have to check out the latest storygames to be certain they wouldn't enjoy them.  That isn't tangential; that's preference.

QuoteAnd then there's the issue of sample size. The past can be used to indicate the future when the sample size is sufficient. Edwards has, essentially, two RPGs. How much can you really say - with any degree of reliability - about his proclivities based on two examples?

Seanchai

A whole lot, actually.  I can say with a great degree of certainty that I am not likely to enjoy games he designs.

Why is this rather simple concept so hard for you to understand?

Two games and a shitload of dogma he cleaves to for making his games.

If a guy were known for writing two novels about the evils of homosexuality and for having a huge website dedicated to his theories about the "gay agenda", it would be a pretty safe bet that any third novel would likely continue to go along those lines.

RPGPundit

Anyways, don't mind Seanchai too much, guys, he's just a crazy homeless guy camped out on my front lawn vomiting up nonsense.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Seanchai;454453And then there's the issue of sample size. The past can be used to indicate the future when the sample size is sufficient. Edwards has, essentially, two RPGs. How much can you really say - with any degree of reliability - about his proclivities based on two examples?

Ron Edwards has six published RPGs:  Sorcerer, Elfs, Trollbabe, It Was a Mutual Decision, Spione, and S/Lay w/Me.  He also has written a bunch of essays where he describes his proclivities, which I think are fair game for judging him as a game designer.  While it's true that designers can take new paths, it's also reasonable to decide based on their past designs.  

However, I would say that one should judge based on the games themselves or responsible reviews of them, not based on some random forum chatter.  I've played Sorcerer and read Trollbabe, and haven't had any interest in his other games based on their description and what I know of his proclivities.