Exactly, Sigmund.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;453755Exactly, Sigmund.

Let's be clear: You're saying your point in this thread was to point out that there really isn't a good reason to want to dislike a game before playing it?

Because that seems to be completely at odds with your war against the "Swine." You are the poster child of disliking games for ideological reasons. Thus it seemed to me that your point was that disliking a game on a basis other than the game's actual attributes is acceptable and widely practiced.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;453797snip

You know, the only thing more frustrating than trying to understand the warped logic Pundit uses is attempting to get him to see reason.

You are fighting a loosing battle.

Quote from: VictorC;453890You know, the only thing more frustrating than trying to understand the warped logic Pundit uses is attempting to get him to see reason.

You are fighting a loosing battle.

I know. But it's not so much that - I'm wondering if I really did miss something and his point was something different than I imagine. It certainly seems to me that he's trying to prove that tilting at windmills is normal and worthwhile, but...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;453797Let's be clear: You're saying your point in this thread was to point out that there really isn't a good reason to want to dislike a game before playing it?

How the hell do you get to that conclusion?  I'm saying there are all kinds of good reasons, and that they're often right, but that at times they can be surprisingly wrong.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;453936How the hell do you get to that conclusion?

I didn't reach that conclusion. I reached a different one, but was told that this is what your point is and you said, "Exactly!"

Quote from: RPGPundit;453936I'm saying there are all kinds of good reasons, and that they're often right, but that at times they can be surprisingly wrong.

So they're "good reasons," but they're "surprisingly wrong?"

It seems to me that your "good reasons" for not liking a game include a whole bunch of reasons that have nothing to do with said game. As your modus operandi is disliking swaths of games, sight unseen, based ideological reasons, it seems to me, again, that your point is that this is okay.

So I'll just ask directly: Should people dislike a game for reasons not or only tangentially related to said game (i.e., the author, who produced it, its fans, et al.)?

Seanchai

I bought myself a copy of Maid.

As creepy as I find the concept I have a feeling I'll like it a lot!

Quote from: Seanchai;453987So they're "good reasons," but they're "surprisingly wrong?"

It seems to me that your "good reasons" for not liking a game include a whole bunch of reasons that have nothing to do with said game. As your modus operandi is disliking swaths of games, sight unseen, based ideological reasons, it seems to me, again, that your point is that this is okay.

So I'll just ask directly: Should people dislike a game for reasons not or only tangentially related to said game (i.e., the author, who produced it, its fans, et al.)?

Seanchai

I think the unspoken givens for this issue apparently need to be posted to clear up the confusion. Yes, one can have what one considers to be "good reasons", that do end up being "surprisingly wrong".  The reasons themselves are by nature extremely subjective and are based on expectations and incomplete information. The expectations are obviously not confirmed by the experience of the game itself if one ends up enjoying it anyway. Everyone forms expectations of things before they are directly experienced, and quite often the experience does not match the expectation, so this really is not that unusual or complicated of an issue. This is simply the other side of the "I expected to like X game, but was disappointed" coin. Notice, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here despite the fact that your modus operandi is to post trolls whenever Pundit posts anything, apparently on a crusade to point out how ridiculous Pundit's crusade is.

I'd also submit that people should do whatever the hell they want to do, since they're usually going to anyway.

Quote from: Seanchai;453987So I'll just ask directly: Should people dislike a game for reasons not or only tangentially related to said game (i.e., the author, who produced it, its fans, et al.)?

Seanchai

If your question is whether a person should dislike a game for those reasons, when they otherwise find the game to be well written, cool, playable, etc; then no.  If Ron Edwards chose to make a regular RPG tomorrow and it turned out to be well-written and with good and interesting mechanics, then I'd give him credit for it.

If, on the other hand, you're asking whether those reasons you list are not good reasons to factor into your initial ideas about a game, I'd say that those reasons are certainly valid causes for factoring into your decision-making process.  If the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade were to write a book on non-aggressive conflict resolution, I don't think it'd be "tangential" to start out from a perspective of suspicion.  Because odds are, in fact, that their book is going to be crap.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;454119If, on the other hand, you're asking whether those reasons you list are not good reasons to factor into your initial ideas about a game, I'd say that those reasons are certainly valid causes for factoring into your decision-making process.

And so before we know anything about the game itself, we've already decided it's probably going to be crap. Not definitely crap, just probably. Because, hey, it could turn out to be "well written, cool, playable, etc."

I suspect that, somehow, they never turn out to be the latter. I'm guessing, for example, you don't actually check out Edward's and the other "Swine's" latest offerings on the off chance they might be "well written, cool, playable, etc."

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;454149And so before we know anything about the game itself, we've already decided it's probably going to be crap. Not definitely crap, just probably. Because, hey, it could turn out to be "well written, cool, playable, etc."

I suspect that, somehow, they never turn out to be the latter. I'm guessing, for example, you don't actually check out Edward's and the other "Swine's" latest offerings on the off chance they might be "well written, cool, playable, etc."

Seanchai

I'm pretty sure that if Edwards were even rumoured to have written a regular RPG I would hear of it, and I would rush to see what's going on there.  
As for the general case, well, there are obviously limits to one's capacity for examination, but I see it as my responsibility to keep myself as well-informed about what's going on in both the world of "Storygaming" and the world of actual RPGs to the fullest extent I possibly can.

Or to put it another way, you have no idea the kind of shit I've had to "check out", bitch.  And nine times out of ten, my initial information gathering lets me hazard a guess about the quality of any given product that turns out to be right.  As I mentioned in this thread, once in a while I get a pleasant surprise, when all conditions should point to "crap" and instead it turns out to be good.  Of course, it is lamentably but expectable that far more often the opposite happens, that games that should by all rights be "good" turn out to be crap.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Seanchai;453987So I'll just ask directly: Should people dislike a game for reasons not or only tangentially related to said game (i.e., the author, who produced it, its fans, et al.)?

Seanchai

Remember kiddies, you are not entitled to your own opinion unless it is first sanctioned by Seanchai.

Quote from: RPGPundit;454172As I mentioned in this thread, once in a while I get a pleasant surprise, when all conditions should point to "crap" and instead it turns out to be good.

How does that happen? If all conditions pointing to crap could still result in a good game, shouldn't you be looking at all Edward's games, not just the ones you consider to be "regular" RPGs?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;454211How does that happen? If all conditions pointing to crap could still result in a good game, shouldn't you be looking at all Edward's games, not just the ones you consider to be "regular" RPGs?

Seanchai

Wait, why are obligated to search out all instances of a thing we might possibly like?

I don't like jazz, generally speaking.  There might be a jazz record I like out there, somewhere.  Should I listen to every jazz album in existence to see if I can find it?

Quote from: misterguignol;454224Wait, why are obligated to search out all instances of a thing we might possibly like?

You're not.

Seanchai