Quote from: RPGPundit;452944Most of those are not reasons I personally would not like a game, they are only there by way of example.

And most have little to do with the game itself. What you've really "proven" is that people are illogical, dumb, and will use tangential negative preconceptions to screw themselves out of positive experiences.

Seanchai

Quote from: Settembrini;452985For me it is Memoir '44

For sure. I can't say if I didn't want to like it, but I shied away from it for a while before friends pulled me in. And it's damn fun. I'm also more convinced than ever that I should develop a deck/rules to use with Battle Masters.

Mine was Pathfinder. Even during character creation I was sure I'd hate it. I was even sure the setting would blow and be typical boring generic fantasy.

Not a fan of 3.x and most other d20, but for whatever reason, the  changes in both rules and tone for PFRPG clicked for me once I gave it a  shot. And I love Golarion, which surprises me even more. There's just a ton of little things about PFRPG that make me like it even though it should hit all my HATE buttons.

aaron

Quote from: Seanchai;453005And most have little to do with the game itself. What you've really "proven" is that people are illogical, dumb, and will use tangential negative preconceptions to screw themselves out of positive experiences.

Seanchai

I'm sure that this does happen, but this is precisely a thread contrary to that argument; its about people who have certain preconceptions, reasonable or not, and who have given the product a chance anyways and were pleasantly surprised.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;453154I'm sure that this does happen, but this is precisely a thread contrary to that argument...

No, it isn't. First and foremost, because fifteen people weighing in on a subject on some message board is hardly proof of anything. Secondly, because you've confused what was overcome.

Quote from: RPGPundit;453154its about people who have certain preconceptions, reasonable or not, and who have given the product a chance anyways and were pleasantly surprised.

Because they never actually disliked the game. They disliked the author, the company, some ideology, etc.. This isn't about people overcoming a dislike of a game, it's about overcoming some stupid preconception. If the objections went like, "I don't like percentile systems. BRP is a percentile system, so I didn't think I'd like it. But I tried it and I did like it!," then we'd be talking about folks and games.

Seanchai

A game I remain absolutely torn on is D&D 4E.

When the preview books and early online previews went live, I was mystified by the depth of stupidity. The more previews and marketing went life, the more and more I came to dislike where D&D was going.

Then on June 6, 2008, I went to a launch event in London, which had Rob Heinsoo playing 4E with us. To my own surprise, I enjoyed the game and bought the PHB that night.

But I've been utterly bipolar about the game ever since. I remain horrified by some of the culture surrounding the game, not to mention the fanbase, and on the other hand, I deeply enjoy playing the game with my own crew, currently being in one of the most hilarious and entertaining RPG campaigns of my life thanks to 4E (among other things).

The same is true of the 4E Forgotten Realms. After the first video interview with Chris Perkins (who I appreciate very much), I didn't even bother, as it was simply so bizarre it defied belief. Quite some time after the (widely reviled) Campaign book was released, I picked it up in a bargain bin, and - again - to my surprise, ended up being deeply fond of the setting.

As to the wider premise of the thread, I believe it's absolutely possible these days to start off disliking a game prior to its release. Online marketing and display of pre-release teaser material has certainly given us plenty of opportunity to inform ourselves about a game before we even (try to) play it. I also believe it's important to make up one's mind in that way, simply because there are too many games out there, but also to humbly remember that one's first impressions (no matter how well formed) may on occasion be wrong. And by that I don't mean, not giving a game its proper assessment, but being off in regards to: assessing how much one would or could end up liking it.

Quote from: Windjammer;453188A game I remain absolutely torn on is D&D 4E.

When the preview books and early online previews went live, I was mystified by the depth of stupidity. The more previews and marketing went life, the more and more I came to dislike where D&D was going.

Then on June 6, 2008, I went to a launch event in London, which had Rob Heinsoo playing 4E with us. To my own surprise, I enjoyed the game and bought the PHB that night.

But I've been utterly bipolar about the game ever since. I remain horrified by some of the culture surrounding the game, not to mention the fanbase, and on the other hand, I deeply enjoy playing the game with my own crew, currently being in one of the most hilarious and entertaining RPG campaigns of my life thanks to 4E (among other things).

Same here.

Though I didn't really follow the pre-release advertising before the June 2008 release of the 4E D&D core books.  I just cynically thought it was a simple cash grab, and didn't want to like it at first.

Essentially I went in "cold" to 4E D&D, not really knowing what to expect other than my cynical preconceived expectations of it "automatically being crap".  (I was somewhat "burned out" on 3.5E D&D by then anyways).

Over the summer of 2008, I decided to try out "Keep on the Shadowfell" with some other players at a nearby gaming store, and found that I actually enjoyed the actual gameplay at low levels.  (I later found out high level play wasn't as enjoyable).  We played every week and finished the "Keep on the Shadowfell" module at around the time when the 4E Forgotten Realms campaign setting book was first released.

If there ever was a "golden age" for 4E D&D, I think it would have been during the summer of 2008.  This would have been before the DDI character builder became popular, and before the hardcover splatbook proliferation.   (We still did chargen by hand at the time).  The calm before the storm .

Quote from: Windjammer;453188The same is true of the 4E Forgotten Realms. After the first video interview with Chris Perkins (who I appreciate very much), I didn't even bother, as it was simply so bizarre it defied belief. Quite some time after the (widely reviled) Campaign book was released, I picked it up in a bargain bin, and - again - to my surprise, ended up being deeply fond of the setting.

At the time, I thought the 4E Forgotten Realms setting was reminiscent of the 1E AD&D Forgotten Realms "grey box".  I wanted to use it as a sandbox setting, and played with a group of players who were not familiar with sandbox type games.

It turned out my 4E FR game ended up becoming rudderless after awhile, and ended up collapsing.  The players just went around Waterdeep getting into barfights and beating up random people on the streets.  They completely missed any and all hints of possible missions/jobs or plots, such as "adventurers want ads" on bulletin boards at various bars in Waterdeep.  (The players even set some bars on fire).

I ended up resigning the DM chair, and one of the players became DM where we played through the "Thunderspire Labyrinth" module.  (It turned out this particular group of players were more interested in playing through a module).

Quote from: Windjammer;453188As to the wider premise of the thread, I believe it's absolutely possible these days to start off disliking a game prior to its release. Online marketing and display of pre-release teaser material has certainly given us plenty of opportunity to inform ourselves about a game before we even (try to) play it. I also believe it's important to make up one's mind in that way, simply because there are too many games out there, but also to humbly remember that one's first impressions (no matter how well formed) may on occasion be wrong. And by that I don't mean, not giving a game its proper assessment, but being off in regards to: assessing how much one would or could end up liking it.

For sure.

I was very cynical about Mongoose Runequest 2 (MRQ2) at first, after seeing how crappy MRQ1 was a number of years earlier.  (I didn't bother buying many MRQ1 books, and more or less wrote it off as crap at the time).

Even though I've only played several evening one-shot games of MRQ2, I like the system so far in play.

Quote from: Windjammer;453188I remain horrified by some of the culture surrounding the game, not to mention the fanbase, and on the other hand, I deeply enjoy playing the game with my own crew, currently being in one of the most hilarious and entertaining RPG campaigns of my life thanks to 4E (among other things).

Same here.

(At the risk of going offtopic).

In practice, I've found that many D&D/rpg players tend to make very poor "ambassadors" for the hobby.  The average D&D/rpg player I've come across over the years, is more likely to drive away or scare new players.

If I was my teenage (or preteen) self today, I would certainly be turned off by the fanbase and culture surrounding D&D and rpg games in general.  More generally, I think I would be turned off even more by the fanbase and culture of other geek/nerd type fandoms like World of Warcraft, etc ...

Overall, my teenage self (today) probably would just bypass rpgs, World of Warcraft, etc ... altogether.  (Another hypothetical customer lost).

Instead of rpgs, WoW, etc ... I think my teenage self would probably spend more time reading books on topics like advanced mathematics, chemistry, etc ...  Before I started playing D&D back in the day, I spent a lot of time reading my dad's old calculus and physics college textbooks (and doing many calculations).

Quote from: Seanchai;453159Because they never actually disliked the game. They disliked the author, the company, some ideology, etc.. This isn't about people overcoming a dislike of a game, it's about overcoming some stupid preconception. If the objections went like, "I don't like percentile systems. BRP is a percentile system, so I didn't think I'd like it. But I tried it and I did like it!," then we'd be talking about folks and games.

That's a perfectly good example, but just one type of example, of something I was talking about within the context of this thread.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;453310That's a perfectly good example, but just one type of example, of something I was talking about within the context of this thread.

What you're missing is that many of your examples, what you're talking about, aren't like "I don't like percentile systems. BRP is a percentile system, so I didn't think I'd like it. But I tried it and I did like it!"

The examples you listed are:

"I don't want to like this game because its published by Palladium"

"I don't want to like this game because I heard it had a random-roll system"

"I don't want to like this game because the author is known for being a radical marxist"

"I don't want to like this game because its about robots and robots are stupid"

"I don't want to like this game because it seems like vanilla fantasy and that's overdone"

"I don't want to like this game because it looks pretentious and like it tries too hard to be "edgy"

"I don't want to like this game because its rules-lite"

"I don't want to like this game because its from an OSR author"

"I don't want to like this game because because its diceless"

"I don't want to like this game because its based on a licensed book/movie/show I can't stand"

Of them, the four I italicized are actually about the game.

Seanchai

Yes, and again, your point other than "I don't like the subject of this thread" would be??

BTW; I'd say "I don't like it because its a random-roll system" would also be an example of a direct issue with the game.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;453418Yes, and again, your point other than "I don't like the subject of this thread" would be??

I stated it: You're wrong. You believe that this thread demonstrates that folks are like you, tilting at semi-random windmills, but that's not the case.

Seanchai

There's nothing random about likes and dislikes.  And while I certainly never set out to prove "lots of people think like me", this thread would seem to vindicate that quite a few in fact do.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;453601And while I certainly never set out to prove "lots of people think like me"...

"Well, I think that at this point I've proven the validity of my original post." Sounds like a) you had some ulterior motive that led to your initial post and b) that feel you got the "proof" you were after.

Quote from: RPGPundit;453601...this thread would seem to vindicate that quite a few in fact do.

How many is this "quite a few" again? Six? Eight? Ten?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;453606"Well, I think that at this point I've proven the validity of my original post." Sounds like a) you had some ulterior motive that led to your initial post and b) that feel you got the "proof" you were after.



How many is this "quite a few" again? Six? Eight? Ten?

Seanchai

Actually, what I got from Pundit's post about the point of the thread being validated was that he was responding to...

Quote from: Soylent Green;452109Why would I not want to like a game?

... and...

Quote from: Benoist;452112Good question.

... and based on that I'd say Pundit's right.