Quote from: William G. GruffSpeaking as a lifelong Doctor Who fan who can only take OG in very small doses, that's a damn good analogy. :cool:

It also ignores the substantial community of long-time WFRP fans who are far more moderate in their approach, as well as the large number of brand new fans who love second edition without ever having laid eyes on first ed.

Seriously, there are enough false propositions in this thread-- pretty much all of them from the same source --to make one's eyes bleed.

Balbinus: thank you for the kind words.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYes - exactly. But the 'old guard' Mr. Arnulf is refering to is the WFB hating uberwhingers of StS* instead of the wider majority of games who almost all have an opinion on Games Workshop, whatever it is. And given they sell lots of stuff, presumably some of them actually like what they make, rather than something almost, but not entirely, wholy unalike WFB and wouldn't mind seeing some roleplaying stuff to go with their models and their novels etc.

*These would be the sorta Outpost Galifrey equivalent. By pretty much ignoring them and instead making something for THE REST OF THE FUCKING COUNTRY, the latest version of Doctor Who has brought entertainment to a great number of people. You can't MOVE for Doctor Who at the moment.

WFRP2 made a terrible mistake in listening to the Outpost Galifrey guys, who made the mistake of thinking they were the only people who had ever seen Dr. Who.

You repeatedly miss a key point here. WFRP v2 was NOT designed to appease GW-hating v1 diehards. The setting pretty much reflects current WFB to the letter. In case you haven't played WFB since 4th edition, it's no longer the Herohammer game of the early 90's. Magic items are limited availability and oftentimes it's not worth buying them for your heroes. A few rank-and-file troops can, in fact, defeat most hero characters toe-to-toe, and Wizard Lords are rarely worth the points in an average-sized army. Characters like Gotrek, who can carve through hordes of goblins singlehandedly, are the exception rather than the norm. Most heroes are grizzled, ugly men who die in droves. Epic-level heroes are NOT the default character type in Warhammer Fantasy. WFB is a game where a single cannon crewman can get lucky and kill your General (this has happened to my army several times). WFRP v2 reflects this pretty well.

And if you hadn't already been banned from both BIf and RPGnet, you'd know that WFRP v2 is in fact drawing new players. But just keep railing against a half-dozen old skool fans from StS - it only makes you look more pathetic and discredits your position, which can only be a good thing.

QuoteYou repeatedly miss a key point here. WFRP v2 was NOT designed to appease GW-hating v1 diehards.

No. It really was.

Just imagine what a totally fresh GW produced roleplaying game might look like. One with no baggage, written in GWs house style.

I'm talking like Dawn of War the roleplaying game here.

That people are so invested in their mythical v1 that they can't see this really bugs me.

Erik, just to check, do you currently play WFB according to the now current ruleset?

Quote from: Erik BoielleNo. It really was.

Just imagine what a totally fresh GW produced roleplaying game might look like. One with no baggage, written in GWs house style.

I'm talking like Dawn of War the roleplaying game here.

That people are so invested in their mythical v1 that they can't see this really bugs me.

Ah, right. I keep forgetting you're the guy who wants Warhammer Fantasy to become more like 40K, and all your opinions of 'what GW should be' are based on the 40K universe.

Erik, you keep bringing up Dawn of War like it's some sort of holy talisman of gaming, and at all relevant to RPG's (electronic or otherwise).

WTF?

I mean, I fucking played the game all last week like an addicted crack monkey until I beat the Tau campaign line. It's a lot of fun, sure. It's got 40k armies that feel like 40k armies, sure. Hell, you have 'wargear' for your leader that are based off the tabletop, sure.

But it's about as roleplayee 'violence porn' as command and conquer. Which is to say, not at fucking all.  You have a little dude with a bunch of other little dudes... and I do mean LITTLE running around shooting other little dudes, and everything dying in droves, but since you keep making more little dudes, no one cares.

And almost none of those little dudes have names, much less personalities.  

So: Apparently you are suggesting that the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying Game should be about and endless succession of faceless, nameless characters that run out and do nothing but battle endlessly? In fact, that this should be the model for all RPGs?

I suspect not. That being the case, please stop tossing around the existance of DoW as some sort of template for RPGs. It's a RTS. A fast paced, fun, RTS but it has about as much relevance to RPG design as a Monopoly set.

QuoteErik, just to check, do you currently play WFB according to the now current ruleset?

Nah - I just don't want a 40K rpg tainted by the same crap as Warhammer. My black templars are kitted out in a way I think is Competetive rather than how i'd like though - bloody hate predators - close combat terminators and dreadnought are the shit).

--

Seriously though, the rank and file dudes are all big muscle bound chaps. That there are lots of them doesn't mean they arn't all badass.

It's an attitude see. An army of Conans fighting an army of Lurtzes. Thats certainly what Warhammer Online seems to sell itself as. Is there something wrong with that assesment?

300 (the movie) vs. Blackadder Goes Fourth.

Dawn of War vs. Barbarosa to Berlin (although its worth noting that the PCs in DoW are the commanders, with everyone else an NPC henchman).

(I like dawn of war cause it has sorta enough story without not being Warhammer any more - er, all the stuff in the first campaign with the corrupt librarian and Chaos/Ork pacts and the gribbly demon.

Much angst about destroying your homeworld. I think. And in Dark Crusade, all that stuff about 'Commander X demanded the planetary governor withdraw. He refused. So the Blood Ravens went to war with the Imperial Guard. You know. In the funky voice.).

How about a follow-up question then. Have you ever played WFB?

Quote from: Erik BoielleIt's an attitude see. An army of Conans fighting an army of Lurtzes. Thats certainly what Warhammer Online seems to sell itself as. Is there something wrong with that assesment?

Yes, there is. Human rank-and-file in WFB have a strength of 3, which is human average. Conan probably has a Strength 5. Lurtz is an Orc Boss, and you're limited to 3-5 of those in a WFB army.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeHow about a follow-up question then. Have you ever played WFB?

I've got half an empire army. Were it finished, every man in it would be badass.

Truth be told, were I to put in the effort required to finish one, I'd go for a hard core chaos knight army. You can do that right? People like having hardass chaos knights right?

--

Its this kinda thing that I think makes Dawn of War particularly suitable for examination for roleplaying conversion:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj7I_EAJuu0

Incidentally, are you fat, and do you have a beard?

Quote from: Erik BoielleIncidentally, are you fat, and do you have a beard?

I'm 6'4", 200 lbs., beardless, and could mop the floor with your wussy ass.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeI'm 6'4", 200 lbs., beardless, and could mop the floor with your wussy ass.

Sure you are, fatbeard.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSure you are, fatbeard.

Ken Burnside knows me. Ask him. Unless you've been banned over there as well.

Herr Arnulfe, that's completely uncalled for.  If Erik wants to argue that WFRP (a game he doesn't play) should be more like Warhammer Fantasy (another game he doesn't play) that's his right.  I fail to see the point, but that's his right.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeI'm 6'4", 200 lbs., beardless, and could mop the floor with your wussy ass.

Arnulfe, you are better than that. You can make posts far better than that. Don't let the troll get at you.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeKen Burnside knows me. Ask him. Unless you've been banned over there as well.

I have. More or less. Told him SITS was a worst case example of grognard fanwank over playability.

Principally because it is. I've not played that either, but I did spend a couple of weeks writing a program to automate the damage system, so I know

1: It takes to long

and

2: It doesn't work.

In fact, I told him that two years ago, but the sumbitch wouldn't listen. Now he's completely rewriting the system.

Almost as if I told him so.

Ah well, some people never listen...










Maybe I should stop telling people uncomfortable truths. They don't seem to appreciate it.