Quote from: DrewToo much of anything will make certain parts of you rot.

not so

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeHowever, I can't help but think that alienating the existing WFRP fanbase with the vague hope of converting 13 year old boys into roleplayers could have easily been tantamount to financial suicide for BI.

I disagree. I don't believe the existing WFRP fanbase you speak of exists outside of Strike to Stun.

Its is GAMES WORKSHOP. Its HUGE! They make Novels and Comics and Minis and Computer Games and EVERYTHING.

And with the exception of WFRP, its all bloody violence porn! Thats what they sell! I know if I'm looking at a warhammer product I'm looking for violence porn. If I wasn't, I'd be somewhere else!

And DnD and Exalted and Vampire are the big games in roleplaying. Its not just the crucial preteen agegroup that likes this stuff.

It just so ODD.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI disagree. I don't believe the existing WFRP fanbase you speak of exists outside of Strike to Stun.

Its is GAMES WORKSHOP. Its HUGE! They make Novels and Comics and Minis and Computer Games and EVERYTHING.

And with the exception of WFRP, its all bloody violence porn! Thats what they sell! I know if I'm looking at a warhammer product I'm looking for violence porn. If I wasn't, I'd be somewhere else!

The posters at BIf and RPGnet are also part of the WFRP fanbase, and they're very happy with v2. Convert the game into AHQ: the RPG as you suggest, and you'd see them drop like flies. Sure you might pick up some new converts, but it's no guarantee.

An RPG that's just violence porn with no other redeeming elements is just dull and GW would be foolish to take marketing advice from you on this matter. There's a reason why GW's minis games are violence porn: they're battle games. They're not supposed to be about anything else.

Such things are relative - GW is HUGE, so even a small fraction of its fanbase if a decent sector.

Dawn of War has sold like two million copies though, so, yknow. Relative.

QuoteAn RPG that's just violence porn with no other redeeming elements is just dull and GW would be foolish to take marketing advice from you on this matter. There's a reason why GW's minis games are violence porn: they're battle games. They're not supposed to be about anything else.

Their SUCCESSFUL book publishing arm is mostly violence porn. Their SUCCESSFUL computergames are violence porn. I think there is a pattern here.

Its what they sell. They are stupid to sell anything else.

Not, as it happens, that there isn't room for other things, but surely the place is in fanzines and such instead of GW central?

Quote from: Erik BoielleTheir SUCCESSFUL book publishing arm is mostly violence porn. Their SUCCESSFUL computergames are violence porn.

Its what they sell. They are stupid to sell anything else.

I can't speak for the 40K fiction, but aside from the Slayer series, you're wrong about the fantasy novels - there's plenty of mystery, social conflict etc. to go along with the combat.

And who wants to play a computer game as an RPG? Every attempt to convert a computer game property to an RPG has failed.

My observations:

* It seems to me that GW is missing the boat by not doing pre-painted minis.  I think if they went the pre-painted route, they'd blow the competition out of the water.  

I know I might actually play them again, then.  Dropping a load of money on minis is one thing.  Dropping a load of minis and then spending thousands of hours trying to paint them is another.

* Like Balbinus, I think Erick has a point about WHFRP.  If it approached character generation like Exalted or Palladium/Rifts, where characters start out heroic and get more heroic as time goes on, I believe it would have been a larger success overall (perhaps less RPG sales, but increased mini sales from cross-marketing).

* I think they are making an even bigger mistake with the not-yet-released 40K RPG.  People will want to play Space Marines, Dark Eldar, etc - not Inquisitors and Free Traders or whatever.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI just like it because it has Unlikly Middenheim in the background, and has a big war coming down to single combat between the leaders of the armies - things almost guaranteed to start the geriatric half dozen clucking like angry hens.

But, I mean you get the idea:-

So these pics are Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, right? I have the WRFP 2e corebook, and those pictures look like they could be something straight out of the setting.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSuch things are relative - GW is HUGE, so even a small fraction of its fanbase if a decent sector.

Dawn of War has sold like two million copies though, so, yknow. Relative.




Their SUCCESSFUL book publishing arm is mostly violence porn. Their SUCCESSFUL computergames are violence porn. I think there is a pattern here.

Its what they sell. They are stupid to sell anything else.

Not, as it happens, that there isn't room for other things, but surely the place is in fanzines and such instead of GW central?

Have you seen the cover to WFRP 2e? It looks like violence porn to me. The game can do violence porn easily, and it can do lower-powered stuff as well. To the best of my knowledge, WFRP 2e is in the top 5 list for rpgs. Has WFRP 2e sold more copies of their core book than Vampire or Exalted? I've heard that Warhammer Fantasy is actually bigger than Vampire worldwide (just not in North America), though I can't recall where I've heard this. Can someone enlighten me? :confused:

Quote from: Erik BoielleIts is GAMES WORKSHOP. Its HUGE! They make Novels and Comics and Minis and Computer Games and EVERYTHING.

Except for the fact, y'know, that GW doesn't make the computer games. Relic Entertainment made Dawn of War - all GW did was license it. GW hasn't produced a computer game since 1986.

I just thought I'd duck in and say that I'm loving WFRP2 for being exactly what it is - low-powered, violent fantasy that tends towards the heroic, especially at higher levels.

I have never played v1, I have no idea what strike to stun even is, I have friends who play the wargame but I've never played myself.

If it were power fantasy gaming I were looking for, I'd just play more high-level D&D.

-O

Quote from: Erik BoielleI disagree. I don't believe the existing WFRP fanbase you speak of exists outside of Strike to Stun.

Yeah, but you're wrong.

I don't know what Strike to Stun is, I'm guessing a fan forum (and a very nice one too if Herr Arnulfe is a representative), but WFRP has a lot more fans than are reflected in one fan forum.

Hell, if it didn't the plug would already have been pulled on it.

Herr Arnulfe, thanks for the replies.  Sounds about right, lots improved, a few things you'd have preferred done differently.  For a new edition that's not so bad.

Quote from: BalbinusYeah, but you're wrong.

I don't know what Strike to Stun is, I'm guessing a fan forum (and a very nice one too if Herr Arnulfe is a representative), but WFRP has a lot more fans than are reflected in one fan forum.

Hell, if it didn't the plug would already have been pulled on it.

Herr Arnulfe, thanks for the replies.  Sounds about right, lots improved, a few things you'd have preferred done differently.  For a new edition that's not so bad.

StS is a bit of a grognardy WFRP site. They still have a "what do you think the next edition will be like?" thing on their front page! But they mean well.

Ahem.

Anyway, as far as the appealing to the teenage demographic... yeah, you could make it more about the griffon-riding knights and whatnot, but wouldn't that conflict with the wargame (which is going to do big battles better anyway)?

I know my WFRP games have always been very violent, but it's a Western bar brawl and kicking in someone's head in an alley rather than the battle of Helm's Deep. I know a few thirteen year olds who think the WFRP brawling stuff is the chicken's elbows - not all adolescents are the same.

Some people like the LotR films, some people like The Mummy. I'd say the wargame does the first better (the fighty bits, that is) and WFRP would be better and the latter.

Quotebut WFRP has a lot more fans than are reflected in one fan forum.

Yes - exactly. But the 'old guard' Mr. Arnulf is refering to is the WFB hating uberwhingers of StS* instead of the wider majority of games who almost all have an opinion on Games Workshop, whatever it is. And given they sell lots of stuff, presumably some of them actually like what they make, rather than something almost, but not entirely, wholy unalike WFB and wouldn't mind seeing some roleplaying stuff to go with their models and their novels etc.

*These would be the sorta Outpost Galifrey equivalent. By pretty much ignoring them and instead making something for THE REST OF THE FUCKING COUNTRY, the latest version of Doctor Who has brought entertainment to a great number of people. You can't MOVE for Doctor Who at the moment.

WFRP2 made a terrible mistake in listening to the Outpost Galifrey guys, who made the mistake of thinking they were the only people who had ever seen Dr. Who.

I see your point Erik, I'm not sure I entirely disagree with you, though I would say had you been a bit less hyperbolic earlier I'd probably have agreed with some of your points sooner.

If you toned down the whole attack bunny schtick you'd be much more persuasive.

Quote from: Erik Boielle*These would be the sorta Outpost Galifrey equivalent. By pretty much ignoring them and instead making something for THE REST OF THE FUCKING COUNTRY, the latest version of Doctor Who has brought entertainment to a great number of people. You can't MOVE for Doctor Who at the moment.

WFRP2 made a terrible mistake in listening to the Outpost Galifrey guys, who made the mistake of thinking they were the only people who had ever seen Dr. Who.

Speaking as a lifelong Doctor Who fan who can only take OG in very small doses, that's a damn good analogy. :cool: