Easy to do tabletop, in video games it's always a cutscene sort of thing.

Otherwise you have one character (yours) posing up a storm while the other guy (comp or otherwise) continues to beat the snot out of you...

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeI think you'll be a much happier man/boy if you just stick it in your Playstation.

Fixed yer typo

Sorry Erik, that's how I read the post on the first pass...

Quote from: Erik BoielleIn part because some knobend on the forum would tell you you were doing it wrong. Tell me I'm mistaken.

Since when did you start caring about what others think of you? People will go ahead and play the games they want, and if they're happy they won't seek validation on the internet.

Quote from: Erik BoielleThat said, the chances of getting a starting character who is a complete wuss and insufficent healing would likly limit your ability to act like  characters from video games.

Better if default dudes act like the fanbase would expect.

The obvious solution would be to start off with 3,000 XP characters. People have been doing this in D&D for years when they don't want to start at level 1. An WFRP character can be rolled up and advanced in 30 minutes.

Quote from: David JohansenFixed yer typo.

Now that's just mean.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeBalbinus: what do you think BI could have done to bring WFRP more in line with WFB?

Hyped up the power level, more bigass magic as standard, more death metal vibe stuff, lots of things that you can do with the current ruleset but made as default rather than as a possibility.  Aim it squarely at 13 year olds.

I'm damn glad they didn't do it incidentally, the rpg and the wargame are different beasts and I'm very happy to see them remain that way, but I suspect going for Erik-esque adolescent power fantasy as the baseline (as opposed to as a possibility within the ruleset) would have brought it closer and potentially made it more profitable.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeThe obvious solution would be to start off with 3,000 XP characters. People have been doing this in D&D for years when they don't want to start at level 1. An WFRP character can be rolled up and advanced in 30 minutes.

Quite, you can do it but it's not the default.  What Erik is trying to suggest, but struggling due to his bizarre inability to communicate politely, is that the game would have been closer to the wargame and commercially more successful had that been the default rather than an option.

The thing is, guys steeped in a game as you are often see more flexibility than some kid coming to it for the first time will.  I'm not saying that flexibility isn't there, but the kid will want to pick it up and play it as written and have fun.

Erik's changes, which if implemented would result in my never touching the game again, achieve that and as such make considerable commercial sense IMO.  The fact you can do it by spending 3000 xps of advances is ultimately pretty irrelevant, it's not the game's default setting.

Quote from: BalbinusHyped up the power level, more bigass magic as standard, more death metal vibe stuff, lots of things that you can do with the current ruleset but made as default rather than as a possibility.  Aim it squarely at 13 year olds.

I'm damn glad they didn't do it incidentally, the rpg and the wargame are different beasts and I'm very happy to see them remain that way, but I suspect going for Erik-esque adolescent power fantasy as the baseline (as opposed to as a possibility within the ruleset) would have brought it closer and potentially made it more profitable.

All that's really needed is a section on creating more experienced adventurers. Rewrite the character creation chapter to include pc's with 10, 20 and 30+ advances and you're pretty much there. High xp WFRP characters are fairly epic as it stands, anyway.

Quote from: DrewAll that's really needed is a section on creating more experienced adventurers. Rewrite the character creation chapter to include pc's with 10, 20 and 30+ advances and you're pretty much there. High xp WFRP characters are fairly epic as it stands, anyway.

It would help, but I suspect to really pull in the mouthbreathing 13 year old crowd (the thoughtful 13 year old crowd would run a mile at this) you need to go straight in for Erikist play, so the default would be hyperpowered, characters would reset healing all wounds including fatal between games, some kind of point buy element to ensure fairness between players, iconics, a whole bunch of changes we would all hate.

Also, I think people underestimate how much adolescents tend to play by the rules as written, seeing houseruling as a form of cheating, and they often look down on munchkins and powergamers while wanting to munchkin and powergame.  You need I think to really market well to dress it up, to make it all about the kewl powerz but pretend it's something more than that so they can kid themselves that they're doing something more than they are.

Hm, I seem to be reinventing some other company's marketing strategy here now...

Quote from: BalbinusIt would help, but I suspect to really pull in the mouthbreathing 13 year old crowd (the thoughtful 13 year old crowd would run a mile at this) you need to go straight in for Erikist play, so the default would be hyperpowered, characters would reset healing all wounds including fatal between games, some kind of point buy element to ensure fairness between players, iconics, a whole bunch of changes we would all hate.

Oddly enough I think they'd be more receptive to the D&D model-- weak beginning characters with the option of more powerful individuals with additional levels/expertise if the mood suits.

QuoteAlso, I think people underestimate how much adolescents tend to play by the rules as written, seeing houseruling as a form of cheating, and they often look down on munchkins and powergamers while wanting to munchkin and powergame.  You need I think to really market well to dress it up, to make it all about the kewl powerz but pretend it's something more than that so they can kid themselves that they're doing something more than they are.

Thinking back to my own experiences as a teen there's an undeniable truth here, but younger players seem to feel more comfortable earning their powers rather than starting out with them by default. The gamesmanship angle- and the opportunity for progressive improvement it affords -can't be overstated in terms of importance. It's exactly the same model as adopted by MMO's and the like.

QuoteHm, I seem to be reinventing some other company's marketing strategy here now...

There's no shame in that. Speculating on how GW could be doing things differently was part of the original point of the thread.

Good points on the powerup model Drew, D&D uses it and I would be nervous at criticising anything central to the D&D play model as being bad design or unappealing to kids, if D&D does something then it would take someone foolhardier than I am to argue it doesn't work for adolescent newbies.

Oh, to protect me from the hypersensitive out there, yes I do think D&D is excellent for adolescent newbies, that doesn't mean I think it's only excellent for them.  Like Coca-Cola, it's good for people of all ages.

Quote from: BalbinusGood points on the powerup model Drew, D&D uses it and I would be nervous at criticising anything central to the D&D play model as being bad design or unappealing to kids, if D&D does something then it would take someone foolhardier than I am to argue it doesn't work for adolescent newbies.

Yeah, there's some pretty obvious correlations between a character growing in power and the player growing up. That it happens so much more quickly in-game than in life is a huge part of the appeal, I suspect.

QuoteOh, to protect me from the hypersensitive out there, yes I do think D&D is excellent for adolescent newbies, that doesn't mean I think it's only excellent for them.  Like Coca-Cola, it's good for people of all ages.

Agreed. D&D is an excellent game.

Quote from: BalbinusIt would help, but I suspect to really pull in the mouthbreathing 13 year old crowd (the thoughtful 13 year old crowd would run a mile at this) you need to go straight in for Erikist play, so the default would be hyperpowered, characters would reset healing all wounds including fatal between games, some kind of point buy element to ensure fairness between players, iconics, a whole bunch of changes we would all hate.

Also, I think people underestimate how much adolescents tend to play by the rules as written, seeing houseruling as a form of cheating, and they often look down on munchkins and powergamers while wanting to munchkin and powergame.  You need I think to really market well to dress it up, to make it all about the kewl powerz but pretend it's something more than that so they can kid themselves that they're doing something more than they are.

Hm, I seem to be reinventing some other company's marketing strategy here now...

I may be entirely out of touch with the '13 year old boy' demographic, but somehow I don't think they're going to be very interested in PnP RPGs to begin with. Things were different when we were kids. There weren't any alternatives to red box D&D, so PnP roleplaying was the next step after we outgrew Star Wars action figures. Nowadays there are computer games, CCGs and clicky toys, all of which are more accessible and visually stimulating than RPGs.

Nowadays, I don't think you're going to capture PnP RPG gamers until they reach, say, the 16-18 bracket. And by that time, most of them are looking for something that will set them apart from the younger kids, whilst still allowing them to kill imaginary monsters.

As you noted, I'm biased by my close attachment to classic WFRP. However, I can't help but think that alienating the existing WFRP fanbase with the vague hope of converting 13 year old boys into roleplayers could have easily been tantamount to financial suicide for BI. If they really wanted to attract the pre-teen demographic, they'd have been wiser to re-release AHQ with a slightly more roleplay focused ruleset.

Edit: I do agree with the previous comments that space should have been allotted in the core WFRP rulebook to provide guidelines for starting games at higher power levels.

Herr Arnulfe, what did you make of the second edition generally?  I'm interested in what a WFRP grognard made of it and if you thought it an improvement or not?

Quote from: BalbinusHerr Arnulfe, what did you make of the second edition generally?  I'm interested in what a WFRP grognard made of it and if you thought it an improvement or not?

Two steps forward and one step backwards. After the playtest, I spent a few months waffling over whether to switch from v1. The biggest hurdle was coming to grips with the new skill system, which significantly lowered the overall competence of PCs. In v1, even the lowliest Beggar had a reasonable chance of success at a variety of tasks (through Standard Tests). However, the skill/talent split and universal resolution systems are good, and I managed to houserule skill proficiencies without mangling the basic mechanic, so this is no longer an issue for me.

I'm lukewarm on the idea of balanced races/careers, but I can understand why it was done, considering the new skill system.

My other major reservation concerned the handling of non-combat skills. Even when I started playing WFRP at age 15, a major appeal was the attention given to non-combat skills like Performance, Construct, Bribery etc. I was, in truth, still looking for an excuse to kill monsters, but the v1 rules seemed to actually care about my Entertainer's unique abilities. This created a sense of verisimilitude in the gameworld, and made killing monsters even more enjoyable. In v2, the non-combat stuff seemed more like an afterthought. So I was a bit reticent after seeing only the WFRP corebook, but BI has since demonstrated their interest in fleshing out other aspects of the setting through supplements.

As a miniatures gamer, I enjoy most aspects of the new combat system. I do find myself getting bored with protracted die-rolling in combat (maybe spoiled by computer games?) but WFRP isn't about back-to-back combats anyways, so it's not a big deal.

Hmm, what else. The new magic system is pretty good and is better suited to the setting. Magic might be too cheap, XP-wise, but v1 magic was too expensive so overall it's an improvement.

I'd have liked to see the monster profiles given a bit more attention in terms of adapting them to an RPG, insead of simply translating their WFB stats, but the extra background entries in the Bestiary are good and useful.

The 'missing link' in WFRP has always been mass combat and linking the game with WFB. There should either be a narrative combat system, or else a solid conversion mechanic to WFB (or both). Also some guidance on how to merge the two scales in terms of PC storylines. But I've winged it many times in the past incorporating WFB armies into sessions, so it's not a huge obstacle.

Overall I'm pleased. The game went nearly 20 years without a new edition so a few hiccups had to be expected. If/when BI does a v3, I'm sure many of the problems will be ironed out.

Quote from: DrewAgreed. D&D is an excellent game.

But also like Coca-Cola, Too much will make certain parts of your anatomy rot,

Quote from: pathfinderapBut also like Coca-Cola, Too much will make certain parts of your anatomy rot,

Too much of anything will make certain parts of you rot.