Quote from: jrientsAre you saying that Mr. Pondsmith is only interested in selling his product to people who have done the research?  Otherwise, I don't understand this argument you are making.  I expect core books to stand on their own and not need supplemental preliminary material to understand.

It does stand up on its own. Its great anime inspired technofantasy with some interesting musing on the nature of cyberpunk. It's filled with great ideas and cool big guns and whatnot.

Its a piss poor low fantasy conservative Shadowrunning game. The complaints were basically that it wasn't low fantasy conservative Shadowrunning game (or a generic cyberpunk toolkit). And he'd said that it wasn't a low fantasy cyberpunk game. It was VERY much in keeping with the later cyberpunk (firestorm shockwave/stormfront)/cybergeneration stuff, but STUPID PEOPLE kept claiming it came out the the blue because it wasn't just like their heavily houseruled campaign they had built up over twenty years without ever seeing anything except the core 2020 rulebook (or, I should point out, the pre release material that explained in some detail what the book was inteneded to be).

You'll note that this is a different position from my comments on GW - GW is big, professional and interested in selling stuff people will buy, Mr. Pondsmith is basically a hobbyist producing shit he thinks is cool - more people might have liked it if it was non-imaginative low fantasy conservative cyberpunk, but the dude had no interest in producing same.

If people could fucking figure out which is which things would go a lot smoother. Y'know - stop expecting GW to act like hobbyists or hobbyists to act like GW.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYou'll note that this is a different position from my comments on GW - GW is big, professional and interested in selling stuff people will buy, Mr. Pondsmith is basically a hobbyist producing shit he thinks is cool - more people might have liked it if it was non-imaginative low fantasy conservative cyberpunk, but the dude had no interest in producing same.

But your basic message remains the same (as always): "stupid, unimaginative, low-fantasy gamers are ruining your fun."

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeBut your basic message remains the same (as always): "stupid, unimaginative, low-fantasy gamers are ruining your fun."

Surely he can't be saying that AND praising GW?

- Q

Erik: Not being a major corporation, but being a 'hobbiest' does not excuse him from putting out a shoddy product.  In fact, you are somewhat disingenious for suggesting that it does, given that Mr. Pondsmith (or Uncle Mike to the fans...) has a long and distinguished history of putting out quality product and innovative games.

You can disagree with me and anyone you like about the coolness of the setting until you are blue in the face.  That doesn't, however, begin to address the fact that the book itself... as a product, as a set of rules, was utter shit.

Likewise, saying that GW makes barrels of money every year does not mean they aren't slowly losing ground in the market place or that their models are hideously overpriced. Just because someone is a fan does not automatically mean they are talking out of their ass about business either. Many gamers, particularly the crowd you address on line are well educated and knowledgeable outside of their hobby.  

There is a world of difference between saying 'Space marines should have Str 8 bolters for every model' fanspeak and 'Games workshop is overcharging for their models and I won't be buying them anymore... and this is a trend I see that is going to hurt their business over the long term'.

One is fan wankery, the other is a reasoned position. Right or wrong, it is reasoned and reasonable. You, for reasons best known to you, however, treat all such observations not only as fan wankery but also as a personal attack.  

If it wasn't so much fun to punch your buttons I'd probably IL you. Well, that and my aversion to walking around with blinders on. Warts like you make humanity all the more facinating.

Quote from: QuireSurely he can't be saying that AND praising GW?

According to Erik, WFRP would be more successful if the default PC was a griffon-riding beefcake mage with an oversized magical weapon. But much to Erik's dismay, the old v1 codgers at Strike-to-Stun are curbing GW's creative agenda by insisting on playing pig farmers and rat catchers.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfepig farmers and rat catchers.

I would totally buy those armies!

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI would totally buy those armies!

The Bretonnian army's got lots of mucky, toothless peasants. Some very nice models.

Erik has built an exaggerated dichotomy between the Warhammer IP and WFRP by pointing to the most extreme elements of their respective poles, ignoring everything in between, and blaming the Old Guard of WFRP for his own failure to find players.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeAccording to Erik, WFRP would be more successful if the default PC was a griffon-riding beefcake mage with an oversized magical weapon. But much to Erik's dismay, the old v1 codgers at Strike-to-Stun are curbing GW's creative agenda by insisting on playing pig farmers and rat catchers.

Well yes - DnD, Exalted, Games Workshop, World of Warcraft, 300, Frank Miller in general and a whole bunch of other computer games suggest I'm right. I think they are crazy not to realise this. You look up mainstream in the dictionary and there is Games Workshop staring back at you.

Do you seriously think otherwise?

Comeon. Be honest. Real world now, not the fantasy of Strike to Stun where people don't Really like GW, or their novels, or their models, etc.

It selfish, apart from anything else. People love this shit. They really do. But miserable old men on the internet would rather they didn't, and won't shut up and let them.

Quoteand blaming the Old Guard of WFRP for his own failure to find players.

Actually, the thing is that out in meatspace games don't act like people wished they did on the internet. You make dick jokes and break shit. Thats what roleplaying is, more or less. Theres some other stuff but breaking shit is the core.

What people really need is material on breaking shit, or ideally breaking shit with an overtone of story and roleplaying.

But, because of stupid delusional fucks instead they produce stuff that simply isn't going to work well for most of the groups I've played in.

You are gonna get players who want to break shit, and GMs who think that breaking shit is badwrongfun.

This is stupid. Far better to take a long, hard look at what people want from games ESPECIALLY from the ubermainstream GW.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI would totally buy those armies!

For instance, no other fucker would. In the real world.

Erik is right about WFRP.

GW artwork (40k especially) is all about testosterone laden brit-fascism and violence porn.

WFRP is about...rat-catchers and Cthulhoid entities called Zahnarzt (german for dentist).

There is a severe disconnect, which you can see in the disconnect between players of the respective franchise.

Now, for us RPG folks, WFRP is terrific. but it is so, in spite of being set in the GW Universe, not because of.

Quote from: Erik BoielleFor instance, no other fucker would. In the real world.

So you're saying no one plays Empire?  Or Brettonia?

I don't recall that being the case at my FLGS . . .

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell yes - DnD, Exalted, Games Workshop, World of Warcraft, 300, Frank Miller in general and a whole bunch of other computer games suggest I'm right. I think they are crazy not to realise this. You look up mainstream in the dictionary and there is Games Workshop staring back at you.

Do you seriously think otherwise?

Comeon. Be serious. Real world now, not the fantasy of Strike to Stun where people don't Really like GW, or their novels, or their models, etc.

I believe the last time you trolled StS it was discovered that the majority of posters over there do (or have) played WFB and follow the current fluff. If you think the anti-GW crowd at StS has any meaningful impact on WFRP development, you're just plain wrong. Your quixotic crusade is based on lies and self-justification.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWhat people really need is material on breaking shit, or ideally breaking shit with an overtone of story and roleplaying.

But, because of stupid delusional fucks instead they produce stuff that simply isn't going to work well for most of the groups I've played in.

Of course, this might speak more about the groups you play in than it does about the flaws you perceive in the game. The fact that you regard WFRP (especially v2) as de-emphasizing combat only shows that you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Quote from: SettembriniThere is a severe disconnect, which you can see in the disconnect between players of the respective franchise.

Now, for us RPG folks, WFRP is terrific. but it is so, in spite of being set in the GW Universe, not because of.

WFB takes place on the battlefields of the Warhammer world. WFRP takes place (mostly) in the towns, cities and forests. You don't see hordes of Bloodletters running rampant through towns on a regular basis.

It's sort of like the difference between playing a modern military wargame and a modern detective RPG. They're both set in the same world but you won't be encountering tanks and fighter jets in your detective game.

Quote from: Erik BoielleActually, the thing is that out in meatspace games don't act like people wished they did on the internet. You make dick jokes and break shit. Thats what roleplaying is, more or less. Theres some other stuff but breaking shit is the core.

What people really need is material on breaking shit, or ideally breaking shit with an overtone of story and roleplaying.

But, because of stupid delusional fucks instead they produce stuff that simply isn't going to work well for most of the groups I've played in.

You are gonna get players who want to break shit, and GMs who think that breaking shit is badwrongfun.

This is stupid. Far better to take a long, hard look at what people want from games ESPECIALLY from the ubermainstream GW.

Wow.  I must have an entirely wrong impression of WFRP.  Until now I thought that you wandered around the campaign map getting into trouble and killing stuff.  Fat Gregor lied to me!

I'm sure Erik is spot on re. GW vs. WHFRPG.

He is also a very boring person who boringly argues for the triumph of boredom. In short, a man without taste, utterly lacking in discrimination, and who seeks to fill that gaping void of refinement by repeated statements of the obvious. Not somebody a dandyist such my fine self would ever associate with.

Gnome apothecaries vs. pig farmers!