I want to open a discussion about games with a split between gameplay and narrative- specifically, in the way that most JRPGs handle it. To explain what I mean, here are some examples:

- Combat is in-depth with a good amount of attack types, spells, status effects, etc. Everything outside of combat is extremely barebones and is handled through the mind of the players (and DM).

- You can do things in combat that you can't do in the overworld, and vice versa. You can jump in the overworld. You cannot in combat unless as part of a special move. You can use a special move to make a supernova that wipes out an entire solar system in combat. You can't do that in the overworld, and in fact everything is fine. Your enemy is dead, though. Bending this a little for TTRPGs, you can use your spells out of combat to loosen up the pace of the story- in a loose way, though. You won't have to refer to any rules or roll if you wanted to shoot someone with a fireball, the DM simply decides if the target dies or lives. If you wanted to fly, you could do that and end up producing a story very different from most JRPGs. This wouldn't apply to all powers- for instance, you could heal/revive combatants damaged/killed in battle but not those killed by the narrative- those would need a narrative revival power.

- Progression in gameplay is entirely seperate from progression in the narrative. You can grind for 40,000 years and become level 1.35 x 40. Unless the (immortal) DM decides you can beat the main villain by giving you a power up, you can't land a single hit on him. This is because levels mean nothing in universe and don't actually exist. The same applies to stats, spells, etc- they are all highly abstracted. Progression in the narrative can tie to progression in gameplay- you eat your father who turned into a dragon and now have access to dragon spells. For a TTRPG, the level cap would have to be low.

This is all a preface to ask several questions.

- Is it possible for any game to have all three of these design goals and be enjoyable?
- Does any game hit all three points?
- Are these three points like antimatter to the idea of tabletop gaming?

I'm interested in it because I don't really like having to deal with rules for the overworld and combat, nor do I particularly enjoy putting enemies into tiers based on their levels and powers.

The way I can see this being picked over a more traditional game is in a forum/Discord play-by-post game where you have to adapt freeform players to a roleplaying game played with the brain rather than a computer. It would be the easiest for them- they can roleplay all as they like during the overworld (and even during combat), and then they can get boss battles over with during combat. To shorten combat further, one could use a bot to handle the dice rolls, damage calcuation, and stat calculation.

I don't have experience with any of these, but it makes me think of premises like the Dream Park RPG (1992) and XCrawl (2008) -- where the PCs jump into an artificial other environment for adventures. In both these, the PCs are like reality stars in semi-virtual reality where they have adventures. But there could also be some narrative development in the real world.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 21, 2022, 03:21:55 PM
This is all a preface to ask several questions.

- Is it possible for any game to have all three of these design goals and be enjoyable?
- Does any game hit all three points?
- Are these three points like antimatter to the idea of tabletop gaming?

I'm interested in it because I don't really like having to deal with rules for the overworld and combat, nor do I particularly enjoy putting enemies into tiers based on their levels and powers.

The way I can see this being picked over a more traditional game is in a forum/Discord play-by-post game where you have to adapt freeform players to a roleplaying game played with the brain rather than a computer. It would be the easiest for them- they can roleplay all as they like during the overworld (and even during combat), and then they can get boss battles over with during combat. To shorten combat further, one could use a bot to handle the dice rolls, damage calcuation, and stat calculation.

You just described like 75% of all traditional RPGs.

This is pretty much D&D at every step. Complex combat rules, good ol talking and an occasional stat roll for everything else.

Quote from: Omega on October 21, 2022, 04:21:16 PM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 21, 2022, 03:21:55 PM
This is all a preface to ask several questions.

- Is it possible for any game to have all three of these design goals and be enjoyable?
- Does any game hit all three points?
- Are these three points like antimatter to the idea of tabletop gaming?

I'm interested in it because I don't really like having to deal with rules for the overworld and combat, nor do I particularly enjoy putting enemies into tiers based on their levels and powers.

The way I can see this being picked over a more traditional game is in a forum/Discord play-by-post game where you have to adapt freeform players to a roleplaying game played with the brain rather than a computer. It would be the easiest for them- they can roleplay all as they like during the overworld (and even during combat), and then they can get boss battles over with during combat. To shorten combat further, one could use a bot to handle the dice rolls, damage calcuation, and stat calculation.

You just described like 75% of all traditional RPGs.

This is pretty much D&D at every step. Complex combat rules, good ol talking and an occasional stat roll for everything else.

D&D has rules outside combat like skill checks. Any spell usable in combat works the same way out of combat. Also the battlefield takes place in the overworld, and you can affect it with actions- also again gameplay progression is tied to narrative progression meaning that higher level characters are stronger characters in the lore.

The hypothetical game I'm talking of is like two games stapled together: a rules-heavy combat only system and a rules-lite narrative system that boils down to 'Hey, this is how you format doing Important Story Things'.

Bump.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 21, 2022, 10:12:07 PM

Quote from: Omega on October 21, 2022, 04:21:16 PM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 21, 2022, 03:21:55 PM
This is all a preface to ask several questions.

- Is it possible for any game to have all three of these design goals and be enjoyable?
- Does any game hit all three points?
- Are these three points like antimatter to the idea of tabletop gaming?

I'm interested in it because I don't really like having to deal with rules for the overworld and combat, nor do I particularly enjoy putting enemies into tiers based on their levels and powers.

The way I can see this being picked over a more traditional game is in a forum/Discord play-by-post game where you have to adapt freeform players to a roleplaying game played with the brain rather than a computer. It would be the easiest for them- they can roleplay all as they like during the overworld (and even during combat), and then they can get boss battles over with during combat. To shorten combat further, one could use a bot to handle the dice rolls, damage calcuation, and stat calculation.

You just described like 75% of all traditional RPGs.

This is pretty much D&D at every step. Complex combat rules, good ol talking and an occasional stat roll for everything else.

D&D has rules outside combat like skill checks. Any spell usable in combat works the same way out of combat. Also the battlefield takes place in the overworld, and you can affect it with actions- also again gameplay progression is tied to narrative progression meaning that higher level characters are stronger characters in the lore.

The hypothetical game I'm talking of is like two games stapled together: a rules-heavy combat only system and a rules-lite narrative system that boils down to 'Hey, this is how you format doing Important Story Things'.

I'd guess the reason you're not getting much answer could be boiled down to "why would anyone want that?"

Anyone who likes crunchy combat probably likes crunchier systems in general. Anyone who wants a rules-light narrative system for non-combat probably wants a rules-light narrative combat resolution system.

Stapling two essentially opposites together is going to end up with a result appealing to no one.

As to D&D being what you want... you need to look beyond the WotC-era material to something like 1e AD&D and you'll find something much closer to what you're looking for... it has no skill system and is quite rules-light outside of combat while, conversely the combat rules are so complex that almost no one plays them straight (ex. how many actually use the weapon vs. armor type modifiers?).

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 23, 2022, 10:54:19 PM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 21, 2022, 10:12:07 PM

Quote from: Omega on October 21, 2022, 04:21:16 PM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 21, 2022, 03:21:55 PM
This is all a preface to ask several questions.

- Is it possible for any game to have all three of these design goals and be enjoyable?
- Does any game hit all three points?
- Are these three points like antimatter to the idea of tabletop gaming?

I'm interested in it because I don't really like having to deal with rules for the overworld and combat, nor do I particularly enjoy putting enemies into tiers based on their levels and powers.

The way I can see this being picked over a more traditional game is in a forum/Discord play-by-post game where you have to adapt freeform players to a roleplaying game played with the brain rather than a computer. It would be the easiest for them- they can roleplay all as they like during the overworld (and even during combat), and then they can get boss battles over with during combat. To shorten combat further, one could use a bot to handle the dice rolls, damage calcuation, and stat calculation.

You just described like 75% of all traditional RPGs.

This is pretty much D&D at every step. Complex combat rules, good ol talking and an occasional stat roll for everything else.

D&D has rules outside combat like skill checks. Any spell usable in combat works the same way out of combat. Also the battlefield takes place in the overworld, and you can affect it with actions- also again gameplay progression is tied to narrative progression meaning that higher level characters are stronger characters in the lore.

The hypothetical game I'm talking of is like two games stapled together: a rules-heavy combat only system and a rules-lite narrative system that boils down to 'Hey, this is how you format doing Important Story Things'.

I'd guess the reason you're not getting much answer could be boiled down to "why would anyone want that?"

Anyone who likes crunchy combat probably likes crunchier systems in general. Anyone who wants a rules-light narrative system for non-combat probably wants a rules-light narrative combat resolution system.

Stapling two essentially opposites together is going to end up with a result appealing to no one.

As to D&D being what you want... you need to look beyond the WotC-era material to something like 1e AD&D and you'll find something much closer to what you're looking for... it has no skill system and is quite rules-light outside of combat while, conversely the combat rules are so complex that almost no one plays them straight (ex. how many actually use the weapon vs. armor type modifiers?).

Understandable. i suppose I am a weird man for wanting this sort of system. I have a friend of mine that likes 1e ADND, maybe I'll play that with her.

Sounds like a Win for both of you.

This would be possible if you introduce a narrative conceit such as "All battles take place inside of a virtual reality / pocket universe distinct from the outside world." Many videogames use this framing device.

4E generally does a good deal of what you're suggesting. It's one of the main critiques of it as a system, because combat is so detailed and involved, with so many powers and options, but almost none of that is useful outside of combat. You can light someone on fire with magic causing grievous wounds, but as soon as you want to light a cigar with your magic you're SOL.

Quote from: Zelen on October 24, 2022, 02:53:06 PM
This would be possible if you introduce a narrative conceit such as "All battles take place inside of a virtual reality / pocket universe distinct from the outside world." Many videogames use this framing device.

4E generally does a good deal of what you're suggesting. It's one of the main critiques of it as a system, because combat is so detailed and involved, with so many powers and options, but almost none of that is useful outside of combat. You can light someone on fire with magic causing grievous wounds, but as soon as you want to light a cigar with your magic you're SOL.

To be fair... that's ALL D&D magic. You can cause grievous wounds with Fireball, but you can't scale it down to lighting a cigar in any edition either. That's a completely separate spell; prestidigitation (which 4E also has and gives to the wizard). It also encourages you to re-fluff and get creative with spells as DMing advice... so if you wanted to use your firebolt spell in 4E to light a cigar, you probably could if your GM let you (just like you could light a cigar with fireball instead of filling a massive area with fire if your GM let you).

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 24, 2022, 04:30:17 PM

Quote from: Zelen on October 24, 2022, 02:53:06 PM
This would be possible if you introduce a narrative conceit such as "All battles take place inside of a virtual reality / pocket universe distinct from the outside world." Many videogames use this framing device.

4E generally does a good deal of what you're suggesting. It's one of the main critiques of it as a system, because combat is so detailed and involved, with so many powers and options, but almost none of that is useful outside of combat. You can light someone on fire with magic causing grievous wounds, but as soon as you want to light a cigar with your magic you're SOL.

To be fair... that's ALL D&D magic. You can cause grievous wounds with Fireball, but you can't scale it down to lighting a cigar in any edition either. That's a completely separate spell; prestidigitation (which 4E also has and gives to the wizard). It also encourages you to re-fluff and get creative with spells as DMing advice... so if you wanted to use your firebolt spell in 4E to light a cigar, you probably could if your GM let you (just like you could light a cigar with fireball instead of filling a massive area with fire if your GM let you).

While you're going to get some lines like this in hundreds/thousands of pages of books. Nevertheless 4E is clearly intended to be run mostly RAW. It's one of the fundamental motivating reasons why 4E is designed the way that it is.

Many spells and effects are very particular about what they can and can't do. For example, Druids can "shapeshift" into animals but you can't gain certain features of those animals (e.g. flight, darkvision, water-breathing) until later (if ever).

Either way, it's sort of a non-sequitur to the general ask here.

I mean cigar lighting is always a minor fluff effect. D&D has always erred on its magic being game oriented then improv oriented.

Dimensional door doesn't let you make a portal to a nearby lake to flood a room with water.

4e also has it's ritual system for "worldbuilding" spells.