Quote from: Benoist;422256Since when is this thread about "why this game should really have clicked with you, and since it didn't, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about?"

Since people got involved. Sigh.

Seanchai

So when is that Cthulutech WTF? thread going up - because I'd love to read that (not having read the book myself).

Quote from: jgants;422264So when is that Cthulutech WTF? thread going up - because I'd love to read that (not having read the book myself).

When is it? Right Now!


-Frank

Quote from: RPGPundit;422084It also makes absolutely incredible games more likely.  And I can tell you that every single campaign of Amber I've ever run has been absolutely incredible, even the bad ones.

The game does require a skilled GM.  Its boot camp for the absolutely the "elite force" of GMs. Just reading Amber will make you a better GM at any other game. Actually running it will make you an excellent GM at any other game. That's not a bug, its a fucking masterpiece.

RPGPundit

Every decent game in any system requires a skilled GM.  Amber seems also to require a certain gormless acceptance on the part of the other players.  I don't game with people who can't GM (some of them need a push and some practice, but people who aren't interested in GMing or have some sort of GMing oriented social dysfunction are politely invited to go elsewhere).  Amber does not work well for such a group, and from my experience is repulsive to people who do work well in such a group.  IHATETHERAILROAD[/i] and you can't get off the tracks in Amber.

Quote from: Professort Zoot;422360Every decent game in any system requires a skilled GM.  Amber seems also to require a certain gormless acceptance on the part of the other players.  I don't game with people who can't GM (some of them need a push and some practice, but people who aren't interested in GMing or have some sort of GMing oriented social dysfunction are politely invited to go elsewhere).  Amber does not work well for such a group, and from my experience is repulsive to people who do work well in such a group.  IHATETHERAILROAD[/i] and you can't get off the tracks in Amber.

Rarely do I get stunned by a comment on games .
WTF!!!!!
Amber is the most open, least railroad games I have ever GMed. The PCs can litterally wonder off into entire universes of their creation at will and do whatever they like. There are an almost unlimited number of options to deal with any issue.
But more than any of that the core of the game it's nugget if you will is that the GM just sets up the setting (in fact I even let my PCs create their own version of Amber) and then the players create all the plot, metaplot, deals, bargains, double crosses...
My Amber games have a core plot. If the Pcs fix it they get xp however each player also creates their own 3 plot aims that they get Xp for if they reach. Most of the time these sub-plots drive the game and I just get the fuck out of the way and run a few NPCs, more often than not NPCs that the players have themselves created either though play or in the chargen process.

If you think Amber is a railroad then well ... um actually I am speechless.

Quote from: jibbajibba;422415If you think Amber is a railroad then well ... um actually I am speechless.

I have also found that Amber lends itself to being hugely PC driven - Amberites are stereotypically driven by ambition so the game lends itself to the players being proactive. NPCs are usually "live on the field," yes, but the setup is so little focused on 'missions' or 'outside threats' that there is (even less so than in normal games) really no point in railroading.

Yeah, there's nothing more I can say about this guy's idiocy than "sheer nonsense".

RPGPundit

Quote from: Doctor Jest;420525I understand how it is supposed to be played (at least, I believe I do, from reading the examples of play). What I don't understand is why it bothers with a rule system for that kind of play. I don't see what the game rules actually add in value for the cost of the overhead. It seems a convoluted way to come around to the GM deciding if the player's efforts were enough to win or not.

I understand what you mean, though here's my how I look at the matter: the player GM relationship is one based on trust. the more that the results of Player's decisions depend upon GM caveat, the more trust is needed. Rules create a "trust buffer" if you will. A player in D&D, for example, will know that the rules and systems work a specific way and can rely on that to determine their success, and even have a method of disputing with GM's calls based on cimplementation of the rules. In other words, the more rules that are established, the more in control of their own character a player feels, as opposed to simply being at the mercy of a GM's story or whims. The problem I have with alot of Froge Narrativist games is that they try to solve one problem (lack of trust between GM and Players) with a solution that is contrary to the probelm: rules-light systems open to a lot of interpretation. Narrativist games think that leaving the interpretation up to the players will compensate for this imbalance, but instead it creates a story-game, which whil I don't think is badwrongfun as some do, is a situation that is directly opposed to player immersion.

Amber OTOH, does not redistribute the GM's responsibility of rules interpretation, but it does try to provide a rules light gaming enviornment with enough structure that players feel "in control" of their characters and their character's ability to affect the game world.

QuoteEither way, it doesn't "click" for me at all.

That's perfectly fine; same here. I generally in all ways prefer Everway for that style of gaming.

Quote from: jibbajibba;422415Rarely do I get stunned by a comment on games .
WTF!!!!!
Amber is the most open, least railroad games I have ever GMed. The PCs can litterally wonder off into entire universes of their creation at will and do whatever they like. There are an almost unlimited number of options to deal with any issue.
But more than any of that the core of the game it's nugget if you will is that the GM just sets up the setting (in fact I even let my PCs create their own version of Amber) and then the players create all the plot, metaplot, deals, bargains, double crosses...
My Amber games have a core plot. If the Pcs fix it they get xp however each player also creates their own 3 plot aims that they get Xp for if they reach. Most of the time these sub-plots drive the game and I just get the fuck out of the way and run a few NPCs, more often than not NPCs that the players have themselves created either though play or in the chargen process.

If you think Amber is a railroad then well ... um actually I am speechless.

But everything comes down to asking, "mother may I" since the mechanism is deterministic.  It's either, "No, you don't have that potential," "Yes, that's part of your character build," "No, unless you give daddy some sugar."  There's (and again I am sure that a good GM can overcome this, but probably can't overcome my prejudice) no sense of achieving things gradually or changing direction.  Also, if a character pulls a Corwin and goes off and creates Avalon and does not interact with Amber any more, it would seem to simply remove the character from play.

Not at all! There are two ways that could be handled.  Many GMs would bring the play to the character, and this might obviously make sense if the character is very tied up with affairs in Amber. Its suggested that perhaps Brand or Eric might have had something to do with Corwin's undoing in Avalon.

The second idea is to interpret that as meaning that PC wants to play in his shadow, and let him.  I've had players write fucking BOOKS of setting detail about their pet shadows (seriously, like 50-100 pages in some cases), and when a PC decides to stay in a far off shadow what I usually do is develop that shadow.  I trust that sooner or later, either the PC himself or the other PCs will end up dragging him back to Amber, but I'd be in no hurry to do that. What for? That's part of the awesomeness that is the Amber game.

RPGPundit

Usually the way it works, I find, is one PC comes to the 'hermit' PC and proposes an offer that's hard to resist. This strikes me as similar to the way the family works in the books.

Quote from: Cole;422939Usually the way it works, I find, is one PC comes to the 'hermit' PC and proposes an offer that's hard to resist. This strikes me as similar to the way the family works in the books.

Precisely my experience.

RPGPundit