Inspired by this recent thread (RPGs that will never have a 2nd edition) I ask:

What games need(ed) a 2nd edition? Note the past tense, We can include games that had a 1st edition, but are so long gone that there's probably no hope of them ever seeing another life. And just to make it more interesting, feel free to swap out 2nd edition for "new edition." Here are my top 3:

7th Sea: A lot of people had a problem with their fantasy Europe, but IMO realistic geography means nothing in Swashbuckling Land. My problem was the system. It was pretty clunky, with attributes way more important than skills. The magic system was all over the place. Has the second edition fixed anything?

Fading Suns: I have the 2nd edition, with the Victory Point System and useless introvert stats. I think Redbrick tried to redo it but it got axed, and then FASA did a 2nd revised? Don't know if they fixed any of the problems. I'd like them to scrap whatever has gone before and just port the thing over to an existing system. Savage Worlds would be my choice.

D20 Modern: Would love to see WOTC retool this for 5th Edition D&D. I'm sure someone has done this by now, right? Is it any good?

For D20 Modern, the closest comparison I can think of would be Ultramodern5. It uses 5th edition D&D as it's baseline and covers a variety of modern to sci-fi genres.

Fading Suns I never played, so others will have to weigh in on that one.

7th Sea 2e was a hot mess. The setting itself is actually pretty good if you don't mind it being exactly Europe with the serial numbers filed off. The rules though. Holy fuck the rules are goddamned awful! The best summary of all that is wrong with it that I've come across is here.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1102037For D20 Modern, the closest comparison I can think of would be Ultramodern5. It uses 5th edition D&D as it's baseline and covers a variety of modern to sci-fi genres.

Fading Suns I never played, so others will have to weigh in on that one.

7th Sea 2e was a hot mess. The setting itself is actually pretty good if you don't mind it being exactly Europe with the serial numbers filed off. The rules though. Holy fuck the rules are goddamned awful! The best summary of all that is wrong with it that I've come across is here.

All I had to see in that comment was "John Wick", and the rest was redundant. Accurate, but redundant.

Stars Without Number. The original version had decending AC, which is silly.

I'd love to see a GURPS 5th edition, though if it happens it's likely still a decade (or several) away. The current edition (4th) has been seeing some recent success with 3rd party licenses and several kickstarters along with continued releases by SJG (partly thanks to the reassigned manpower after being freed up from Pyramid Magazine), but at this point there have been enough of the cracks in the hull filled / wallpapered over with supplementary materials that I would really appreciate a consolidated edition with all the big / most effective changes implemented in the Basic Set. As much as I appreciate the breadth of material available for 4th edition, it gets annoying trying to remember which random article or buried sidebar has the tool I vaguely remember exists and that I want for a given campaign. At the very least a new Compendium for 4th ed. would be a huge boon.

As it stands, SJG doesn't see the demand for a new edition and neither do most GURPS players; which I understand, given SJG's rather anemic RPG-centric resources and the fact that the current edition is still perfectly serviceable as well as there being such a strong/extensive existing catalog. I appreciate the iterative design philosophy behind GURPS and I think that because of it, each edition's lifespan is increased pretty dramatically (minor nitpicks notwithstanding). I will never understand why people purchase "treadmill" RPGs designed to be re-released under an entirely revised design every 4-8 years, I vastly prefer incremental improvement (otherwise just make it a different game line, please).

Quote from: Antiquation!;1102047I'd love to see a GURPS 5th edition, though if it happens it's likely still a decade (or several) away. The current edition (4th) has been seeing some recent success with 3rd party licenses and several kickstarters along with continued releases by SJG (partly thanks to the reassigned manpower after being freed up from Pyramid Magazine), but at this point there have been enough of the cracks in the hull filled / wallpapered over with supplementary materials that I would really appreciate a consolidated edition with all the big / most effective changes implemented in the Basic Set. As much as I appreciate the breadth of material available for 4th edition, it gets annoying trying to remember which random article or buried sidebar has the tool I vaguely remember exists and that I want for a given campaign. At the very least a new Compendium for 4th ed. would be a huge boon.

As it stands, SJG doesn't see the demand for a new edition and neither do most GURPS players; which I understand, given SJG's rather anemic RPG-centric resources and the fact that the current edition is still perfectly serviceable as well as there being such a strong/extensive existing catalog. I appreciate the iterative design philosophy behind GURPS and I think that because of it, each edition's lifespan is increased pretty dramatically (minor nitpicks notwithstanding). I will never understand why people purchase "treadmill" RPGs designed to be re-released under an entirely revised design every 4-8 years, I vastly prefer incremental improvement (otherwise just make it a different game line, please).

I would love to see a GURPS 5e that was not called GURPS.

As in the idea of making a Generic Universal Roleplaying System that covers everything from "a squad of cops hunting down a serial killer to Dinosaur Wizards fighting intergalactic entropy in flying space mechs that transform" just seems appealing to me.

I think to really improve upon that idea, you have to take a step back and think about how things could be redone to be cleaner and inherently less crunchy while covering things in the same detail.

I think you end up with something closer to a Fudge/GURPS hybrid. Like maybe the core book doesn't have a hundred skills with specific default values, but it could have detailed instructions on how to make GURPS like skills and maybe have some core skills just about every campaign will use and then genre skills that just about every campaign in that genre will use.

Quote from: [BFading Suns:[/B] I have the 2nd edition, with the Victory Point System and useless introvert stats. I think Redbrick tried to redo it but it got axed, and then FASA did a 2nd revised? Don't know if they fixed any of the problems. I'd like them to scrap whatever has gone before and just port the thing over to an existing system. Savage Worlds would be my choice.

Someone actually did convert Fading Suns to Savage Worlds quite some time ago. It was a fan conversion but I think it was hosted at savageheroes.com, which seems to be gone now. There was also a FATE conversion somewhere as well.

EDIT: Also Redbrick DID do a 2nd ed revised but it didn't go to far now FASA has a 3rd edition.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1102037The best summary of all that is wrong with it that I've come across is here.

Wick is a bit of self-congratulatory a prat isn't he?

Mekton: The original Mekton was pretty disorganized and had everything crammed in together. It desperately needed Mekton II to come out. Mekton Zeta was good as well, but not needed as much as was Mekton II for that game line.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1102060I think to really improve upon that idea, you have to take a step back and think about how things could be redone to be cleaner and inherently less crunchy while covering things in the same detail.

Indeed, I agree there are several key areas in GURPS which could desperately use streamlining (and in some cases have been, addressed by the various aforementioned magazine articles or etc.; one easy example would be the massively easier/more table-friendly Slam rules integrated into the Dungeon Fantasy RPG which are now more-or-less accepted unilaterally by the GURPS community as being the "actual" slam rules; plus things like logarithmic strength scaling and re-scaled damage in general, armor rules patches, the default Magic being an utter relic of 3rd edition and being supplanted by a multitude of better variant magic systems since then, blah blah). There's enough information out there on GURPS' current shortcomings that being re-built from the ground up with those tweaks and patches would be hugely beneficial and IMO worthy of a new edition. It's a hard enough game to get into already without some of the most vital bits being scattered across x pages/books/etc.

On the other hand I definitely agree GURPS needs to keep its detail while still being smoothed out, optimized and polished as much as possible. As much as I love Fudge I do think they occupy different niches on the design spectrum, though GURPS could learn some things from Fudge especially with things like Scale rules which is one place where GURPS has the greatest tendency to fall on its face.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1102060Like maybe the core book doesn't have a hundred skills with specific default values, but it could have detailed instructions on how to make GURPS like skills and maybe have some core skills just about every campaign will use and then genre skills that just about every campaign in that genre will use.

There's some value there I think and there are many who agree the skill list is excessive (some people play using only Bang! skills), although IMO GURPS is so much of a toolkit already I think it might be crippled by becoming even more of one. If there's one complaint I have about Fudge it's the "just Fudge it!" motto and the fact that the core book does practically nothing for you in terms of legwork. I would also not want various disparate self-contained systems or skill lists scattered across multiple genre books such as the beast that 3rd edition turned into.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1102069There's some value there I think and there are many who agree the skill list is excessive (some people play using only Bang! skills), although IMO GURPS is so much of a toolkit already I think it might be crippled by becoming even more of one. If there's one complaint I have about Fudge it's the "just Fudge it!" motto and the fact that the core book does practically nothing for you in terms of legwork. I would also not want various disparate self-contained systems or skill lists scattered across multiple genre books such as the beast that 3rd edition turned into.

I think you get one book to sell the concept and that's where I see a GURPS 5e struggling. It would either need to cover all of 4e in one book or be backwards compatible.

Now if you don't call it GURPS then it just needs to stand on its own legs. I imagine something like Fudge 10th anniversary edition but with 3d6 as the core mechanic and instructions on how to make the system you need with many worked examples (working out examples is both instructional and gives things to steal). I personally find the prospect of running Fudge way easier than running GURPS, so I don't mind the idea of meta-toolkit (a toolkit to make toolkits).

Business model-wise, you make a free PDF version, then a premium version with rules instructions for things like mechs or a worked magic items creation system. Then you release campaign guides and supplements that lean on only the free core rules (as in steal the Stars Without Number business model).

Quote from: Rhedyn;1102080Now if you don't call it GURPS then it just needs to stand on its own legs. I imagine something like Fudge 10th anniversary edition but with 3d6 as the core mechanic and instructions on how to make the system you need with many worked examples (working out examples is both instructional and gives things to steal). I personally find the prospect of running Fudge way easier than running GURPS, so I don't mind the idea of meta-toolkit (a toolkit to make toolkits).

Hm, yeah, I could see that. I wouldn't mind a meta-toolkit either, but a dearth of worked examples is a must-have for me (main reason I still haven't given EABA v2 a proper go; I like being able to grab something and go without having to work it all out myself). Taking a GURPS spinoff in the general direction of Fudge seems like a sound idea though.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1102080Business model-wise, you make a free PDF version, then a premium version with rules instructions for things like mechs or a worked magic items creation system. Then you release campaign guides and supplements that lean on only the free core rules (as in steal the Stars Without Number business model).

I would love a modern hyperlinked PDF version of such a hypothetical game. I think with a lighter chassis like a Fudge-ized SWN core it would be much easier to quickly create a variety of solid supplements, too.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;11020377th Sea 2e was a hot mess. The setting itself is actually pretty good if you don't mind it being exactly Europe with the serial numbers filed off. The rules though. Holy fuck the rules are goddamned awful! The best summary of all that is wrong with it that I've come across is here.

That's a shame. I love the setting. Sounds like another one that would do well with Savage Worlds.

Quote from: Alamar;1102062Also Redbrick DID do a 2nd ed revised but it didn't go to far now FASA has a 3rd edition.

Right, I remember now. The original Redbrick designer wanted to redo the entire system, and the prototype was well-received, but he was abruptly let go. Redbrick quickly released a 2E Revised that really didn't change enough to justify a purchase.

1996 (1st edition)
1999 (2nd edition)
2001 (d20 edition)
2007 (2nd edition Revised)



(3rd edition)

Quote from: Antiquation!;1102047I'd love to see a GURPS 5th edition, though if it happens it's likely still a decade (or several) away.

I almost mentioned Gurps. 4E is 15 years old now (2004). By comparison, there have been three editions of D&D (almost) in that time:

2003 (D&D v3.5)
2008 (D&D 4th edition)
2014 (D&D 5th edition)

and if the pattern continues, we'll see D&D 6E before Gurps 5E.