Quote from: RPGPunditWhat does make it anti-humanity are when you get these characters that are superior in every way to human beings just by virtue of some kind of birthright, and humans are just there to be stomped on and shat upon.

The only characters in Exalted with a birthright are the Dragonblooded. Even then their individual Exaltation is neither guaranteed or even likely.

QuoteIts not about whether you start as godlike beings or not. Its about certain geeks wanting to pretend that they aren't human because of deep-rooted issues with their own humanity, and engaging in escapism about their own fantasies of how they should be entitled to be special and to rule over others just because they're a special fucking snowflake, and not have to work hard for those things like the rest of us do.

Maybe that's true for some people, but it's not an attitude I've encountered. Probably because I game with adults.

Quote from: RPGPunditFrom what little I've read and understood about Exalted, that doesn't seem to be true.  There's shitloads of exalteds out there who were nobodies until they suddenly became the Great Pasty-Faced Master Who Blows Up Cities.

Hence that famous quip in someone's .sig about it being really embarrassing having your entire army being massacred by a 14 year old farmgirl with a hoe who's just exalted and declared herself the Invincible Spear Princess or some shit like that...

So basically, you're lying to us now.

The above pretty much proves that it's you who are guilty of misrepresentation.

I suggest that before you start accusing me of lying you go back and thoroughly read the books, rather than relying on random hearsay to bolster your point. You've made it plain that you haven't even taken the time to investigate or comprehend what you're criticizing, and as such cast yourself in the role of wilfully ignorant reactionary.

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's not what we're equating here, dipshit.

We're equating unearned power and an attitude where the PCs are constantly reminded by the game designer that they're better than mere humanity with anti-humanism.

Like I've said numerous times, Celestial Exaltations seek out those who are powerful and capable in their own right. But you've already admitted to having read and understood "little" of the book anyway, so it's hardly surprising.

QuoteNext you're going to try to claim that WW isn't anti-science, anti-christian and anti-western-civilization either.

Nope. Next I'm going to call you an ignorant tosser.

QuoteNot to derail the thread again, but um... sort of. There's a kind of protestant determinism in Rand's philosophy, by which if you are one of the "special people" who are willing to be "self-made men" you will automatically become a "person of importance" and obviously won't remain among the rabble.

Its that uniquely american-protestant idea that if you're poor its ALWAYS because you deserve it, and probably because some cosmic force is punishing you for being a bad person, thus poor people aren't just poor or lazy, they're EVIL.

Calvin was  Frenchman who migrated to England, Darwin was English, as were the Puritans.  

The attitude may have come over to US shores at a very early period, but the roots of that attitude lie squarely in England.

Quote from: DrewThe above pretty much proves that it's you who are guilty of misrepresentation.

I suggest that before you start accusing me of lying you go back and thoroughly read the books, rather than relying on random hearsay to bolster your point. You've made it plain that you haven't even taken the time to investigate or comprehend what you're criticizing, and as such cast yourself in the role of wilfully ignorant reactionary.

So you are claiming now, unequivocably, that ALL Exalted are people who have already done great things in the world and thus become Exalted, and the whole idea of a "14-year old farm girl getting exalted and kicking the shit out of an army" just cannot happen in the game, unless said farmgirl say, cured cancer or something?

Is that what you're saying, bitch? Because everything I've ever seen on RPG.net and my own reading (years ago) of the Exalted main book seem to disagree completely with that claim. People weren't chosen to be Exalteds because they'd done some great service to humanity or some great thing, they were chosen just because they were "meant for" it, they were special snowflakes, in other words...

RPGPundit

Quote from: J ArcaneCalvin was  Frenchman who migrated to England, Darwin was English, as were the Puritans.  

The attitude may have come over to US shores at a very early period, but the roots of that attitude lie squarely in England.

Yes, the roots of it are there, and some touches of it still exist in the CoE, all tied into (and restrained by) the British class system and its inherent sense of oligarchy (the whole British Lord saying "I just don't understand why anyone would choose to be born poor" thing).  However, it took being taken over to the states, and thus freed from the limits of the class system, to really create that unbridled sense of utter hate and blame for the poor that only American Protestantism is capable of considering "christian".


RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, the roots of it are there, and some touches of it still exist in the CoE, all tied into (and restrained by) the British class system and its inherent sense of oligarchy (the whole British Lord saying "I just don't understand why anyone would choose to be born poor" thing).  However, it took being taken over to the states, and thus freed from the limits of the class system, to really create that unbridled sense of utter hate and blame for the poor that only American Protestantism is capable of considering "christian".


RPGPundit

I do agree that it took America to take that Puritan ethic and evolve it into the forms of modernday libertarian and capitalistic attitudes toward humanity.

And that in fairness to England, they tried to drive the damn Puritans off.

Quote from: RPGPundit...everything I've ever seen on RPG.net and my own reading (years ago) of the Exalted main book seem to disagree completely with that claim. People weren't chosen to be Exalteds because they'd done some great service to humanity or some great thing, they were chosen just because they were "meant for" it, they were special snowflakes, in other words...

The 1st edition was a little wishy-washy on the matter.  In some places the book would mention that shards selected those mortals who were already making themselves great, while in other, more prominent, places the book stated that most mortals who became Exalted did so during their teenage years.  Now, in the former case I'd make the observation that supernatural forces were rather annoyingly stealing humanity's thunder by not letting truly great mortals achieve their natural potential.  In the latter case, I'd point out that supernatural forces were pandering to the game's intended demographic. In both cases, I'd observe that White Wolf has had problems with uneven editing.

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Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe 1st edition was a little wishy-washy on the matter.  In some places the book would mention that shards selected those mortals who were already making themselves great, while in other, more prominent, places the book stated that most mortals who became Exalted did so during their teenage years.

Can you point to where it says that, please? Canonically there's only one Solar I can think of who Exalted as a teen.

It's true that the game has refined the preconditions of Exaltation, though. Mind you, the 1st edition corebook was ambiguous on a whole host of shit.

The idea that having great power is due to some kind of blood relation seems to have some hardwired appeal within the human psyche. What I find even more troubling though, is so is the belief that these people have more of a RIGHT to this power than those that have to earn or take it.

I don't know why this is, but I do know that games like Exalted are not the cause of such behavior, but a result of it.

Quote from: DrewCan you point to where it says that, please? Canonically there's only one Solar I can think of who Exalted as a teen.

If it's really of interest, yes, I'll pull out my copy later this evening and see if I can find the passage.   Mind you, it wasn't a canon character that I was referring to -- there was a specific passage somewhere that was discussing who becomes Exalted.  I clearly recall it, because I was well past my teens when I read it, and I thought, "Huhn, this game is apparently not intended to appeal to someone of my age."

By the way, Drew, I don't mean to attack your defense of Exalted here.  I'm in a bit of an awkward position.  On one hand, I agree with Pundit's assessment that White Wolf games ignore or even undermine the greatness of human potential in favor of the grace of the supernatural.  On the other hand, I feel he's treating you like a total cock and ignoring the real beauty of roleplaying games -- no matter how they were written, you can play them to your own taste.

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I find being human dull, and morality restrictive in a fictional world. Savage species made my day. Book of Vile Darkness less so (except for the infinite 1337 of the cancer mage).

Now, the idea of not-human meaning better or entitled to more or better? Nah. The right to act at mortals' expense? Who ever said I gave a shit about "right?"

I can be an inept human being who washes dishes in a pizzaria any time I like (actually, whether I like it or not). I go out on the weekends with friends wanting to roll dice, kick ass, break rules, and suffer no consequence that can't be handled by more of the same. Naturally, I still like there to be risks like death or war or what have you, but... I wanna *do* shit.

Quote from: beejazzI can be an inept human being who washes dishes in a pizzaria any time I like (actually, whether I like it or not). I go out on the weekends with friends wanting to roll dice, kick ass, break rules, and suffer no consequence that can't be handled by more of the same. Naturally, I still like there to be risks like death or war or what have you, but... I wanna *do* shit.

The question at hand is, how does your character go about stopping being a dishwasher at the pizzaria?  Does he throw down his towl and apron, and stride forth into the unknown with only his wits and a pair of trusty .45s strapped to his hips?  Or does a weird and obscure mystical force come down from on high, touch him on the forehead, forever turning him into something...other?  Does it really matter?

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Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIf it's really of interest, yes, I'll pull out my copy later this evening and see if I can find the passage.   Mind you, it wasn't a canon character that I was referring to -- there was a specific passage somewhere that was discussing who becomes Exalted.  I clearly recall it, because I was well past my teens when I read it, and I thought, "Huhn, this game is apparently not intended to appeal to someone of my age."

The books state that most Solars tend to Exalt between their late teens and middle age. Dace is a good example of a more mature person getting their Second Breath. Admiral Sand is another. The Bull of the North had gone out into the snow to die (as was the custom of the elderly of his tribe) before being Exalted.

QuoteBy the way, Drew, I don't mean to attack your defense of Exalted here.  I'm in a bit of an awkward position.  On one hand, I agree with Pundit's assessment that White Wolf games ignore or even undermine the greatness of human potential in favor of the grace of the supernatural.  On the other hand, I feel he's treating you like a total cock and ignoring the real beauty of roleplaying games -- no matter how they were written, you can play them to your own taste.

No worries. To be honest I don't even really feel like I'm defending the game, just pointing out some of the more glaring tidbits of misinformation, conflation and general dickery that seems to attend certain attitudes towards gaming in general and Exalted in particular.

I play Exalted as fantasy superheroes. I have no more problem with it than I would playing a game featuring the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man or Hulk. The line has many, many faults and flaws, but "anti-humanism" isn't one of them.

Calling me a liar when he had fuck all to back his point up with was just the icing on the cake.

Quote from: DrewThe books state that most Solars tend to Exalt between their late teens and middle age. Dace is a good example of a more mature person getting their Second Breath.

Is this from the 1st edition?  I may be mis-recollecting, then.  Also, yes, I always found Dace my touchstone to the game. :deflated:

QuoteI play Exalted as fantasy superheroes. I have no more problem with it than I would playing a game featuring the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man or Hulk.

Now, this is a funny turn to the topic.  I mentioned it earlier in the thread: I prefer Batman and Green Arrow to Superman or Captain America.  Batman and Green Arrow reached a point in their lives where they decided to become heroes and proceeded to perfect themselves to the best of their ability.  Superman and Captain America both had an outside event happen to them, and then had to decide how to use the resultant abilities to become a hero.  Both are valid hero stories -- one's heroism results from his force of will, while the other's heroism results from wisely harnessing great power and resisting temptation.  I prefer the boot-strap effect, though.  Maybe it's because I'm older and grouchier, and I feel like there shouldn't be any shortcuts to greatness.

One thing that Exalted did well, in my opinion, was pointing out that your shard only gives you great power -- it doesn't make you a hero.  The Solar Exalted really do have the potential to become monsters if the temptation overwhelms them.  In that sense, the game steps away from the precipice of "anti-humanism."

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