Wow, and here I thought I'd be the one having to defend the somewhat indefensible Ms. Rand.   I recall quite plainly that in the self created Eden of the post apocalyse end of Atlas Shrugged all the 'cool elite' people.. which, as I stated earlier, included some housewives and other 'nobodies', they were quite happy to be farming their own food and making their own stuff.  Happy to be productive and especially happy that no one was trying to take their stuff and give it to lazy bastards that do nothing but argue on the internet all day.... :what:

Quote from: SpikeWow, and here I thought I'd be the one having to defend the somewhat indefensible Ms. Rand.   I recall quite plainly that in the self created Eden of the post apocalyse end of Atlas Shrugged all the 'cool elite' people.. which, as I stated earlier, included some housewives and other 'nobodies', they were quite happy to be farming their own food and making their own stuff.  Happy to be productive and especially happy that no one was trying to take their stuff and give it to lazy bastards that do nothing but argue on the internet all day.... :what:

And how many real life Objectivists do you know who would be happy to do that shit?

The point is most people use Objectivism in real life as a way to hate the poor, and nothing more.  And they seem to forget that all their wonderful "great accomplishments of genius" are only possible by standing on the fucking throat of the mexican worker who cleans your fucking toilet. That, far from being a "parasite" out to steal your grandeur, or thunder, or bodily fluids, the working class is the foundation that makes society function and makes individuals capable of having the opportunity to do something other than till the soil (ie. think up all these great thoughts).

RPGPundit

Can we please not call "objectivism" a philosophy? If I share some thoughts over 800+ pages with y'all, that doesn't mean I'm a philosopher. It just means I found a publisher.

Quote from: jrientsActually, I was offering up the Vagabond as evidence that Rifts did not have the same ubermenschian trappings as Vampire and such.

Ah, okay, failure to communicate etc.

Still, I'd wager a guess that for every Vagabond in Rifts you'd find a subservient human in a Vampire games (those ghoul-friends really creep me out).
Apart from the campy, overblown nature of superhumans in Rifts I think the sheer diversity cancels out any delusions of grandeur. Whereas most WoD campaigns center around one particular bunch of Born Rulers. If anyone would run a combined Mage/Vampire/Werewolf campaign, things would look different.

Especially if you add Smurfs/M.A.S.K/Transformers/Immortals/KISS in there. Or the Inhumanoids! Decompose!

Pundit: I know almost no one in real life that identifies themselves with a particular philosophy, be it Utilitarianism, Objectivism or Masturbationism.  Not one that I can think of.

That does make it hard for me to objectively identify what the self proclaimed followers of a philosphy actually act like, though of course we should be leery of equating the followers with the creator.  Epicurius, as I recall, ate mostly gruel and drank heavily watered wine, yet his followers are depicted as fat men with food spilling down their chests from gluttony (I exaggerate, I think...).

I do find it interesting how you seem to hate Ayn Rand so passionately, given that she always framed her philosophy as Individualism vs. Collectivism... and we all know how you hate collectivism.


Me? I follow Spikism.  I don't have time to learn to live anyone elses ideals.

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd how many real life Objectivists do you know who would be happy to do that shit?

The point is most people use Objectivism in real life as a way to hate the poor, and nothing more.  And they seem to forget that all their wonderful "great accomplishments of genius" are only possible by standing on the fucking throat of the mexican worker who cleans your fucking toilet. That, far from being a "parasite" out to steal your grandeur, or thunder, or bodily fluids, the working class is the foundation that makes society function and makes individuals capable of having the opportunity to do something other than till the soil (ie. think up all these great thoughts).

"There you go, bringing class into it again!"

"Well, that's what its all about, 'innit?"

I do not "hate" poor people. I'm not exactly dripping in rubies myself. What I DO hate is people who use others as an excuse for their condition. I could do and be soooo much more than I am, but to be honest, I'm too lazy to do much more than I am, currently. Dosn't mean "the Man!" is holding me back - I'm holding myself back. I don't spit at people because they have big houses and BMWs. And many of those "Mexicans" whose throat I'm apparently stepping on make a damn sight more money than *I* do, but they bust their ass on a daily basis to do it. Try roofing sometime! And I don't begrudge them that - they're following the right prescription to success. Work hard. Its not rocket science. I just wish more of them would do it legally.

So, how's that make me such a bad Randite?

Quote from: SpikeI do find it interesting how you seem to hate Ayn Rand so passionately, given that she always framed her philosophy as Individualism vs. Collectivism... and we all know how you hate collectivism.

I despise collectivism.  It doesn't mean I agree with any of the other (often monstrous) things that Ayn Rand says.

And, in fact, I hate Objectivists because they almost universally provide the easy stereotype for collectivists out there to denigrate anyone who dares to disagree with collectivism: "You don't think we should have social workers telling you how much sugar you're allowed to eat?! My goddess you must be one of those Objectivists who'd like for people to starve to death in gutters!"

RPGPundit

Sosthenes:  I would expect that the Vagabond would be an unpopular class in Rifts circles, but I personally am always drawn to Everyman hero types and appreciate its inclusion.

Spike:  Do you know of any Objectivist communes where they till the soil like the heroes of the book?  If not, why not?

Objectivism doesn't suggest that "hard work" is the way to success. Objectivism suggests that the mexican roofer should be forced to live off whatever paltry sum his masters choose to give him unless he should prove ruthless and smart enough to become a sacred ENTREPENEUR himself.

This is why I can't stand Objectivism: If Objectivism is true, then Ron Popeil is god's chosen people.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jrientsSosthenes:  I would expect that the Vagabond would be an unpopular class in Rifts circles, but I personally am always drawn to Everyman hero types and appreciate its inclusion.

Spike:  Do you know of any Objectivist communes where they till the soil like the heroes of the book?  If not, why not?

Same thing I just told the pundit: I don't know ANYONE personally who so identifies with a particular philosophy as to guide their lives by it. Relgions? Sure, and those do tend towards philosophical natures in their way... but I don't know any 'Objectivists' any more than I know 'Untilitarist' or 'Kanteans'.

I suspect you don't find those sorts of people outside of universities.

You'd have to ask the koala, who has just identified himself as such, because I wouldn't know.

Man, I really gotta work on my communication skills! :confused:

Quote from: RPGPunditObjectivism doesn't suggest that "hard work" is the way to success. Objectivism suggests that the mexican roofer should be forced to live off whatever paltry sum his masters choose to give him unless he should prove ruthless and smart enough to become a sacred ENTREPENEUR himself.

This is why I can't stand Objectivism: If Objectivism is true, then Ron Popeil is god's chosen people.

Dude. That's not MY flavor of Objectivism. Sounds to me more like you confuse the Objectivist Overlord with the more common Marxian Capitalist Swine. Get your oppressors straight, son!

If Objectivism dosn't suggest that hard work is the key to success, where does that Overlord get his pennies to lavish on his wage-slaves? Magic? Wishful thinking?

And Ron Popiel created more wealth and jobs than most roofing companies, so why ya gotta bag on the man?

Quote from: SpikeMan, I really gotta work on my communication skills! :confused:

No, I need to work on my reading skills.  I missed your post at the bottom of the last page.

Quote from: SosthenesEspecially if you add Smurfs

WITH PLASMA GUNS!!!111!

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWITH PLASMA GUNS!!!111!

Yeah, guys, we have a name for that game.  It's called Rifts.

Quote from: WarthurIf you like, Vampire or Exalted is an oligarchy, D&D is a meritocracy. In D&D, you get power if you work for it, and we as gamers choose to focus on those characters who do have the skill and gumption to go and work for it. In Vampire or Exalted, you're part of a special self-selected elite.

In Vampire that's definitely the case. In Exalted less so. Solar Exaltations seek out those who have or are on the cusp of achieving mortal greatness. The shard carries with it wisps of memory of a former host, but it is not self aware in any conventional sense. It's more a case of attraction to extant ability and potential rather than self-selection.